Practically engaged to an LCer

[jmar]

I'm practically engaged to an LCer. We've been talking about getting married, and lately I've discussed what Sundays and the Christian life would look like after we are married and living together. I really care about this girl, and she would make a really great life long companion because she has qualities I don't see in women of my generation (she's from China, I'm from the US). Everything is good except for our differences in faith. I attend a non-denominational church that's pretty open-minded and warmly welcomes everyone, whereas she attends the LC, which feels like an insider's club. I have expressed my concerns to her, and she simply does not see what I see.

She also has issues with my church, so I suggested we start attending a new church that neither one of us have been to. She suggests the LC is her "life supply", and I keep thinking to myself that her faith is so weak if it depends solely on the LC. We listened to a few episodes of a study by Francis Chan, and I mentioned there were some discussion questions we could go over. She said she's only comfortable answering the questions which she already knows the answer to. What's the point then? She said she can't answer open ended questions because she doesn't have the confidence that she'll answer it "right".

I tried to get her to read "Praise Habit" by David Crowder, but she "forgot" it last night before she left my house. I'm trying to introduce material other than the same old recycled stuff from the LC. Might try some John Piper too. She prefers reading out loud with others and linking the old testament to the new, but I prefer reading to myself or having some topic/discussion driven reading. I've read a lot of content in the morning revival that's erroneous in that it attempts to link some old testament verses to Jesus, but I just don't see it.

I will never be able to get used to the LC, and I'm not sure whether or not she'll be able to get used to anything else. The same attitude prevails from every LCer I've encountered: they think they're right and the legitimate church and everyone else is not right. I have been away from this type of church for so long that it's weird to me for people to behave this way. My girlfriend denies that she feels this way, and I believe her. My weakness is that I'm not much of a reader, theologian, etc. I enjoy spirituality through music quite heavily and also by showing love to all people, though sometimes reading is ok. She doesn't really care for music at all in the spiritual sense. What should I do? Am I on the right track?

[Nell]

Since you asked, I’ll be blunt.

What should you do? Walk away.
Are you on the right track? No.

You’re in “like”. You haven’t given very good reasons to marry her. Instead, you have stated very serious reasons not to marry her. When she says the church is her “life supply”, believe her. Can you compete with that for the rest of your life?

I knew a couple who married in the church. After a few years, he loved her more than he loved the church, but she loved the church more than she loved him. It was her “life supply”. She couldn’t live without “the saints”, but she could live without him. She “fellowshiped” with an elder who advised her to divorce him. She did. Multiply this story several hundred/thousand times.

What should you do? Walk away.
Are you on the right track? No.

..

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

What should you do? Walk away.
Are you on the right track? No...

Strong amen here. The LC practices a pervasive mind-control programme. This potential counterpart may be physically attractive and as pleasant and genial a match as one could ask for.

Yet, their mind is not their own. And guess what? The heart and soul and body will follow the captured mind. And anyone joined to such a person will have to deal with the consequences of this fact, not temporarily, but permanently. Too many people have entered into ill-fitting union, naively believing that love will cover all, and/or the partner will somehow magically change.

Don't bet your life on such wishful thinking.

[jmar]

Thanks for the feedback. She's not been a Christian for too long, but her first experience was in the LC in grad school. I'm not exactly sure how their program reaches people because US college students would not respond to it. To me there is nothing at all attractive about it. Anyway, I don't feel the need to compete with the LC since I'm happy with my church group and with my own life.

The issue would come later when we have kids, which has me concerned. She has told me she doesn't care where our kids go to church when they're young, but she would like them to attend the FTTA when they are older. What she doesn't realize is that my church is busting at the seams with kids and young people, and once my kids set foot inside the doors of my church they will probably not want to leave it. Regardless, I have expressed my concerns to her that we need to think about this before getting married. I may try to keep working on her and delay the marriage until she gives up or gives in. I already have a child from my previous marriage, so I am content with a sense of family already. Surprisingly my GF has not disappeared during Christmas and has spent time with me and my family.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

I'm practically engaged to an LCer. We've been talking about getting married....

Clearly don't do it. I know how spellbinding those Chinese girls can be. I married one.

Even if you join the local church it won't work. Neither will last.

Breaking it off now might hurt. But not as much as later up the road if you marry her.

If you fell for a girl that's in Scientology, would it be smart to marry her?

Sorry brother. Wrong sister. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Just stay away from women that are in a cult. For what it's worth, that's my best advice.

