Self serving doctrine of Lee

byHismercy · 09-04-2018, 05:05 PM

Hi saints,

I would like to open a discussion about doctrines we were given via WL which are questionable and what I now see as self serving. There is one in particular that I have in mind, but if anyone has others, please include those as well.

To start, is their teaching against friendship. When I first heard this I was very young, very new christian, and my spirit REJECTED this teaching immediately. I did not understand at that time how much those around me believed into every word that proceeds from the 'mouth of the oracle'....I don't understand how or why they see friendship as a major negative, where this teaching comes from in scripture, if they have any scriptural basis for this at all, and I would love to hear other believers genuine opinion on this teaching.

It seems like this doctrine comes out of thin air, and my question is, does anybody else suspect this is perpetuated to serve the function of cutting saints off from each other quickly and without feeling, if one is perceived as 'negative' towards Lee? Does it serve the divisions practiced by LCers....and could Lee really be that nefarious? Am I way off base, here?

The scripture that comes to me is about the last days....the Lord said they would be without natural affection. This, to me, is a refutation of such a teaching....

Recently, a LC sister whom I had regarded as a very dear friend, one who had cut us off months ago, came back, claiming to be completely open to fellowship, with one caveat, that I not speak anything 'negative' about her beliefs, that I close my mouth and remain silent on all points regarding questionable doctrine. I was unable to submit to her conditions for fellowship. Actually, I'm pretty sure she didn't hear anything negative since she simply shouted my name in a threatening tone throughout the entire conversation....she was one who promptly cut me off after I disagreed with the Lee teaching contrary to friendship, and declared, that we were, in fact friends! Her disdain for this concept was abundantly clear in our recent conversation, if it could be called a conversation. Conversation implies two people speaking and hearing one another. That didn't happen. I am so blown away at the fact that I never saw this attitude until I had a disagreement with Lee....then the dam broke, so to speak.

Why do they view friendship as natural, and do they really equate it with the flesh, which in turn is Satan?

Anyone for it or against it...and scriptural support would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance...

awareness · 09-04-2018, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints,

I would like to open a discussion about doctrines we were given via WL which are questionable and what I now see as self serving. There is one in particular that I have in mind, but if anyone has others, please include those as well.

To start, is their teaching against friendship. When I first heard this I was very young, very new christian, and my spirit REJECTED this teaching immediately. I did not understand at that time how much those around me believed into every word that proceeds from the 'mouth of the oracle'....I don't understand how or why they see friendship as a major negative, where this teaching comes from in scripture, if they have any scriptural basis for this at all, and I would love to hear other believers genuine opinion on this teaching.

It seems like this doctrine comes out of thin air, and my question is, does anybody else suspect this is perpetuated to serve the function of cutting saints off from each other quickly and without feeling, if one is perceived as 'negative' towards Lee? Does it serve the divisions practiced by LCers....and could Lee really be that nefarious? Am I way off base, here?

I'm sure Nee and Lee learned in China how disruptive friendships were to their movements.

Still, the very glue of their togetherness, is also behind friendships : That humans are social critters.

So, those I met in the LC, and friends I came in with, and brought in, that I wasn't allowed to be friends with in the LC, some of them, are life long friends now today.

I can't tell you where that crazy rule came from -- prolly China -- but I can tell you what it's all about.

In theory, that which was behind it was the same thing behind the burning's : that our hearts wouldn't be attached to anything but Christ.

And that was fine, until it became : attached to anything but Lee and his ministry. That became a real bone of contention between me and the Leeite's, which happened to be the elders, and their sycophants (who got to have friendships, or so it looked). The contention being just that : heart attached to only Christ ... OR ... heart attached to Lee. I argued Christ, but got the boot for it. And others today, some 3 and 4 years later also got the boot for taking a stand for Christ. Two of them, as I've mentioned, were elders when I was in the LC.

So I remember years later going down from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami, to help one of them, after he got the boot, to help him (and other not friend friends) fix his roof after hurricane Andrew.

On his roof I bumped into Bill Mallon. In talking to him a non-friend brother came up, that I use to lead service groups with. Long short of it, I got the brothers phone number and called him.

Turned out he was in Maine, and fresh out of the LC. He was not only forced out of the LC, the elders also made his wife divorce him, and take his kids, all over Witness Lee.

He was totally heart broken. So to get away he came to Ft. Lauderdale, and we became friends.

So don't worry about that silly rule. We're social animals. It's in our makeup. We need it like we need food, water, and air. It's a biological imperative. And if we're fortunate, friendships will happen. Think of David and Jonathan. And even Jesus had friends.

Ohio · 09-04-2018, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

In theory, that which was behind it was the same thing behind the burning's : that our hearts wouldn't be attached to anything but Christ.

And that was fine, until it became : attached to anything but Lee and his ministry.

One day, years ago, I started thinking about everyone and everything I had been warned about in the LC's, and I considered who exactly could I really trust. Who could I safely trust? According to Lee's teachings -- Can't trust my family. Can't even trust my own wife. Can't trust my kids. Can't trust my elders. Can't trust the brothers in Cleveland. Can't trust my own understanding of scripture. Can't trust any Christians outside the LC. Can't trust any Christians inside the LC.

