afazio - Spiritual Authority

Thanks, Steve! This is a very valuable labor of love on your part. It IS helpful!

I did not previously know about Nee's change in emphasis in 1948. Wow! How could he have been SOOO deceived? It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything. What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS" and "from things strangled"? What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother), and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"), and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem. And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).

What's even more interesting is that this same error is being perpetuated today in Christendom as, I believe, the origin of "the great apostasy" of the end time. That apostasy is being proliferated by Bill Johnson, Che Ahn and other phoney baloney "apostles" to take over Christianity. It has proliferated worldwide and has infiltrated more of Christianity that is free of it. It originally hid (as leaven in the loaf---almost invisible though endemic) as the New Apostolic Reformation (N.A.R.) however, it has changed its name (in order to remain surreptitious and difficult to identify) to H.I.M. Harvest International Ministry (including Hillsong music, etc. and everything else related to Bethel Church).

This idea of the "apostles" RULING over churches is absurd! Even the true Apostle Paul---who either directly or indirectly raised up the churches he was ministering to---had no DIRECT authority over those churches. The local ELDERS had the authority! Paul's influence was only spiritual, and was subject to whether or not the elders would receive him and his ministry. They were under no obligation to do so (even though Paul spoke strongly to his "babies" in Corinth, even that was subject to the acceptance of the elders in the church there).

That is sort of like me, as a grandmother, exercising "authority" over my grandchildren. I DO, generally, exercise authority over my grandchildren. However, I can only do that under the auspices of my children. I have one son with whom my authority is pretty much unquestioned. I have another son where my authority over his children is much more limited

I forgot to add that it was the brothers in Jerusalem who insisted that Paul revert to the OT dispensation of putting himself and his proteges under the Nazarite vow (or some sort of then-modern facsimile that the church in Jerusalem thought would sanctify them for "the work"). (I wonder if Nee would have espoused that his current workers promulgate THAT through the churches.) Let alone that the vision of the new man was exclusive to Paul (who, of course, was NOT---in any way, shape or form) a "Jerusalemite"! In fact, that is the Paul's labor in Galatians 1 and 2----to separate himself and his work from being identified with "Jerusalem" in any way AND be identified with God alone!

Paul----certainly NOT James----had "the heavenly vision! He even referred to it as "MY gospel." And Peter even confessed that the things Paul said were "difficult to understand" and that the "unlearned" and "unstable" (I would include here James and the saints under him in Jerusalem) might "distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16).

Perhaps Nee's confusion in his later years was a reason the Lord removed him (by imprisonment) from leadership over so many churches (just as He removed John the Baptist when he became a "confusing" competitor on the scene (John's "disciples" challenging "Jesus disciples---when, since Jesus was ministering, there should no longer BE "John's disciples) as opposed to only a herald (a "voice in the wilderness") POINTING TO Jesus.

And I won't even BEGIN to address the confusion of Lee and the LC cult! Amen to the fact that anyone who has touched Lee's cult needs a HUGE dose of New Testament economy! The New Covenant includes the edict that "You shall NOT teach every man his neighbor and every man his fellow servant to know the Lord, for ALL SHALL KNOW ME---from the least to the greatest of them!" Thank God, NONE OF US----regardless of our assumed "stature" can discern "the anointing" or the "leading of the Holy Spirit" for ANY other (from the least to the greatest among us). We can teach the truth of the Scriptures; however, we CANNOT determine for another HOW God is leading. So, the way "delegated authority" is taught and practiced in the LC is totally a violation of "God's New Testament ECONOMY." The examples that Nee used of OT figures such as Noah and Saul are NOT examples of NT leadership but ARE examples of CHRIST as God's ANOINTED. NT leadership is servant leadership!

Of course, there IS church government and church discipline, when necessary for specific, clearly identified SINS (NOT including differing ministries or views that are not clearly ABERRANT to the truth or the faith). "Quarantine" because of dissenting views that are taken in love and to sharpen iron in the truth of the Word of God is MORE than overreaching, it is SINFUL on the part of the church (or, in the case of the LC, the CULT).

