Charismania, truncation, and understanding

[aron]

I was listening to a Christian musician go over and over a verse from the Bible. It was in a "Praise and Worship" setting, and the musician, a keyboardist/vocalist with a band, kept repeating the same phrase about 25 times. But they would add things to "instensify" the verse and make the crowd hand-wave and arm-wave and stay engaged.

It made me think about the LC practice of pray-reading, taking one phrase and going over and over again, building "emotional context" or subjectivity into the word, but losing context in meaning, as the original sentence was once part of a narrative, with a beginning and an ending. In other words, there was a story there, once; now there was just a verse in a vacuum, filled with whatever imaginary things one might choose to put.

In this case, a phrase could be removed from context, with a few "special words" over-stressed, and suddenly a "hidden" meaning pops out! Suddenly we are ecstatic because "God has revealed His heart" to us. There's certainly a place for "Cry out and Shout, O inhabitants of Zion/For Great is the Holy One of Israel in the Midst of Thee"; but there's also context. There was once a meaning to the words, which conveyed understanding to the original intended audience. And, listening to that Christian musician, and the crowd focusing on a verse or two, and ignoring the rest of the chapter, much less the book, made me think that there was potentially a loss of meaning, a loss of understanding, associated with this kind of practice.

We've already lost so much by the intervening years; why lose even more by truncating the text into bites that we then re-configure according to our subjective and sensory leadings? Soberness is also called for, along with ecstasy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

It made me think about the LC practice of pray-reading, taking one phrase and going over and over again, building "emotional context" or subjectivity into the word, but losing context in meaning, as the original sentence was once part of a narrative, with a beginning and an ending. In other words, there was a story there, once; now there was just a verse in a vacuum, filled with whatever imaginary things one might choose to put.

Perhaps coming from Ohio, I have mixed feelings here. Christians have long taken a few words out of context and applied them to every situation in life -- e.g. "no weapon formed against us will prosper" -- but each of us can name dozens more.

As far as repetitive vocal sayings go, my golden rule is simple -- Is your heart and spirit connected to your mouth? As such, repetition is not bad, but when there is an internal disconnect, then the warnings of Jesus about vain babblings ought to be heeded. In this regard, context does help us, as aron has said, like lanes on the road to direct our prayers in the right direction.

The LSM system plays on emotional highs based on the lung's "volume control." The size of the audience also exaggerated the "high." The louder the "amens," the more fuel was added. It's amazing what people will say or do when given a camera and a microphone. Remember that famous line about 15 minutes of fame?

LSM really went off the rails during the semi-annual trainings of the "new way" era. WL, purportedly a perfected spiritual man, allowed all sorts of revelry in the name of God. I remember the rising star JJ going off with contemptuous ridicule while speaking on the conclusion of the Acts 15 council. WL loved to be extolled even at the expense of the Apostles.

Bottom line for me is our fallen nature loves vain glory. Remember to always connect your mouth with your spirit! If you can't scream Bible phrases -- aka pray-reading -- in private, then don't do it in public.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

context does help us, like lanes on the road to direct our prayers in the right direction.

Yes and the more context the better. Context brings understanding, and understanding brings changed behaviour, and changed behaviour brings transformation.

"Study, to show thyself approved"; the LC has "study" as part of PSRP, but study what? LSM theology? More verses out of context?

My point has been, there's a narrative there in the text. Repetition of itself will neither lead us further into or away from the narrative. It's a tool like any other.

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM really went off the rails during the semi-annual trainings of the "new way" era. WL, purportedly a perfected spiritual man, allowed all sorts of revelry in the name of God. I remember the rising star JJ going off with contemptuous ridicule while speaking on the conclusion of the Acts 15 council. WL loved to be extolled even at the expense of the Apostles..

I remember this as well. Bad theology, loudly screamed, doesn't become good theology.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes and the more context the better. Context brings understanding, and understanding brings changed behaviour, and changed behaviour brings transformation.

"Study, to show thyself approved"; the LC has "study" as part of PSRP, but study what? LSM theology? More verses out of context?

My point has been, there's a narrative there in the text. Repetition of itself will neither lead us further into or away from the narrative. It's a tool like any other.
I remember this as well. Bad theology, loudly screamed, doesn't become good theology.

Aron, since leaving the Lee ministry, and coming to the awareness of my need to know more of Gods' word and proper doctrine, I have found many believers who 'rightly divide' scripture....in who it is speaking to....Gods' chosen race, or everyone else. What is your opinion on this point? Actually I would like everybodies opinion. Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask. No doubt it is. Forgive me! Kinda typical of me, huh? Lol please move this question if need be. I do feel this goes to the understanding without context question.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Aron, since leaving the Lee ministry, and coming to the awareness of my need to know more of Gods' word and proper doctrine, I have found many believers who 'rightly divide' scripture....in who it is speaking to....Gods' chosen race, or everyone else. What is your opinion on this point? Actually I would like everybodies opinion. Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask. No doubt it is. Forgive me! Kinda typical of me, huh? Lol please move this question if need be. I do feel this goes to the understanding without context question.

