Forgiveness

Trapped · 10-21-2018, 12:18 AM

There is a lot I could say on this topic but will put down a few thoughts to start. In all my general examples I am referring to regular daily relationships with people/friends/Christians, rather than, say, a special one with a spouse. "Damage" or "hurt" spoken of is the deep wounds that inescapably occur in typical human life with fallen, proud, screwed up people (as opposed to physical abuse or anything truly serious like that).

1. 70 x 7. Lee states that 490 is a large enough number that the point is you will have lost count well before you get to it. I realized a month or so ago that 490, while large, is still a finite number. If it was supposed to be essentially infinite, that would have been very easy to state, and 70 x 7 just doesn't equal "infinite" or "boundless" for me.

2. In the LC I grew up under the thought that if someone hurts you and asks for forgiveness, and if you don't forgive them and can't let it go, then you (the one who is hurt) is the one who sins, and the one who hurt you is released and can go on with their life because they apologized and that's all that's expected of them. This has turned out to be a very difficult thing for me with many saints who think "I'm sorry" is enough to undo and erase their prolonged intentional belittling or disregarding, without their putting in the effort to make up for what they've said or undo the multifaceted damage they've done. Is this thought true?

3. I understand we are to forgive as our heavenly Father forgave. However, He forgives when we acknowledge/repent and confess, right? He doesn't forgive what we don't confess. How does this play out when you have people who have knowingly and intentionally hurt you and do not care or their "confession" is clearly not genuine? Are we still asked to forgive then? If yes, as I mentioned, then are we forgiven by the Lord for things we don't confess? If not, how could we then be held to a higher standard than even God if we are expected to do that?

4. On the cross Jesus prayed to the Father to forgive them because they know not what they are doing. This seems to be an example of Jesus forgiving ones who have not asked for it or repented. Are we expected to do the same to that level, and if so, where is that stated in the Bible?

5. Is there any example in the Bible of forgiveness but a change in relationship? The thing I struggle with the most is forgiving and then being expected to return to a heavily damaged relationship as if nothing had happened. Often times the relationship is so permanently changed and damaged, that forgiveness is one thing but what to do about the relationship going forward is completely another. Yes, I know to pray for the ones who have hurt me, yes I know we are to bless our enemies, but to be honest doing those things has never changed my heart towards them.

Ohio · 10-21-2018, 04:46 AM

I believe that all offenses and all apologies are not created equal. The apology must also match the offense. A two cent apology for a two dollar offense does not really work. The scope of the apology should also match the offense, e.g. a private apology for a private offense is normally adequate, but a public apology is needed for a public offense.

People are not robots, they tend to know how deeply the apology touches the heart. Words should convey that heartfelt conviction. A simple and flippant "sorry" does not work after one's life has been threatened. In the Bible examples, the Lord does use different dollar (shekel?) amounts to convey the various debts incurred by diverse offenses. The ones who owed more had a deeper repentance, and the ones forgiven more had a deeper appreciation and love.

Basic relationships in the LC system tended to suffer the most. Those relationships with headquarters required the most attention, while the ones with the saints were less important. The LC hierarchy was often on full display. When looking "up" the hierarchy, one paid more attention that his apology was completely adequate, but when looking "down" the hierarchy, the same care was not afforded. Some brothers were more "brother" than other brothers. I don't think this brown-nosing man-pleasing side of apologies and forgiveness is pleasing to the Lord.

Sometimes forgiveness is a life-long struggle, especially when you know that an adequate apology will never come. Forgiveness then becomes a decision you must make in the Lord's presence. Often this decision needs to be restated because the pain resurfaces. This is crucial because unforgiveness hurts the "unforgiver" more than the offender. You feel you have been wronged, and are owed a debt that that will never be paid. In these cases, one must ask the Lord, sometimes repeatedly, that He will make up this debt to you with His love and grace.

Retaliation, though appealing on many levels, is not an option for those following the Lord. During one particularly egregious offense, the Lord actually visited me and told me specifically that, "vengeance is Mine, I will repay." It completed stopped me from taking further action. Praise Him.

Nell · 10-21-2018, 06:41 AM

Trapped,

Possibly the missing piece is "repentance".

"I'm sorry" is sometimes sufficient, but is very often an expression of regret by the offender telling you how they feel about what they did. This may be sufficient in some matters but worthless in others.

When someone repents, genuinely repents, their behavior changes. They stop hurting you (whoever).

I'm sure you've seen and/or heard accounts of an abusive marriage partner who beats their spouse every night, then "apologizes" every morning. There are actual shelters for women (mostly) who are in this situation. It's in our nature to try to "fix" someone who hurts us because we love them. When they apologize in tears and say they will never hurt you again, we believe them, forgive them, and give them 489 more chances. Then in the evening, the abuse cycle begins again. Staying in the "relationship" empowers them to continue their abuse because they count on your forgiveness.

