How I got here, and what is this place?

Hi, I was doing a google search on Bill Freeman whilst reading one of his books. Love to find out more about authors. This website was a link. I believe I did read the thread. However, I didn't know what any of it was about...the LCM, Lee and Nee (though I have heard of them). I'm always on the search for works from saints past....the Christian mystics...if you will, that draw by heart closer to Jesus and to his Bride.

So, I'm wondering what the purpose of this board is and is it fulfilling that purpose? This is all new information to me on a 'leg' of the church I've not explored before. What I'm looking for is the discussion and inspiration from the teachings of the movement.

I am curious to know if this denomination/fellowship is still active?
And, what works from these men of God and their followers do you recommend?
Is it a cult?
Are you here for it or against it?

Thanks for hearing me out,
Mrsflib

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am curious to know if this denomination/fellowship is still active?
And, what works from these men of God and their followers do you recommend?
Is it a cult?
Are you here for it or against it?

I can't speak for everyone hear, and I myself aren't active a lot, but I've watched the forum for a while and here's what I get.

This forum is still very much active. It has a number of core contributors, with new members such as yourself arriving often enough to keep it interesting.
Few people here would "recommend" their work and in fact take issue with the focus on their work within the Local Church.
In general most people here is against the Local Church and would advise you to avoid it, though there are others who take a lot of time defending the alternative view.
Some people here would argue that it is a cult. Others would be use slightly softer language, but still think it dangerous.

[aron]

Here's the problem I have with the 'mystical' thing today. It suckers you in, and at some point you are violating common sense, scripture, your conscience. Because your "feeling" says to.

In the local churches of LSM/Witness Lee they call it "flavor". If something has the right "flavor" they approve of it. It's wholly subjective that I can see, and men even with relatively "good" hearts (i.e. seeking God in Christ Jesus) can get fooled.

Now in the LSM/Witness Lee NoName Church they are all about "seeing the church" from what their documents show. Now they have the "four-in-one" God. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Church which is His Body and Bride.

Now instead of seeing Jesus they see themselves, the Church Glorious. Deceived is what I think. They have left the safeguard of the common fellowship and the common truth plainly revealed. The gospel has Jesus Christ raised from the dead on the third day, faith in this producing repentance, forgiveness, and eternal life.

If it was all about the Church His Body and His Bride then why did Luther leave the RCC? That is the RCC objection to Luther. "So what if we made mistakes. We are the church. Nobody comes to Jesus except by us." If Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for Her, then why does the Church love the Church? That's what I see in the LC meetings. It's all about the Hive, the Collective. One man's subjectivity (Nee) spread over thousands (Bill Freeman, Witness Lee, Titus Chu, Dong Yu Lan).

In Witness Lee's "Divine and Mystical Realm" you got pseudo-spiritual mumbo jumbo. I don't know about Bill Freeman, but his wife Patsy certainly drew some comments. Is that directly related to the esoteric pursuit? Probably.

Stay safe, friend. That's my take.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. This is our faith. Don't leave it for mysticism. The resurrection is deep, deep, deep. You can never plumb it.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's the problem I have with the 'mystical' thing today. It suckers you in, and at some point you are violating common sense, scripture, your conscience. Because your "feeling" says to.

I'm with you. Mysticism leads you to believe you have a unique revelation or knowledge that most others haven't received. In Christianity it's also known as gnosticism. With this special "revelation" you become isolated from the rest of the believers because now you "feel" more spiritual.

First it starts off with beliefs like "we need to free ourselves from the rest of ignorant Christianity". Then it snowballs into a belief that you need to free yourself from "religion" altogether because religion and spirituality cannot coexist. That's not what scripture teaches, btw (James 1:27). Before you know it you're free from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

There's also the "spirit" of Anti-Christ so it is possible to be very "spiritual" yet be following the wrong spirit.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'm with you. Mysticism leads you to believe you have a unique revelation or knowledge that most others haven't received. In Christianity it's also known as gnosticism. With this special "revelation" you become isolated from the rest of the believers because now you "feel" more spiritual.

