Witness Lee's church puts women's virginity above

[heda lexa]

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.

[Ohio]

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.

I find your comment a little racist. It must be because Lee was Chinese and they are sooooo ancient. And don't forget the golden chariot drawn by 4 horses filled with the gold dowry. It's all important in a Chinese wedding.

Such good ol' family values couldn't possibly be 1960's American customs right? or even ancient Hebrew/biblical?

[UntoHim]

Welcome to the forum heda lexa! You bring up some very serious issues in regards to the culture and practices within the Local Church movement.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

Mr. E,
While you were busy quoting verses you forgot to ad this one:
"Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior."
2 Timothy 2:16

"Promotes a book"? The only book that is promoted on this forum is the Bible. Nee and Lee are quoted every Wednesday...are they being promoted as well? The quotes are provided to foster discussion...or food for thought if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any forum member, you are more than welcome to suggest a quote or a quip. (Wednesday is reserved for Nee/Lee quotes and Saturday is reserved for quotes by women/sisters)

"Verses were put there by Satan". Jane Anderson never wrote any such thing, or even faintly implied it. Are you really that obtuse or that incurably dense? Her issues were clearly with the translation from the original languages, as well as the interpretations down through the years. Jane made a thoughtful and persuasive case that women/sisters have been systematically excluded from the translation work and even interpretation of the Bible, and the Christian church is much the worse for it. Things have improved in recent history, but we still have a long way to go.

-

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Welcome to the forum heda lexa! You bring up some very serious issues in regards to the culture and practices within the Local Church movement.



Mr. E,
While you were busy quoting verses you forgot to ad this one:
"Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior."
2 Timothy 2:16

"Promotes a book"? The only book that is promoted on this forum is the Bible. Nee and Lee are quoted every Wednesday...are they being promoted as well? The quotes are provided to foster discussion...or food for thought if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any forum member, you are more than welcome to suggest a quote or a quip. (Wednesday is reserved for Nee/Lee quotes and Saturday is reserved for quotes by women/sisters)

"Verses were put there by Satan". Jane Anderson never wrote any such thing, or even faintly implied it. Are you really that obtuse or that incurably dense? Her issues were clearly with the translation from the original languages, as well as the interpretations down through the years. Jane made a thoughtful and persuasive case that women/sisters have been systematically excluded from the translation work and even interpretation of the Bible, and the Christian church is much the worse for it. Things have improved in recent history, but we still have a long way to go.

-

Thankyou UntoHim for tempering my remarks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I find your comment a little racist.

Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?

I don't know if the Chinese culture was "peddled" to us. I always felt that the Americans were much more malleable to WL than the Chinese and he seemed fearful to push them too much.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't know if the Chinese culture was "peddled" to us. I always felt that the Americans were much more malleable to WL than the Chinese and he seemed fearful to push them too much.

How else can you interpret the squashing of all things Christmas and Easter, and the use of Chinese New Year for the preaching of the Gospel?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?

This comment is also a little racist as it refers to people's color from white to yellow.

FYI valuing virginity is not Chinese culture it is biblical culture.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This comment is also a little racist as it refers to people's color from white to yellow.

FYI valuing virginity is not Chinese culture it is biblical culture.

If you google "Witness Lee white red black brown yellow" he used these colors all the time to characterize ethnicities.

Or google "Witness Lee typical American" or "Witness Lee Caucasian Chinese" you will see many references in his public speaking. They're all published and visible on-line. Yet I never heard anyone call him racist. Why the double standard?

Valuing virginity is biblical culture. But the larger point remains, that what was chosen and waved by this ministry, and what was ignored or even panned as "fallen" was entirely due to culturally-sourced biases of the expositor.

Everyone has bias. But the problem with LSM is that they presumed there wasn't any, that the only lc culture was "heavenly culture", that critiquing the ministry was tantamount to rebellion against God.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I find your comment a little racist.

The LSM-affiliated lc is shot through with Chinese culture. If pointing that out makes someone racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

The alternative is to ignore the obvious elephant in the room - (Chinese) human culture - and be politically correct and just make occasional comments on the smashed furniture and mysterious piles of elephant dung. Because it's a messy kitchen, you know? Just don't point out what specific kind of mess it is. That might offend someone.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM-affiliated lc is shot through with Chinese culture. If pointing that out makes someone racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

The alternative is to ignore the obvious elephant in the room - (Chinese) human culture - and be politically correct and just make occasional comments on the smashed furniture and mysterious piles of elephant dung. Because it's a messy kitchen, you know? Just don't point out what specific kind of mess it is. That might offend someone.