So I concluded that the only one I could safely trust was Witness Lee. At least that's what he had taught me for years.

How sick is that?

Today I don't trust a single thing Lee taught me -- unless it can be independently corroborated. But I can trust a lot of other people in my life. Thank the Lord.

Trapped · 09-04-2018, 09:55 PM

My response will come from the perspective of a church kid hearing this thought from a very young age.

There are also two lines - friends outside the church and friends in the church.

Friends outside the church
As a church kid, I was taught incessantly that having friends is bad. This was contrasted with having companions in the church as good. The thought behind it was "being unequally yoked”. The fear-tactic used was that all non-LC friends your age are inevitably into drugs, sex, and alcohol, while all LC people your age are not. So if you had friends or any close relationships outside of the church, they would inexorably draw you away from the Lord into the realm of whatever those friends outside the church were doing. You would get pulled "out of the ark".

The problem is the LC put a heavy blanket kibosh on ALL non-LC friends, which is like saying "some dogs bite so let’s stay away from all dogs ever for all time". Well, actually the truth is it’s the parents' job is to vet the friends and make sure they are people with a level head and who are not inclined to get into trouble. The concept that “friends = bad” is the wrong concept and the wrong teaching. This was realized and admitted years ago by the ones in the Southern California Young People's Work as a mini "we were wrong" moment (I heard a message on it passed around years later), where they realized if young people in the church don't have any friends outside the church, then the logical source for gospel contacts at that age is also eradicated. So they changed their tune, unfortunately not with the mental health of the young people in mind, but for the sake of the growth of the LCs.

I think the message should have been more like “choose your friends wisely”. This goes along with the thought that “you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with”. Of course it is an important matter who our friends are, because, especially as young people, they can become big determiners of our actions and situations. So rather than “friends are bad” it really should be “choose the right friends.” What if your friends were 4.0+ GPA, A+ students, diligent members of the band, high achievers, involved in positive school activities? Are they “bad”? This creates the bizarre scenario which marked my childhood of positive high achieving kids reaching out to me to try to be my friend and me dancing around not able to explain why I couldn’t connect back. The “friends” I had (I use quotes not to denigrate them, but to represent the mental wall I could never breakthrough to really enjoy the friendships) were essentially the ones that any parent would pray that their children would have. And yet I never could shake the weight that the friends were snatching their claws at me to drag me into the pits of hell. When the reality was they were just nice kids from nice homes who liked me and wanted to hang out with me. To this day I see that they all still hang out together, but because I didn’t have the opportunity and clear mentality to build up normal human friendships, I do not have them as friends as an adult, when I really, really wish I did. I genuinely have to work hard in talking to normal people “out there” to kill the thought that they are “bad people”, and am in the process of trying to make connections with humans for the first time in my life.

This teaching applied to children creates handicapped adults who cannot form relationships outside the local church.

Friends in the local church
I have less to say here, but the thought is that all our interactions have to go through the cross. “Nothing natural does the Body life allow”. I never really thought much about this side, but in considering why someone in Lee’s position would promulgate this thought, I can see that if there are no “natural friendships” then there are less likely to be honest conversations between saints where dissatisfaction or their true feelings are expressed. This way opinions, thoughts, ideas cannot be brought up because it is “soulish”. I really run out of steam to write much on this, but I just don’t see how anyone can have a normal life under this bizarre concept. How do you go on, for example, a hiking trip with another family unless they are your friends? At some point you are just a human being.

Drake · 09-05-2018, 05:22 AM

-1

Thanks Trapped for sharing your sincere and heartfelt experience. My kids, and all the ones of the parents I know, had friends outside the church life. Of course, there were some bad influences from those friends that resulted in permanent damage, yet I don’t blame the friends but rather the ruler of the age. I figured I’d rather deal with the influence while they were still with me rather than have them deal with it after they left on their own. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. In the end I decided a parent must make decisions in the best interest of their munchkins but how they fare later as an adult is mostly in their own hands.

Friendship in the church life will happen spontaneously. It’s not a negative thing unless or until it interferes with the relationship between members in the Body of Christ which is fellowship. Fellowship means each member gives and receives the same care toward one another. When friendships have a higher priority in the church life than fellowship then there will be problems. In the Body, Christ is every member so there is no higher relationship between members than fellowship.

Thx again,
Drake

awareness · 09-05-2018, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Thanks Trapped for sharing your sincere and heartfelt experience. My kids, and all the ones of the parents I know, had friends outside the church life. Of course, there were some bad influences from those friends that resulted in permanent damage, yet I don’t blame the friends but rather the ruler of the age. I figured I’d rather deal with the influence while they were still with me rather than have them deal with it after they left on their own. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. In the end I decided a parent must make decisions in the best interest of their munchkins but how they fare later as an adult is mostly in their own hands.

Friendship in the church life will happen spontaneously. It’s not a negative thing unless or until it interferes with the relationship between members in the Body of Christ which is fellowship. Fellowship means each member gives and receives the same care toward one another. When friendships have a higher priority in the church life than fellowship then there will be problems. In the Body, Christ is every member so there is no higher relationship between members than fellowship.

Thx again,
Drake

Brother Drake thanks so much for telling us a little about yourself. And now all is explained : You are not in the local church!!! ... of the Lee verity ... and certainly not in the local church I was in ... nor in the local church Lee started here in America. Your local church is better. Where is it? Maybe I can visit.