Bottom line, abusive behavior toward another person in the secular realm is unacceptable. At some point, you have a decision to make...walk away or not. Abusive behavior of one Christian toward another in the spiritual realm, plays on your emotions in another way. It falls on the abused Christian to forgive, while the abusive Christian says "I'm sorry" but does not change their behavior. Just as in the example above, you forgive them and they use it against you. This is a serious problem and they have need of much more help than you (likely) can provide. They need serious psychiatric help. They are lying to themselves and others.

You can't fix this problem. It's not your job, nor is it within the realm of your capabilities. Forgive them from a distance. Run! This is why people "leave the church". That is, leave the Local Church. The Local Church takes away your voice. It takes away your right to say "NO". God gave you freedom to choose.

Remember the brother in Corinth who was living in fornication with his father's wife? The church was admonished to give him over to Satan for the ultimate salvation of his soul. This was the only way the church could help this sinning brother. This is extreme, and is evidence of a problem that the entire church could not fix and Paul makes it clear that it was not their job.

Remember the classic Witness Lee "garlic room" example? You become "nose blind" and can't smell the garlic as long as you are in the room. Once you get out of the garlic room and smell the fresh air, the stench of the garlic becomes obvious.

I hope this helps--
Nell

byHismercy · 10-21-2018, 04:25 PM

I agree with Nell. Forgive from a distance. When old wounds come back to the surface and I feel pain or anger afresh, I just confess my damaged, unloving heart to the Lord each and every time, and I agree with Him, and declare my forgiveness toward the offender all over again. This is the best I can do. Over time, I believe the Lord has been faithful to heal me, slowly, of these old wounds.

In recent months, I had the opportunity to converse with one sister who had hurt us deeply when she closed the door of communication to us last year. While she has determined to allow fellowship between us.....unfortunately it the LC brand of fellowship. She will not allow me to speak the truth if she deems it negative toward Lee(it is), neither will she acknowledge nor respond to anything I speak. She very effectively talks over and past me as if I don't exist. So the offense is simply ongoing. I had to walk away. That doesn't let me off the hook for my forgiveness towards her (them, really) because that forgiveness has to be before the Lord....it is towards them, but between the Lord and I. He forgave me ALL, and I believe He wants me to release ALL. In my decision to walk away from these brothers and sisters, I struggled. I do not want to be found guilty of what they do.

I took Romans 16:17 as His instruction to me.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.

Member when the oldest Duggar son was found to be committing egregious sins against his wife and kids? Months later, the Lord showed me I was holding those offenses against that brother, who has absolutely nothing to do with me.....I had to bow before the Lord and repent, and forgive him....I had not even been aware of this 'unforgiveness' hiding in my being until that moment in prayer. Many times, the offender will not be repentant, and in fact, if they are unsaved, may never turn, nor apologise to you.....I still believe we are called to forgive....ask the Lord to supply this forgiveness in you....didn't He supply the apostle to call the Lord to forgive those stoning him to death, in the act of it? Someone help me, who was that apostle? God is able....while we may not be. He would not require something of us we cannot do! That would be unrighteous! If He lives in you, He is the Righteous God, the One able to forgive....ask Him. God bless you!

Nell · 10-21-2018, 08:38 PM

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

byHismercy · 10-22-2018, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Yes, Stephen. Thanks Nell. This act of forgiveness was surely out from the Lord, supplied to Stephen by Him...

countmeworthy · 10-22-2018, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I agree with Nell. Forgive from a distance. When old wounds come back to the surface and I feel pain or anger afresh, I just confess my damaged, unloving heart to the Lord each and every time, and I agree with Him, and declare my forgiveness toward the offender all over again. This is the best I can do. Over time, I believe the Lord has been faithful to heal me, slowly, of these old wounds.

In recent years when old wounds come back to haunt me, I pray "Have mercy on them for You had mercy on me. Forgive them for You forgave me." This prayer has helped me to forgive them and put the memories behind me. I think it is because in my natural self I can't forgive but with the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus does the forgiving from my spirit.

I often say, while I forgive (through the Spirit of course) those who have wronged me, it doesn't mean I want them back in my life. I pray they get right with the Lord for their sake and to shame the devil giving GOD all the Glory and Praise for the work of Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

Quote:

He forgave me ALL, and I believe He wants me to release ALL. In my decision to walk away from these brothers and sisters, I struggled. I do not want to be found guilty of what they do.

Eventually, the Holy Spirit will shine His Glory Light on them and they will either repent for their treatment orrr and I will leave it there for it is between the JUDGE and them.

