How the LCM Affects Personality

[Freedom]

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

Freedom,

Would you say that this passive, unassertive personality was something demonstrated by leadership as well?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Freedom,

Would you say that this passive, unassertive personality was something demonstrated by leadership as well?

As it relates to local leaders, I would say both yes and no. I saw what I would categorize as two types of elders in the LC. There were the ones who seemed to be effective at leading others. They were assertive, and knew how to get things done. Then there were those who were perhaps pushed into a leadership position without having the experience or personality that would make them successful at that.

I would say that the second category is the type that I ran into the most. Obviously it's easier to see that in retrospect, but at the time, I viewed them all as people I could trust as leaders (as did everyone else). When the ineffective type of leaders exist as examples, then attributes like passiveness or timidness creates an impression of it being a normal way to act or a desired personality trait.

At a more general level, I would say that among many LC leaders regardless of what category they would fall under, there was a never ending act of trying to appear unassuming. No one wanted to be labeled as being ambitious and the elders acted accordingly regardless of whether they really were that way or not.

For lack of a better example, I saw stuff like this happen a lot with the breaking of the bread during the Lord's table. The elders seemed to get really fussy about making sure it happened at the 'right' time, and when the rank and file members attempted to get up to break the bread, somehow it always ended up being the 'wrong' time. But the elders didn't want to appear that they were "running the meeting." Of course, all the rank and file members were afraid of getting reprimanded if they initiated anything. So the elders in turn would often get in a mood and start nudging random brothers that it's time to get up there and break the bread, saying "there's no one in charge here." It's the silly games like that which really tend to mess with people, especially when they try to take it seriously and can't make sense of it all.

[stillseekingtruth]

Freedom, "For lack of a better example, I saw stuff like this happen a lot with the breaking of the bread during the Lord's table. The elders seemed to get really fussy about making sure it happened at the 'right' time, and when the rank and file members attempted to get up to break the bread, somehow it always ended up being the 'wrong' time. But the elders didn't want to appear that they were "running the meeting." Of course, all the rank and file members were afraid of getting reprimanded if they initiated anything. So the elders in turn would often get in a mood and start nudging random brothers that it's time to get up there and break the bread, saying "there's no one in charge here." It's the silly games like that which really tend to mess with people, especially when they try to take it seriously and can't make sense of it all."

__________________
This is exactly howmit was in our locality. Imagine my horror when a sister stood up with her 15 or 16 year old son, prayed, and broke the bread. I believe that is not a sister's place, but because of who she was they made an excuse for her and brushed it off. It was very confusing at times who was really in control.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Freedom,

This is exactly how it was in our locality. Imagine my horror when a sisterstood up with her 15 or 16 year old son, prayed, and broke the bread. I believe that is not a sister's place, but because of who she was they made an excuse for her and brushed it off. It was very confusing at times who was really in control.

I think that a lot of the rules/exceptions in the LC came in more of an unspoken form. We learned what to do by example, and in more extreme cases seeing someone get publicly humiliated and then not wanting to be the next person that happened to.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

This can all be related to "submission and authority". Those older than you, submit. Those older than you even if they're wrong they're still right. This behavior translates into the workplace where you end up being passive and deferring to others. Thought process is usually the same "it's not my place".
We all have opinions, but we become trained in the local churches not to express them. Those that are expressive in their opinions are usually ones receiving some form if disciplinary measures.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

This can all be related to "submission and authority". Those older than you, submit. Those older than you even if they're wrong they're still right. This behavior translates into the workplace where you end up being passive and deferring to others. Thought process is usually the same "it's not my place".
We all have opinions, but we become trained in the local churches not to express them. Those that are expressive in their opinions are usually ones receiving some form if disciplinary measures.

Yes, the teaching of authority and submission is one of the core (and unspoken) principles in the LCM. As such, it plays a big part in the interpersonal relationships and interactions, even though people might not realize it. When I think about my own upbringing, I was never aware of any authority and submission doctrine in the LCM, but I certainly saw it played out in the meetings and the various interactions that occurred. It was also an ideology that was present in my family situation as well.

For me, I quickly caught on to the subtle 'hints' around me in the LCM regarding what type of behavior that was appropriate. I always saw people blindly agree to do whatever the elders told them to do, so I thought that submissiveness was normal behavior. I always saw the rank and file members hesitate with, or defer big decisions to those over them, so I though that indecisiveness was normal behavior. The list could go on.

