Lee's errorous teaching concerns being in spirit and out of mind.

[Truthseeker]

I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.

What Brother Lee actually taught:

"For our spirit to be used and exercised in prayer is surely healthy for our spiritual life. But for our mind to be unfruitful and unused is absolutely unhealthy. In praying to the Lord, we must exercise our regenerated spirit and our renewed mind. Our mind should be set on our spirit (Romans 8:6) and should never be detached from it, even in our daily walk, needless to say in our prayer. Our prayer must be from our God-contacted and God-contacting spirit and through our sober and understanding mind, with clear and understandable words, that our prayer may touch God, nourish and strengthen ourselves, and build up others. " 1 Corinthians 14:14 footnote 1 Recovery Version

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

What Brother Lee actually taught:
"For our spirit to be used and exercised in prayer is surely healthy for our spiritual life. But for our mind to be unfruitful and unused is absolutely unhealthy. In praying to the Lord, we must exercise our regenerated spirit and our renewed mind. Our mind should be set on our spirit (Romans 8:6) and should never be detached from it, even in our daily walk, needless to say in our prayer. Our prayer must be from our God-contacted and God-contacting spirit and through our sober and understanding mind, with clear and understandable words, that our prayer may touch God, nourish and strengthen ourselves, and build up others. " 1 Corinthians 14:14 footnote 1 Recovery Version

Yet there's this:

Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
-o-
There's a life that's deeper than our mind. With experience of man yet so Divine.
It's a life that knows no bounds and with glory is crowned,
and with length and breadth and height unsearchable....

We didn't make this up. Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.
And you KNOW they wouldn't let us repeat anything Lee didn't teach.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.
.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.

We didn't make this up. Witness Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.

When brother Drake says "this is what Lee really taught" and quotes an LSM book for us, what Drake really means is "this is what Princeton-educated Ron Kangas, the chief editor at LSM, taught us in this book."

[aron]

Aside from what we might find on a printed page, offered as fig leaves for uneasy consciences, let's look at what was actually practiced:

In one place, the 'oracle of God' taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of hundreds of people, and in the many testimonies that followed, nobody got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, it seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain, please?"

Hundreds and even thousands would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Aside from what we might find on a printed page, offered as fig leaves for uneasy consciences, let's look at what was actually practiced:

In one place, the 'oracle of God' taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of hundreds of people, and in the many testimonies that followed, nobody got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, it seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain, please?"

Hundreds and even thousands would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.

....and what, pray tell, has that to do with this topic?.. ... you cite something irrelevant to the subject and then tie it in at the end thinking that it corroborates your argument?

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yet there's this:
Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
-o-
There's a life that's deeper than our mind. With experience of man yet so Divine.
It's a life that knows no bounds and with glory is crowned,
and with length and breadth and height unsearchable....

We didn't make this up. Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.
And you KNOW they wouldn't let us repeat anything Lee didn't teach.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.
.

Those are great songs... still sing them.

And yes, those are applicable because the challenge was and is not exercising the mind... we do that naturally as soon as we wake up in the morning.... ... rather, the challenge was and is exercising the spirit and setting the mind on the spirit. There is a life that is deeper than our mind! He's in our spirit!

Brother Lee never taught to abandon the mind.... quite the contrary... as can be seen in the footnote I cited for public consumption... to the same "public" that sings those songs (that he, just to be precise, did not actually pen, did he?) he states clearly we must engage the mind BUT..... big BUT..... not by itself... but set on the spirit.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Lee never taught to abandon the mind.... quite the contrary... as can be seen in the footnote I cited for public consumption... to the same "public" that sings those songs (that he, just to be precise, did not actually pen, did he?) he states clearly we must engage the mind BUT..... big BUT..... not by itself... but set on the spirit.

Drake

Lee taught us repeatedly not to have any opinion. The only way not to have any opinion is to abandon our mind, our thinking facility. Here's what the dictionary says about opinions:

Merriam-Webster definition of OPINION:

• 1: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter

• 2: approval, esteem

• 3: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge

• 4: a generally held view

Without opinions, a person is not a person. A person is a vegetable. Man is a constitution of opinions based on training, education, and life experiences. Who would marry a girl/guy without any opinions? Who would employ a person without opinions?

To have no opinion is not to think, not to use your mind, not to have the ability to reason. The Lord told Israel, "Come let us reason together." Obviously the Lord created us with a mind to reason, to think, and to develop opinions -- develop the right opinions about God, about the Bible, about life, etc.

