Relationships/Courting

[TLFisher]

On the topic of relationships/courting this doesn’t apply to many of us anymore, but this post is for those who are still single.
It’s been touch already in different posts, but I did want to comment further on the matter of relationships/courting in the local churches. For good reason dating isn’t encouraged. Not in high school and not in college. Yet sound explanations aren’t always provided why by serving ones. You will be told as I was many years ago, not until you’re ready to get married. Who makes that determination?
When that time comes, how to you get to know someone well enough to determine if there’s something there to be built into friendship and beyond? When I was a single brother, it was a difficult issue to deal with. I’m sure other single brothers and sisters grappling with the same problem.
The system produced such weirdness. How to relate to one another without being so weird? How to speak to one another as we really are? It’s as if there’s a magnetic field that prevents the humanity of brothers and sisters from shining through as they actually are instead of what groupthink dictates how a single brother single sister should speak and act. Groupthink meaning spiritual is good and the soul is bad. Brothers may have the concept to be a good brother your have to be for the ministry. If a brother bears his soul, he’s a worldly brother.
We are social beings, but in the local churches have become segregated socially to only those of our respective genders. As a result single brothers and sisters are unable to be unprogrammed from the teaching “don’t talk to sisters” or “don’t talk to brothers” as they enter into the workforce.
I’ll stop here for someone else to continue with the conversation.

[awareness]

The church has no business being involved in relationships and courting. Just who do they think they are, parents? Oh I forgot. They are a cult.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

The church has no business being involved in relationships and courting. Just who do they think they are, parents? Oh I forgot. They are a cult.

Somehow this basic fact never occured to many of us. For those like myself who grew up in the LC, the ideology was pushed on us even at an early age. It seemed reasonable in the sense that we thought that the elders were simply looking out for our best interests.

It didn’t occur to me there was anything abnormal about it until I saw the attempts at meddling and matchmaking backfire on several people. When I came to see what was really going on, and how leaders were abusing the trust that was placed in them, I realized how wrong it really was.

What also was insightful was all the evasive answers I received when I tried to address such concerns. I heard people try to rationalize why matchmaking was needed. I heard denial that the LC interferes in relationships. I saw deliberate attempts to break up relationships, and when I tried to get people to acknowledge what was happening, the response was just to shrug it off as if it were nothing.

I am not married yet, but I consider that to be much better than to have been pushed into an arranged marriage.

[awareness]

Freedom indeed. Hope you're very grateful.

You said, "we thought that the elders were simply looking out for our best interests."

As it turned out this was not my case at all. I'll keep my story as short as possible.

I came into the church in Santa Cruz, Cal. circa 1970. I spent about a year there. I went to my first conference at Witness Lee's The Kingdom Conference in L.A.

Well my stomping ground, and where I grew up, was the Detroit Michigan area. Lo and behold, unbeknownst to me, there was a small local church there, of about 40. Kangas was the leader elder.

At the conference, when Kangas, or one of the other elders, found out I was from Detroit, they approached me, pressuring me to move back, and be in the church in Detroit. They flattered me. I didn't know it, but the church was full of old people, and they desperately needed young people, for the outreach. So I hopped on a plane, and moved back.

These were the days when Witness Lee was saying, "brother's, it doesn't matter who you marry. Marry any sister, and go on with Christ and the Church."

I was single, and living with one of the elders. They still needed more young people in Detroit. Young sisters would be good too. So at the dinner table one night the elder asked me, "Isn't there at least one sister back in Santa Cruz, that you would consider marrying?" Feeling the pressure, I said, "I don't know. I guess there's one Chinese sister I had a little interest in." He broke out into a mock prayer, saying, "Oh Lord. Show me the sister you want to be my wife. Give me a sign. May she being wearing a polka dot dress, with a cow bell around her neck." Then he turned to me and said something like, "you better contact her before another brother gets her."