Trapped · 09-06-2018, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Thanks Trapped for sharing your sincere and heartfelt experience. My kids, and all the ones of the parents I know, had friends outside the church life. Of course, there were some bad influences from those friends that resulted in permanent damage, yet I don’t blame the friends but rather the ruler of the age. I figured I’d rather deal with the influence while they were still with me rather than have them deal with it after they left on their own. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. In the end I decided a parent must make decisions in the best interest of their munchkins but how they fare later as an adult is mostly in their own hands.

Friendship in the church life will happen spontaneously. It’s not a negative thing unless or until it interferes with the relationship between members in the Body of Christ which is fellowship. Fellowship means each member gives and receives the same care toward one another. When friendships have a higher priority in the church life than fellowship then there will be problems. In the Body, Christ is every member so there is no higher relationship between members than fellowship.

Thx again,
Drake

Hi Drake,

Thanks for your response to me about your experience in this area. I have a feeling to respond to you, not about your content but about the delivery. I am hesitant to do so, however, because I don't know you as a person and I don't know the best approach to convey this (as each of us receives communication differently). Please know that I do mean this respectfully and I'm sure there are shortcomings in what I've written below so I apologize for any and all of those.

Based on your language and the words you used, I do not believe that you have any intention of being dismissive. I do believe that you are simply describing your experience, which is valuable since it, bafflingly, so often stands in stark contrast to what many others have experienced.

However, I have noticed oftentimes posters respond with frustration to you, and I will be honest that I understand why they do.

I'll use a serious situation to try to explain. Please note that this is just for example only. What I describe below did not happen to me; it is just for illustration purposes.

Trapped: I was sexually abused in the church by a serving one for many years and as a result have trouble trusting anyone and am very isolated and fearful of anyone getting to close to me. I tried to get help from the elders but they dismissed my fears and told me to take the cross, which I did and suffered needlessly for many more years as a result before things got so bad I sought help elsewhere, even though for years I had heard all our problems can be solved in the church.

Drake: Thanks for sharing, Trapped. I was never abused and never experienced any of that or saw evidence of it. None of my serving ones were inappropriate with me. I grew up happily and do not have trouble trusting anyone and am not afraid of being close to people. There is no problem seeking professional help outside the church for serious matters such as this.

What both of us said in that illustration is true. Your experience in the illustration is true. The reason that type of response gets a rise out of people, however, I think is because of a few factors:

1. Your telling me you never experienced what I experienced lends itself to casting doubt on my experience, although I can tell that that is not your intention.
2. Your telling me that you never experienced what I experienced does not help at all. It is like throwing a boulder at an injured person's chest which then drops to the floor with a thud - what is an injured person supposed to do with that?
3. It makes someone who went through a difficult time feel even worse that not everyone went through that suffering and that they are the "lucky" one who are left to struggle.
4. Telling me something that is in opposition to everything I grew up with does nothing to help me after the fact. I was told (in the illustration) to take the cross and that all our problems can be solved in the church. Your telling me, long after the negative situation occurred, that it is okay to do the opposite of everything I was made to believe is another boulder to the chest. I can see that someone coming from your experience may think that telling me this would help me and “free me up” from the chains that bind, but the reality is there is actually no help rendered from that kind of statement.

Another example, is as follows:

Trapped: My son fought in the armed forces and died in combat. I have lived in the depths of despair since then and struggle to make it through each day.

Drake: My son never died in combat and came home safe and sound.

Both are true, but that type of response really ends up being a punch to the gut more than anything. If someone states they suffered, and someone else respond that they didn’t suffer, what is the suffering person supposed to do with that information? To someone who has endured a loss, at best it does not help and at worst it makes it worse.

Essentially, hearing that someone else didn't have a bad experience has no positive personal impact to the person who had a bad experience, besides being glad that there are some who go through the LC's unscathed.

I'm not sure how much anything I said is helpful, I'm just trying to bridge the disconnect that seems to occur when some posters feel you are being dismissive while you respond that you are simply posting your experience. I do see both sides, and am certainly not trying to squelch your right to post; I am just attempting to help if I can.

Thanks,

Trapped

UntoHim · 09-05-2018, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I never really thought much about this side, but in considering why someone in Lee’s position would promulgate this thought, I can see that if there are no “natural friendships” then there are less likely to be honest conversations between saints where dissatisfaction or their true feelings are expressed. This way opinions, thoughts, ideas cannot be brought up because it is “soulish”.

Great observation and evaluation Trapped! You pretty much nailed the Local Church of Witness Lee that most of us are familiar with. Witness Lee discouraged almost every natural, close human relationship. Why? Well you keenly hit upon the main reason - You see, close friends and family care about you, and naturally want to know and understand why you would want to spend all your waking hours reading, listening to or watching someone like Witness Lee. Why would an American young person want to dress, speak and act like a 70 year old Chinese fellow? Why would they blow off their mother's Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner with family (and leave her crying and hurt), and instead go sit inside a meeting hall day and night listening to the mysterious teachings of this religious guru?