[Trapped]

I see this all over the place. I've had to tell a few saints sometimes who are hesitant to give their input that we're so afraid of expressing a thought that could be construed as an opinion that we end up even being afraid of expressing an idea!

I remember one time I noticed some grammatical errors on a handout several days before it was to be handed out. They were clear as day, obvious, no doubt in any remotely educated person's mind that they were incorrect and needed to be fixed before it was passed out to the saints. But in checking with the brothers who put the handout together, we had to say "we believe there are errors" rather than state the fact that "there are errors", in case we were wrong and couldn't trust the words that were right in front of our eyes because "maybe they know something we don't know."

Super small example but those subtle self-doubt, deferential, "it's not my place", "I must not know what I'm talking about" type maneuvers are common (and drive me up the wall!)

[Trapped]

Another example that isn't related to being submissive, but relates to an incredibly common exchange that saints have that bleeds into other areas of life:

Saint A: "Hi Saint B, how was the [meeting/conference/training/retreat/gathering/whatever]?"
Saint B: "Oh it was really good!!"
Saint A: "Oh good!"
Saint B: "Yeah! Yeah. yep....."
Saint A: "Good....okay...."

....and both saints drift away from the conversation because it had no foundation to begin with.

Sometimes I intentionally press saints past the "it was really good" answer and say (not in a sarcastic way), "Oh yeah? So like what exactly was good?" The answer is usually pretty short and is basically a few words about what their brain can quickly remember about the overall topic. I think a lot endure the meetings so they can get to the social aspect of conferences, etc.

A saint who had been serving for a few years told me that when they decided to stop serving and get a job that they went on a interview and the interviewer asked them "So how has your summer been?" And the saint....as they had done countless times before....said out of reflex, "Oh, it's been good!" And stopped at that. And the interviewer looked at them like.....that's it? And the saint snapped out of their church-life-mode and remembered they were in the real world where people actually give details and have actual conversational back-and-forth exchanges.

[Trapped]

I'll throw my own in. The self-imposed passivity. To this day I am scared to initiate anything in my own life, including small things like calling people up to go hang out, all the way to bigger things like what job to go for or what medium-to-large changes I should make in my life, because of the deep-seated negative implication that that is something initiated by me and not by the Lord. I know this should be balanced in that we should bring the Lord into things, but it ends up being paralyzing. I’ve never been allowed to express what I want, or have an interest in things, or have a goal to strive for (it might replace the Lord!!!) that as an adult I am still prevented from those things. Or, if I do, they are accompanied by guilt and shame and fear.

When I was in high school the serving ones told us that we should never ever make a big decision like choosing what college to go to without including the Lord in the decision. They told us to sit down alone in our rooms and write down the names of the colleges we were considering and pray over the list to see where the Lord would lead us. Well, terrified of making a big decision without the Lord and afraid of the repercussions if I didn't, I did just that, only I got no leading or feeling or direction at all. After agonizing about it I finally gave up and just went where I wanted to go. I talked to another church kid a year or two ago who said something similar.....they said they were worried about doing anything of their own initiative but chased the Lord's feeling to no avail and said "eventually I just had to do what makes me happy".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Super small example but those subtle self-doubt, deferential, "it's not my place", "I must not know what I'm talking about" type maneuvers are common (and drive me up the wall!)

I can definitely relate to the self-doubt. It's a behavior that I saw happen all the time within the LCM. Like you mentioned, I think it's related to the fear that statements of fact might be construed as expressing an opinion/criticism.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I can definitely relate to the self-doubt. It's a behavior that I saw happen all the time within the LCM. Like you mentioned, I think it's related to the fear that statements of fact might be construed as expressing an opinion/criticism.

Perhaps the program just preyed on and escalated our own lack of self-assurance.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

Have you ever read about or tried assertiveness training? You might find it helpful. I did.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

Have you ever read about or tried assertiveness training? You might find it helpful. I did.

I haven't. I will read up on that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

I can relate to Freedom. My experiences are uniquely mine, though perhaps others can relate. Whether a teen or a young adult in the Local Churches, I had no empowerment to say no. Just comply. Saying no is akin to being "rebellious". Submission and Authority were the teachings often referenced.
I learned to comply even if your thoughts say no. This affects every day living and not just the time spent in a LC function. I would have thoughts I cannot say no and to do so would make me the villain.
Long term result I ended up having no ownership over my boundaries. Time after time my boundaries ended up being trespassed.