The value of a woman's virginity is not from Chinese culture it is biblical.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

Arranged marriages were always set up by their families, but in the LSM/FTT's the families usually are left out, and paid staffers are entrusted with the trainee's future.

I'd like to know how many of these arrangements have survived. LSM loves their stats, but we never hear about these ones.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

My wife and I are both FTTA graduates. After finishing the FTTA, I asked a coworker to check with my (now) wife to see if she was available, and if she was willing/interested to talk with me. That brother spoke with her, and then conveyed to me that she was "open." I then contacted her directly and asked her on a date. I think that's fairly normal practice, and many people do skip the "middle-man." I don't think it is fair to say that FTTA "arranges" marriages.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

My wife and I are both FTTA graduates. After finishing the FTTA, I asked a coworker to check with my (now) wife to see if she was available, and if she was willing/interested to talk with me. That brother spoke with her, and then conveyed to me that she was "open." I then contacted her directly and asked her on a date. I think that's fairly normal practice, and many people do skip the "middle-man." I don't think it is fair to say that FTTA "arranges" marriages.

Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. "The brothers" have arranged marriages since my first contact with it in 1972. Do they arrange ALL marriages? No. Although, it was risky for a couple to marry "without permission." You can think of them as pushy, nosey matchmakers who think they know everything.

I know one sister who refused their "match" for her and married someone else from another locality. This couple moved away from Texas, where at last contact, they are still married and still in the LC. This makes the point that some can "get away" with disobedience to the elders and some can't.

One visiting couple who was dating at their first visit were assigned a local to sit with them. Soon, the local was sitting between them and serious effort was made to split them up. These obvious antics were shallow enough that the couple caught on pretty quickly and they stopped coming to meetings. It was so obvious what was going on, you could spot it across the hall. If it weren't so pathetically sad, it would be laughable.

I heard Ray Graver say once that the only thing worse than marrying the wrong person was to never find and marry the right person.

Nell

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?

I didn't consider it "brokered" or related to LSM in any way. I liked this girl, and I wanted to know her situation without embarrassing myself. A major factor is that most in the LC court secretly (I no longer consider this good practice), so an interested young man has little way of knowing if a girl is already seeing someone or not.

Because it is common practice to go through an older person, I also think many sisters consider it too "forward" for a young brother to approach directly. Yet, I also have heard some sisters say they would find it more attractive if a brother did approach directly. So, there is some diversity of opinion. In my own mind at the time, I was seeking council and also some assurance that someone older and wiser than me knew what was going on and was praying for me. I might not do it the same way now, but I have never considered the process nefarious. More old-fashioned.

Also, although many young people may consider it an unwritten rule, I know that LC coworkers and FTTA trainers would be quick to say it isn't and that people are free to approach each other directly (after the training). As for Chinese culture, I'm not sure. This practice may more be a byproduct of FTTA culture where young people are always seeking spiritual confirmation of everything and are afraid to make mistakes.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?

I am not an FTTA grad but I did attend an FTT within the last 10 years and this is basicaly what they told us.

If you are interested in another brother or sister you should go to an elder and tell them. The elder will then approach the person of interest on your behalf. This will keep it all properly "covered".

Some people got together this way.
Some people had no involvement from the elders about who they married.
Some people had elders suggesting they get together even though neither had said they were interested in the other person.

I had a older sister of influence approach me a few years ago telling me how a brother had expressed a desire for a wife, trying to gauge my interest. I honestly can't remember how I reacted but I do know I had a laugh about it afterwards that someone would think I would make a "good wife" for that person.

[aron]

Originally Posted by heda lexa

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children...

The thing to remember about Paul is that he wrote to the age. "Slaves obey your masters" was relevant to the prevailing social order. Paul was saying, not to fight the existing societal arrangements in the individual quest for spiritual freedom.

I think it's clear that women's roles in society have changed a lot in the past 2,000 years. At least, it's clear to most people.

I've asked 10 times on this forum: why did Watchman Nee have works by Madame Jean Guyon and Jessie Penn-Lewis among his 'spiritual classics' and yet women can't teach in the current LSM/lc? "Spiritual Man" shamelessly copied JPL, yet 100 years later women should be silent in church, because "Paul said so"?