I know it sounds crazy. I was very spiritual. I wrote to her, and asked her to marry me. Trouble is, I didn't really know her. I saw her in the meetings, and we once rode in a car together, with 4 others, to a conference in San Fran. And that's all. But what did I know? Wasn't the elder in touch with God? Might it have been God wanting me to contact her?

Turns out she was living in a sister's house, with a bunch of my female friends from Detroit. When they got wind of the letter it became a real scuttlebutt ; at least a sensation in the sister's house. They told her, or shouted to her, to say yes.

Long story very very short. She took it to the elders, they called Kangas in Detroit, we got married in Santa Cruz, she became the next young person in the c. in Detroit.

None of it was "in OUR best interest."

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Terry

We are social beings, but in the local churches have become segregated socially to only those of our respective genders. As a result single brothers and sisters are unable to be unprogrammed from the teaching “don’t talk to sisters” or “don’t talk to brothers” as they enter into the workforce.
I’ll stop here for someone else to continue with the conversation.

This is the single most damaging thing I got from being in there, it'll take me years to overcome. But hey good news I had a date last night, I think she's really into me and wow is she *stunning*! She enthusiastically agreed to another date. I'm gradually learning how to be with women lol

[clever sister]

A couple of years ago I met up with a sister, not sure if she was still meeting with LC at the time, she was just in the same city as me for work.
She was dating someone not in LC, and I was single (as I still am) and we talked about how LC expects us to marry someone in LC, but all the single brothers were uhh... single for a reason.

The number of brothers who had no idea how to speak to sisters was astonishing. I found it tended to improve once they got married, but that's no help to a single sister!

Also, when I was part of Christians on Campus, I remember a new one (I don't think she stuck around long) at a lunch leaning over to me and asking "Why are there separate tables for guys and girls". I didn't know how to answer that. It really is abnormal.

Also, good for you Bradley!

[Evangelical]

"how to you get to know someone well enough to determine if there’s something there to be built into friendship and beyond? "

When we look at courtship in the Bible, there is really little support for the idea of long-term courtship for the purpose of "getting to know if someone is right for you".

I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together. This is why arranged marriages often work and couples that have been dating for too long (say up to 10 years) lose interest in each other and fall apart when the chemicals of attraction decline. I know Indian couples who are not Christians who have long and happy marriages despite not knowing each other before marriage.

The bible shows that God created Adam and brought Eve to him. He did not tell Adam to "try her out", or "see if you like her and if not I'll make you another". Neither did God create a few women and ask Adam to date each one for a year. The modern day concept of 1-5 year "dating" with the "try before your buy" idea is really a modern concept.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together.

That is just crazy!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That is just crazy!

It's a modern day myth that two people need to spend a long time together to create a bond and then when they feel ready, they are ready for marriage.

God intended marriage, not dating, for creating lasting, long-term bonds. Adam and Eve got married very quickly and then got to know each other better later. This is why many fall into sexual sin before marriage - people in a long term relationship e.g. 3 years, often commit fornication because they "can't wait". They follow their natural desires as God intended but due to some social stigma for getting married "too early", they fall into the trap of waiting too long and so fall into fornication.

Here are some stories of people who married a short time after meeting, and had long marriages:

https://www.shape.com/lifestyle/sex-...theyd-just-met

Also, short courtship periods are the norm in many cultures, or non-existent, and used to be in western culture too.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

[I]I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together...

One month is definitely not enough time to see past the “best version” of ourselves we all put up! Ha! No way, I’m sorry. I have a close friend who met and married someone quickly- only to find out after they married that he was bi-polar and she met him while he was in his “up” state. We all have highs and lows in life and I would suggest similar backgrounds as a naturally commonality and oil in your relationship (not for everyone- but many!), also- how do they react when they’re upset? What are their limits? What is taboo to them? Have you seen them upset? Stressed? In a rage of anger? Is one month enough time to see someone’s weaknesses as well as their strengths?

[Evangelical]

On the topic of elder interference, I agree that elders can interfere more than they should. So can parents, siblings, friends, co-workers and anyone else who wants to help.