You have provided the explanation of this phenomenon/dynamic in the Local Church. Of course nearly all current Local Church members will poo poo and dismiss what you experienced first hand, and usually claim you are just "bitter" or "ambitious for a position" or "poisoned" and other such garbage. Thank God that you have made your way out of this system of error which has inflicted so much damage on untold numbers of American young people over the years. May He continue to enlighten the eyes of your heart and understanding!
-

byHismercy · 09-05-2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

My response will come from the perspective of a church kid hearing this thought from a very young age.

There are also two lines - friends outside the church and friends in the church.

Friends outside the church
As a church kid, I was taught incessantly that having friends is bad. This was contrasted with having companions in the church as good. The thought behind it was "being unequally yoked”. The fear-tactic used was that all non-LC friends your age are inevitably into drugs, sex, and alcohol, while all LC people your age are not. So if you had friends or any close relationships outside of the church, they would inexorably draw you away from the Lord into the realm of whatever those friends outside the church were doing. You would get pulled "out of the ark".

The problem is the LC put a heavy blanket kibosh on ALL non-LC friends, which is like saying "some dogs bite so let’s stay away from all dogs ever for all time". Well, actually the truth is it’s the parents' job is to vet the friends and make sure they are people with a level head and who are not inclined to get into trouble. The concept that “friends = bad” is the wrong concept and the wrong teaching. This was realized and admitted years ago by the ones in the Southern California Young People's Work as a mini "we were wrong" moment (I heard a message on it passed around years later), where they realized if young people in the church don't have any friends outside the church, then the logical source for gospel contacts at that age is also eradicated. So they changed their tune, unfortunately not with the mental health of the young people in mind, but for the sake of the growth of the LCs.

I think the message should have been more like “choose your friends wisely”. This goes along with the thought that “you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with”. Of course it is an important matter who our friends are, because, especially as young people, they can become big determiners of our actions and situations. So rather than “friends are bad” it really should be “choose the right friends.” What if your friends were 4.0+ GPA, A+ students, diligent members of the band, high achievers, involved in positive school activities? Are they “bad”? This creates the bizarre scenario which marked my childhood of positive high achieving kids reaching out to me to try to be my friend and me dancing around not able to explain why I couldn’t connect back. The “friends” I had (I use quotes not to denigrate them, but to represent the mental wall I could never breakthrough to really enjoy the friendships) were essentially the ones that any parent would pray that their children would have. And yet I never could shake the weight that the friends were snatching their claws at me to drag me into the pits of hell. When the reality was they were just nice kids from nice homes who liked me and wanted to hang out with me. To this day I see that they all still hang out together, but because I didn’t have the opportunity and clear mentality to build up normal human friendships, I do not have them as friends as an adult, when I really, really wish I did. I genuinely have to work hard in talking to normal people “out there” to kill the thought that they are “bad people”, and am in the process of trying to make connections with humans for the first time in my life.

This teaching applied to children creates handicapped adults who cannot form relationships outside the local church.

Friends in the local church
I have less to say here, but the thought is that all our interactions have to go through the cross. “Nothing natural does the Body life allow”. I never really thought much about this side, but in considering why someone in Lee’s position would promulgate this thought, I can see that if there are no “natural friendships” then there are less likely to be honest conversations between saints where dissatisfaction or their true feelings are expressed. This way opinions, thoughts, ideas cannot be brought up because it is “soulish”. I really run out of steam to write much on this, but I just don’t see how anyone can have a normal life under this bizarre concept. How do you go on, for example, a hiking trip with another family unless they are your friends? At some point you are just a human being.

I don't know what is up with the quote button, but Trapped, I wanted to respond to your post. Your insight is so valuable...

This might be a little off topic, but the Lord knows who to put into our lives. He is the perfect Father for all children.....a particular friend comes to my mind, my best friend growing up was a super smart, sweet chinese american girl who I spent the majority of junior high and high school hanging around with....she grew up to decide atheism was her system of belief, or non belief, and she was into so many things I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. Shoplifting, stripping, threesomes, the Magic Castle.....just so much....the Lord was faithful to call me towards Himself all those years, eventually bringing me out of my own 'chosen' sins, sinful activities. If anything, for me, he used my friendship to spotlight what I didn't want in my life. And my friend was no less dear to me, even though we stopped having much in common after a while.

But I just wanted to thank you for sharing your experience....I am so glad I was not raised inside the LC, and I thank God He kept us so distant as my children are growing up....btw, my friend is an attorney today...much more accomplished in many respects than I!

Ohio · 09-04-2018, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I would like to open a discussion about doctrines we were given via WL which are questionable and what I now see as self serving. There is one in particular that I have in mind, but if anyone has others, please include those as well.

To start, is their teaching against friendship. When I first heard this I was very young, very new christian, and my spirit REJECTED this teaching immediately. I did not understand at that time how much those around me believed into every word that proceeds from the 'mouth of the oracle'....I don't understand how or why they see friendship as a major negative, where this teaching comes from in scripture, if they have any scriptural basis for this at all, and I would love to hear other believers genuine opinion on this teaching.

It seems like this doctrine comes out of thin air, and my question is, does anybody else suspect this is perpetuated to serve the function of cutting saints off from each other quickly and without feeling, if one is perceived as 'negative' towards Lee? Does it serve the divisions practiced by LCers....and could Lee really be that nefarious? Am I way off base, here?