Yes it goes to the context question. The Bible gives its own context. It is there I find the answers.

One of the most puzzling verses to me was, "And the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it." Who are the nations or Revelation 21? The RecV does the strangest thing, with the footnote saying, This is people, who are "justified ones" who are "unregenerated... but live forever". Not, mind you, the believers in Jesus. But "justified unbelievers"....??? What? Justified unbelievers who live forever?

I think that John, a devout Jew, albeit a Jesus-believing one, rather meant "Jesus-believing gentiles" by this. Because notice its pair: "the kings of the earth bring their glory" to it. The greek word for "nations" is 'ethnoi' which means gentiles, or non-Jews.

Jesus is A) King of the Jews; and B) Saviour of the World (nations, or 'ethnoi'). He is both. The King of the Jews is to rule the world. See Psalm 2, for example. Why do the 'ethnoi' roar in tumult against JHWH and His King? (v.1,2) and "I (JHWH) will give you (Messiah/King) the 'ethnoi' as your inheritance" (v.8). The "prudent kings" in Psalm 2:10 are the "kings who bring their glory into the Holy City" in Revelation 21:24. They tremble before the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Redeeming Lamb of God. See Psalm 2:11, as well, for confirmation.

In OT type, the 'nations' would come to the Light of Messiah. This is in many prophetic utterances. You can look them up. The pre-figure is Solomon; if you notice, the kings of the earth bring their glory to Jerusalem when he reigns. (see, viz, 1 Kings 4; 1 Kings 10; 2 Chron 9). This was the high point of the Jewish nation, which would be matched and even surpassed by the Promised King.

The first fulfillment is found in the birth/infancy gospel story of the 'magi' from the nations who bring valuables from afar. Then, the Greeks "wish to see Jesus" before he dies (he demurs). Then, Paul's the apostle anointed to "preach him among the 'ethnoi' (Gk)" (Gal 1:16), and he comes back bringing gifts from the ethnoi to Jerusalem. He says he's hurrying back to bring these gifts for Pentecost (the feast of gathered sheaves). (Acts 20:16)

Then, in Revelation, you have the climax - the 'ethnoi' bring their glory into the Holy City - the Holy City is now open to the nations. The gates are no longer closed.

Anyway, your question is a trick question: the answer is "Both". It's written to the chosen race, and also to the gentiles. You need two legs to run a race. God wants both, for the one new man.

Now, some object saying "there is neither Jew nor Greek"; I reply, Why was Paul sending thanks from the churches of the gentiles (Rom 16:4) if there were no gentiles? How could Paul be the apostle to the gentiles (Eph 3:1; Gal 2:8; Rom 1:5) if there were no more gentiles?

All the above, of course, is tentative, hypothesis, conjecture, not some claim to special knowledge or understanding, or "true light". But the context of the Bible seems to be suggesting this sort of narrative to me. It just seems to make the most sense. Otherwise one reads weird footnotes like the RecV in Rev 21:24.

Christian believers may indeed shout and yell, even repetitively (they may also pray in one's closet; or may do both, at different times). But what I'm offering is the opposite of "get out of your mind" spiritism, either LC version or other brands; what the thread title refers to as "charismania". I rather suggest sober, continual and unrelenting reflection, pursuit, and the humility to learn from others, until the light of understanding begins to dawn. It's a process. (And I have absolutely no idea where I am in the process. God only knows.)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Aron, since leaving the Lee ministry, and coming to the awareness of my need to know more of Gods' word and proper doctrine, I have found many believers who 'rightly divide' scripture....in who it is speaking to....Gods' chosen race, or everyone else. What is your opinion on this point? Actually I would like everybodies opinion. Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask. No doubt it is. Forgive me! Kinda typical of me, huh? Lol please move this question if need be. I do feel this goes to the understanding without context question.

I am among those believers who in the last 6 months am being led by the Spirit I truly believe to learn to study and rightly divide the Word of Truth. I am understanding the Word of God with much more clarity now.

I had been pondering on starting a new thread on this subject matter because as I study, I have realized Lee and possibly Nee did not rightly divide the Word of Truth as instructed in 2 Timothy 2:15. Lee for sure ushered in the spirit of confusion and then some.

That's not to say they got all their teachings wrong.
BUT A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus is King of the Jews and Saviour of the World (nations, or 'ethnoi'). He's both. The King of the Jews is to rule the world. . .some object saying "there is neither Jew nor Greek"; I reply, Why was Paul sending thanks from the churches of the gentiles (Rom 16:4) if there were no gentiles? How could Paul be the apostle to the gentiles (Eph 3:1; Gal 2:8; Rom 1:5) if there were no more gentiles?

