The Intensified God

[aron]

Have had long-time issues with the last of the "Processed God" theory, the part about intensification, and wanted to see what others think.

1. How can God be intensified? To me that makes no sense whatever.

2. How can God's intensification be rooted to church degradation? It seems we made God, by our failure, instead of God making us. How can the essential defining aspect of God's existence - "intensified" - be dependent upon our collective status or situation in time? Again, this simply makes no sense. Any common notion of what "God" is supposed to mean in our minds doesn't match the story behind the "Processed God" idea, that of being connected to our failures.

Now, action is different. In a moment in time, "God sent His Only Begotten Son" seems to make sense, as an answer to the failure of humanity, who were made at one moment in time, in His likeness. But not "The Processed God became Intensified to overcome Church Degradation". To me it looks like we made God what God is, not the opposite.

3. There were seven flames burning before the throne in Exodus. "See that you make all things according to the vision (or pattern) that you received on the Holy Mountain". The seven flames of fire were there for, what, two millennia almost, in Israelite history? Then when the apostle John sees them on Patmos, their existence was supposed to be the answer for church degradation? Such an interpretation probably gives a wee bit too much importance to the interpreter, and just a wee bit lacking for the Eternal One.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Have had long-time issues with the last of the "Processed God" theory, the part about intensification, and wanted to see what others think.

1. How can God be intensified? To me that makes no sense whatever.

2. How can God's intensification be rooted to church degradation? It seems we made God, by our failure, instead of God making us. How can the essential defining aspect of God's existence - "intensified" - be dependent upon our collective status or situation in time? Again, this simply makes no sense. Any common notion of what "God" is supposed to mean in our minds doesn't match the story behind the "Processed God" idea, that of being connected to our failures.

I think this originated from an Elders' Training Lee gave on "Incarnation, Inclusion, and Intensification." Here is a short section from the book:

I hope that all the co-workers will see the three stages, the three sections, of Christ: incarnation—the stage of Christ in the flesh; inclusion—the stage of Christ as the life-giving Spirit; and intensification—the stage of Christ as the sevenfold intensified life-giving Spirit. These three stages are the three sections of Christ's history. This means that Christ's history is divided into the section of His incarnation, the section of His inclusion, and the section of His intensification. Therefore, we emphasize these three words—incarnation, inclusion, and intensification—and stress the facts that incarnation produces redeemed people, that inclusion produces the churches, and that intensification produces the overcomers to build up the Body, which consummates in the New Jerusalem as the unique goal of God's economy. This is the revelation in the New Testament.

To be "intensified" by the 7-fold intensified Spirit of God means you become an overcomer.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I hope that all the co-workers will see the three stages, the three sections, of Christ: incarnation—the stage of Christ in the flesh; inclusion—the stage of Christ as the life-giving Spirit; and intensification—the stage of Christ as the sevenfold intensified life-giving Spirit. These three stages are the three sections of Christ's history. This means that Christ's history is divided into the section of His incarnation, the section of His inclusion, and the section of His intensification. Therefore, we emphasize these three words—incarnation, inclusion, and intensification.....

No wonder there are however many linear feet of the collected works of Lee......all of that could have easily been condensed into one short sentence rather than repeating the exact same thing over and over.......

On aron's point, it is laughable now to even think that the degradation of the church was something God had to "adjust" His person to even overcome. Does Lee think that God in His own right, pre-intensification, was unable to overcome the pitiful degradation of the church? He can do whatever He wants! He is the thing that holds the entire universe together! God is God, which is max intensity simply in His existence. He Himself in His person doesn't need to be "intensified", this implies the church's degradation is remotely powerful enough to worry or defeat God!

[JJ]

Lee had coined the term “seven fold intensified Spirit” and the same explanation for it “to combat church degradation and to produce overcomers” by the time he gave the “Life Study of Revelation” “Training” in the 1970’s. And, local church saints had accepted it as true. Later Lee reiterated it during his “Consummation of the New Testament”, “Crystallization of” “Messages”, and “Elders trainings”. Again we see Lee was adding words we don’t see in the Bible and as aron pointed out missing the pattern of the seven lamps on the lamp stand throughout the Old Testament. He also was exhorting us to do and be something “intensified” scripture never exhorts us to do or be.

Revelation warns us that all the plagues written in it are reserved for those who add to or take away from it. Best to listen to what The Spirit actually says to the churches, give praise & blessing, honor, and glory to God for what is plainly stated.

[Cal]

Lee lifted "seven-fold Spirit" right out Revelation 1:4 in the Amplified Bible. It's right there in black and white.