What we should really be asking is why. Why did Lee want followers who did not think? What was he hiding? What did he not want us to know?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee taught us repeatedly not to have any opinion. The only way not to have any opinion is to abandon our mind, our thinking facility.

Without opinions, a person is not a person. A person is a vegetable. Man is a constitution of opinions based on training, education, and life experiences. Who would marry a girl/guy without any opinions? Who would employ a person without opinions?

What we should really be asking is why. Why did Lee want followers who did not think? What was he hiding? What did he not want us to know?

And, why is it that when Witness Lee had an idea, that was "recovered truth", but when anyone else had an idea it was "fallen human opinion"?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yet there's this:

Call! Call! Won't you call on His Name? He’s everything that’s real
And He’s always the same!
Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.
That’s the way to get to Jesus from here.

-o-

There's a life that's deeper than our mind. With experience of man yet so Divine.
It's a life that knows no bounds and with glory is crowned,
and with length and breadth and height unsearchable....



We didn't make this up. Lee TAUGHT it. We repeated it.
We SANG it. We beat each other over the head with it.
And you KNOW they wouldn't let us repeat anything Lee didn't teach.

Lee was a hypocrite. He taught one thing for public consumption but his practice did not match his preachin'. I heard it, in person, from the horse's mouth, for years, so you don't need to tell us what "Lee actually taught." We were there.

.

Nell is right; if "get out of your mind" were not the linchpin of Lee's system this song wouldn't be sung. Songs were created and disseminated as means to inculcate the newbies with LC teachings. This song didn't come from someone's imagination, it came from a Lee message. "Get out of your mind and get your spirit in gear" was tied to "call, call" . . . nothing wrong with calling on the name of the Lord Jesus, nor calling, Abba, Father. But the repetition neatly aligned with Lee's control programme of enforced mindlessness. Don't think, just repetitively chant this week's slogan or 'special words' and voila you're 'in spirit'. The warm fuzzies you feel from the crowd just reinforces it. You are on your way! Eternal bliss awaits! Just call, brother!

And what occurs if anyone were to actually think, and say, "Now wait a minute - why are you teaching this from Psalm 16 when you teach differently in Psalm 18?" Or, "why are you promoting this in Psalm 62 and the diametric opposite in Psalm 39?" Or, "how come women were 'co-workers' in 1922 and 1932 but not in 1972 or 1982?" Or, etc etc. . . "Get out of your mind, brother" is the answer. Or if they persist in attempting to think, they're called "dark" and so forth. Is this an environment that encourages people to think soberly?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Nell is right; if "get out of your mind" were not the linchpin of Lee's system this song wouldn't be sung. Songs were created and disseminated as means to inculcate the newbies with LC teachings. This song didn't come from someone's imagination, it came from a Lee message. "Get out of your mind and get your spirit in gear" was tied to "call, call" . . . nothing wrong with calling on the name of the Lord Jesus, nor calling, Abba, Father. But the repetition neatly aligned with Lee's control programme of enforced mindlessness. Don't think, just repetitively chant this week's slogan or 'special words' and voila you're 'in spirit'. The warm fuzzies you feel from the crowd just reinforces it. You are on your way! Eternal bliss awaits! Just call, brother!

And what occurs if anyone were to actually think, and say, "Now wait a minute - why are you teaching this from Psalm 16 when you teach differently in Psalm 18?" Or, "why are you promoting this in Psalm 62 and the diametric opposite in Psalm 39?" Or, "how come women were 'co-workers' in 1922 and 1932 but not in 1972 or 1982?" Or, etc etc. . . "Get out of your mind, brother" is the answer. Or if they persist in attempting to think, they're called "dark" and so forth. Is this an environment that encourages people to think soberly?

Well you could use your mind to read the Bible like that, but it sounds a look like asking Why does this fruit in the Garden look tastier than the rest? How come God said we can eat of any tree in the Garden but not this one, is it not just a tree like the rest?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well you could use your mind to read the Bible like that, but it sounds a look like asking Why does this fruit in the Garden look tastier than the rest? How come God said we can eat of any tree in the Garden but not this one, is it not just a tree like the rest?

Sounds like another misguided Lee teaching...”don’t ask questions. A question mark is in the shape of a snake.”

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I.e., ask questions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.

Well said.