Many blessings.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Clearly don't do it. I know how spellbinding those Chinese girls can be. I married one.

Thanks dude. I'd never join the LC or anything I deem "weird". It's really easy to speak of breaking off the relationship, but in reality it is really hard to do. I believe there is hope that anyone, even her, to leave the LC. I live nearly an hour from the nearest LC, and if we married she would move in with me. She mentioned driving each week, but I don't think it would last long or maybe she would only go sometimes. We'll have a few days to discuss some things over the holidays, so we'll see how it goes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

Thanks dude. I'd never join the LC or anything I deem "weird". It's really easy to speak of breaking off the relationship, but in reality it is really hard to do. I believe there is hope that anyone, even her, to leave the LC. I live nearly an hour from the nearest LC, and if we married she would move in with me. She mentioned driving each week, but I don't think it would last long or maybe she would only go sometimes. We'll have a few days to discuss some things over the holidays, so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck with that. I take it you're in love. I hope it works out. But will she be happy? If she ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy.

But it might happen if she stops going, after awhile, looking at it from the outside, she'll find happiness that she got free. Let's hope.

[HERn]

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart. One other source of information would be to ask if any of her LC friends or elders have offered her comments on her romance with you. Sorry for the bad news on Christmas Eve!

[jmar]

Originally Posted by HERn

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart. One other source of information would be to ask if any of her LC friends or elders have offered her comments on her romance with you. Sorry for the bad news on Christmas Eve!

She visited her old friend (an older motherly type) in Nevada earlier this month, and she seems to have gotten "recharged" from it. I told her to ask her friend about us getting married, and her friend can tell she's happy and thinks it's a good idea, surprisingly. She said her friend put her opinions aside and told my GF to keep "enjoying the Lord". Every time I hear something vague like this it drives me nuts...lol. My GF told me it makes her uncomfortable that I have so many opinions about "the church life". She's very much a feeler and I'm a thinker. She tells me I should put my thoughts and opinions aside and "enjoy the Lord" or "use my spirit". It's really easy for a feeling type to be ok with this. I tell her the Lord gave me a mind and made me a thinker, so I'm going to use it...lol.

She has one other friend in "the church life" whom she has shared all of this with, and both of her friends are praying for us. I'm not sure exactly what kind of prayers those are, but I have my friends praying for us too.

I've got my daughter this Christmas, and it means the world, despite the weird GF situation. A lot of people thought we wouldn't work out due to cultural differences, but it may come down to faith group differences. Never thought I'd be in this situation.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart.

The problem is, people don't want to spoil the romance with hard-headed questions. Then they spend the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't have them, first. I'd write down my questions, hand them to her, and say that you have some questions about this group; she can take her time and consider them.

Start out by affirming the common faith. Then politely and respectfully point out your concerns.

Example: I notice that this group follows one Bible teacher, Witness Lee. But his predecessor Watchman Nee had a library of 3,000 books! Clearly he was able to draw from multiple sources - why have things changed so drastically?

Or, I notice that Watchman Nee learned from female authors and teachers, such as Jessie Penn-Lewis and Madame Guyon, and was trained by a woman named Margaret Barber, and had female 'senior co-workers' like Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Why is it that women in the LC today have no such venues for spiritual labor and expression?

Tell her, "Please carefully think about these things, and try to answer them, because I'm having these kinds of questions and if you love me it should matter to you."

Be thorough and be careful. She'll be impressed that you care enough to be clear, and will try to engage (hopefully). Tell her, this is a conversation between you and I. Try to think about these questions. I'll be glad to talk them over with you.

She will try to flee to the "elders" with their pat answers. Tell her, yes we can go to the senior ones, but right now you and I are having a conversation. Let's figure out what we can here and now, then go to others for help if we get stuck.

She says she loves you. I think you will find out real quick if she loves you or is just playing you.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good luck with that. I take it you're in love. I hope it works out. But will she be happy? If she ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy.

But it might happen if she stops going, after awhile, looking at it from the outside, she'll find happiness that she got free. Let's hope.

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

Let's hope if y'all do marry that she doesn't put the local church before you. That will eventually become a problem if that happens.

But it sounds like y'all are being sensible, and talking about it. Is she in love with you?

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by jmar

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

You both may be perfectly fine with that arrangement, however, this is NOT how it should be in a Christian marriage. A married couple should not worship and fellowship separately. And when kids come along, that will only complicate matters further.