In my experience, I have seen some wise elders who do not really interfere, but have seen some young single brothers or sisters who believe they are the next Dr Phil.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

[I]I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together...

Please be careful saying this too- you never know who could be reading. I know of two devastatingly awful arranged marriages where there were 3 or less dates. There will be some that make it- yes. But one month is not going to be long enough the vast majority of the time. Sorry- I don’t know why this upset me but you may have just not seen the train wrecks that kind of thinking produces.

[Evangelical]

I agree. 3 dates is crazy. That's like 3 hours. The time required depends on the individuals and their circumstances. I believe 1 month total of quality time together, or 720 hours. That could be 8 hours per week for 90 weeks, or 1 hour a day for 720 days (about 2 years). I am only counting time actually spent together, other time, "waiting time" doesn't really count. If two people say they have dated for 3 years but only see each other for one day a year that is the equivalent of only 3 days.

[calvinnme]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"how to you get to know someone well enough to determine if there’s something there to be built into friendship and beyond? " When we look at courtship in the Bible, there is really little support for the idea of long-term courtship for the purpose of "getting to know if someone is right for you".
I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together. This is why arranged marriages often work and couples that have been dating for too long (say up to 10 years) lose interest in each other and fall apart when the chemicals of attraction decline. I know Indian couples who are not Christians who have long and happy marriages despite not knowing each other before marriage.
The bible shows that God created Adam and brought Eve to him. He did not tell Adam to "try her out", or "see if you like her and if not I'll make you another". Neither did God create a few women and ask Adam to date each one for a year. The modern day concept of 1-5 year "dating" with the "try before your buy" idea is really a modern concept.

Yes, but when I was in the LC 1977-1981, I saw people getting married who literally did not know one another. They were not arranged marriages at all, just the acts of completely unexperienced young people whose courtship did not get past the infatuation stage. When they got engaged I was often surprised that they even knew one another. Thus there were some disasters. One that stands out is a marriage between a girl and guy who were completely unsuited to one another. They were plenty old enough - 25 and 26 - but when the infatuation stage wore off they were already married, they could actually "see" one another for who they were, and the arguing began. She began to see him as not smart enough for her and thus had no respect for him. They tried joining the army. They tried having a baby. Ultimately after about eight years of misery they parted ways. In his 30s he found a girl just right for him. I don't know what happened to her. I could tell other similar stories of disaster, but you get the picture.

I agree that the world's way of courting for 10 years before marriage is ridiculous. I think six months to a year is plenty of time. That gives you time to let the infatuation stage wear off and see if - the other party is a spendthrift, or is addicted to gambling, or has annoying habits you cannot abide, or if they have layabout relatives you will be expected to support, etc.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by calvinnme

Yes, but when I was in the LC 1977-1981, I saw people getting married who literally did not know one another. They were not arranged marriages at all, just the acts of completely unexperienced young people whose courtship did not get past the infatuation stage. When they got engaged I was often surprised that they even knew one another. Thus there were some disasters. One that stands out is a marriage between a girl and guy who were completely unsuited to one another. They were plenty old enough - 25 and 26 - but when the infatuation stage wore off they were already married, they could actually "see" one another for who they were, and the arguing began. She began to see him as not smart enough for her and thus had no respect for him. They tried joining the army. They tried having a baby. Ultimately after about eight years of misery they parted ways. In his 30s he found a girl just right for him. I don't know what happened to her. I could tell other similar stories of disaster, but you get the picture.

I agree that the world's way of courting for 10 years before marriage is ridiculous. I think six months to a year is plenty of time. That gives you time to let the infatuation stage wear off and see if - the other party is a spendthrift, or is addicted to gambling, or has annoying habits you cannot abide, or if they have layabout relatives you will be expected to support, etc.

In retrospect over 4 decades I Have not seen any evidence that suggests hastily arranged marriages or longer courtships endure better of one over the other.

Anecdotal examples can be cited to support any contention.

Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by clever sister

A couple of years ago I met up with a sister, not sure if she was still meeting with LC at the time, she was just in the same city as me for work.
She was dating someone not in LC, and I was single (as I still am) and we talked about how LC expects us to marry someone in LC, but all the single brothers were uhh... single for a reason.
The number of brothers who had no idea how to speak to sisters was astonishing. I found it tended to improve once they got married, but that's no help to a single sister!
Also, when I was part of Christians on Campus, I remember a new one (I don't think she stuck around long) at a lunch leaning over to me and asking "Why are there separate tables for guys and girls". I didn't know how to answer that. It really is abnormal.
Also, good for you Bradley!

I second that. Good for your Bradley.
Well clever sister, those of us brothers raised in the local churches, at an early age perhaps beginning at 6-7 grade we begin being told "don't talk to sisters". Year after year of that teaching, it becomes ingrained. Equally as much we're taught to be obedient and submissive to those older than us. Another reason brothers tend to be awkward and inept when it comes to speak with sisters is fear of man. They don't want to be rebuked for speaking to a sister. Though there's always the possibility sisters are equally awkward when a single brother is speaking with the. They go into a panic. Thinking how to get away before a "responsible brother" sees the conversation.
How do you break the cycle? Only feasible option is to have blatant disregard for "the brothers" who give fellowship on the matter. Of course that would be received as being rebellious.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Terry

I second that. Good for your Bradley.
Well clever sister, those of us brothers raised in the local churches, at an early age perhaps beginning at 6-7 grade we begin being told "don't talk to sisters". Year after year of that teaching, it becomes ingrained. Equally as much we're taught to be obedient and submissive to those older than us. Another reason brothers tend to be awkward and inept when it comes to speak with sisters is fear of man. They don't want to be rebuked for speaking to a sister. Though there's always the possibility sisters are equally awkward when a single brother is speaking with the. They go into a panic. Thinking how to get away before a "responsible brother" sees the conversation.
How do you break the cycle? Only feasible option is to have blatant disregard for "the brothers" who give fellowship on the matter. Of course that would be received as being rebellious.

I'm not saying it was the brothers fault, only it was something that happened. I'm sure there were sisters who couldn't talk to brothers, as well, but I guess a blushing bride is more attractive than a stuttering groom.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I'm not saying it was the brothers fault, only it was something that happened. I'm sure there were sisters who couldn't talk to brothers, as well, but I guess a blushing bride is more attractive than a stuttering groom.

I understand. I was trying to convey it's a problem for each gender. It's a systemic problem. Fear of man- fear of what the brothers might think.
Quite often it may appear opinions "the brothers have" has more clout than mutual attraction between a brother and sister.

[Trapped]

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25." And like a little naive sheep with an entire community of laser beam eyes on me watching and judging every interaction I had with a member of the opposite sex, I did just that. Then when I turned 26 I got comments about how I was getting dusty and old. I was so confused....how can I be dusty and old already when I'd been in a straightjacket my whole life till just the year prior? After being told "run, stay away, evil, sex, ruin your life" about any interaction with a member of the opposite sex, suddenly I found myself in my late twenties wondering when the "ok, go ahead, you can interact with them now" would be spoken. Then it hit me ..... how can you possibly get to be interested in anyone when you have been prohibited from normal casual conversational interactions with them? When eye contact/smiling/laughing (i.e. a normal conversation between two humans) is tantamount to jumping into bed? I am a rule follower by nature and having grown up in the environment where everything spoken by the "saints" is essentially passed off as being from God's lips straight to your ears, I just didn't know to doubt or question anything. I just didn't know. All I know to do is shut down around the opposite sex who are my age and act like I could "take 'em or leave 'em" because that's the coping mechanism you have to develop in order to "stay away" from them the way you are mentally beaten into doing.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25."..

This is exactly why this needs discussion here.