No Christian minister in his right mind would ever teach people to "get out of their mind."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind.

What Drake quoted "for our mind to be unfruitful and unused is absolutely unhealthy. In praying to the Lord, we must exercise our regenerated spirit and our renewed mind" , it proves that this is a false statement.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies.

Here Truthseeker has confused matters of the flesh/spirit with practical instructions to the Corinthians about speaking and praying in foreign languages. In the Recovery everyone uses languages that others understand (or can learn) so Paul's words to the Corinthians do not apply.

To prove this we only need to consider the context which is speaking unintelligible words in church:

1 Cor 14:9 So also you, unless you give with the tongue a word easy to understand, how will what is being said be known?

"Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues." - only if they are unintelligible foreign words, which in the recovery they are not.

[aron]

Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?

What does that have to do with the topic of THIS thread??

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

What does that have to do with the topic of THIS thread??

Thread title says, "Lee's erroneous teaching, being in spirit & out of mind". You quoted Lee encouraging people to use their minds: I'm glad to raise questions whose answers seem to indicate otherwise. Or do you have a better answer? Seems to me, the best answer is, "Because in the LC, they've been conditioned not to think". Do you have another answer?

Here's another question: why is the supposed apostle of the age unqualified to be an elder in a local assembly per Paul's letter to Titus (1:6) and nobody in the LC seems to notice?

Until someone answers differently, I'll assume it's because no one there is able to think. Doesn't matter how big the elephant is in the room - nobody can notice it. In fact you seem bothered that I do notice - why is that? If the shoe fits, wear it.

Actually there are two possibilities, upon reflection.

1. Because nobody can think in the LC.
2. They actually can think but have to appear brainless, otherwise they might attract attention; you know, being seen as "independent" and all. Having an opinion. . . might get one marked out - a small step from there to being labeled "rebellious".

Hope this helps.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Thread title says, "Lee's erroneous teaching, being in spirit & out of mind". You quoted Lee encouraging people to use their minds: I'm glad to raise questions whose answers indicate otherwise. Or do you have a better answer? Seems to me, the best answer is, "Because in the LC, they've been conditioned not to think". Do you have a better answer?

Here's another question: why is the supposed apostle of the age unqualified to be an elder in a local assembly per Paul's letter to Titus (1:6) and nobody in the LC seems to notice?

Until someone fills in the blanks, I'll assume it's because nobody there is able to think. Doesn't matter how big the elephant is in the room. Nobody can notice it. In fact you seem bothered that I do - why is that? If the shoe fits, wear it.

Actually there are two possibilities, upon reflection.

1. Because nobody can think in the LC.
2. They actually can think but have to appear brainless, otherwise they might attract attention; you know, being seen as "independent" and all. Having an opinion. . . might get one marked out - a small step from there to being labeled "rebellious".

From my experience, neither of those are accurate.

All think and none I know of pretend not to. I don't think you think that either. It's just a convenient out for you.. sorta like.... oh, they're all just brain-dead unlike me, an enlightened fellow, 'nuff said...

At this point aron, your not even presenting a logical argument much less a compelling one. Admittedly, my expectations were recently reset about your contribution so I kind of got them up... seeing how you were going to bring in scholars, and languages, and historical perspectives throughout church history.. that sort of thing... but you haven't and probably never will but appear to be content that your contribution in these threads is boiled down to derogatory name-calling of brothers and cutesy unsubstantiated catch phrases which are irrelevant to the topics under discussion.

That is just my observation, but it bears no significance to you because I am one of those "brain-dead" local churchers.... and yet you will have your day in court, so to speak, to present your "if the shoe fits" argument before the Lord. I just hope you see your way through it before that day and that Matt 5:22 does not become your reality.

I really hope not brother.

Drake

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?

Maybe because they are looking at the positives and negatives?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Maybe because they are looking at the positives and negatives?

How come Lee could point out the negatives of Lutheranism - "daughters of the harlot &c" but none could point out the many negatives in the LC? Suddenly it was, "God sees no iniquity in Israel". The about-face was so rapid as to induce whiplash if you tried to keep pace.

Why could LSM "Affirm & Critique" fallen Christanity but no one could affirm & critique Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? How did perfection nestle so snugly on these two characters?

How? By the recipients & practitioners being "in spirit and out of mind" according to their home-brewed and self-focused metrics.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Why could LSM "Affirm & Critique" fallen Christanity but no one could affirm & critique Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?

