Apostles and Prophets - Biblical Basis for Claims

[JJ]

Watchman Née, Witness Lee, and Blended Brothers all assumed to be apostles and prophets. Some Christians follow others making similar claims. Does anyone have good articles discussing “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood” for anyone after the first century making such claims?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by JJ

Watchman Née, Witness Lee, and Blended Brothers all assumed to be apostles and prophets. Some Christians follow others making similar claims. Does anyone have good articles discussing “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood” for anyone after the first century making such claims?

This could be a short discussion.

Deuteronomy 18:19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

For example, if man does not become God, some folks will be in trouble.

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by JJ

Watchman Née, Witness Lee, and Blended Brothers all assumed to be apostles and prophets. Some Christians follow others making similar claims. Does anyone have good articles discussing “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood” for anyone after the first century making such claims?

Maybe start with the question - did Witness Lee claim to be an apostle?

Yet I don't think being an apostle or not is the main reason people are following Lee or Blended Brothers.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Maybe start with the question - did Witness Lee claim to be an apostle?

...

Irrelevant.

Yet another obvious attempt by Evangelical to change the subject, go off topic and construct a strawman, which he is so fond of doing.

The OP stated:

“Watchman Née, Witness Lee, and Blended Brothers all assumed to be apostles and prophets.” You don’t have to claim to be an apostle/prophet. If you demand to be treated like an apostle/prophet OR ELSE, your position is a de facto apostle or prophet.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

...Yet I don't think being an apostle or not is the main reason people are following Lee or Blended Brothers.

Also irrelevant to the OP. If you want to discuss “the main reason people follow” Nee, Lee, et al, start another thread and don’t troll this one.

Nell

[Evangelical]

I'm sorry but if Lee did not claim to be an apostle then this thread is not about Lee/Nee etc at all.

UntoHim said that Lee did not claim to be an apostle and rebuked people for calling him that. See the other thread on Orthodoxy:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Do you know that Witness Lee NEVER ONE TIME HERE IN AMERICA CLAIMED TO BE AN APOSTLE OF ANY KIND? You do know that Witness Lee swore under oath (under penalty of perjury) that he did not consider himself an apostle and that he asked others to not consider him an apostle..You do know that, don't your? Do you know that he publicly rebuked people (more than one time) for calling him an "apostle"?

That being the case, "Watchman Née, Witness Lee, and Blended Brothers all assumed to be apostles and prophets" is a false statement, a straw-man in fact, which leads to the following question:

How can anyone assume to be an apostle if they do not claim it and even rebuke people for saying it?

The Bible shows that an apostle is not shy to say they are an apostle:

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God..

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Maybe start with the question - did Witness Lee claim to be an apostle?

No, the question is, were you around when Witness Lee claimed to be, not "an" apostle, but "the" one and only apostle on the earth? I was. In fact, I got the boot for not accepting it.

Originally Posted by E

Yet I don't think being an apostle or not is the main reason people are following Lee or Blended Brothers.

Claiming to be the apostle was about having the authority of God. Lee is certainly not the first to claim to be the authority of God, by a long, long, shot. And won't be the last, by a long, long, shot, by any stretch.

I'm going with Jesus. That's where I'm hooking my wagon.

Mat_23:8 (BBE)* But you may not be named Teacher: for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

No, the question is, were you around when Witness Lee claimed to be, not "an" apostle, but "the" one and only apostle on the earth? I was. In fact, I got the boot for not accepting it.


Claiming to be the apostle was about having the authority of God. Lee is certainly not the first to claim to be the authority of God, by a long, long, shot. And won't be the last, by a long, long, shot, by any stretch.

I'm going with Jesus. That's where I'm hooking my wagon.

Mat_23:8 (BBE)* But you may not be named Teacher: for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers.

Sorry Harold. Please don’t take the bait. This is off topic for this thread and should be taken somewhere else. Please?

[ZNPaaneah]

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues. (1Cor 12:28)

And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (Eph 4:11)

These are the only two verses in the NT that would support the idea of a "prophethood".

James gives us an example of a prophet:

Take, brethren, for an example of suffering and of patience, the prophets who spake in the name of the Lord…17Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months. 18And he prayed again; and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.



That said there are many NT references to false prophets — Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 13:22, Luke 6:26, 2Pet 2:1, 1John 4:1

1. Come in Sheep’s clothing — pretend to be a disciple of the Lord
2. Inwardly ravening wolves — those who see what they are inwardly realize the whole pretense of being a disciple of the Lord is a lie.
3. They “arise, and shall lead many astray”. — The key example of a prophet given to us in the NT is by James and he gives us Elijah. In that example Elijah isn’t leading anyone. The example is not of the time he called fire down from heaven, but rather the time he prayed that it wouldn’t rain and it didn’t rain for three and a half years. No one is going to be with Elijah when he is praying that it not rain during an intense drought.
4. The false ones “show signs and wonders”. Think about the example with Elijah, if you pray that it doesn’t rain, and today it doesn’t rain is that a sign? Is that a wonder? How about if it doesn’t rain for a week? Now suppose we have been in a very long drought, everyone is suffering and you are praying that it doesn’t rain. That is not a “sign and wonder” that would simply make people angry.
5. That is also a sign of false prophets — “woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! for in the same manner did their fathers to the false prophets.” Luke 6:26 Elijah is the example of a prophet of God given to us, and the example is of a time when no one was speaking well of him.
6. False prophets are false teachers. That doesn’t mean they teach falsehood. It means that they themselves are false, just like a wolf in sheep’s clothing is false. Jezebel was false.
7. Finally there are ways in which you can “prove” the spirits whether they are of God. That is the real question.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by JJ

Watchman Née, Witness Lee, and Blended Brothers all assumed to be apostles and prophets. Some Christians follow others making similar claims. Does anyone have good articles discussing “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood” for anyone after the first century making such claims?

I don't have an answer to this question but Ephesians 4:11 has bothered me for a long time. I believe in leadership by the Spirit to 1) build up the body of Christ, 2) so as the body of Christ is built up, they/we will grow strong and also then be able to bring people to Christ, disciple them and build them up so they can do the same.. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing (immersing) them in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28).

Bur Ephesians 4:11 and others similar (deacons, bishops for example) opened up a can of religious worms!

Those 'offices' became 'titles of men'. Religious men. Deacon so and so.. Pastor so and so.. Bishop so and so.. and thus the religious institution was born IMHO due to those scriptures.

If someone can explain those scriptures to me, I would appreciate it greatly.

Blessings of Love and Peace to all.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I don't have an answer to this question but Ephesians 4:11 has bothered me for a long time. I believe in leadership by the Spirit to 1) build up the body of Christ, 2) so as the body of Christ is built up, they/we will grow strong and also then be able to bring people to Christ, disciple them and build them up so they can do the same.. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing (immersing) them in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28).

Bur Ephesians 4:11 and others similar (deacons, bishops for example) opened up a can of religious worms!

Those 'offices' became 'titles of men'. Religious men. Deacon so and so.. Pastor so and so.. Bishop so and so.. and thus the religious institution was born IMHO due to those scriptures.

If someone can explain those scriptures to me, I would appreciate it greatly.

Blessings of Love and Peace to all.

In both cases it says "God gave", not Paul, or Peter, or a Seminary, etc. You can't put "apostle" on your resume or business card. No man can "give an apostle".

I am reminded of an experience I had. I was on campus and had to go to my professor's office. It was clear across campus and we were in the habit of passing out gospel tracts. However, I dug around in my bag and I only had one tract that was at the bottom of the bag. So I wanted to make it count. As I walked across campus I prayed for the Lord to lead me to the person that needed it. I must have seen 100 students as I walked, praying the entire time, and no leading. By the time I got to the office I was miffed, as I walked in I saw a girl also in the office so I went straight to her and said "Here, this is for you". She took the tract, looked at it for an uncomfortably long time and then said "that is appropriate, I just learned I have lung cancer". The tract was "life at best is very brief like the falling of a leaf".

Now my point is this, if that tract was sent to her, it was by God, not by man. That is the key point. Man has nothing to do with it. If they do (the religion you refer to) then it is no longer an issue of being sent by God.

[Evangelical]

So far no one has been able to state clearly what are the “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood”.

What ZNPaaneah and Nell presented so far are mostly tests for all believers (e.g. test the spirits), and do not really address the specifics of an apostle.

For an apostle like the apostle Paul or Peter, they have the following things:

1. A commission from the Lord - Paul had a miraculous experience that was hard for anyone to doubt. He could always refer to this experience to remind people of his calling from the Lord Himself. Peter also had miraculous callings and also was chosen by the Lord in the flesh. A clear commission from the Lord gave Paul the ability to endure much hardship and never complain about being an apostle.

2. The authority of God - Paul had the authority over the spiritual and natural world, more than that given to a "normal believer".

3. The power of God - God's power comes from the authority of God, the ability to change things in the spiritual and natural realm.

4. Fruit/evidence - the power of God produces spiritual fruit. This fruit does not mean the "fruit of the Spirit", love, joy, peace etc, but what have they done?- people saved, healed etc.

The last point, fruit, proves that the commission from the Lord is genuine. Paul had numerous salvation's and churches established to his credit, which confirmed his commission. His labor resulted in fruit.

In the church are evangelists, prophets and many others who can do everything that Paul did. For this reason I tend to think of apostles as regular believers whom the Lord chooses and uses in a greater and wider way (e.g. internationally, not just local).

Now let us reverse the 4 steps to see when a person is not an apostle. I have written this assuming they are a believer but think they are an apostle:

1. No commission from the Lord - a person claims to be an apostle but has no clear commission from the Lord. A genuine apostle will have no doubt about it. They will never say "well I thought I had a dream where God told me he wants me to preach to the nations but I'm not really sure". This implies they won't be able to endure hardship - they will fall away at the first sign of trouble, and might wish they weren't an apostle. In contrast, Paul never once complained about being an apostle, and had no doubt about it.

2. Not much authority from God or no authority - if they are a believer they will have some authority, but not as much as an apostle.

3. Not much power or no power - likewise, not as much as an apostle

4. Not much fruit or no fruit - the super-apostles that Paul addresses in his letter to the Corinthians did not endure the hardship he did, or labor in the way he did. They may have claimed to be apostles and even better than Paul, but did not have the evidence to support it, they were NATO. With that, came pride - boasting about their accomplishments (Paul rarely boasted), having an attitude of superiority - in contrast to Paul's meekness.


One thing that stands out to me as a test of an apostle (or prophet) is that no one can choose to be an apostle (or prophet), they are chosen by God, and if chosen by God it is virtually impossible to run away from it (like Jonah, Elijah, etc). Paul thought God chose him even before he was born (Gal 1:15). I am only speculating but I wonder if after Paul's conversion he remembered times when God had visited him, even as a child, and prepared him for his life as an apostle.

I used to be involved in so-called "five-fold ministry". Based on the belief that everyone has gifts, you can answer some sort of questions and add up the total score which attempts to find what gifts you have. - if you have enough traits or gifts you might just be an apostle, or prophet or evangelist. I think Christian bookstores still sell books which have these sorts of tests in them. But I see this is wrong because it is something God chooses, you can't do an "apostleship test" like an IQ test, and then become an apostle. And if you're 65 years old, and just now realizing that God wants you to be an apostle, it's unlikely to be the case.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So far no one has been able to state clearly what are the “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood”.

What ZNPaaneah and Nell presented so far are mostly tests for all believers (e.g. test the spirits), and do not really address the specifics of an apostle.

For an apostle like the apostle Paul or Peter, they have the following things:

1. A commission from the Lord

2. The authority of God

3. The power of God

4. Fruit/evidence

So, we now know that Paul and Peter are apostles. Brilliant!

But according to your "tests," we must disqualify the other Eleven, Timothy, Titus, Silvanus, etc.

Now we know that only TWO apostles existed in all of church history.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So, we now know that Paul and Peter are apostles. Brilliant!

But according to your "tests," we must disqualify the other Eleven, Timothy, Titus, Silvanus, etc.

Now we know that only TWO apostles existed in all of church history.

My post addressed capital A apostles, which I think the OP has in mind. If we are talking about lower case apostles, then we might be one of those anytime we spread the gospel, and Nee, Lee etc would easily pass as one of those.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So far no one has been able to state clearly what are the “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood”.

What ZNPaaneah and Nell presented so far are mostly tests for all believers (e.g. test the spirits), and do not really address the specifics of an apostle.

For an apostle like the apostle Paul or Peter, they have the following things:

1. A commission from the Lord - Paul had a miraculous experience that was hard for anyone to doubt. He could always refer to this experience to remind people of his calling from the Lord Himself. Peter also had miraculous callings and also was chosen by the Lord in the flesh. A clear commission from the Lord gave Paul the ability to endure much hardship and never complain about being an apostle.

2. The authority of God - Paul had the authority over the spiritual and natural world, more than that given to a "normal believer".

3. The power of God - God's power comes from the authority of God, the ability to change things in the spiritual and natural realm.

4. Fruit/evidence - the power of God produces spiritual fruit. This fruit does not mean the "fruit of the Spirit", love, joy, peace etc, but what have they done?- people saved, healed etc.

The last point, fruit, proves that the commission from the Lord is genuine. Paul had numerous salvation's and churches established to his credit, which confirmed his commission. His labor resulted in fruit.

In the church are evangelists, prophets and many others who can do everything that Paul did. For this reason I tend to think of apostles as regular believers whom the Lord chooses and uses in a greater and wider way (e.g. internationally, not just local).

Now let us reverse the 4 steps to see when a person is not an apostle. I have written this assuming they are a believer but think they are an apostle:

1. No commission from the Lord - a person claims to be an apostle but has no clear commission from the Lord. A genuine apostle will have no doubt about it. They will never say "well I thought I had a dream where God told me he wants me to preach to the nations but I'm not really sure". This implies they won't be able to endure hardship - they will fall away at the first sign of trouble, and might wish they weren't an apostle. In contrast, Paul never once complained about being an apostle, and had no doubt about it.

2. Not much authority from God or no authority - if they are a believer they will have some authority, but not as much as an apostle.

3. Not much power or no power - likewise, not as much as an apostle

4. Not much fruit or no fruit - the super-apostles that Paul addresses in his letter to the Corinthians did not endure the hardship he did, or labor in the way he did. They may have claimed to be apostles and even better than Paul, but did not have the evidence to support it, they were NATO. With that, came pride - boasting about their accomplishments (Paul rarely boasted), having an attitude of superiority - in contrast to Paul's meekness.


One thing that stands out to me as a test of an apostle (or prophet) is that no one can choose to be an apostle (or prophet), they are chosen by God, and if chosen by God it is virtually impossible to run away from it (like Jonah, Elijah, etc). Paul thought God chose him even before he was born (Gal 1:15). I am only speculating but I wonder if after Paul's conversion he remembered times when God had visited him, even as a child, and prepared him for his life as an apostle.

I used to be involved in so-called "five-fold ministry". Based on the belief that everyone has gifts, you can answer some sort of questions and add up the total score which attempts to find what gifts you have. - if you have enough traits or gifts you might just be an apostle, or prophet or evangelist. I think Christian bookstores still sell books which have these sorts of tests in them. But I see this is wrong because it is something God chooses, you can't do an "apostleship test" like an IQ test, and then become an apostle. And if you're 65 years old, and just now realizing that God wants you to be an apostle, it's unlikely to be the case.

1. The commission is from God, therefore there is no way for a third party to test that.
2. The authority is from God. Again, not something that we can test.
3. The power of God. Again, not something we can test.
4. The Fruit. The one thing we can test, and I would equate that to the charge "to test the spirit". The fruit of the spirit is the test. This is more comprehensive test than simply testing the doctrine.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. The commission is from God, therefore there is no way for a third party to test that.
2. The authority is from God. Again, not something that we can test.
3. The power of God. Again, not something we can test.
4. The Fruit. The one thing we can test, and I would equate that to the charge "to test the spirit". The fruit of the spirit is the test. This is more comprehensive test than simply testing the doctrine.

1. is testable if for example God confirms the commission with other people - God told Ananias about Paul. The Spirit probably confirmed it to Peter and the others as well when they met Paul. Laying on of hands etc

Different tests are needed. Test of the spirit is to test if someone has the Spirit of God or not. This would apply if they are an unbeliever pretending to be an apostle. But what about a believer who passes the test of the spirit, claiming they are an apostle? Perhaps a believer who sincerely believes they are an apostle because others told them so or because that's what they wanted to be, or because they had some dream or vision.

For that the best test is the fruit of what did they accomplish. For this we can apply the test of the parable of the talents - how much did they accomplish with what they were given? Assuming they tried, of course.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

Does anyone have good articles discussing “tests of apostleship and/or prophethood” for anyone after the first century making such claims?

I repost here the real question I’m looking for answers to. It is “generic”, not LC specific. And thanks for good discussion on this question.

I’ve seen a fundamental divide among theologians about whether generations after John even have them. Some say there are only shepherds (pastors) and teachers as the initial apostles “laid the foundation”, though some of those may act as “sent ones” to other areas to preach the gospel and “church plant”. Others say apostles and prophets still exist. All say “beware of false apostles and test what they say carefully."

JJ

[Ohio]

The real question here relates to authority, as in what authority to we allow church leader/ministers to possess? Lee and LSM love to talk about "Deputy Authority" as if God has placed all His authority on earth in a man, just because he claims it is his. How dangerous is that? If there are apostles and prophets today, what authority do they possess? Do they alone possess the authority to appoint other elders? Do their teachings rise to (or even supersede) the authoritative level of scripture?

Any discussion on this topic must confront all of these issues.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any discussion on this topic must confront all of these issues.

And one more : The issue of mans need to follow. Or should that be a foregone conclusion? There are leaders and followers. If you're neither, get out of the way ; leaders and followers are marching onward.

I guess then, the issue in question is : Follow who?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by JJ

I repost here the real question I’m looking for answers to. It is “generic”, not LC specific. And thanks for good discussion on this question.

I’ve seen a fundamental divide among theologians about whether generations after John even have them. Some say there are only shepherds (pastors) and teachers as the initial apostles “laid the foundation”, though some of those may act as “sent ones” to other areas to preach the gospel and “church plant”. Others say apostles and prophets still exist. All say “beware of false apostles and test what they say carefully."

Deuteronomy 18:19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.


*So we are required to listen to God's words spoken by a prophet.
*Someone who presumes to speak in God's name that which God has not spoken is to be put to death.
*How do you know whether God spoke the word or not?
*If what was spoken transpires or comes true, then the message was from God. If it doesn't come true, it was a presumptuous utterance and the prophet should be put to death.

In this case, one the test in the Old Testament is to "pay attention." Watch to see whether the word spoken the prophet comes true. This is supported by the New Testament verses:

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Whether apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers or any Christian for that matter, the test is the fruit of their ministry, their life, or their walk.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

[I]
Whether apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers or any Christian for that matter, the test is the fruit of their ministry, their life, or their walk.

Nell

So if they pass the test are we compelled by God to follow them?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

So if they pass the test are we compelled by God to follow them?

To my knowledge, the only One we are compelled to follow is Jesus.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

To my knowledge, the only One we are compelled to follow is Jesus.

Nell

AMEN! Nell ...