First it starts off with beliefs like "we need to free ourselves from the rest of ignorant Christianity". Then it snowballs into a belief that you need to free yourself from "religion" altogether because religion and spirituality cannot coexist. That's not what scripture teaches, btw (James 1:27). Before you know it you're free from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

There's also the "spirit" of Anti-Christ so it is possible to be very "spiritual" yet be following the wrong spirit.

Your statement about mysticism and Gnosticism is incorrect. Mysticism seeks oneness with God. Gnosticism rejects the physical world in favor of the supernatural. So mysticism is not "also known as gnosticism".

"Mysticism leads you to believe you have a unique revelation or knowledge that most others haven't received."

Each person has an individual experience of Christ. Even Paul had a different experience to Peter, etc. Each of the disciples had a unique revelation about Christ than the others. This is why there are 4 gospels - each one sees Christ from a slightly different perspective.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your statement about mysticism and Gnosticism is incorrect. Mysticism seeks oneness with God. Gnosticism rejects the physical world in favor of the supernatural. So mysticism is not "also known as gnosticism".

"Mysticism leads you to believe you have a unique revelation or knowledge that most others haven't received."

Each person has an individual experience of Christ. Even Paul had a different experience to Peter, etc. Each of the disciples had a unique revelation about Christ than the others. This is why there are 4 gospels - each one sees Christ from a slightly different perspective.

Do the four gospels teach 4 different Christ's? Isn't it the same death, burial, and resurrection in all four? Gnosticism/mysticism teach a different gospel altogether. With a different gospel comes a different Jesus and with a different Jesus comes a different spirit (2 Corinthians 11:4)

Since you use wikipedia as an authority in your arguments, here is a snippet from their website;

"Gnosis refers to knowledge based on personal experience or perception. In a religious context, gnosis is mystical or esoteric knowledge based on direct participation with the divine."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'm with you. Mysticism leads you to believe you have a unique revelation or knowledge that most others haven't received. In Christianity it's also known as gnosticism. With this special "revelation" you become isolated from the rest of the believers because now you "feel" more spiritual.

First it starts off with beliefs like "we need to free ourselves from the rest of ignorant Christianity". Then it snowballs into a belief that you need to free yourself from "religion" altogether because religion and spirituality cannot coexist. That's not what scripture teaches, btw (James 1:27). Before you know it you're free from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

There's also the "spirit" of Anti-Christ so it is possible to be very "spiritual" yet be following the wrong spirit.

My experience with mysticism brought me closer to Christ and God. Sorry about yours. It did lead me into all kinds of mysticism, that was interesting but I didn't get into.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

My experience with mysticism brought me closer to Christ and God. Sorry about yours. It did lead me into all kinds of mysticism, that was interesting but I didn't get into.

Our definitions of Mysticism may differ so let me try to clarify what I mean when I use the term . I believe dictionary.com gives an accurate description.

According to their definition; Mysticism is "the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender."

The problem with using this method within Christianity is that you essentially turn the gaining of spiritual knowledge into a work. This is no different then systems in eastern mysticism which teach that enlightenment comes through the practice of meditation. It's the same approach.

As Christians, we receive knowledge through revelation by faith and not by contemplation. Faith gives control of what knowledge is given to a believer over to God. He choses when and what to reveal to his people. Working yourself into an elevated state of consciousness is basically you trusting in your own abilities and judgment.

You were right to assume I had experience with mysticism. Just like the fruit in the garden, to me it looked wonderful and tasted great but in the end it seperated me from the Lord.

At first I thought I was drawing closer to him judging by all this new "knowledge" I was receiving, but it was all a very convincing lie. Paul was right, Satan effectively masquerades as an angel of light. If you don't accept my testimony, then atleast test your own beliefs against mine in prayer and with scripture.

Through my own experience, I've come to realize that Gnosticism (meaning Christian mysticism) is to Christianity what Kabbalism is to Judaism. Both are the places you end up in when you turn away from the God of Heaven but desire to remain "spiritual".

Coincidentally I found that it's a desire to be "more spiritual" apart from God that traps you in these systems. Not that I wanted to be apart from the Lord, but as I started trusting more and more in my own abilities that became the inevitable result.