It turns out women were merely props, tools to be exploited & abandoned in the quest for power. Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Dora Yu - their time came and went. Once supreme mastership was attained, they had to (re)learn their place.

[Evangelical]

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

[aron]

-1 "Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs."

You don't think that 5,000 years of fallen human culture haven't imprinted themselves upon LSM/lc interpretation & practices? Which verses are (selectively) waved, and which are dismissed as fallen?

Oh, I forgot - China was 'virgin soil', unsullied. WL told us so. Only heavenly culture. And he should know, if anyone, since he was the apostle of the age.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

No one is ignoring these verses, but neither are we instructed to suppress women, abuse or molest them as both of Lee's sons did for decades.

These verses, however, must be balanced with the desires of our Great Shepherd and the Head of the body who often gifts women to be Evangelists, Teachers, Deaconesses, and Prophetesses.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.

Welcome to the forum heda. I'm not familiar with the thought in the LC that, "put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her." The Churches of Witness Lee have a constant drum beat of Witness Lee - I didn't hear the drum beat on a woman's virginity during my time there.

You'll see from the postings of Evangelical that many men within the "LC" don't have a high regard for females. I found this to be true during my time there, which was always sad and a bit confusing. There are many smart and strong women on this forum I'm sure could lend much to your journey.

I haven't seen the forum "promote a book" as Evangelical describes. But then again, I'd be OK with Evangelical. My wife stays at home with the baby and cooks all my meals - shes not a CEO, we don't use a daycare while my wife goes to the gym. So my family passes the Evangelical test. Hurray! Maybe me and Evangelical have more in common then I thought.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

My experience, my mom functioned as the parent a good portion of my childhood. Raised the five of us and did not have continual employment until my youngest brother was in high school.
Ephesians 5:23 is a good verse. However that does not imply the husband should lord over his wife. Rather begin with verse 21 "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Ephesians 5:21-26
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Terry

My experience, my mom functioned as the parent a good portion of my childhood. Raised the five of us and did not have continual employment until my youngest brother was in high school.
Ephesians 5:23 is a good verse. However that does not imply the husband should lord over his wife. Rather begin with verse 21 "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Ephesians 5:21-26
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Let's read what an expert in NT Greek says:

"v 21 is a programmatic statement ("being submissive to one another in the fear of Christ"), applicable to all in the church in a general sense. Only by exegetical gymnastics can it be made directly applicable to both halves of the three groups in 5:22-6:9 (should parents be submissive to children?).... The house tables thus do not advance the argument per se, but answer an implicit question growing out of 2:11-22, viz., If Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in the body of Christ, does this mean that all social hierarchies are abolished? The answer seems to be a resounding 'No.'"

Daniel B. Wallace (professor of New Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary)

This professor, is an egalitarian at heart (reading his articles, he describes such conflict within him). But his knowledge and expertise in the Greek language leads him to conclude as he does.

To say this in a plainer way - if husbands must submit to wives as wives submit to husbands, then parents must submit to children and God/Christ must submit to us. Obviously this does not make sense, neither in English or in biblical Greek. There is only one clear, plain reading of the text. Other interpretations are "exegetical gymnastics".

[Nell]

Originally Posted by heda lexa

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.

Welcome to the Forum, heda lexa.

I have not heard that Lee's church puts women's virginity above anything else. I don't doubt it though. What I have observed is that Lee and sons have no qualms about taking a woman's virginity away for their own sick desires. There are so many Lee and LC related questions beginning with the word "why."

The truth is that Satan hates women. The seed of a virgin woman was born into this world who would bring about Satan's end. Keep in mind that no man had a role in the conception of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Men like Lee and sons were short sighted on the role of woman in defeating God's enemy. Today that shortsightedness is still carried on around the world in the mistreatment of women. Some men carry that shortsightedness to the level of misogyny. You've heard from one misogynist already.

One day, all things will be made right. Until then, we stand in the freedom that Christ has made us free. That may necessitate removing ourselves from the abusive environment.

Blessings to you and your friend, heda lexa.

Nell

Originally Posted by heda lexa

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.

It is damaging to the youth. I remember virginity being spoken about as a treasure as a young girl. Fortunately, I was a sometimes visitor of the LC, my parents were divorced (to which dad's newfound overzealous joining of the LC certainly was a factor) and not there as often as regular members. When I was molested as a child, the last thing I needed to hear was virginity or pureness being heralded regularly. It makes a victim feel even more shame over what happened. If virginity or pureness is to be stressed to children, darkness such as being a victim of a perverse person should also be discussed and it should be made clear, they are not dirty or bad. I never personally felt I was bad from it but see how a child could feel that. Virginity opens discussions or thoughts about sex. If that subject is presented, it should be presented with more information.