4 John to the seven assemblies (churches) that are in Asia: May grace (God's unmerited favor) be granted to you and spiritual peace (the peace of Christ's kingdom) from Him Who is and Who was and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits [the sevenfold Holy Spirit 4d] before His throne, [Isa. 11:2.]

According to note 4d in the Amplified Bible, the teaching of the seven-fold Spirit originated with Richard of St. Victor, as cited by Richard C. Trench in his book Synonyms of the New Testament (1860).

Richard of St. Victor was a Medieval Scottish philosopher and theologian and one of the most influential religious thinkers of his time. He died in 1173.

Richard C. Trench was an Anglican archbishop, author and poet.

Lee held a conference on "The Visions of Ezekiel" in the 1960s, I believe. There he touted the "seven-fold intensified Spirit for the completion of the age" as one of his great revelations. I don't recall him giving either Richard or the Amplified Bible any credit.

I can follow that the seven Spirits are for the completion of the age, because seven is the Biblical number for completion and perfection in time. But the "intensified" part is total speculation. Why would God need to be intensified? Isn't he intense enough as he is?

The only intensification I ever saw come from this was the Lee faithful's intensified frenzy about Spirit intensifying and age completing. As far as I can tell nothing came from it other that some yelling and jumping around, which eventually fizzled. Who in the LR still talks about the subject, let alone experiences it?

Seven Spirits possibly refers to Isaiah 11:2, which the Amplified also references. It describes seven (seven-fold) aspects of the Spirit.

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. Isaiah 11:2

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Lee had coined the term “seven fold intensified Spirit” and the same explanation for it “to combat church degradation and to produce overcomers” by the time he gave the “Life Study of Revelation” “Training” in the 1970’s. And, local church saints had accepted it as true. Later Lee reiterated it during his “Consummation of the New Testament”, “Crystallization of” “Messages”, and “Elders trainings”. Again we see Lee was adding words we don’t see in the Bible and as aron pointed out missing the pattern of the seven lamps on the lamp stand throughout the Old Testament. He also was exhorting us to do and be something “intensified” scripture never exhorts us to do or be.

Revelation warns us that all the plagues written in it are reserved for those who add to or take away from it. Best to listen to what The Spirit actually says to the churches, give praise & blessing, honor, and glory to God for what is plainly stated.

Suppose Revelation 1:4 had said, "Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, which is the intensification of His Processed Triune Self to overcome the degradation of the church..."? Then Witness Lee would have a pretty good case. But it doesn't say that and his case is weak, based only on his logic and for his need for it to be so. And his logic has a lot going against it.

So the faithful are left with, "WL's the Seer of the Divine Revelation, and Deputy God, with God's oracle, so if he said it's so, then it's really so". And in the LC, that's the basis of understanding God. Not scripture but that someone has said it's so. LC members have fallen for the classic confidence game. The MOTA wanted them to believe that what he said is so. (Look at how many times WL said, "We must see..." and "We need to appreciate..." he was imposing his will on yours).

Today, Living Stream Ministry recruiters will enter a college campus and find you, the uncertain sophomore, and they'll need you to believe. You mistake their earnestness for sincerity. So you go along, not because their message of a Processed and Intensified God is true or even plausibly defensible, but because someone wants, even desperately needs, you to believe it's true. Their happiness and collective existence depend on it. If you become their "co-dependent", you'll enter into a dysfunctional relationship based on a mistaken belief that you can satisfy their unmet needs.

[Cal]

If the Spirit must be intensified seven times to overcome the degradation of the Church, how many times must he be intensified to overcome the degradation of "the Lord's Recovery?"

Just wonderin'.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

God is God, which is max intensity simply in His existence.

God is by definition not intensifiable.

James(1:17) wrote that there's no "variableness" with God, no shadow cast by turning. God is the same always, the Eternal One. God spoke and the universe came into being - isn't that intense enough? God has to be sevenfold (!) intensified to get us through our Christian day? We may have lacks but God does not.

The Bible text didn't give us the sevenfold intensified God, but Witness Lee did (probably borrowed, as most of his ideas were, without attribution). He perhaps felt an exegetical need - how to reconcile "There is one Spirit" of Ephesians 4:4 with the seven spirits seen by John in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6?

Rather than exegetical formulae ("one Spirit, intensified"), I look to scripture. A text that WL cavalierly dismissed as "fallen human concepts" says that "The voice of the LORD is powerful/the voice of the LORD is full of majesty/the voice of the LORD breaks the cedars of Lebanon... the voice of the LORD cleaves out flames of fire" (Psa 29:4-7 RecV). The KJV says "The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire" and the YLT says "The voice of the LORD is hewing out fiery flames".