There are all sorts of ways for safe interactions between guys and girls to take place (talking at meetings, meeting in public places, meeting at homes of family or friends when they are there, chaperones, talking over phone or computer...). Yes no fornication. But, come on local church leaders and saints, drop the additions to God’s Word!

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes no fornication. But, come on local church leaders and saints, drop the additions to God’s Word!

It would be interesting to see if, for example, the Chinese Presbyterian Church also had strict separation rules for young people, and bridged the gap by arranged unions. And then ask, how does this compare to the Presbyterian church otherwise? Do you see my point? Are we talking about the LC here, or merely Oriental culture?

Also, how about absolute control by centralised leadership with all constituent assemblies being "absolutely identical, with no differences whatsoever" (per RecV footnotes) versus allowance of local differentiation and latitude in non-essentials? Is this exclusive to the LC or does this have similarities to other Chinese assemblies and religious systems?

If we can see this as Chinese cultural traits, practices, and values writ large across the fellowship of the LC, then we'd be one step closer to breaking its iron hand. LC leadership says, "This is God" but it is merely their preferences dressed up as God. If my comfort equals your misery, why insist on my comfort?

I mentioned earlier that Chinese culture is not to question leadership. Mao cannot be criticised even 40 years after his death - doing so leads to loss of employment and civic position. Perhaps this attitude of not questioning, even when it is clearly counterproductive (miserable, isolated, lost young people) is culturally-driven.

Order over freedom. Even when the order is not from the Bible but from leadership preferences. This is why the LC is increasingly Asian - it matches their culturally-derived concepts and expectations of what is "normal".

And the great dilemma of the LC is that it can't change, even when it clearly needs to. If a local leader sees a solution to the problem, he or she can't act, even if the Holy Spirit leads. Change can only come from Anaheim, from old men who only care for filled conference chairs and book sales.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25."...

Much of what you had to say was my experience when I was single. "how can you possibly get to be interested in anyone when you have been prohibited from normal casual conversational interactions with them?" On one hand you're told not to get involved until you're ready to get married, but at the same time beginning at a young age you're conditioned not to talk to the opposite gender. It was ingrained in me to heed and submit to those elder than me. Years go by and when you reach 25, 26, 27 years old you think when will it be time? If you dare speak to the opposite gender it's like causing that person to have an allergic reaction. The other recourse is not to avoid from engaging in conversation.
At the time, the thoughts were how dare I express exasperation with the system?
Purpose for beginning this thread was to somehow help those who might have been going through the exact something.

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25." And like a little naive sheep with an entire community of laser beam eyes on me watching and judging every interaction I had with a member of the opposite sex, I did just that. Then when I turned 26 I got comments about how I was getting dusty and old. I was so confused....

Wow I can so relate!! Esp w the laser beam eyes. Even other kids our own age would do it so it felt you could never have an opportunity to talk to someone.
It would be interesting to hear more of your story. I was a rule follower too, the peer pressure did not help either. But in my mind I just could not see a future for me there, and I couldn't stand the amount of control. It's validating to read from brothers on this forum that the control in this area is wrong. I didn't want my future children exposed to the intense feelings of shame and guilt over doing nothing. I didn't realize the lasting impact that part of my life would have on me esp since I experienced mutual attraction w someone there. The rebellious part of me didn't want to wait until an elder gave their "blessing" How weird, isn't that the parent's job? With my luck no elder would have given their blessing to me lol and I wasn't about to have years and years of my life taken away from me/ controlled, so I slowly stopped going.
With time, things get better. The distance between the weirdness then and reality now really helps to solidify that the regulations we were raised with were not healthy!

I can so relate to many of the situations here being a church kid myself. I think that the whole treatment and handling of relationships in the local churches is the number one thing that caused me to start seeing all the flaws in the local church and eventually stop meeting. Growing up in the local church environment my memories are of gender segregated meetings from the age of 11 and every single camp/conference/training involved a meeting that was dedicated to brainwashing us about how terrible relationships are (unless you've finished your studies, worked a bit, completed 2 years training and are therefore ready to get married). All sorts of weird illustrations were given such as "its wrong for biological brothers and sisters to be in relationships in real life and therefore it's just the same in the church life between brothers and sisters (until God says otherwise)." As a result the obedient types have next to no ability to communicate normally with the opposite sex. Then you are expected to marry someone in the church life and lets just say... its slim pickings.