Take it from someone who is married to an active LC member. My husband and I have been married for over 22 years, and when he started attending this church approximately 8 years ago, my marriage became a nightmare! We have NEVER been on the brink of divorce but for the last 8 years, precisely when he started attending this brain-washing cult!! BEWARE! Although there is nothing impossible for our Lord Jesus, the haughtiness and pride of these members blinds them to ANYTHING OR ANYONE outside this heretical ministry. Tread very carefully and PRAY!!!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by jmar

She also has issues with my church, so I suggested we start attending a new church that neither one of us have been to. She suggests the LC is her "life supply", and I keep thinking to myself that her faith is so weak if it depends solely on the LC...

jmar,

I agree with Nell's sentiment in #2... but perhaps for different reasons.

I'll also be frank as she was... your considerations and that of your potential fiance (just based on what you write here in this forum) seems to lack a fundamental element in the relationship. Love. Mutual love. Not just like... but love. Call me old fashioned.

Yet, even if you assess that you love her and she loves you, the way you are conducting yourself seems to be less than forthcoming.... I won't say manipulative because I can't read your heart.... but you're trying to change her by steering a little this way and some veering that way.... and yet she has already told you where her heart is. That is not how you want to start a life long relationship. And your proposal to attend a third church that neither of you currently attend did not honor her convictions and showed no conviction on your part for where you are currently attending! Why would she leave what she believes about so strongly.... for something that you don't really care about or another anon place that you know nothing about yourself?

I think if you really love this girl, you should be prepared to accept her priorities BEFORE you marry her else you will end up in a world of hurt as Nell rightly forecasts. If you have concerns and you love and care about her you will work through those upfront and then decide whether a life union if right for both of you. As it stands, it appears you are on the wrong track.

I wish you well.

Drake

[Ohio]

I find it troubling that jmar would come to this forum seeking help for one of life's most important decisions, and then Drake would question whether jmar actually loved the girl he was almost engaged to. He then challenges jmar for not conducting himself in a forthcoming manner, questioning his convictions. If the LC's did not have such a poor track record with failed marriages, I might have remained silent here.

I believe that the matter of *convictions* is exactly what jmar and his GF need to have honest discussions about. That is why he came here to research his GF's church. I and others have commended him for reaching out to others.

jmar needs to know prior to his marriage whether she is committed to the Lord and to her future husband, or whether she is merely committed to a church with questionable ties to a Publishing House in Anaheim. Every healthy courtship demands answers like these to life's challenges, and the courtship is the right time to discover these answers -- not after they are married.

Call me old fashioned, but I do believe marriage is perhaps our most serious decision in life next to our faith, and should be preceded with much prayer and many discussions with a future spouse about serious matters of their relationship. Marriage in the 21st century is already bombarded with endless attacks, and finding a like-minded mate can reduce these challenges.

[jmar]

After lots of praying and speaking with my counselor, I have decided to proceed with our relationship. She is dedicated to me and to the Lord and is not so "bound" to the LC as others are. There have been times when others have stated their opinions or suggested someone within the church for her to date, but she ignores their attempts. It doesn't seem to bother her if she misses a Sunday or meeting, and she never expects me to attend with her. There have been numerous times when we've been together, and she's chosen to stay with me rather than go to a meeting. She always listens to my spiritual perspective, even if it has a different ring to it from what she's used to. She thinks people should wear whatever they want to the meetings and that dressing up isn't at all necessary. There's no doubt that she's dedicated to me. When I first posted here I was hung on the differences between our churches, and I ignored our relationship with each other and with the Lord. She was never hung up on it like I was. I realized it was getting in the way of our relationship, so I had to pray that God would give me the strength to get through this and then I realized I need to let go of my right to understand. Sometimes I have a hard time with that (maybe I am just getting set in my ways). We have prayed a lot together, and those times are really sweet and powerful.

Some of you have given your opinion of our relationship based on what little I wrote here. That's fine, but it appears that a lot has been ASS-U-ME-d I kept things brief as to not go down any rabbit holes and to not share too many personal things.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

[awareness]

Congratulation brother. All the happiness in the world for you and her. Love never fails.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by jmar

After lots of praying and speaking with my counselor, I have decided to proceed with our relationship. She is dedicated to me and to the Lord and is not so "bound" to the LC as others are....

Quick question. Has she decided on the venue of the wedding, and the role her LC elders will play?

Best,
HERn

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

Quick question. Has she decided on the venue of the wedding, and the role her LC elders will play?

Best,
HERn

Good question HERn. Two couples got married at my wedding. So families from both families came to our double wedding.