Also, spiritual authority is NOT "delegated" authority (as is taught by both Nee and Lee). Spiritual authority is FUNCTIONAL authority. The difference between the two is that "delegated authority" is authority which is posited in a specific person----regardless of that person's condition----IN THE ABSENCE of the original authority. That is to say, if a husband leaves his wife in charge of the children while he is at work, the wife is solely responsible for the children (REGARDLESS of her CONDITION) during that time. That "authority" has been "delegated" to her by her husband. (Or, you might think of parents delegating their authority to their chosen babysitter while they go out for the evening.)

FUNCTIONAL authority is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT! Functional authority is authority which an agent possesses BECAUSE OF his own personal gift. It is fully contingent on that gift REMAINING with him/in him in order to serve. So, that agent's CONDITION is paramount in maintaining his authority. For instance, in a movie theater or a dance, if a person has a heart attack, the "authority" of a medical doctor who may simply have been a patron suddenly comes into action. Or, if someone speaks a "foreign" language in a situation, the "authority" of someone who is bilingual and can translate suddenly come into action. Similarly, spiritual authority is manifest among saints by those who perform in spiritual ways (elders in that respective congregation). If, however, the appointed elder is, for some reason, operating in his flesh, he is not functionally, at that moment, truly "in authority," since his "authority" is not POSITIONAL but functional. Similarly, a medical doctor, because he is designated as such, can fail in his "gift" and still remain recognized. However, if he fails TOO heinously, he becomes disbarred. However, a father (of children) is a delegated authority (delegated so by God in nature). Whatever his condition, he continues to be a father. He has been "appointed" in his person, irrespective of any gift.

[UntoHim]

Thank you afazio for this comprehensive treatise on spiritual authority! If I'm not mistaken, you authored a little booklet regarding this matter during the late 1980s turmoil. I still have a copy of that booklet somewhere among all my papers.

Please consider registering for the forum if you have not already done so. You can simply send an email requesting registration to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com - Be sure to include your desired UserName (afazio will work just fine)
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[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Be sure to include your desired UserName (afazio will work just fine)
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The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.

But thanks afazio, for putting into words what my spirit felt when I got the boot - for objecting to Lee being God's authority on the earth.

I do wish that you would join up.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.
....

What does this mean?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.

But thanks afazio, for putting into words what my spirit felt when I got the boot - for objecting to Lee being God's authority on the earth.

I do wish that you would join up.

Afazio is NOT a speech disorder Harold! You obviously have no Awareness of the meaning of Afazio. If she feels like explaining, she will. It's not my place to do so.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Afazio is NOT a speech disorder Harold! You obviously have no Awareness of the meaning of Afazio. If she feels like explaining, she will. It's not my place to do so.

I think Awareness meant aphasia, but he must have a sleight speech impediment or sticky keyboard.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by afazio

I did not previously know about Nee's change in emphasis in 1948. Wow! How could he have been SOOO deceived? It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything.

Whether it be ...

• The Judaizers "of James" during the first century
• Bishops in Rome during post-apostolic centuries
• John Darby of the 1840's
• Watchman Nee of the 1940's
• Witness Lee of the 1970's and 80's
• The Blendeds of the 2000's

A few things were absolutely identical -- gifted leaders rising up from within (Acts 20.30) drawing others to themselves employing self-assumed spiritual authority to rule the churches of God resulting in a horrible loss of spiritual blessing and fruitfulness. In each case these "authorities" used errant and perverted teachings of distorted oneness to lord it over the church of God.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by afazio

What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS"

I understand "meat sacrificed to Idols" to be something similar to a Pittsburgh Steelers Jersey, or a bumper sticker supporting the Boston Celtics. You are promoting an idol and that could have a number of negative impacts on others. Even if you yourself are not "an idol worshipper".

Originally Posted by afazio

and "from things strangled"?

I understand this as the "ethical treatment of animals". Yes, you can raise animals for food and kill them, but do it in a humane way and don't support those who are cruel and unethical.