The scripture that comes to me is about the last days....the Lord said they would be without natural affection. This, to me, is a refutation of such a teaching....

Why do they view friendship as natural, and do they really equate it with the flesh, which in turn is Satan?

Before I left the LC, there were many things about Lee and LSM that I could just not understand, so the Lord led me to study Plymouth Brethren history for several years. Their "open" and objective historians faced the identical dilemmas as many of us were facing in the Midwest. Their history helped me understand our own. And helped me understand Lee. In an uncanny way, some of the same characters and events I was reading about in the 19th century were being duplicated in the 21st century. Amazing! Like the saying goes, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And we did.

The matter of Friendship. W. Lee called this "natural relationships." Lee's only justification against honey was a wild interpretation of honey spoiling the meal offering (Leviticus 2.11). Lee took this speculation from the Exclusive brethren. We should ask why in the world did the Brethren teach this? Simple. After their many excommunications for nonsensical reasons, the Brethren needed a way to hold onto their people. And I will tell you that some of their excommunications were both unbelievable and heartbreaking. Families and friends and churches were divided asunder by these mandates. If these "natural relationships" could be theologically undermined by false teachings, then their loyalties to the ministry could be maintained.

To prevent additional heartbreak and pain with subsequent excommunications, a new system of teaching had to address these difficulties. Their source for this new system of errors often was found in Leviticus. Interpretations of O.T. types were fabricated out of this air in order to justify their divisive actions, their evil behaviors, and to find remedies for member conflicts. LSM's websites were also filled with this nonsense, claiming ex-members were "lepers" whose church houses must be torn down and "re-plastered."

In II Timothy 3.1-5 (Apostle Paul's last writing), he addressed the situation among Christians, not the unsaved. Read this detailed description. It sounds exactly like the LC's I left. "Without natural affection" is just one of the many items included. Yet these same ones at LSM will jump up and down and proclaim their "oneness" and their "brotherly love." How can this be? They are blinded with pride. So sad.

byHismercy · 09-05-2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Before I left the LC, there were many things about Lee and LSM that I could just not understand, so the Lord led me to study Plymouth Brethren history for several years. Their "open" and objective historians faced the identical dilemmas as many of us were facing in the Midwest. Their history helped me understand our own. And helped me understand Lee. In an uncanny way, some of the same characters and events I was reading about in the 19th century were being duplicated in the 21st century. Amazing! Like the saying goes, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And we did.

The matter of Friendship. W. Lee called this "natural relationships." Lee's only justification against honey was a wild interpretation of honey spoiling the meal offering (Leviticus 2.11).
In II Timothy 3.1-5 (Apostle Paul's last writing), he addressed the situation among Christians, not the unsaved. Read this detailed description. It sounds exactly like the LC's I left. "Without natural affection" is just one of the many items included. Yet these same ones at LSM will jump up and down and proclaim their "oneness" and their "brotherly love." How can this be? They are blinded with pride. So sad.

Ohio, today I will look at llTim and try to find EB history, does anyone have a link?

Ohio · 09-05-2018, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, today I will look at llTim and try to find EB history, does anyone have a link?

A good place to start for Brethren History is with Ironsides' book which is now online.

Here is also a great collection of articles.
Please note that there is a lot here. I read this stuff for a few years. Much of what I read is not on this list, and I did not read everything on the list. The writers here are mostly objective about Darby and the Exclusives, iow they expose both the failures and the merits of the movement.

TLFisher · 09-05-2018, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints,

I would like to open a discussion about doctrines we were given via WL which are questionable and what I now see as self serving. There is one in particular that I have in mind, but if anyone has others, please include those as well.

Several others at the top of my mind are:
Noah principle (aka cover the brothers)
Deputy/Delegated Authority

JJ · 09-05-2018, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

To start, is their teaching against friendship.

If being friends with people is “natural” why does the Lord Jesus call us his friends https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...&version=NASB?

Trapped · 09-05-2018, 08:33 PM

One passage from Nee on friends (from The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Vol. 49, Messages for Building Up New Believers (2))I can't say I agree with it.
---------------
IV. REPLACING FRIENDS WITH BROTHERS IN THE CHURCH

A person must settle the matter of friendship during the first few weeks of his Christian life. He must change all his friends. You must tell all your friends what has happened to you. You may still maintain some friendship with them, but this friendship cannot be intimate in any way. You must change all your friends. You must learn to be a brother in the church and replace your former friends with brothers in the church.

We do not want to go to the extreme. We do not hate our former friends, and we do not want to ignore them altogether. But now our contact with them must be on a different level. Learn to testify to them and bring the Lord to them. We should be with them for only five minutes, fifteen minutes, half an hour, or an hour. Do not continue to sit among them. Do not talk about worldly things with them. Learn to take your stand and try your best to bring them to the Lord and the church. Testify to them and preach the gospel to them. Try your best to make them brothers and sisters in the church. Do not make friends or have friendship outside the circle of brothers.

I can assure you that a believer with too many unbelieving friends will surely be a defeated Christian. Even if he does not sin, he will become worldly. If a person loves the Lord, serves Him, and is faithful to Him and is exercised in himself, he cannot possibly have many worldly friends. If a person has many frivolous friends, it proves that he is sick.