I too have observed some semi arranged marriages happen within my locality with a few adding to the casualties.
I especially feel sorry for the sisters passing 30 who are starting to realise that they have been disillusioned by the whole "God will provide a husband" mentality. 90% of your eggs are gone by the time you are 30. Its a stark contrast to the majority of mainstream christianity who in my observations seem perfectly capable of finding and marrying their own spouse.

All I can say is I feel extremely fortunate to have had the sense to not listen to a word of the garbage relationship advice that was force fed to me. I met my (now) husband at these very trainings/conferences as a teen. I am also thankful that our parents weren't fanatical enough to try and force split us up (something I also witnessed amongst my peers). I remember at one training a few of us were sitting around a piano and eventually is was just me, my (now) husband and one other friend of ours. Then some serving one came in and took the "friend" to the side for a quick word. Apparently he was told not to leave the two of us alone by ourselves (so they definitely had their eyes on us). When we were a little older we were often arriving and sitting together in meetings and being seen all over the place together (despite not having the engagement ring of righteousness). The laser beam eyes and curious disapproving vibes were pretty real during those times.

Honestly, I'm pretty bitter about the whole thing, not so much for my sake but for a lot of people that I grew up with. The whole thing is just sad.

[Drake]

-1

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Honestly, I'm pretty bitter about the whole thing, not so much for my sake but for a lot of people that I grew up with. The whole thing is just sad.

Why bitter? Your life turned out good, you married someone from the environment in spite of the restriction and are happily going on, and 95% of the young people who did the same thing also are in a good place.... at least the ones I know. Sure, there are tragedies, divorces, unhappiness and I know of a few over forty years but those may be found anywhere. Human relationships are hard work and there is no pixie dust that makes the challenges all go away. Last thing any Christian group wants is a loose and permissive environment that leads to pregnancy or emotional issues as is a common concern for parents as well. Besides, raging hormones attack young people’s willpower and thier pursuit of the Lord so another line of defense is prudent.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Why bitter? Your life turned out good, you married someone from the environment in spite of the restriction and are happily going on, and 95% of the young people who did the same thing also are in a good place.... at least the ones I know. Sure, there are tragedies, divorces, unhappiness and I know of a few over forty years but those may be found anywhere. Human relationships are hard work and there is no pixie dust that makes the challenges all go away. Last thing any Christian group wants is a loose and permissive environment that leads to pregnancy or emotional issues as is a common concern for parents as well. Besides, raging hormones attack young people’s willpower and thier pursuit of the Lord so another line of defense is prudent.

Like I said, I'm not really bitter for my sake. I'm bitter because the vast majority of my friends and acquaintances that I grew up with either still in it and living under the same rediculous rules whilst slowly losing any optimism for marrying before 30 (which has been their goal) or they have left the LC partly because of the relationship reason and are having to deal with many issues caused by growing up in such a bubble and trying to integrate into the real world.

Amongst my immediate peers I am part of 10% who have managed to forge a relationship for themselves and get married (and for all of us it involved beings "rebelllious").
I don't think young people are given enough credit to be able to work things out for themselves. If they are brought up properly and able to communicate openly with parents about "pregnancy and emotional issues" rather than have it all swept under the rug with a "if make eye contact with the opposite sex you will get pregnant and die" attitude, maybe that would be better than all the unhealthy practices that are going on.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Why bitter? Your life turned out good, you married someone from the environment in spite of the restriction and are happily going on, and 95% of the young people who did the same thing also are in a good place.... at least the ones I know. Sure, there are tragedies, divorces, unhappiness and I know of a few over forty years but those may be found anywhere. Human relationships are hard work and there is no pixie dust that makes the challenges all go away. Last thing any Christian group wants is a loose and permissive environment that leads to pregnancy or emotional issues as is a common concern for parents as well. Besides, raging hormones attack young people’s willpower and thier pursuit of the Lord so another line of defense is prudent.