Originally Posted by afazio

What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother),

I believe James has fully and completely addressed this in his epistle and has thoroughly repented for any negative impact that had.

Originally Posted by afazio

and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"),

I think his point was not that Peter and John and James were not pillars, but that our faith is not rooted or based in man.

Originally Posted by afazio

and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem.

Further emphasis on how our faith is not based on man. Remember WL talked about how different members were more sanctified than others and that being in their presence would affect your growth. I heard this kind of talk often in Houston, particularly from Ray Graver and MC.

Originally Posted by afazio

And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).

I think this falls under the "if in anything you are otherwise minded the Spirit will reveal this to you".

[recoveringCK]

Originally Posted by afazio

Thanks, Steve! This is a very valuable labor of love on your part. It IS helpful!

That is sort of like me, as a grandmother, exercising "authority" over my grandchildren. I DO, generally, exercise authority over my grandchildren. However, I can only do that under the auspices of my children. I have one son with whom my authority is pretty much unquestioned. I have another son where my authority over his children is much more limited

To what degree do the elders in a city have biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over the believers in the city or the church?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

To what degree do the elders in a city have biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over the believers in the city or the church?

Only the Lord Jesus, our Redeemer and Savior, has biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over us. All others who attempt to "rule over us" or "draw us to themselves" are lording it over us, and the Bible repeatedly condemns this.

Proper and healthy Christian leaders should be ministers, shepherds, and servants to the children of God.

[recoveringCK]

Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

The hierarchical control system of the scribes and pharisees was not intended to be imitated but avoided.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

Lee brought it from China. He knew what he was doing, and cast aside any that got in his way.

He was going to be considered God's authority, God's mouthpiece, on the earth, and if you didn't fall in line under HIM, you were out ; as in excommunications and quarantines ; and lawsuits against cult claimers.

Speaking of cults. China has a long history of cults, some that have resulted in millions of deaths. That's why they're so hard on religious groups.

And I think that Nee and Lee syncretised that cult mentality with Christianity ... and out came the local church ... not that different from Eastern Lightning ... but with a different personality cult leader.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

The hierarchical control system of the scribes and pharisees was not intended to be imitated but avoided.

Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.

At any rate, spiritual authority in the "local churches" warrants scrutiny. Angelica has shaken things up with much passion, according to her convictions. She has had much appreciation for Watchman Nee up to this time; and only yesterday learned of his dramatic changes taken in 1948. Thus, her reaction.

She says, "Feel free to use anything I say if you think it will help. We are all those "three blind men with the elephant." One of us feels the trunk; one of us feels the tail; another feels the leg; then we try to figure out what this entity is about."

And I agree.


From Angelica
"I was pretty certain "Spiritual Authority" was written at that time [1948]. It has the seeds of that error----which I don't see in Nee's earlier writings. I do see some Chinese culture in all of Nee's work. However, I really appreciate his earlier ministry. And I think "Concerning Our Missions"/"The Normal Christian Church is, possibly his best, most classic---and unique---work. I also fully appreciate "The Spiritual Man" and all the volumes of "Twelve Baskets Full." I think those are my favorites (pretty much in that order).

This insanity of "the Jerusalem principle" is not at all worthy of the man he was in his earlier years. I had that same thing happen regarding another brother. When I came out of the LC, a brother gave me some 6 tape messages on the matter of authority. They were absolutely AMAZING messages!!!! I wish I could listen to them again today!

Those messages were chock full of scriptures describing the 7 "levels" of authority. Wow! They made EVERYTHING clear to me! I memorized the general information, but would LOVE to hear them today for so many of the details!

What Mahoney said was that 1. God, 2. Christ, 3.the Holy Spirit and 4. the Word of God were all levels of authority that had to be obeyed absolutely. Under them is 5. conscience---which also needs to be obeyed absolutely. Under conscience (on a level parallel with one another) are delegated and functional authority---both of which can demand only qualified obedience (under the other "levels' of authority. Mahoney used the verse in Romans about "Let every soul be subject to the HIGHER authorities." To Mahoney, that indicated there are various levels of authority (which also supports the idea of conscientious objector, because conscience, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, etc. are all "higher" levels of authority than either delegated or functional authority).