Having the Holy Spirit is all you need in being a spiritual Christian. For whatever reason, we tend to always complicate things and that includes our faith. Christianity is supposed to be really simple.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's the problem I have with the 'mystical' thing today. It suckers you in, and at some point you are violating common sense, scripture, your conscience. Because your "feeling" says to.

In the local churches of LSM/Witness Lee they call it "flavor". If something has the right "flavor" they approve of it. It's wholly subjective that I can see, and men even with relatively "good" hearts (i.e. seeking God in Christ Jesus) can get fooled.

Now in the LSM/Witness Lee NoName Church they are all about "seeing the church" from what their documents show. Now they have the "four-in-one" God. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Church which is His Body and Bride.

Now instead of seeing Jesus they see themselves, the Church Glorious. Deceived is what I think. They have left the safeguard of the common fellowship and the common truth plainly revealed. The gospel has Jesus Christ raised from the dead on the third day, faith in this producing repentance, forgiveness, and eternal life.

If it was all about the Church His Body and His Bride then why did Luther leave the RCC? That is the RCC objection to Luther. "So what if we made mistakes. We are the church. Nobody comes to Jesus except by us." If Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for Her, then why does the Church love the Church? That's what I see in the LC meetings. It's all about the Hive, the Collective. One man's subjectivity (Nee) spread over thousands (Bill Freeman, Witness Lee, Titus Chu, Dong Yu Lan).

In Witness Lee's "Divine and Mystical Realm" you got pseudo-spiritual mumbo jumbo. I don't know about Bill Freeman, but his wife Patsy certainly drew some comments. Is that directly related to the esoteric pursuit? Probably.

Stay safe, friend. That's my take.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. This is our faith. Don't leave it for mysticism. The resurrection is deep, deep, deep. You can never plumb it.

Paul the apostle was subjective. He was possibly the first major Christian mystic. He had trances, visions and wrote about his oneness with God. Unlike James who wrote about practical matters.

John who wrote Revelation was also a mystic, else the book would be quite less subjective than it is.

Actually I think that Lee, Nee and the local churches are far less mystic than Pentecostalism, for example. How many prophesying meetings start with "I had a dream or vision last night..." very few indeed... but these things are common in Pentecostal churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Paul the apostle was subjective. He was possibly the first major Christian mystic. He had trances, visions and wrote about his oneness with God. Unlike James who wrote about practical matters.

John who wrote Revelation was also a mystic, else the book would be quite less subjective than it is.

Actually I think that Lee, Nee and the local churches are far less mystic than Pentecostalism, for example. How many prophesying meetings start with "I had a dream or vision last night..." very few indeed...
but these things are common in Pentecostal churches.

I never saw that.

I've been to hundreds of meetings.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never saw that.

I've been to hundreds of meetings.

No one ever shared about what God spoke to them or showed them ?

[Mrsflib]

Totally agree with Evangelical.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Paul the apostle was subjective. He was possibly the first major Christian mystic.

If Paul's mysticism superseded that of Jesus Christ I would object. Witness Lee, by forcing the contents of his visions on others, showed that he was a fake. A fraud.

There are lots of Christian mystics out there. Not all of them are from God. Beware.

Another way to put it -- Jesus was a mystic; God raised him from the dead on the third day. Check. John was a mystic; he hung out with Jesus for 3+ years. Leaned on his breast, &c. Check. Paul had similar tendecies; he got the right hand of fellowship from the twelve. Check. Witness Who?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

If Paul's mysticism superseded that of Jesus Christ I would object. Witness Lee, by forcing the contents of his visions on others, showed that he was a fake. A fraud.

There are lots of Christian mystics out there. Not all of them are from God. Beware.

Aron, I'd argue that a Christian practicing mysticism isn't being Christian at all, or at the very least that their beliefs influenced by mysticism are not from God.

[Mrsflib]

Well this took off in a different direction! About mystics and how I meant it. I mean that our relationship with God, our interaction with Him is mysteriously beautiful. There are those saints both past and present who communicate well this other-worldly, transcendent relationship we call Christianity. Their works draw me closer to Jesus and more obedient to Him. Like; the N.T. writers, especially John, Tozer, Thomas Kelly, E. Stanley Jones and thousands of others. That's ALL I was saying.