Right. Why couldn't the functioning of all the members of the body include questioning Nee & Lee?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I am sure that all of you may be similar to Lee's teaching concerning being in the spirit all the time especially during praying and chanting worship hymns. But I have discovered in 1 corinthians 14: 14-16

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how shall he who fills the place of the unlearned in tongues say the Amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

Here, we can see the apostle Paul's teaching is contrary to Lee's.
Paul said if we just pray and sing in the spirit, these things could be equal to speaking in tongues. Consequently, foreign saints can't understand the message or prophecies. They can't be built up in the Church life. Apostle Paul taught us to pray and worship in spirit and in our mind at the same time whereas Lee taught us to be only in spirit and stay away from our mind. We can see very clearlythe mistakes in Lee's teaching. So, exercising our mind is allowed in the Church meeting. Exercising our minds is to interpret or make others saints understand your intentions and divine revelation. So, we should exercise our spirit and our mind together and put away Lee's mistakes right now.

Truthseeker, this is so good! 1 kings 3 v9 give therefore Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this Your so great a people.

This word is His word to his servants...and Lees' teaching just does not match....

[aron]

Why did Watchman Nee draw on 3,000 "christian classics" but the LC speaker on Sunday morning has to speak verbatim from this week's HWFMR?

If I notice this discrepancy how do you know if my mind is guided by the spirit or not? It seems that in the subjective its world of the LC, that is up to the subjective impression of the Big brother. If he likes your question, you are "in spirit"

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Why did Watchman Nee draw on 3,000 "christian classics" but the LC speaker on Sunday morning has to speak verbatim from this week's HWFMR?

If I notice this discrepancy how do you know if my mind is guided by the spirit or not? It seems that in the subjective its world of the LC, that is up to the subjective impression of the Big brother. If he likes your question, you are "in spirit"

So, you are an advocate for free-for-all meetings... anything can be said, anyone can be quoted, no framework, no order, you get to quote your Non-Christian 2nd Temple scholars, .... and where else is that permitted?

I mentioned before that prior to the use of HWMR in the prophesying meetings it resembled what you described.... there could be 20 people speaking on 20 different subjects. Very little order and little edification. Furthermore, those that tended to speak were ones who could compose... so there was still remnants of a class system and then there were those who could talk about their Aunt Petula for the whole time.

With the HWMR came some focus and order followed by everyone functioning... so the topic could be thoroughly reviewed and presented by any member... the format encourages “each one has”. Collectively, the whole assembly presents the whole message. The sharing of personal testimonials still happens, different topics are brought in, but the HWMR helped facilitate the transition from a few speakers to every one being able to function.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, you are an advocate for free-for-all meetings... anything can be said, anyone can be quoted, no framework, no order, you get to quote your Non-Christian 2nd Temple scholars, .... and where else is that permitted?

I mentioned before that prior to the use of HWMR in the prophesying meetings it resembled what you described.... there could be 20 people speaking on 20 different subjects. Very little order and little edification. Furthermore, those that tended to speak were ones who could compose... so there was still remnants of a class system and then there were those who could talk about their Aunt Petula for the whole time.

With the HWMR came some focus and order followed by everyone functioning... so the topic could be thoroughly reviewed and presented by any member... the format encourages “each one has”. Collectively, the whole assembly presents the whole message. The sharing of personal testimonials still happens, different topics are brought in, but the HWMR helped facilitate the transition from a few speakers to every one being able to function.

Drake

There are your two options, then: one is a "free-for-all" and the other is rigid adherence to HWFMR? This aligns with my observation of lack of thought in the LC. Oversimplify & hope no one notices.

Nee got to talk about whatever the spirit led. Why such latitude with one man, and all the rest have no freedom?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

There are your two options, then: one is a "free-for-all" and the other is rigid adherence to HWFMR?

I did not describe a rigid adherence.... you wanted me to but I opted to describe the reality instead.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, you are an advocate for free-for-all meetings... anything can be said, anyone can be quoted, no framework, no order, you get to quote your Non-Christian 2nd Temple scholars, .... and where else is that permitted?

I mentioned before that prior to the use of HWMR in the prophesying meetings it resembled what you described.... there could be 20 people speaking on 20 different subjects. Very little order and little edification. Furthermore, those that tended to speak were ones who could compose... so there was still remnants of a class system and then there were those who could talk about their Aunt Petula for the whole time.