There's one Person walking in the midst of the seven flames burning before God. The LORD has one voice (Logos, Word) but this voice cleaves out multiple flames of fire (Psa 29:7). God has now spoken to us in the Son (Heb 1:1), who clearly has multiple spiritual venues for action in the NT.

"You will see heavens open and the angels of God [note the plural] ascending and descending on the Son of Man".

"I also am a man under authority, and I have servants [plural] under me..."

"You will see the Son of Man coming in glory with the glory of the Father and the holy angels [plural]"

He's called LORD of Hosts for a reason...

On the day of Pentecost, when the remaining disciples were praying, and tongues of fire rested upon them, how many spirits were there? 120 spirits, or one Spirit? I daresay it was the same One Spirit of Ephesians 4:4. Multiple simultaneous expressions of the One Spirit of God don't create a need for exegetical cartwheels. "There is one Spirit" is not threatened by Acts 2:3, nor by Revelation 1:4.

There were seven flames of fire burning before the mercy seat all through the OT, and everybody knew it, including the writers and readers of the NT. It's not that mysterious or esoteric. We don't need to re-invent God to reconcile scripture. We rather do it to pacify our imaginations.

Revelation 8:2 "Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them..." Are we sure this isn't really one angel, sevenfold intensified? Why not? (Besides the fact that it makes no sense). Or the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 - it's not one church sevenfold intensified? Or the four living creatures - not just one creature "fourfold"?? No, because it makes no sense to us, so we (rightly) reject it. Then how did WL's teaching nullify our God-given common sense?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Then how did WL's teaching nullify our God-given common sense?

We were suckers for it. We wanted it, needed it, went for it ... and discovered to late : what were we thinking? Oh. We weren't thinkin'. If we were we wouldn't have done it. Check your thinkin' at the door. It's not wanted here.

[aron]

Isaiah 40:25,26

"'To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?' says the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

God's great power and mighty strength doesn't need intensification and I daresay that Isaiah would laugh if one suggested otherwise. Now we may need intensification in our living and experience to overcome the dark age. I do. But WL taught that God needed to be processed to consummate as the intensified life - giving spirit to overcome church degradation.

The "became" and "processed" and "intensification" and "consummated" all indicate transformation or qualitative change. I'm not sure what scripturally-based understanding of the Judeo-Christian God jibes with that. If any.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Rather than exegetical formulae ("one Spirit, intensified"), I look to scripture. A text that WL cavalierly dismissed as "fallen human concepts" says that "The voice of the LORD is powerful/the voice of the LORD is full of majesty/the voice of the LORD breaks the cedars of Lebanon... the voice of the LORD cleaves out flames of fire" (Psa 29:4-7 RecV). The KJV says "The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire" and the YLT says "The voice of the LORD is hewing out fiery flames"

Another scripture says, "He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flaming fire." All the writers and readers of the NT would have had such texts at their disposal to create common, shared meaning, and there is no sense given that they dismissed them as fallen human concepts, only useful in showing what not to think. On the contrary. The presence of multiple flames, or spirits, before God's throne in no wise obviates the "one spirit" of Ephesians 4:4.

Revelation 1:1 says that God made his revelation known to his servant John by sending his angel, but does that single angel of God somehow conflict with the multitude of angels known? Of course not. So why does the presence of seven spirits create an exegetical crisis requiring such conceptual cartwheels as an intensified God?

[JJ]

Great points guys.

Some neat visual aids and commentary re Tabernacle as type of Jesus, including artist rendering of lamp stand are in this link:
http://www.emmanuelenid.org/index.ph...g-close-to-god
No Lee wasn’t the only one who saw connection to Christ and the Church. Just Google Exodus Lampstand and select Images and look how many articles there are.
The picture of the high priest lighting the lamp stand is very similar to what John saw the glorified Jesus doing and helped me relate even better to aron’s opening post.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

God is God, which is max intensity simply in His existence. He Himself in His person doesn't need to be "intensified", this implies the church's degradation is remotely powerful enough to worry or defeat God!

To me, this is the biggest point to be made regarding God being "intensified". God cannot be more intense than he already has been for eternity. As mere mortals, we can only have God's intensity partially revealed to us, and only in finite, measured "doses". This is why the children of Israel were not allowed to go up to the mountain. This is why only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies, and only once a year on the Day of Atonement. This is why "no man can see me and live".