We should not have unclean lips, and we should not dwell among people of unclean lips. In the sight of God, it is wrong to have unclean lips. It is equally wrong and requires equal confession to dwell among people of unclean lips. It is wrong for us to sin, and it also is wrong to dwell among sinners. We need to ask God for grace so that we ourselves do not sin. We need His grace so that we do not cultivate intimate friendship with sinners. You would be angry at someone if he said that you were a thief. Neither would it be a compliment if he said that you were in the company of thieves or that you were a friend of thieves.

The first question a person should ask before the Lord is about himself. The second question he should ask is about his friends. Next to the person himself, a person is represented by his acquaintances. If he wants to remain strong, he must not be careless about his acquaintances and friendships. The minute he becomes careless about his friends, he is defeated. Never be careless in this matter. You must leave all your former friends behind. Learn to make friends with those who fellowship in the church. Your communication with them should be something in the Lord. You should replace all of your former communication with communication that is in the Lord.

byHismercy · 09-06-2018, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

If being friends with people is “natural” why does the Lord Jesus call us his friends https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...&version=NASB?

JJ, yes, Jesus was human as well as divine, and He claimed us friends. The LC shunning of this God sanctioned concept is akin to my SDA friend shunning fish as food though Jesus saw it fit for feeding the crowds who came to listen to His words.

It is ok if you personally hate to eat fish or have or be a friend.....just don't tell everyone it is Gods' preference when it is not.

zeek · 09-06-2018, 12:31 PM

I too wish to thank Trapped for his testimony about the detrimental effect of Witness Lee's teaching on his ability to form normal friendships. The effect of this teaching on my children was one reason I left the Local Church Movement. Here's a sample of Witness Lee's sick teaching on the matter:

Question: You have sometimes said that we should avoid friendship. What is the difference between a friend and one we are built with? How do we know whom to open up to when we need to fellowship about a matter?

Answer: Fellowship is a matter of the whole Body. Friendship is a matter of personal affection. Affection easily arises among human beings when we are together for a short time. This is typified by honey, which was forbidden in the meal offering (Lev. 2:11); what is needed is salt (v. 13), which kills personal affection. Salt typifies the killing of the cross of Christ. Do not allow affection to spring up and lead to friendship. Affection sooner or later leads to corruption. Friendship has its seat in our emotions; fellowship is in the spirit (Phil. 2:1).

For all these years that I have been in the Lord's recovery, I have had no friends. However intimate the fellowship may be between a brother and me, it does not become a friendship; no personal affection is involved.

Learn to turn from your friendship in the emotion to the fellowship in your spirit.

As for the matter of being built up, the real building is based upon growth, not upon physical or emotional nearness. A physical building stays put because it is lifeless, but we often move from place to place. If we are built in, wherever we go we will have no problem with the saints, up to the measure of our growth. The building is related to our growth. Reject any thought that it involves some “flow,” attaching you to this one or that one. (Life Messages, Vol. 1 (#1-41), Chapter 35, Section 1)

This teaching runs counter to normal human well-being and healthy relationships particularly when applied to developing children. Psychological research overwhelmingly demonstrates the importance of friendships, and their positive impact on mental and physical health.

Evangelical · 09-06-2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

This teaching runs counter to normal human well-being and healthy relationships particularly when applied to developing children. Psychological research overwhelmingly demonstrates the importance of friendships, and their positive impact on mental and physical health.

Well, God's normal is different to the world's normal, in sexuality and relationships. I think it also applies to friendships.

UntoHim · 09-06-2018, 04:51 PM

The problem, Mr E, is that God's normal is radically different from Witness Lee's normal. God's normal is vividly described and displayed in his Word. It has also been displayed in and among his people in general for multiple thousands of years.

God's normal includes human relationships of all kinds. One of them is friendship. In fact, this notion of friendship is so vital and intrinsic to human existence and our relationship to God that the Lord Jesus made this stunning declaration:

"No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing;
but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you."
(John 15:15)

Witness Lee's reasons and motivation for discouraging friendships among his followers has become painfully obvious to anyone who is not still immersed in the culture of the religion he invented. His reasons and motivations have been comprehensively exposed on this very thread. Lee could not afford to have one drop of natural affection be directed at any person or persons outside of his person and work. All affections and energy was to be expended upon "the one apostle with the one ministry for the age". This dynamic is still alive and well in the Local Church of Witness Lee. May God have mercy.
-

awareness · 09-06-2018, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

.just don't tell everyone it is Gods' preference when it is not.

It was Lees' preference. Friendships divide loyalty to him.