And, since conscience can be faulty because it is educable, if the Holy Spirit, God, or the Word of God command something the conscience doesn't confirm, we must go with the Word of God. (For instance, the African headhunter may be trained that if he doesn't secure enough heads per day he doesn't feel as if he is being a "good" headhunter. But the Bible tells us not to murder.) It is doubtful that that particular conflict would occur under most ordinary circumstances. However, the conflict of delegated authority (particularly in governments and families) conflicting with the Word of God, conscience, the Holy Spirit and/or God is very common!

The last two levels (which are actually two different kinds of authority which are on the same level) are delegated authority (such as government and responsible members of the family) and functional authority (authority due to gift, ability or attribute, such a an athlete, an artist, a doctor, a musician, a lawyer, any sort of minister or spiritual authority, etc.)

We had always been taught that spiritual authority is a from of "delegated authority." But it isn't. Delegated authority is assigned to an agent in the absence of the initial one who possessed that authority. But God is Emmanuel; He is WITH us! He never went anywhere. Also, delegated authority rests in that agent regardless of that agent's condition. (A police officer, president, father, mother, mayor, etc. has authority by virtue of his position, regardless of his particular condition. He may be a good or bad agent, but he is still that agent, regardless. His authority is posited in him upon delegation.

Functional authority, on the other hand, is FULLY contingent upon the gift, ability, or attribute of the possessor. If a man is more spiritual than others in his assembly, he has more spiritual authority. If he sins grievously, he may lose his authority and be less spiritual than others. A doctor can be disbarred; a very poor athlete or musician loses his authority in the sphere in which he is to manifest the authority of his gift or skill. So, it is with spiritual authority.

The messages were given by a Ralph Mahoney. I had never heard of him before those messages. However, eventually I went to a charismatic church pastored by some brothers who knew Ralph Mahoney. When I brought up his name, they actually invited him to speak. His speaking was absolute pablum. No content and worthless! I was SOOO disappointed!

I signed up for his magazine. It, too, was worthless. I have no idea how a brother could at one time give such AMAZING, revelatory, insightful and scriptural messages and later be so superficial. And not just superficial, but I was pretty certain "Spiritual Authority" was written at that time. It has the seeds of that error----which I don't see in Nee's earlier writings. I do see some Chinese culture in all of Nee's work. However, I really appreciate his earlier ministry. And I think "Concerning Our Missions"/"The Normal Christian Church is, possibly his best, most classic---and unique---work. I also fully appreciate "The Spiritual Man" and all the volumes of "Twelve Baskets Full." I think those are my favorites (pretty much in that order).

This insanity of "the Jerusalem principle" is not at all worthy of the man he was in his earlier years. I had that same thing happen regarding another brother. When I came out of the LC, a brother gave me some 6 tape messages on the matter of authority. They were absolutely AMAZING messages!!!! I wish I could listen to them again today!

Those messages were chock full of scriptures describing the 7 "levels" of authority. Wow! They made EVERYTHING clear to me! I memorized the general information, but would LOVE to hear them today for so many of the details!

What Mahoney said was that 1. God, 2. Christ, 3.the Holy Spirit and 4. the Word of God were all levels of authority that had to be obeyed absolutely. Under them is 5. conscience---which also needs to be obeyed absolutely. Under conscience (on a level parallel with one another) are delegated and functional authority---both of which can demand only qualified obedience (under the other "levels' of authority. Mahoney used the verse in Romans about "Let every soul be subject to the HIGHER authorities." To Mahoney, that indicated there are various levels of authority (which also supports the idea of conscientious objector, because conscience, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, etc. are all "higher" levels of authority than either delegated or functional authority).

