The local church, the Work and the New Testament Ministry

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

for the sake of expressing a vindictive opinion in a pubic forum you would potentially throw them under the bus without a care. Be more selective in your battles Aron so you don’t cause harm to the innocent.

I requested this of you in the past and doing so here again.

Drake

Okay Drake. No smoking gun, here. Just a lot of coincidences.

But still the point remains: Bat Boy Theology leads, predictably, to results we see both near and far, and with many names.

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

Those are some names, and terms, we can safely associate with LSM.

[Drake]

-1

“Those are some names, and terms, we can safely associate with LSM.“

Yep. Fair game.

Thanks
Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”Again, you want to agree to those guidelines.... then let's discuss it.

I really want someone in the LC to answer theses questions for me.

If not you, then someone else.”

Hi kumbaya,

If you want answers from local church members and since you are acquainted with members of a local church where you live and they with you why don’t you ask them your questions in private setting ? Wouldn’t that yield a better result? Alternatively if you insist on a public setting you could invite some of them to this forum and have an open discussion here. I sure everyone would welcome the fresh perspectives.

Drake

Yes! Better yet... Drake can invite members from his “locality”.

That should be easy enough, right “Drake”

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I was implying that the PEOPLE leading Christians on Campus are all members in the LC. ... yes, the work is different but it's still the same group of people and they are literally EMPLOYED by the LC..

It's just a coincidence, is all. No association between Christians on Campus and the LSM or the LC.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Did you know it's a common cult practice to have recruiting arms that have different names than the groups they're trying to recruit for?

Do you think it's OK for the local church to fall in line with such a misleading practice that's used in Scientology and other cults?

I personally don't. Just be honest about who your group is.

Drake says this is unfair - guilt by association. Like saying, "Hitler ate toast. You eat toast. Therefore you are a mass murderer."

Even if LC misleads, controls, manipulates, shames & isolates, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with similar behaviours of known cults. Don't smear their good name(s).

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

It's just a coincidence, is all. No association between Christians on Campus and the LSM or the LC.



Drake says this is unfair - guilt by association. Like saying, "Hitler ate toast. You eat toast. Therefore you are a mass murderer."

Even if LC misleads, controls, manipulates, shames & isolates, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with similar behaviours of known cults. Don't smear their good name(s).

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

My goodness Aron. I’m not sure why you just don’t lay your case out for why each of these are so wrong in your view. I already said these were fair game so have at it. Tear 5hose Rainbow Booklets apart! You show’em!

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

My goodness Aron. I’m not sure why you just don’t lay your case out for why each of these are so wrong in your view. I already said these were fair game so have at it.

Drake

Nothing wrong, Drake. Just an awful lot of names for a church that says there should be no name but Jesus.

Oh, but that's not the church, right? That's just the ministry, sprouting names left and right. And the church workers are full-time ministry employees. But pay no mind.

"Rhema Literature Distributors is a group of believers throughout the earth engaged in a single mission - to actively distribute the highest quality Christian literature. In over 100 countries and more than 25 languages, we distribute according to a simple principle - all our literature is given away completely free.

We are distributing the books that have helped us the most to understand the Bible and to know and experience Christ in our daily life. In particular, we work closely with Living Stream Ministry to distribute a number of key titles by their authors.

We are a nonprofit charity whose distribution is made possible by gifts from believers and churches from all over the world. They have entrusted us with the means to be a free and broad channel of supply to all those seeking to know God in a deep and satisfying way."

Witness Lee, incorporated. And processed, transformed and intensified. . . the more they try to hide the associations, the more cultic they look. "Oh, we're just Christians who enjoy Christ in oneness with all believers here in Smithville." And the more cultic they look, the more shell games they have to play with names, papering over corrupt relations.

[Drake]

-1

Okay, Aron. For arguments sake, let’s eliminate every one of those ministry initiatives. Poof, they’re gone! You got your greatest wish.

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

How about we examine ministries based on Paul's word in II Corinthians?

Why don't you start by commenting on Boxjobox' testimony of the LSM takeover in San Diego, since it violates II Cor. 6, and has been duplicated in nearly every LC.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay, Aron. For arguments sake, let’s eliminate every one of those ministry initiatives. Poof, they’re gone!

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

Poof they're gone hallelujah.

What does a biblical ministry in a local church look like? Good question.

Answer: it looks an awful lot like Jesus and the discipled ones in the 4 gospels. But careful! The "Jesus figure" in this setting is not Witness Lee, or some other guru. The only one with this role is Jesus himself.

Notice that Lee spent 60-70% of his efforts in the epistles, a conveniently-enough abstract setting for his jumping off into the imaginarium, into Bat Boy Theology, into la-la land. In this setting, Christ was whatever the ministry chose at that moment to satisfy the apparent need. "Today's Moses" - Today's Moses is Jesus. Read Peter in Acts 3:22,23 and Stephen in Acts 7:37. A prophet God has raised up, like Moses. You must hear him. Now, that corresponds to the Jesus of the gospels!