And if there is no Jew or Greek, then how is Jesus repeatedly called their King? "Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star at its rising, and have come to worship him". Such statements make no sense if the Jewish race are effaced in the one new man.

At the risk of creating a reflexive mantra, I say again: Bad theology loudly shouted doesn't become good theology. Bad ideas, which diminish the inherent meaning of the text, are not magically rescued by our enthusiasm and intensity of reception. If volume and repetition could transfer divinity, then the so-called Screamers (or Shouters) would have done so. I saw video smuggled out, which showed Lee's theology via his hymns being shouted over and over. But at the end of the day, it was just Lee's theology, uncritically received via repetitive shouting. They called it "eating God" and claimed it would make them God, but look what happened: after Lee was gone, things deteriorated such that Lee's publication organ LSM had to disavow them.

I've had people come to me over the years and try to make me come under the law. I tell them, "Read Acts 15". It's clear that we can't compel gentiles to keep the law. "Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek" ~Gal 2:3 Any passage of the Bible, when taken out of original context, can be used to lead us astray. Coming into the LC, I didn't appreciate this as much as today.

And repetitive shouting doesn't prevent this from happening; rather it may enable deception. It may bring us to a weakened state where we're more receptive to theological nonsense. Put differently, no matter how many times you shout that the moon is made of green cheese, nor how loudly, doesn't make it so. You may "enjoy" the warm glow for a while, but the "metabolic transformation" that you were promised doesn't automatically follow. The moon remains what it already was.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

.... the musician, a keyboardist/vocalist with a band, kept repeating the same phrase about 25 times. But they would add things to "instensify" the verse and make the crowd hand-wave and arm-wave and stay engaged.

It made me think about the LC practice of pray-reading, taking one phrase and going over and over again, building "emotional context" or subjectivity into the word, but losing context in meaning, as the original sentence was once part of a narrative, with a beginning and an ending. In other words, there was a story there, once; now there was just a verse in a vacuum, filled with whatever imaginary things one might choose to put.

Everyone's experience in pray reading is different. While what you share here is true, Aron, and many people experienced just that, yours truly included, I sometimes did enter into the Presence of God through pray reading. Pray reading taught me how to meditate on the Word of God. I even used the pray reading technique to study for a test! It helped me retain my notes!

That's not to say I never experienced the emotional context... I did but it never felt real to me and due that my salvation from the Lord Jesus was so strong and intense, I believe I was able to discern what was real and what was fake, even in me.

I'm not sure when Matthew 6:7 came alive in me but at some point in my journey it did: when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Jesus told us in John 14:26 that
the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

These scriptures helped me to focus on Christ when I prayed or read/meditated on the scriptures. These scriptures were/are also instrumental in helping me to discern what is man's teachings for his personal gain, his/her control by manipulating the scriptures and to discern what is of the SPIRIT.

Unfortunately, I don't think the LC leaders (or many preachers for that matter) emphasized to us when we pray or study/read the word to read/pray from a pure heart.

We are told in Timothy to follow Righteousness,(Who is Christ Jesus) faith, charity,(Love) peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Blessings to all

[byHismercy]

This morning I was reading Proverbs chapter 8 (because it's the 8th, of course). It personifies wisdom as a woman standing on high, standing at the doors, standing by the wayside. It places wisdom with God eternal, before the creation, always with the Creator. Wisdom goes together with prudence, which I translated 'caution'. I agree with all of you....Aron, Ohio, and Countmeworthy. Ohio, I would add to what you advise and say, if you can display Jesus, if you have peace before a room full of unbelievers, to shout/pray-read, then do so. If you fear the witness of Christ in you is lost before them, refrain.
byHismercy

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I would add to what you advise and say, if you can display Jesus, if you have peace before a room full of unbelievers, to shout/pray-read, then do so. If you fear the witness of Christ in you is lost before them, refrain.
byHismercy

Bible says tongues are for a sign to unbelievers (I Cor 14.22).

Perhaps "shout/pray-read" qualifies?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Bible says tongues are for a sign to unbelievers (I Cor 14.22).

Perhaps "shout/pray-read" qualifies?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I was listening to a Christian musician go over and over a verse from the Bible. It was in a "Praise and Worship" setting, and the musician, a keyboardist/vocalist with a band, kept repeating the same phrase about 25 times.

Back to my story: I simply watched a video of a song being played. After the song was over, there may have been an outstanding sermon giving the proper context, or understanding, of the verses in question. I don't know. What I do feel is that the song alone, absent context, may bring emotional response. But without understanding there is no real change. And without context how can we have understanding?