09-04-2018, 09:55 PM	#4
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Self serving doctrine of Lee My response will come from the perspective of a church kid hearing this thought from a very young age. There are also two lines - friends outside the church and friends in the church. Friends outside the church As a church kid, I was taught incessantly that having friends is bad. This was contrasted with having companions in the church as good. The thought behind it was "being unequally yoked”. The fear-tactic used was that all non-LC friends your age are inevitably into drugs, sex, and alcohol, while all LC people your age are not. So if you had friends or any close relationships outside of the church, they would inexorably draw you away from the Lord into the realm of whatever those friends outside the church were doing. You would get pulled "out of the ark". The problem is the LC put a heavy blanket kibosh on ALL non-LC friends, which is like saying "some dogs bite so let’s stay away from all dogs ever for all time". Well, actually the truth is it’s the parents' job is to vet the friends and make sure they are people with a level head and who are not inclined to get into trouble. The concept that “friends = bad” is the wrong concept and the wrong teaching. This was realized and admitted years ago by the ones in the Southern California Young People's Work as a mini "we were wrong" moment (I heard a message on it passed around years later), where they realized if young people in the church don't have any friends outside the church, then the logical source for gospel contacts at that age is also eradicated. So they changed their tune, unfortunately not with the mental health of the young people in mind, but for the sake of the growth of the LCs. I think the message should have been more like “choose your friends wisely”. This goes along with the thought that “you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with”. Of course it is an important matter who our friends are, because, especially as young people, they can become big determiners of our actions and situations. So rather than “friends are bad” it really should be “choose the right friends.” What if your friends were 4.0+ GPA, A+ students, diligent members of the band, high achievers, involved in positive school activities? Are they “bad”? This creates the bizarre scenario which marked my childhood of positive high achieving kids reaching out to me to try to be my friend and me dancing around not able to explain why I couldn’t connect back. The “friends” I had (I use quotes not to denigrate them, but to represent the mental wall I could never breakthrough to really enjoy the friendships) were essentially the ones that any parent would pray that their children would have. And yet I never could shake the weight that the friends were snatching their claws at me to drag me into the pits of hell. When the reality was they were just nice kids from nice homes who liked me and wanted to hang out with me. To this day I see that they all still hang out together, but because I didn’t have the opportunity and clear mentality to build up normal human friendships, I do not have them as friends as an adult, when I really, really wish I did. I genuinely have to work hard in talking to normal people “out there” to kill the thought that they are “bad people”, and am in the process of trying to make connections with humans for the first time in my life. This teaching applied to children creates handicapped adults who cannot form relationships outside the local church. Friends in the local church I have less to say here, but the thought is that all our interactions have to go through the cross. “Nothing natural does the Body life allow”. I never really thought much about this side, but in considering why someone in Lee’s position would promulgate this thought, I can see that if there are no “natural friendships” then there are less likely to be honest conversations between saints where dissatisfaction or their true feelings are expressed. This way opinions, thoughts, ideas cannot be brought up because it is “soulish”. I really run out of steam to write much on this, but I just don’t see how anyone can have a normal life under this bizarre concept. How do you go on, for example, a hiking trip with another family unless they are your friends? At some point you are just a human being.

09-05-2018, 05:22 AM	#5
Drake Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,075	Re: Self serving doctrine of Lee -1 Thanks Trapped for sharing your sincere and heartfelt experience. My kids, and all the ones of the parents I know, had friends outside the church life. Of course, there were some bad influences from those friends that resulted in permanent damage, yet I don’t blame the friends but rather the ruler of the age. I figured I’d rather deal with the influence while they were still with me rather than have them deal with it after they left on their own. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. In the end I decided a parent must make decisions in the best interest of their munchkins but how they fare later as an adult is mostly in their own hands. Friendship in the church life will happen spontaneously. It’s not a negative thing unless or until it interferes with the relationship between members in the Body of Christ which is fellowship. Fellowship means each member gives and receives the same care toward one another. When friendships have a higher priority in the church life than fellowship then there will be problems. In the Body, Christ is every member so there is no higher relationship between members than fellowship. Thx again, Drake

09-05-2018, 08:33 PM	#15
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Self serving doctrine of Lee One passage from Nee on friends (from The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Vol. 49, Messages for Building Up New Believers (2))I can't say I agree with it. --------------- IV. REPLACING FRIENDS WITH BROTHERS IN THE CHURCH A person must settle the matter of friendship during the first few weeks of his Christian life. He must change all his friends. You must tell all your friends what has happened to you. You may still maintain some friendship with them, but this friendship cannot be intimate in any way. You must change all your friends. You must learn to be a brother in the church and replace your former friends with brothers in the church. We do not want to go to the extreme. We do not hate our former friends, and we do not want to ignore them altogether. But now our contact with them must be on a different level. Learn to testify to them and bring the Lord to them. We should be with them for only five minutes, fifteen minutes, half an hour, or an hour. Do not continue to sit among them. Do not talk about worldly things with them. Learn to take your stand and try your best to bring them to the Lord and the church. Testify to them and preach the gospel to them. Try your best to make them brothers and sisters in the church. Do not make friends or have friendship outside the circle of brothers. I can assure you that a believer with too many unbelieving friends will surely be a defeated Christian. Even if he does not sin, he will become worldly. If a person loves the Lord, serves Him, and is faithful to Him and is exercised in himself, he cannot possibly have many worldly friends. If a person has many frivolous friends, it proves that he is sick. We should not have unclean lips, and we should not dwell among people of unclean lips. In the sight of God, it is wrong to have unclean lips. It is equally wrong and requires equal confession to dwell among people of unclean lips. It is wrong for us to sin, and it also is wrong to dwell among sinners. We need to ask God for grace so that we ourselves do not sin. We need His grace so that we do not cultivate intimate friendship with sinners. You would be angry at someone if he said that you were a thief. Neither would it be a compliment if he said that you were in the company of thieves or that you were a friend of thieves. The first question a person should ask before the Lord is about himself. The second question he should ask is about his friends. Next to the person himself, a person is represented by his acquaintances. If he wants to remain strong, he must not be careless about his acquaintances and friendships. The minute he becomes careless about his friends, he is defeated. Never be careless in this matter. You must leave all your former friends behind. Learn to make friends with those who fellowship in the church. Your communication with them should be something in the Lord. You should replace all of your former communication with communication that is in the Lord.