There wasn't any traditional marriage ceremonies. I wasn't in control, my marriage had been arranged by elders from two different localities.

So unbeknownst to me, it was determined beforehand, by the elders, to be a 'gospel' meeting, to try to win over family members attending the marriage of their children.

The families were aghast. I felt double-crossed, but I just got married, and had little choice but to let it slide.

Let's hope jmar doesn't allow himself to fall into something like that, and doesn't hold his wedding at the local church.

But it seems to me that jmar and his bride to be are being reasonable about this wedding. I hope it's showered with blessings.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by HERn

Quick question. Has she decided on the venue of the wedding, and the role her LC elders will play?

Best,
HERn

We're thinking to have a small ceremony with family and friends, and it won't be at the LC. We're not sure who will officiate yet, but my neighbor is one option (he's got the license or whatever it is).

Originally Posted by jmar

I'm practically engaged to an LCer. We've been talking about getting married, and lately I've discussed what Sundays and the Christian life would look like after we are married and living together. I really care about this girl, and she would make a really great life long companion because she has qualities I don't see in women of my generation (she's from China, I'm from the US). Everything is good except for our differences in faith. I attend a non-denominational church that's pretty open-minded and warmly welcomes everyone, whereas she attends the LC, which feels like an insider's club. I have expressed my concerns to her, and she simply does not see what I see.

Brother, please don't do follow through unless this women breaks her yoke with the LC completely. I'm certain much unnecessary pain will follow otherwise for you.

[Sons to Glory!]

I want to comment about whether or not you gather with the LCers occasionally. They are just another group of believers. Every gathering has its own things of the flesh that they cling to, and the LC is no different. Many (if not all) gatherings have this or that they think is superior, that is why we all tend to gather unto our own - a birds of a feather (flocking together) thing. The ekklesia, in spirit is not this way, but it's natural for ol' Adam to do this.

I have no resistance to going to or fellowshiping with any Christian or group within this parameter: that they have Christ in them and there is not gross manifested sin. I participate with eyes wide open, but seek to abide in the gentle Spirit of the Lamb. There must be strength in spirit to not be carried off with this or that (related to some "distraction" the group may be focused on), and instead to stay focused on Christ alone. And I also have become exercised to not judge others in the non-essential items of the faith (as bro Lee once taught). And in doing this, I have tasted the oneness in the body, no matter where I go!

So you have the freedom to attend the LC gatherings or any other, to enjoy Christ with them. I think it's a good exercise, and it took me some time to learn to feed on Christ in various gatherings and discard the rest. Just be like the Bereans and examine things you hear and see prayerfully and with the Word. You have the Anointing . . . also stay in close, open fellowship with some brothers who have no agenda other than knowing Christ.

(and yes, I do have my own "preference" to where I usually fellowship . . .)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So you have the freedom to attend the LC gatherings or any other, to enjoy Christ with them.

But wouldn't that be like enabling a alcoholic?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

But wouldn't that be like enabling a alcoholic?

LOL! We're all "alcoholics" metaphorically speaking - that's why we need Jesus. That is why it's said we should purpose to know nothing amongst each other, except Christ and Him crucified!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

LOL! We're all "alcoholics" metaphorically speaking - that's why we need Jesus. That is why it's said we should purpose to know nothing amongst each other, except Christ and Him crucified!

You are right bro StG. But ... the local church is not like other Christian groups you say you are meeting with. The local church is an addiction.

I appreciate that this brother and sister are compromising for the sake of their love and marriage. That's what makes marriage work. I appreciate the sisters willingness to skip meetings to be with him. That's a sign that she really loves him.

Let's hope for his sake, the sake of their coming marriage, and her sake, that her love for him overcomes her addiction to the LC.

I'm surprised former LC members here are condoning your decision to marry an active member of Lee's Local Church knowing full well what this place is and how capable they are of influencing minds. Do you guys really wish to place such a load upon this young man's shoulders knowing what you know?

From what you say, she's been involved for 2 years with the LC and is at the point where she insists your future children attend the FTT. It's clear that she is already indoctrinated and hooked in their system of control contrary to what you are trying to pass off.

Jmar, whether you realize it or not, you are marrying her convictions and beliefs . Thinking it'll be an easy task to pull her out after marriage in being naive. I mean that's the end goal, right? No one can tell you to marry or not to marry this women but as it was suggested, test things now while you have the opportunity. If she's willing to leave before tying the knot, then great, if not well then you'll know full well what you're signing up for without excuse.