I'm surprised that you could not understand her feeling for friends and family who have been hurt by LSM's mandates on the young people.

Yet when Phillip Lee ran the LSM, code named "The Office," this same "loose and permissive environment" went on unhindered and even protected by many of the Blendeds willing to win favor with Phillip's Daddy.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I can so relate to many of the situations here being a church kid myself. I think that the whole treatment and handling of relationships in the local churches is the number one thing that caused me to start seeing all the flaws in the local church and eventually stop meeting....

I either know who you are, or know a sister who was in a similar situation to you. I look back and hope that I didn't give judgey vibes, but I remember being curious about the relationship status between these two, until the sister confided in me.
I don't think it is right that two people in a long term relationship should feel like they can't be open about it, just because they are not yet engaged.

Originally Posted by clever sister

I either know who you are, or know a sister who was in a similar situation to you. I look back and hope that I didn't give judgey vibes, but I remember being curious about the relationship status between these two, until the sister confided in me.
I don't think it is right that two people in a long term relationship should feel like they can't be open about it, just because they are not yet engaged.

I'm pretty sure I have figured out who you are and I'm sure you can figure out who I am too We got eaten alive by mosquitos at our hospitality that one time!

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25."...

You're not the only one, I'm sorry! There is absolutely help though. You can learn healthy relationship later in life!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

You're not the only one, I'm sorry! There is absolutely help though. You can learn healthy relationship later in life!

How? I am serious. Any help is appreciated and much needed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

How? I am serious. Any help is appreciated and much needed.

My advice. Forget about relationships. Forget about career. Forget about everything. Ask yourself a few simple, basic questions. The ones God wants you to ask.

Not to put words in your mouth, but here are a few examples:
Did God really raise Jesus from the dead? What then does it mean, "If you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"?

What does 'saved' mean? Who am I? Saved, or not? Why am I here?

Forget about the "hand fits in the glove" crap they spoon-fed you. You need your own answers. And believe me, they will come. God wants you to ask. He said, "Seek and you will find". The LSM tried to shut down your seeking and supply you with their material. Dump it. Start again.

What will happen is that at some point you will ask a question, of God, that will resonate in the core of your being. The answer will surprise you, I guarantee. You will know it is God. "My sheep hear my voice." Follow that voice. You will never get answers, only more questions. But I tell you, the path is peace. Jesus is . . . wow. Words fail me.

Along the way, you will find the Right Person and the Right Job and all that other stuff. But it starts with a question. You just have to find the right one. It is within you.

And I'm not talking 'mysticism' stuff. I am talking Bible. I go by the Word. Period. I supplement it with other readings, but Jesus is the Word of God. It all starts with the Bible. Use your Bible to find the right question. Then God will answer, because He's been waiting for you to ask that question. He wants to tell you something.

Mediators are good and helpful. You will get many companions. But Jesus is the One True Mediator. He is the Faithful Witness. There is only one. Follow him.

God bless your journey.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

My advice. Forget about relationships. Forget about career. Forget about everything. Ask yourself a few simple, basic questions. The ones God wants you to ask.

Not to put words in your mouth, but here are a few examples:
Did God really raise Jesus from the dead? What then does it mean, "If you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"?

What does 'saved' mean? Who am I? Saved, or not? Why am I here?

Forget about the "hand fits in the glove" crap they spoon-fed you. You need your own answers. And believe me, they will come. God wants you to ask. He said, "Seek and you will find". The LSM tried to shut down your seeking and supply you with their material. Dump it. Start again.

What will happen is that at some point you will ask a question, of God, that will resonate in the core of your being. The answer will surprise you, I guarantee. You will know it is God. "My sheep hear my voice." Follow that voice. You will never get answers, only more questions. But I tell you, the path is peace. Jesus is . . . wow. Words fail me.