09-06-2018, 12:31 PM	#17
zeek Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 4,223	Re: Self serving doctrine of Lee I too wish to thank Trapped for his testimony about the detrimental effect of Witness Lee's teaching on his ability to form normal friendships. The effect of this teaching on my children was one reason I left the Local Church Movement. Here's a sample of Witness Lee's sick teaching on the matter: Question: You have sometimes said that we should avoid friendship. What is the difference between a friend and one we are built with? How do we know whom to open up to when we need to fellowship about a matter? Answer: Fellowship is a matter of the whole Body. Friendship is a matter of personal affection. Affection easily arises among human beings when we are together for a short time. This is typified by honey, which was forbidden in the meal offering (Lev. 2:11); what is needed is salt (v. 13), which kills personal affection. Salt typifies the killing of the cross of Christ. Do not allow affection to spring up and lead to friendship. Affection sooner or later leads to corruption. Friendship has its seat in our emotions; fellowship is in the spirit (Phil. 2:1). For all these years that I have been in the Lord's recovery, I have had no friends. However intimate the fellowship may be between a brother and me, it does not become a friendship; no personal affection is involved. Learn to turn from your friendship in the emotion to the fellowship in your spirit. As for the matter of being built up, the real building is based upon growth, not upon physical or emotional nearness. A physical building stays put because it is lifeless, but we often move from place to place. If we are built in, wherever we go we will have no problem with the saints, up to the measure of our growth. The building is related to our growth. Reject any thought that it involves some “flow,” attaching you to this one or that one. (Life Messages, Vol. 1 (#1-41), Chapter 35, Section 1) This teaching runs counter to normal human well-being and healthy relationships particularly when applied to developing children. Psychological research overwhelmingly demonstrates the importance of friendships, and their positive impact on mental and physical health. __________________ Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86

09-06-2018, 04:51 PM	#19
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: Self serving doctrine of Lee The problem, Mr E, is that God's normal is radically different from Witness Lee's normal. God's normal is vividly described and displayed in his Word. It has also been displayed in and among his people in general for multiple thousands of years. God's normal includes human relationships of all kinds. One of them is friendship. In fact, this notion of friendship is so vital and intrinsic to human existence and our relationship to God that the Lord Jesus made this stunning declaration: "No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." (John 15:15) Witness Lee's reasons and motivation for discouraging friendships among his followers has become painfully obvious to anyone who is not still immersed in the culture of the religion he invented. His reasons and motivations have been comprehensively exposed on this very thread. Lee could not afford to have one drop of natural affection be directed at any person or persons outside of his person and work. All affections and energy was to be expended upon "the one apostle with the one ministry for the age". This dynamic is still alive and well in the Local Church of Witness Lee. May God have mercy. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

09-04-2018, 05:05 PM	#1
byHismercy Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 439	Self serving doctrine of Lee Hi saints, I would like to open a discussion about doctrines we were given via WL which are questionable and what I now see as self serving. There is one in particular that I have in mind, but if anyone has others, please include those as well. To start, is their teaching against friendship. When I first heard this I was very young, very new christian, and my spirit REJECTED this teaching immediately. I did not understand at that time how much those around me believed into every word that proceeds from the 'mouth of the oracle'....I don't understand how or why they see friendship as a major negative, where this teaching comes from in scripture, if they have any scriptural basis for this at all, and I would love to hear other believers genuine opinion on this teaching. It seems like this doctrine comes out of thin air, and my question is, does anybody else suspect this is perpetuated to serve the function of cutting saints off from each other quickly and without feeling, if one is perceived as 'negative' towards Lee? Does it serve the divisions practiced by LCers....and could Lee really be that nefarious? Am I way off base, here? The scripture that comes to me is about the last days....the Lord said they would be without natural affection. This, to me, is a refutation of such a teaching.... Recently, a LC sister whom I had regarded as a very dear friend, one who had cut us off months ago, came back, claiming to be completely open to fellowship, with one caveat, that I not speak anything 'negative' about her beliefs, that I close my mouth and remain silent on all points regarding questionable doctrine. I was unable to submit to her conditions for fellowship. Actually, I'm pretty sure she didn't hear anything negative since she simply shouted my name in a threatening tone throughout the entire conversation....she was one who promptly cut me off after I disagreed with the Lee teaching contrary to friendship, and declared, that we were, in fact friends! Her disdain for this concept was abundantly clear in our recent conversation, if it could be called a conversation. Conversation implies two people speaking and hearing one another. That didn't happen. I am so blown away at the fact that I never saw this attitude until I had a disagreement with Lee....then the dam broke, so to speak. Why do they view friendship as natural, and do they really equate it with the flesh, which in turn is Satan? Anyone for it or against it...and scriptural support would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance...