Christ and the church is the Kingdom (semi-private discussion)

[OBW]

As the result of my response to a certain post relating to a change in direction of the “LCS Factor” thread on 2/3/2010 spearheaded by PriestlyScribe, tasteslikegold commented on mine and a discussion arose that was somewhat separate from the one PriestlyScribe was carrying on.

The title for the thread is not necessarily the whole of the topic, but was the first item that came up as a disagreement.

In an attempt to move our discussion, I identified some specific posts that were to be moved to a new thread. Unfortunately, it appears that technology got in the way and some of the intended posts were moved but not all, and a few that were not intended were also moved. So that we can begin our discussion, I have located all of the relevant posts where they currently reside. They are either in the “LCS Factor” thread (“LCSF”) or the “There is a Solution2” thread (“TIAS2”). They are (in chronological order with their current “home” and post # noted — times are based on Central time):

TIAS2 #1 (03-01-2010, 10:45 PM) by PriestlyScribe (the catalyst for the discussion)
LCSF #1328 (03-02-2010, 09:15 AM) by OBW (my response to PS)
LCSF #1329 (03-02-2010, 03:24 PM) by tasteslikegold
TIAS2 #4 (03-02-2010, 04:04 PM) by OBW
TIAS2 #5 (03-02-2010, 05:26 PM) by tasteslikegold
LCSF #1336 (03-03-2010, 09:22 AM) by OBW
TIAS2 #7 (03-03-2010, 09:32 AM) by OBW
TIAS2 #8 (03-03-2010, 11:23 AM) by tasteslikegold
TIAS2 #9 (03-03-2010, 12:29 PM) by OBW
LCSF #1338 (03-03-2010, 02:03 PM) by OBW
TIAS2 #11 (03-03-2010, 03:45 PM) by OBW
LCSF #1341 (03-04-2010, 09:25 AM) by OBW

As tasteslikegold suggested, I did my rather lengthy monologue based on his (may be a presumption to say “his,” but I’m sure that will be clarified) and now we will start discussing.

I presume that we will take one specific issue and discuss it until we are either closer to agreement, or at least understand the reasons that we are at an impasse. Either is acceptable as I do not remember any of this involving core items of the faith. (I would hope that we could agree on those at a minimum.)

For all who are observing, this is not necessarily a closed discussion, although we both request that any input be related to the discussion we are having and that it be added in a respectful manner. That does not preclude passion in your speech. We just do not want to insult each other or anyone else. This is not about me or TLG, but about understanding what we perceive to be truth.

This may not be ideal, but I think we both agree it would be better to start now than to wait any longer. The discussion has languished long enough.

[OBW]

As a practical note. I have typically gone to the post from which I intended to quote, pressed the “quote” button and then copied the entire thing into a Word document and done my editing there. Just situate the [ quote ...]at the beginning of any part you want to quote and end it with [ /quote ] (note I have inserted spaces to keep it from disappearing into the formatting of this post).

You can even go to another post and do the same, then put quotes from different posts into the same response.

The good part about using Word or another offline word processor is better visibility to the whole post and a better spell checker.

The bad part is getting it moved back to the forum. Unfortunately, I note that Word copies a bunch of additional codes back into the forum that it cannot handle. So you need a mediator. I use Notepad. Copy the whole thing into Notepad. You will need to add a single space on each blank line. Something about the HTML formatting doesn’t like to keep two “return” symbols without something intervening — like a space. Then copy from Notepad and paste into the forum “reply” box. If you had some colored lettering or bolding, you will need to do that again in the forum's edit box.

Pain in the you-know-what. But the results are better. It keeps you (and me) from responding too fast. Gives a chance to look at it and rethink wording.

If there is a better way, let me know. Once my computers went to Vista and/or Word 2007, direct copy-paste from Word just wasn’t an option. But I really like the features of Word when writing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

It keeps you (and me) from responding too fast. Gives a chance to look at it and rethink wording.

I prefer the immediacy of typing and sending. Like Martin Luther's "Letter from Birmingham Jail", though I'm not quite in his league!

I wonder why someone doesn't call Mr. Kangas on his "Christ and the church" rhetoric. I see no scriptural basis. Christ is our all, not Christ and the church.

When we believe into Jesus Christ, and acknowledge the common faith we share with others, Christ is well capable of building His church. When we place the church as an entity of itself, and on a par with God, no less, we do great disservice to the Gospel.

Yes, yes, I know -- "The Spirit and the Bride say come", but when we gather together and by the Spirit beckon our Beloved Bridegroom, it is not the Bride we eye, but Him. Yes, "...the church, which is His Body", but again, we only are tasked with seeing the Head, and our neighbor. Christ alone is capable to care for the Body. We are tasked to care for the person next to us. Anyone whe deigns to care for the Body in toto is venturing into territory reserved for God alone. You end up trying to control those for whom Christ died, and usurping the King. Instead, the King instructed you to love the person next to you, best as you can, and trust the Shepherd to care for the flock.

Jesus said to love God, and love our neighbor as ourselves. It doesn't say, "Love God, and love the church". It says love your neighbor. What happens when we unduly elevate 'the church' into a place for God alone, is that we pursue such a creation at the expense of our neighbors. Those who can't get with our program are jettisoned. Ask Steve Isitt what happened to him when he attempted to contact some of the flotsam and jetsam of the Local Church church-building program. He was immediately branded as contaminated. Such is the care that actual human beings get under the organization-promoting idea of "Christ and the church".

No, there is one mediator between God and man, and that is the Man Christ Jesus. There is no "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven", there is no "Pope", and there is no "Oracle". There is only Jesus. There is only one name given whereby men might be saved. Any organization placed on the same level as Jesus is bad thinking, bad theology, and ruinous to the humans for whom Christ came.

[OBW]

aron,

I appreciate your thoughts. But let's wait for tasteslikegold to get his bearings on this altered format for the discussion and let the primary discussion get under way. We may or may not actually discuss your thoughts at some point, although I doubt it will be from the outset.

BTW: to tasteslikegold: Do you mind the shortening to "TLG" in some cases? I manage to misspell it often enough and it is giving my spell checker fits (which I do not necessarily mind). I have no actual objection either way.

[tasteslikegold]

OBW: TLG works fine for me. I'll start my responses tomorrow. I appreciate your effort and patience.

[tasteslikegold]

First response to post http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...10&postcount=9 regarding the kingdom:
I’ve been giving this some thought over the past week or so as to how I would respond in this debate with regard to the “kingdom of the heavens.” Looking back over some responses I did notice that here were some similarities in our arguments and so rather than addressing directly the matters in which we disagree, I thought I might present this first response as a clarification to you on how I see the kingdom. In doing so I hope to emphasize those matters upon which we agree and also to help contrast (at least in my mind) the matters upon which we may disagree.

I think to begin there needs to be a little clarification as to what is and what is not “the kingdom.” Whereas I believe that most Christians are taught that there is only one kingdom – the kingdom of God – in the book of Matthew there are actually two kingdoms being spoken of. You may be familiar with this if you’ve ever read the Recovery Version or had been in the Lord’s Recovery for any period of time. I think that acknowledging Lee’s theology regarding “the kingdom of the heavens” and “the kingdom of God,” at least to some degree, is important in this discussion to help clarify that these two aspects have varying expressions.

So to make this as short as possible, simply if you refer to the RcV’s footnote 4 to Matthew 5:3 you will get the definition. The kingdom of God is God’s eternal reign from eternity past to eternity future. It includes all of the created items, including the earth, humanity, etc.; and it includes what we call “the kingdom of the heavens,” which is not a separate kingdom itself, but rather a very specific aspect of God’s eternal realm. The kingdom of the heavens came, or “drew near” by Christ’s incarnation, and is essentially the church as the practical expression of Christ, who is the king, on the earth.

Now, the issues we were discussion were pertaining to the expressions of the kingdom in various ways. As I recall your argument, you were stating that the church meetings are not in and of themselves the only or primary expressions of the kingdom of the heavens, and I agree with that. However, we were also discussing “the church life,” which you disagreed was anything but the attendances of the saints in various meetings, conferences, etc. If I understand that correctly to be your argument, then I could not more disagree. I equate “the church life” to be the totality of one’s interactions with Christ primarily and with the body of Christ secondarily. To me, the “church life” is literally my Christian life.

Where I think some of the confusion lied (And perhaps where some of our differences lie) is our understanding of “expression.” Something that is “expressed” in my opinion relates to an inward nature or inherent quality being outwardly experienced or viewed. So the church has an inward nature – that of Christ – which is experienced inwardly (spiritually) through prayer, through fellowship, etc. both individually and corporately, and which is expressed outwardly. Lee identifies these two aspects: The experience he calls “the reality” and the expression he calls “the appearance.” Therefore, the kingdom of the heavens can be identified as a “body of believers” which has Christ as their king. Why? Because they have the nature of the king (His life) and they have the headship of Christ – the king – as their authority. Paul identifies this kingdom as a “commonwealth” in the heavens in Phil. 3:20 and identifies its constituents as citizens in Eph. 2:19.

In my next post I will deal with a couple of specific comments you made with regard to the LC in your response.