Blessings,
Fliberty

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Mrsflib

Well this took off in a different direction! About mystics and how I meant it. I mean that our relationship with God, our interaction with Him is mysteriously beautiful. There are those saints both past and present who communicate well this other-worldly, transcendent relationship we call Christianity. Their works draw me closer to Jesus and more obedient to Him. Like; the N.T. writers, especially John, Tozer, Thomas Kelly, E. Stanley Jones and thousands of others. That's ALL I was saying.

Blessings,
Fliberty

Welcome to the forum, Mrsflib!

Since this is your thread, you can take it any direction you would like.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Mrsflib

Well this took off in a different direction! About mystics and how I meant it. I mean that our relationship with God, our interaction with Him is mysteriously beautiful. There are those saints both past and present who communicate well this other-worldly, transcendent relationship we call Christianity. Their works draw me closer to Jesus and more obedient to Him. Like; the N.T. writers, especially John, Tozer, Thomas Kelly, E. Stanley Jones and thousands of others. That's ALL I was saying.

Blessings,
Fliberty

Jesus spoke of His relationship with the Father. AND (sorry but I simply had to all-cap) He spoke of this relationship presaged in scripture. See e.g. Luke 18:31; 22:37; 24:44; Rom 1:1,2. . . I could spend the rest of my life looking at the Psalms alone. I haven't even started Isaiah!!

Nothing wrong with being a bit loopy. I enjoy it. But I don't make my subjective experiences the required basis of church fellowship. Witness Lee did, so I say beware of such starry-eyed folk. They may be looking at wandering stars.

As far as Bill and Patsy Freeman, I never met him nor read his work, but they say that Patsy was the power behind the throne. She ran the show, and Bill was the resident mystic-in-chief. I've heard this from several, who posted of their experiences there.

Question: was "Sister Lee" the real power behind the Lee Empire? Did she put a bee in Lee's bonnet regarding sons Timothy & Philip, to siphon off resources to the family? In LSM-land, they tell no tales. But I will say this, Lee was mystic-in-chief, and if you followed him, you got both the highs and the lows. I'll pass.

Let me give a hint: we never even knew "Sister Lee's" name. Witness was up front. She was behind the curtain doing something.

Patsy Freeman's error was that she didn't hide her meddling.

Anyway, that's where 'spirituality' will take you if you're not careful. So be careful. God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day. Like I said, you will never plumb this depth.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am curious to know if this denomination/fellowship is still active?
And, what works from these men of God and their followers do you recommend?
Is it a cult?
Are you here for it or against it?

Thanks for hearing me out,
Mrsflib

My personal opinion (as I can only speak for myself) is that it is a cult, and it will damage you if you join. Its still very active, I think a lot of people in the group are really passionate about Jesus and I respect that but there's a price to pay - many really - for being in it. You become weird, you lose social skills, you are kept from the opposite sex, you are taught not to think for yourself etc there are lots of reasons why its a really unhealthy thing to be a part of. I've been out for about a year and I'm still recovering.

Many of the members love it and would gladly give their life to it (like I did years earlier), overlooking issues like the ones that motivated me to leave and call it a cult. Thats their decision and I don't feel the need to dissuade them.

One of my good friends recently returned to the group after years of calling it a cult and actively 'buries his head in the sand', refusing to listen to anything I have to say on the matter, only wanting to listen to 'life'. I think its sad, but he thinks it sad that I let the negative things stop me from enjoying the 'ministry'. He thinks I'm poisoned and leprous, I think he's brain-washed and ignorant. We can't get on well unless we promise to avoid discussing it.

Likewise, you'll see a lot of bickering on this forum. Lots of very different opinions, fueled by very strong emotions. Don't let it put you off.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My personal opinion (as I can only speak for myself) is that it is a cult, and it will damage you if you join. . . .One of my good friends recently returned to the group after years of calling it a cult and actively 'buries his head in the sand', refusing to listen to anything I have to say on the matter, only wanting to listen to 'life'. I think its sad, but he thinks it sad that I let the negative things stop me from enjoying the 'ministry'. He thinks I'm poisoned and leprous, I think he's brain-washed and ignorant.

The constant stream of negative assessments on "Christianity", from the most blatant ("satanic, devilish, deformed") to the more subtle ("not many Christians know that. . .") has several mutually reinforcing effects.

First, you think, Wow this guy must be really godly yo be able to criticize others like that. I mean, if he goes on long diatribes about religion then he must not be 'religious', right? Stands to reason....

Then your conscience gets damaged because you sit there day after day listening to what is essentially a stream of curses, without protesting or trying to defend the cursed in "Christianity". Your ability to either think independently, to reason, or to hear the Shepherd's voice becomes greatly hindered. You've become reprogrammed to hear only the 'ministry'.

Third, you become convinced "there is nothing out there", so like a person returning to an abusive relationship, you return to get more 'life'.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, I was doing a google search on Bill Freeman whilst reading one of his books. Love to find out more about authors. This website was a link. I believe I did read the thread. However, I didn't know what any of it was about...the LCM, Lee and Nee (though I have heard of them). I'm always on the search for works from saints past....the Christian mystics...if you will, that draw by heart closer to Jesus and to his Bride.

So, I'm wondering what the purpose of this board is and is it fulfilling that purpose? This is all new information to me on a 'leg' of the church I've not explored before. What I'm looking for is the discussion and inspiration from the teachings of the movement.

I am curious to know if this denomination/fellowship is still active?
And, what works from these men of God and their followers do you recommend?
Is it a cult?
Are you here for it or against it?

Thanks for hearing me out,
Mrsflib

I think I will respond to this. (BTW - 1st post on here in six years!) I meet with the group of believers in Scottsdale AZ, who were originally with Bill Freeman. I started meeting consistently with these ones right after Bill Freeman left (aka the mess with his wife, Patsy, that others have mentioned on this thread). This was in 1998.

This group had broken from the authority of Witness Lee and the Local Churches, I think in the late 1980's or maybe early 1990's, for many of the reasons that have been enumerated repeatedly on this forum. Personally, I was with the Local Churches in Ohio about ten years prior (1987-88), but left as there was a bit of a strange atmosphere there, and I also relocated for work.

My testimony of being with this Scottsdale group of believers has been overwhelmingly positive (big understatement). Since being here these 20 years, I have seen in a fresh way, how much the Lord's love is central to His purpose and everything He does. We are quite interconnected with believers who meet with other groups, and there is none of the elitism I experienced in the LC.

There are many groups of believers that get into trouble once central authority is allowed to supplant local authority. It's what the flesh likes to do - control. Church history is littered with examples. The LC actually preached against falling into this same trap, and then did it themselves. This type of authority supplants the authority of Christ and becomes another man-made organization. Man becomes the head of the church instead of its proper Head, Christ. I have experienced zero amount of this in Scottsdale these last 20 years. Bill Freeman was certainly a huge influence here, and on the whole, I would say it was a very good influence (albeit a few obligatory "warts").

As far as the LC being a cult, I've kicked this debate around for maybe 30 or more years. The LC did impose what I considered a high degree of covert (as opposed to overt) influence and there was an air of elitism that separated the group from other believers, but I actually think we would be challenged to find many denominations that don't exude something like this. In the end, I think the LC got off track and got way too authoritarian. But people could and did leave all the time if they didn't like it. So nobody was held captive or forced to do things against their will, and no one's life was threatened (which would be overt control - I heard this explained as what a real cult is about). I did see in the LC some of what I thought, in a small way, approached the Amish attitude of fear-projected/legalism regarding various things, including if one wanted to leave the LC. Here in Scottsdale (Bill Freeman's group), I've never experienced anything close to that.

So you might be able to say that there was some sorta-kinda cult-like atmosphere in the LC, but the group aligned with Bill Freeman left all that behind in my mind.

Please feel free to ask me what you want. However, please know I'm no authority on Bill Freeman . . . I've just been around 20 years experiencing the seeds this brother has sown!

(I won't get into the whole discussion about Christian mystics, as I've been in enough of these kind of discussions over the years - others can hash all that out. To me, it's something akin to an endless genealogy that will do little to build one another up.)