Great insight! Great post!
Blessings

byHismercy · 10-23-2018, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

In recent years when old wounds come back to haunt me, I pray "Have mercy on them for You had mercy on me. Forgive them for You forgave me." This prayer has helped me to forgive them and put the memories behind me. I think it is because in my natural self I can't forgive but with the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus does the forgiving from my spirit.

I often say, while I forgive (through the Spirit of course) those who have wronged me, it doesn't mean I want them back in my life. I pray they get right with the Lord for their sake and to shame the devil giving GOD all the Glory and Praise for the work of Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

Eventually, the Holy Spirit will shine His Glory Light on them and they will either repent for their treatment orrr and I will leave it there for it is between the JUDGE and them.

Great insight! Great post!
Blessings

Yes, this is good, Countmeworthy!
Forgiveness is the hardest thing for believers, I think...it is sooo easy to hate someone who damages you, especially intentionally! And you do not even have to try, or expend any energy to be angry or hold a grudge, it seems like. But.....I prefer the blessing from the throne of Jesus!! And in my experience, He is so faithful to help, to bless, to supply, to be forgiveness for us, when we do our best to follow His wishes, His commands to us! Tellin' you, that is where it's at! The obedient life is THE life! May He call us all to obedience, to rest in His obedience to His death on the cross! and to remain at His feet, looking steadfastly at His face like Stephen.
byHismercy

10-21-2018, 12:18 AM	#1
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Forgiveness There is a lot I could say on this topic but will put down a few thoughts to start. In all my general examples I am referring to regular daily relationships with people/friends/Christians, rather than, say, a special one with a spouse. "Damage" or "hurt" spoken of is the deep wounds that inescapably occur in typical human life with fallen, proud, screwed up people (as opposed to physical abuse or anything truly serious like that). 1. 70 x 7. Lee states that 490 is a large enough number that the point is you will have lost count well before you get to it. I realized a month or so ago that 490, while large, is still a finite number. If it was supposed to be essentially infinite, that would have been very easy to state, and 70 x 7 just doesn't equal "infinite" or "boundless" for me. 2. In the LC I grew up under the thought that if someone hurts you and asks for forgiveness, and if you don't forgive them and can't let it go, then you (the one who is hurt) is the one who sins, and the one who hurt you is released and can go on with their life because they apologized and that's all that's expected of them. This has turned out to be a very difficult thing for me with many saints who think "I'm sorry" is enough to undo and erase their prolonged intentional belittling or disregarding, without their putting in the effort to make up for what they've said or undo the multifaceted damage they've done. Is this thought true? 3. I understand we are to forgive as our heavenly Father forgave. However, He forgives when we acknowledge/repent and confess, right? He doesn't forgive what we don't confess. How does this play out when you have people who have knowingly and intentionally hurt you and do not care or their "confession" is clearly not genuine? Are we still asked to forgive then? If yes, as I mentioned, then are we forgiven by the Lord for things we don't confess? If not, how could we then be held to a higher standard than even God if we are expected to do that? 4. On the cross Jesus prayed to the Father to forgive them because they know not what they are doing. This seems to be an example of Jesus forgiving ones who have not asked for it or repented. Are we expected to do the same to that level, and if so, where is that stated in the Bible? 5. Is there any example in the Bible of forgiveness but a change in relationship? The thing I struggle with the most is forgiving and then being expected to return to a heavily damaged relationship as if nothing had happened. Often times the relationship is so permanently changed and damaged, that forgiveness is one thing but what to do about the relationship going forward is completely another. Yes, I know to pray for the ones who have hurt me, yes I know we are to bless our enemies, but to be honest doing those things has never changed my heart towards them.

10-21-2018, 04:46 AM	#2
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: Forgiveness I believe that all offenses and all apologies are not created equal. The apology must also match the offense. A two cent apology for a two dollar offense does not really work. The scope of the apology should also match the offense, e.g. a private apology for a private offense is normally adequate, but a public apology is needed for a public offense. People are not robots, they tend to know how deeply the apology touches the heart. Words should convey that heartfelt conviction. A simple and flippant "sorry" does not work after one's life has been threatened. In the Bible examples, the Lord does use different dollar (shekel?) amounts to convey the various debts incurred by diverse offenses. The ones who owed more had a deeper repentance, and the ones forgiven more had a deeper appreciation and love. Basic relationships in the LC system tended to suffer the most. Those relationships with headquarters required the most attention, while the ones with the saints were less important. The LC hierarchy was often on full display. When looking "up" the hierarchy, one paid more attention that his apology was completely adequate, but when looking "down" the hierarchy, the same care was not afforded. Some brothers were more "brother" than other brothers. I don't think this brown-nosing man-pleasing side of apologies and forgiveness is pleasing to the Lord. Sometimes forgiveness is a life-long struggle, especially when you know that an adequate apology will never come. Forgiveness then becomes a decision you must make in the Lord's presence. Often this decision needs to be restated because the pain resurfaces. This is crucial because unforgiveness hurts the "unforgiver" more than the offender. You feel you have been wronged, and are owed a debt that that will never be paid. In these cases, one must ask the Lord, sometimes repeatedly, that He will make up this debt to you with His love and grace. Retaliation, though appealing on many levels, is not an option for those following the Lord. During one particularly egregious offense, the Lord actually visited me and told me specifically that, "vengeance is Mine, I will repay." It completed stopped me from taking further action. Praise Him. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