And, since conscience can be faulty because it is educable, if the Holy Spirit, God, or the Word of God command something the conscience doesn't confirm, we must go with the Word of God. (For instance, the African headhunter may be trained that if he doesn't secure enough heads per day he doesn't feel as if he is being a "good" headhunter. But the Bible tells us not to murder.) It is doubtful that that particular conflict would occur under most ordinary circumstances. However, the conflict of delegated authority (particularly in governments and families) conflicting with the Word of God, conscience, the Holy Spirit and/or God is very common!

The last two levels (which are actually two different kinds of authority which are on the same level) are delegated authority (such as government and responsible members of the family) and functional authority (authority due to gift, ability or attribute, such a an athlete, an artist, a doctor, a musician, a lawyer, any sort of minister or spiritual authority, etc.)

We had always been taught that spiritual authority is a from of "delegated authority." But it isn't. Delegated authority is assigned to an agent in the absence of the initial one who possessed that authority. But God is Emmanuel; He is WITH us! He never went anywhere. Also, delegated authority rests in that agent regardless of that agent's condition. (A police officer, president, father, mother, mayor, etc. has authority by virtue of his position, regardless of his particular condition. He may be a good or bad agent, but he is still that agent, regardless. His authority is posited in him upon delegation.

Functional authority, on the other hand, is FULLY contingent upon the gift, ability, or attribute of the possessor. If a man is more spiritual than others in his assembly, he has more spiritual authority. If he sins grievously, he may lose his authority and be less spiritual than others. A doctor can be disbarred; a very poor athlete or musician loses his authority in the sphere in which he is to manifest the authority of his gift or skill. So, it is with spiritual authority.

The messages were given by a Ralph Mahoney. I had never heard of him before those messages. However, eventually I went to a charismatic church pastored by some brothers who knew Ralph Mahoney. When I brought up his name, they actually invited him to speak. His speaking was absolute pablum. No content and worthless! I was SOOO disappointed!

I signed up for his magazine. It, too, was worthless. I have no idea how a brother could at one time give such AMAZING, revelatory, insightful and scriptural messages and later be so superficial. And not just superficial, but charismaniac! That remains a complete mystery to me today!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.

Consider the tools they had to force compliance:

1. They could cut off the ministry from LSM. That would immediately distinguish this locality as being "off".

2. They could cut off the fellowship with other churches.

3. They could foment a challenge.

4. They could use their legal team to try and seize control of the meeting hall.

5. They could establish another "church" in that city.

Notice how 2-5 are divisive and thoroughly condemned by the NT yet were practiced by LSM.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by afazio

It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything. What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS" and "from things strangled"? What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother), and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"), and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem. And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).

Easy now afazio.

Folks in these parts don't take too kindly to finding shortcomings with James.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake I'm sure that afazio is quite aware that Witness Lee taught that one of the writers of the Divine Revelation was "DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION". (This outrageous statement should have got him removed from teaching vacation bible school, much, much less being the sole teacher of an entire Christian movement) afazio is probably also aware that you believe that Witness Lee was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth while he was alive. afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake I'm sure that afazio is quite aware that Witness Lee taught that one of the writers of the Divine Revelation was "DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION". (This outrageous statement should have got him removed from teaching vacation bible school, much, much less being the sole teacher of an entire Christian movement) afazio is probably also aware that you believe that Witness Lee was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth while he was alive. afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
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If afazios booklet is that good then post it here. Let's have a look.

Now back to James.... this forum rents it's clothes and throws dust in the air because Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James. Afazio throws James under the bus citing him as the responsible source for every bad thing that happened in the infant church and this same forum cheers and applauds her for incredible insight and clarity of mind.

The difference? Afazio wrote a little booklet speaking against Brother Lee. For that the forum awards her a lifetime platinum membership.

Looky here.....The Jerusalem principle is not about James. It's about how the Lord used a different model for evangelizing the Jews around Israel than the one He deployed to evangelize Gentiles far and wide. A careful reading of Acts with an open mind will show just that.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

..Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James.

Drake, do you think we're all stupid here? Witness Lee said NO SUCH THING. HE SAID JAMES WAS DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION. PERIOD. Any qualifications put on such a heretical statement are meaningless and worthless. Kind of like when you say you are "becoming God in life and nature....but not in the Godhead".