With the HWMR came some focus and order followed by everyone functioning... so the topic could be thoroughly reviewed and presented by any member... the format encourages “each one has”. Collectively, the whole assembly presents the whole message. The sharing of personal testimonials still happens, different topics are brought in, but the HWMR helped facilitate the transition from a few speakers to every one being able to function.

Drake

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly . . . Are you saying that there needs to be a structure put on the meeting so sharing is done by everyone, but only within a certain prescribed form & context? (And that there is a real danger of "going off the rails" if truly open meetings were practiced?)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly . . . Are you saying that there needs to be a structure put on the meeting so sharing is done by everyone, but only within a certain prescribed form & context? (And that there is a real danger of "going off the rails" if truly open meetings were practiced?)

Glad you asked.

Mostly StG.... I am responding to a allegation of "control" using HWMR in the Lord's day morning prophesying meeting. The allegation is not accurate. "Anaheimians" are not out cruising the local churches looking for violators as aron suggests. Never seen that or anything close in 40+ years.

History: However, I was there before and after the HWMR.... the burden was to facilitate "each one has" according to 1 Corinthians 14:26 to build the Body of Christ.....as there was still a class system before HWMR where gifted 5 talented members would function, as would many 2 talented members... but the problem was with the majority, the 1 talented members not functioning and many, perhaps most, that came out of the clergy laity system were not used to functioning (it was the pastor who gets paid to preach was the inherent conditioning problem) ... Brother Lee spent a lot of time on this topic. Some gifted brothers were not totally comfortable with the idea but it was felt that if we enabled and encouraged five 1 talented members to rise up then their building of the Body would be just as effective as one functioning gifted brother.

And it proved to be true in my experience and observation.

The HMWR then was designed so that each day there is a reading from the ministry, scripture verses, maybe a hymn reference.. and then a few blank lines to write your inspiration for that day. By the end of the week, you would have accumulated a record of daily inspiration to compose a short and living testimony from how the Lord touched you that week. My experience was that when most of the members were on the same page in this way the cumulative light from every member functioning on that topic was much deeper. Anyone could share from something else but as long as the majority were in the fellowship of the same topic the prophesying meeting was richer, deeper, higher and that was because of the function from the 1 talented members who previously were pretty much silent.

Still, anyone could share from anything... but most realized the benefit by being in the same topic. That applied to the prophesying meeting. However, as I mentioned I was in a another locality last Lord's day and they were not using the HWMR.... they decided that something else was more beneficial for a month or two. They decided what the church needed in their locality.

Home meetings, young people's meetings, and other meetings and what they get into.... well, that just depends on what the ones caring for that meeting think in fellowship of course.

That is what is happening on the ground with HWMR ... not this big bad control mechanism that some here are suggesting.

Drake

I found this thread while searching to see if there had been discussion about getting out of your mind on this forum. I read through the thread and wanted to post a few comments.

1. Drake provided one excerpt where Lee taught that we should use our mind. Zeek, numerous posts later, provided multiple excerpts where Lee taught the opposite. Anyone who has been in the local church for a while would know that "get out of your mind" is taught and understood much more prevalently than "use your mind". Drake was gaslighting, acting as if the known teachings in the local church aren't really known by its members or former members. When zeek provided proof that Lee really did teach this, Drake conveniently was nowhere to be found in response to the evidence.

2. The reason I came to search on this forum was because I had also read the same verses that Truthseeker (the OP) read, and was amazed to see there actually was a portion in the Word that addressed the perils of not being in your mind.

1 Cor. 14:2-5, 13-20
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
18 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers, stop thinking like children.

Paul explains that uninterpreted tongues are from the spirit, but the mind is not involved (v. 14). He says that anyone who does this only builds up HIMSELF and NOT THE CHURCH (v. 4).

He says if you are praising God with your spirit (meaning, only your spirit, and not with your mind) then the other man is not edified (v. 17). Again, the church is not built up.

Paul discounts even ten thousand words in a tongue. Ten thousand words spoken in the context of "getting out of your mind and into your spirit" (v. 18). This sounds like much of prophesying meetings in the local churches. Ten thousand words spoken "out of their mind" and not much real building, edifying, or encouraging going on anymore.

So here we've got Paul the apostle clearly describing the situation of saints who get out of their mind and into their spirit, and he couldn't tell us any more plainly that this does not build up the church.

And the local churches think with this kind of teaching that they are the only place the church is being built?!