Another 20% or 30% is in the OT, mining for disjointed aphorisms and props for the imaginarium. For example, "re-plastered houses" means congregations that heard about Lee's machinations and his profligate sons, and needed leadership purges. All quite biblical, and all quite crazy. Or, "drunken Noah" - biblical, but Bat Boy-level whacko.

The gospels and the actual person of Jesus got maybe 10%. Where he could be fit in. Which wasn't often. I'll never forget the day the FTTA trainer told us, "Don't waste your time" with the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, who cannot repay you in this age. I was aghast, I was stunned. This sounded nothing like the Jesus of the gospels. It took me a couple more years to get the courage, but one day I walked out, with no housing, job, network. All gone, all swallowed by the ministry (i.e., LSM). But I had a dream & refused to give it up. I went into a shelter, got a temp job and kept going. And Jesus has met me, again and again, on the journey.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks Boxjobox,

First, the BEMA is real. I cannot speak for the one that mentioned it to you first, but if you read my comment on it, I applied to myself, Witness Lee, and Watchman Nee as well. Every christian will be judged at the Bema for how they build on the foundation. Ultimately, He is the righteous Judge and I am certain we both agree on that. Though it may not have been presented to you in a considerate way it is nevertheless an important event that we should have in view while in this life.

Yet, I still do not understand what is your view on the New Testament work of ministry.... the scriptural view of course. Because, the situation can be cast in any number of ways, but the glaring vacancy in your description is that there appears to be no work of ministry to care for and shepherd the local churches. You are someone that at an earlier time was impressed with the teaching about the local churches and enjoyed the church life for some time. Along comes LSM and asserts itself as "the husband of every LC" in your view..... but to that I say, not so at all. I never felt LSM was a husband in the half dozen churches I was in for forty years. Not one iota. Not even a little bit. But then, I understood the relationship to be the legitimate work of ministry according to the scriptures for the building up of the local churches, not a husband because we have only one Husband. So we are servants with a commission obligated to carry out our function before the Lord. The work of ministry is not the duty of a husband, rather it is a service to local churches to build the Body of Christ. If you do not have the scriptural definition of the work of ministry in your understanding then you will misinterpret the relationship between the work of ministry and the local churches.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if the history tab on the SD local church website mentions Brother Lee. If the connection is important it is in the Link tab and there you will find it. I would prefer the history not mention the work through which it came about because each local church was raised up by the Lord no matter which servant was the instrument. Yet, no one is distancing themselves from LSM.... even the Church in Cleveland links themselves to LSM!

thanks for the dialogue
Drake

Drake,
In the NT, ministry, ministers, my ministry, the ministry, your ministry, etc, is basically working with the Lord for the saints and the church, and the gospel. When I first came meet with the local church, the saints, including the elders, worked for the benefit of the saints, for the church. It was a good time of mutual fellowship. Slowly, WL material became the primary focus, elders began going to " elder's meetings" things began to change from local to all things WL. The taste of the meetings, the suspicions that some were not fully into WL, clearing out of things not LSM began to occur at an ever rapid rate. It was a time of unsettling- if this was supposed to be the building up of gold, silver, precious stones, it felt more like splintering wood, smelly hay and I like to hike but hate hiking on trails where the mules and horses have walked. Saints began to get discouraged, unsettled, questioning motives- you were either in or out. Finally, the one elder who was probably the best example of a shepherding elder left, the edict of fully following WL/LSM came and it was obvious- despite what you may think or say, that the church took on a new husband- polygamy really. Following Christ, following WL same thing. In fact, the reigns were really turned over to WL. I left at this time in that I could no longer stomach the situation. As one brother said to me- we didn't leave the church, the church left us. Do you really want to ask me about ministry? One knows when there is help, and encouragement, and fellowship and love, and grace and brotherhood and when a mom and pop company gets bought out by a corporation. Drake, LSM is a business! I really don't think you can justify a business running the local church.

I have to again echo the wise observation of W Née: When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.

WL was most instrumental in establishing the LCs in The US, and then corrupted them by overpowering them with his business. Two husbands! Christ is just a product to be merchandised. The local churches need to be recovered by, repenting, dumping LSM and getting back to the ministry of the saints in the local church. Popery is an ugly thing. The real problem with WL's ministry is that it brought everyone back to the 4th century and then rebuilt according to the Roman Catholic model.

[Boxjobox]

By the way, and maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I sort of remember W Née and his books not being so popular because LSM did not have the copyrights to a lot of them. Now that WL is gone and the LSM does have the copyrights they are being merchandised- am I right? Business is business, and you don't want competition. Squash or buy out the competition, or sue them and profits are to be made.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

By the way, and maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I sort of remember W Née and his books not being so popular because LSM did not have the copyrights to a lot of them.

That's been my experience. Non-LSM publishers of WN was scrutinized whereas LSM published books of WN was good as notarized.