Here's another outrageous, ignorant statement by Lee:
"The book of James is devoid of the main items in the New Testament."
Again, Lee just couldn't help himself. He exposed his utter ignorance and disrespect for the Word of God. How could the the book of James be "devoid of the main items in the New Testament" WHEN IT IS PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. This is part of the reason that many former members, and even some keen observers of the Local Church of Witness Lee claim that LC members think of Lee's teachings as equal to or EVEN ABOVE the Word of God. It's sick. It's pathetic. It's dangerous. It's sad. May God have mercy.
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake, do you think we're all stupid here? Witness Lee said NO SUCH THING. HE SAID JAMES WAS DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION. PERIOD. Any qualifications put on such a heretical statement are meaningless and worthless. Kind of like when you say you are "becoming God in life and nature....but not in the Godhead".

Here's another outrageous, ignorant statement by Lee:
"The book of James is devoid of the main items in the New Testament."
Again, Lee just couldn't help himself. He exposed his utter ignorance and disrespect for the Word of God. How could the the book of James be "devoid of the main items in the New Testament" WHEN IT IS PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. This is part of the reason that many former members, and even some keen observers of the Local Church of Witness Lee claim that LC members think of Lee's teachings as equal to or EVEN ABOVE the Word of God. It's sick. It's pathetic. It's dangerous. It's sad. May God have mercy.
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UntoHim,


Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping... explain how James was enlightened concerning the main items in New Testament. If it is so obvious then you can show what Brother Lee missed in the book of James in less time than it takes you to craft a post filled with heat but absent of light.

By the way, there is no difference between the definition of "God's economy" and the "main items of the New Testament". Take your pick. If you think there is then you never understood or perhaps forgot what Brother's Nee and Lee taught concerning God's economy in the New Testament. It's is not heretical to assess James' letter as devoid of the main items of the New Testament or God's economy anymore then it is heretical for afazio to critique James/Jerusalem as causing problems in the infant church. It may seem different if you hold a double standard.

Still, I'd like to see that little booklet afazio wrote. Please post it here.

Thx,
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

If afazios booklet is that good then post it here. Let's have a look.

Now back to James.... this forum rents it's clothes and throws dust in the air because Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James. Afazio throws James under the bus citing him as the responsible source for every bad thing that happened in the infant church and this same forum cheers and applauds her for incredible insight and clarity of mind.

I think I have been every bit as strong and favorable to Jame's ministry as anyone on this forum, but I don't see where Afazio "throws him under the bus". The reality is that Peter had a major failing, Paul had a major failing and James also had a major failing. Each failing became critical to their respective ministry. Paul saw the Body of Christ as a result, Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both Jews and Gentiles as a result, and James saw how to deal with the danger of a false prophet.

Paul said this:
14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

James gives us much more detail on exactly how we could do that.

Originally Posted by Drake

The difference? Afazio wrote a little booklet speaking against Brother Lee. For that the forum awards her a lifetime platinum membership.

I have not read the booklet and it, along with anything Afazio has said concerning WL has not had the slightest effect on my posts.

Originally Posted by Drake

Looky here.....The Jerusalem principle is not about James. It's about how the Lord used a different model for evangelizing the Jews around Israel than the one He deployed to evangelize Gentiles far and wide. A careful reading of Acts with an open mind will show just that.

Drake

Yes, I agree that the discussion on this forum dismissing the "Jerusalem principle" has not been helpful or enlightening to me. I do agree that there is a rush to condemn any teaching that WL gave.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think I have been every bit as strong and favorable to Jame's ministry as anyone on this forum, but I don't see where Afazio "throws him under the bus".

The reality is that Peter had a major failing, Paul had a major failing and James also had a major failing. Each failing became critical to their respective ministry.

Paul saw the Body of Christ as a result, Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both Jews and Gentiles as a result, and James saw how to deal with the danger of a false prophet.

Great points, ZNP.

Every one in the LC and without needs to hear this.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
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Where do we find that little booklet? I might not pray-read it, but would like to read it.