Maybe John's vision of "the seven Spirits who are before his throne" was like the Lord Jesus being transfigured on the mountain before Peter, James and John. They got a glimpse of the glory of the Lord Jesus. The Lord did not become "intensified", but rather his glory was partially revealed to them, and only for a brief moment. Peter later related this experience in his 2nd epistle: we were eyewitnesses of his majesty(2 Pet 1:16)

The bottom line is that this teaching of Witness Lee (God being intensified), like so man of his teachings, while ostensibly novel and insightful, is really just self-serving and mere conjecture (aka: an uneducated guess) Search the scriptures, and the teachings and commentaries of legitimate, recognized, orthodox Christian teachers, scholars and writers throughout history - you will be hard pressed to find any of them who have interpreted "the seven Spirits" as "God being intensified to produce overcomers".
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

you will be hard pressed to find any of them who have interpreted "the seven Spirits" as "God being intensified to produce overcomers".
-

But don't forget that, Lee coming up with new and novel, bombastic, and even iconoclastic, notions -- such as an intensified God -- serves rather to merchandise those in his movement. That's warned about also in 2 Peter -- 2:3

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The bottom line is that this teaching of Witness Lee (God being intensified), like so man of his teachings, while ostensibly novel and insightful, is really just self-serving and mere conjecture (aka: an uneducated guess) Search the scriptures, and the teachings and commentaries of legitimate, recognized, orthodox Christian teachers, scholars and writers throughout history - you will be hard pressed to find any of them who have interpreted "the seven Spirits" as "God being intensified to produce overcomers".
-

Lee had to be innovative to solidify his status as a modern-day seer. That he pushed against orthodoxy was considered by him and his followers a strength. Whether he was actually correct was secondary to his "gift" for wringing novel teachings from the Bible and elsewhere.

The problem is... what if he was wrong? Who vets him? How is his teaching validated? What is the fail-safe? How does one protect himself against any of his mistakes?

If you are a member of the LR there is no good answer to any of these questions. Basically you've bet the farm that Lee was right about everything. If Lee goes down in flames, so do you.

You might just need an intensified God to save you from that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lee had to be innovative to solidify his status as a modern-day seer. That he pushed against orthodoxy was considered by him and his followers a strength. Whether he was actually correct was secondary to his "gift" for wringing novel teachings from the Bible and elsewhere.

The problem is... what if he was wrong? Who vets him? How is his teaching validated? What is the fail-safe? How does one protect himself against any of his mistakes?

If you are a member of the LR there is no good answer to any of these questions. Basically you've bet the farm that Lee was right about everything. If Lee goes down in flames, so do you.

You might just need an intensified God to save you from that.

Amen to all that. But given Lee's history methinks it was all for the merchandising ; providing new abstract toys to continue to bewitch money from all the pockets.

But where do they get more new merch, new toys-in-the-sky -- or from somewhere -- now? The Blended's aren't up to it. They're just Lee Parrots. Their coffers must be suffering. But they're still merchandising ... using Lee's old worn out rehashed "new deep profound insights."

And brother Igzy, questioning isn't allowed in the LR. I don't ever remember a question and answer segment after Lee's speakings. Lee wasn't to be questioned.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Have had long-time issues with the last of the "Processed God" theory, the part about intensification, and wanted to see what others think.

1. How can God be intensified? To me that makes no sense whatever.

2. How can God's intensification be rooted to church degradation? It seems we made God, by our failure, instead of God making us. How can the essential defining aspect of God's existence - "intensified" - be dependent upon our collective status or situation in time? Again, this simply makes no sense. Any common notion of what "God" is supposed to mean in our minds doesn't match the story behind the "Processed God" idea, that of being connected to our failures.

Now, action is different. In a moment in time, "God sent His Only Begotten Son" seems to make sense, as an answer to the failure of humanity, who were made at one moment in time, in His likeness. But not "The Processed God became Intensified to overcome Church Degradation". To me it looks like we made God what God is, not the opposite.

3. There were seven flames burning before the throne in Exodus. "See that you make all things according to the vision (or pattern) that you received on the Holy Mountain". The seven flames of fire were there for, what, two millennia almost, in Israelite history? Then when the apostle John sees them on Patmos, their existence was supposed to be the answer for church degradation? Such an interpretation probably gives a wee bit too much importance to the interpreter, and just a wee bit lacking for the Eternal One.

Methinks those having trouble reaching God are the ones that want an intensified God, to make up for their lack.

In short, Lee and Co. weren't 'getting there,' so they cooked up an intensified God.

I see it as psychological warfare on the minds of the faithful, keeping the faithful, by tell them that because of them, God has become intensified ... or God becomes more God than He already is.

But from where I'm sitting now, I'm having problems with holding back a big : Bahahahahahaha !!! While at the same time feeling sorry for them. Cuz they're living in a fantasy world.