Along the way, you will find the Right Person and the Right Job and all that other stuff. But it starts with a question. You just have to find the right one. It is within you.

And I'm not talking 'mysticism' stuff. I am talking Bible. I go by the Word. Period. I supplement it with other readings, but Jesus is the Word of God. It all starts with the Bible. Use your Bible to find the right question. Then God will answer, because He's been waiting for you to ask that question. He wants to tell you something.

Mediators are good and helpful. You will get many companions. But Jesus is the One True Mediator. He is the Faithful Witness. There is only one. Follow him.

God bless your journey.

Not following this thread much, but AMEN to what Aron wrote here!!! Ask and He will answer. Sometimes it takes a while. Occasionally it happens almost immediately (I must confess I really enjoy those times!)

And let me add my marital 2 cents - when my wife and I were engaged (20 years a ago), she, being a very inquisitive person (I tell her that her questions would give Socrates a run for his drachma), was fond of asking long-term couples, "What is the secret to your longevity as a couple?" Let me tell ya, the answers were all over the map! Eventually we both came to one conclusion as to what formula makes a marriage work - THERE IS NO FORMULA!

Just as it says "God places the members in the body as He desires" I think the same is true of finding the right person. So pray, and He'll let you know.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

My advice. Forget about relationships. Forget about career. Forget about everything. Ask yourself a few simple, basic questions. The ones God wants you to ask.

Not to put words in your mouth, but here are a few examples:
Did God really raise Jesus from the dead? What then does it mean, "If you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"?

What does 'saved' mean? Who am I? Saved, or not? Why am I here?

Forget about the "hand fits in the glove" crap they spoon-fed you. You need your own answers. And believe me, they will come. God wants you to ask. He said, "Seek and you will find". The LSM tried to shut down your seeking and supply you with their material. Dump it. Start again.

What will happen is that at some point you will ask a question, of God, that will resonate in the core of your being. The answer will surprise you, I guarantee. You will know it is God. "My sheep hear my voice." Follow that voice. You will never get answers, only more questions. But I tell you, the path is peace. Jesus is . . . wow. Words fail me.

Along the way, you will find the Right Person and the Right Job and all that other stuff. But it starts with a question. You just have to find the right one. It is within you.

And I'm not talking 'mysticism' stuff. I am talking Bible. I go by the Word. Period. I supplement it with other readings, but Jesus is the Word of God. It all starts with the Bible. Use your Bible to find the right question. Then God will answer, because He's been waiting for you to ask that question. He wants to tell you something.

Mediators are good and helpful. You will get many companions. But Jesus is the One True Mediator. He is the Faithful Witness. There is only one. Follow him.

God bless your journey.

Thanks for taking the time to write that.

Unfortunately from my time in the LC I am totally closed to being open to God, even though because of that very upbringing, in my living I am still trapped in waiting on Him to bring me a mate.

A while back as I realized I would be "one of those saints" who doesn't get to have a marriage partner at the time in their life when many others do, and a nascent, angry, realization began in me wrapped up in many church kid concepts about God: "Does God use the marriage thing to break people?" And everything in my experience has bolstered that thought, which has made me so angry that He would *&^% around with people in that way just to get what He wants.

So while opening to God in the way you described may be, and probably is, the pathway to a spouse (although I understand that if I open to God with the intention and goal of a spouse He won't "honor" that because the goal is not purely God Himself......maybe the truth or maybe another concept?), I am at the point where about the only way God can prove to me He is worth opening to is to work out the spouse thing first. (Like "you drop your gun first, then I'll drop mine." "No you drop yours!' "No you drop yours!") So there's a massive, volcanically angry standoff between me and Him that I can't even think about too much because we all know the God of the universe will win every time, and I am convinced that even if He gets me to open to Him, He will end up twisting it so that "He is enough" rather than bringing someone along for me to spend my life with, which thought just pisses me off to no end too.