10-21-2018, 06:41 AM	#3
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: Forgiveness Trapped, Possibly the missing piece is "repentance". "I'm sorry" is sometimes sufficient, but is very often an expression of regret by the offender telling you how they feel about what they did. This may be sufficient in some matters but worthless in others. When someone repents, genuinely repents, their behavior changes. They stop hurting you (whoever). I'm sure you've seen and/or heard accounts of an abusive marriage partner who beats their spouse every night, then "apologizes" every morning. There are actual shelters for women (mostly) who are in this situation. It's in our nature to try to "fix" someone who hurts us because we love them. When they apologize in tears and say they will never hurt you again, we believe them, forgive them, and give them 489 more chances. Then in the evening, the abuse cycle begins again. Staying in the "relationship" empowers them to continue their abuse because they count on your forgiveness. Bottom line, abusive behavior toward another person in the secular realm is unacceptable. At some point, you have a decision to make...walk away or not. Abusive behavior of one Christian toward another in the spiritual realm, plays on your emotions in another way. It falls on the abused Christian to forgive, while the abusive Christian says "I'm sorry" but does not change their behavior. Just as in the example above, you forgive them and they use it against you. This is a serious problem and they have need of much more help than you (likely) can provide. They need serious psychiatric help. They are lying to themselves and others. You can't fix this problem. It's not your job, nor is it within the realm of your capabilities. Forgive them from a distance. Run! This is why people "leave the church". That is, leave the Local Church. The Local Church takes away your voice. It takes away your right to say "NO". God gave you freedom to choose. Remember the brother in Corinth who was living in fornication with his father's wife? The church was admonished to give him over to Satan for the ultimate salvation of his soul. This was the only way the church could help this sinning brother. This is extreme, and is evidence of a problem that the entire church could not fix and Paul makes it clear that it was not their job. Remember the classic Witness Lee "garlic room" example? You become "nose blind" and can't smell the garlic as long as you are in the room. Once you get out of the garlic room and smell the fresh air, the stench of the garlic becomes obvious. I hope this helps-- Nell Last edited by Nell; 10-21-2018 at 09:50 AM.

10-21-2018, 04:25 PM	#4
byHismercy Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 439	Re: Forgiveness I agree with Nell. Forgive from a distance. When old wounds come back to the surface and I feel pain or anger afresh, I just confess my damaged, unloving heart to the Lord each and every time, and I agree with Him, and declare my forgiveness toward the offender all over again. This is the best I can do. Over time, I believe the Lord has been faithful to heal me, slowly, of these old wounds. In recent months, I had the opportunity to converse with one sister who had hurt us deeply when she closed the door of communication to us last year. While she has determined to allow fellowship between us.....unfortunately it the LC brand of fellowship. She will not allow me to speak the truth if she deems it negative toward Lee(it is), neither will she acknowledge nor respond to anything I speak. She very effectively talks over and past me as if I don't exist. So the offense is simply ongoing. I had to walk away. That doesn't let me off the hook for my forgiveness towards her (them, really) because that forgiveness has to be before the Lord....it is towards them, but between the Lord and I. He forgave me ALL, and I believe He wants me to release ALL. In my decision to walk away from these brothers and sisters, I struggled. I do not want to be found guilty of what they do. I took Romans 16:17 as His instruction to me. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them. Member when the oldest Duggar son was found to be committing egregious sins against his wife and kids? Months later, the Lord showed me I was holding those offenses against that brother, who has absolutely nothing to do with me.....I had to bow before the Lord and repent, and forgive him....I had not even been aware of this 'unforgiveness' hiding in my being until that moment in prayer. Many times, the offender will not be repentant, and in fact, if they are unsaved, may never turn, nor apologise to you.....I still believe we are called to forgive....ask the Lord to supply this forgiveness in you....didn't He supply the apostle to call the Lord to forgive those stoning him to death, in the act of it? Someone help me, who was that apostle? God is able....while we may not be. He would not require something of us we cannot do! That would be unrighteous! If He lives in you, He is the Righteous God, the One able to forgive....ask Him. God bless you!

10-21-2018, 08:38 PM	#5
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: Forgiveness Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.