I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.

On another note, the LC seriously screwed up some people who grew up within the community. Not only do their peers think they and their families are crazy throughout childhood but some grow up without a true conscience because deep down they believe they can pray and be forgiven and that is normal since all sin in the eyes of the Lord. Ones who do have a conscience struggle with life as well. The kids are over sheltered (it is encouraged they hang out with only other members) and do not learn how to make it in the real world because they are not taught.

I wish you all the best in your journey!

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by NeverfreefromLC

It is damaging to the youth. I remember virginity being spoken about as a treasure as a young girl. Fortunately, I was a sometimes visitor of the LC, my parents were divorced (to which dad's newfound overzealous joining of the LC certainly was a factor) and not there as often as regular members. When I was molested as a child, the last thing I needed to hear was virginity or pureness being heralded regularly. It makes a victim feel even more shame over what happened. If virginity or pureness is to be stressed to children, darkness such as being a victim of a perverse person should also be discussed and it should be made clear, they are not dirty or bad. I never personally felt I was bad from it but see how a child could feel that. Virginity opens discussions or thoughts about sex. If that subject is presented, it should be presented with more information.

I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.

On another note, the LC seriously screwed up some people who grew up within the community. Not only do their peers think they and their families are crazy throughout childhood but some grow up without a true conscience because deep down they believe they can pray and be forgiven and that is normal since all sin in the eyes of the Lord. Ones who do have a conscience struggle with life as well. The kids are over sheltered (it is encouraged they hang out with only other members) and do not learn how to make it in the real world because they are not taught.

I wish you all the best in your journey!

Hi NeverfreefromLC,
{Virtual hug <3}
I'm so sorry you went through that.
Yes I agree. I went through a similar experience and the guilt and shame was the most intense feeling and such a depressing burden. For me it was a member of the LC as well. I mentally checked out. It didn't make sense to see this person worshipping at the table meeting, while my young young self was thinking how does he get away with it while I have to keep it a secret and try to be normal? It was exhausting to keep that secret.
I didn't feel good enough for a brother in the church life. I now know that it wasn't my shame or guilt, it was the accuser. and I know that satan tries to get a foot hold into our lives from trauma we experience. It's so deeply rooted in us at a young age, but lies are nothing compared to the truth!

I keep hearing stories of sexual abuse covered up in the church... it's always going to be a thing because satan wants to steal kill and destroy. I just wish there was more love and care for those who had been through things. But they won't in an environment where the truth of many other issues has been stifled for decades. I could never understand it, but from all the testimonies on this forum, so many things make sense!

For me, I didn't feel pure because I wasn't. I knew I wasn't "pure"... I wasn't innocent like everyone else. And I knew I would have issues from it for awhile, and it took years to work through. It still comes up, but I am learning now to not try to stuff it down, to let God heal me at the deepest level. Sometimes I wish I could have felt safe telling those who knew me, I wish it could have made a difference. But I already knew of some people in the LC who knew about what happened but they looked away. I was ashamed, and didn't want to say anything because I don't like drama or attention, I wanted a solution to the problem that they couldn't give me.

I am thankful that for so many years God was there with me, he loved me when I didn't believe I was lovable. Any time I was in despair he was there for me. I still had such an issue with unbelief and faith but it was because of my wounds from earthly authority figures. God was always there.

What a wonderful feeling to be validated, to be given permission to feel, heal. Who knows how much healing and closure I would have gotten if I was still in the LC and married into it with the package that goes with it. I needed to be free from any pressure to perform and going to meetings, etc, otherwise it would still be festering. All I know is that God loves all His children, no matter where they are physically, spiritually or mentally, and no matter what has happened to them. And I have experienced God's grace and love and mercy, and felt His presence in the hardest moments of my life.

What I have been learning is that our destiny in Christ is to praise and worship Him despite the evil. Because evil has no power. It's so healing to realize this, amidst all the tears and hurt. It's incredible how hard it is to choose to heal, let the wounds open and let God heal. So many suppressed wounds. But God is bigger than wounds it just takes praying for faith and trust, and healing. Every little step of being real and honest sets us free.

It's such an encouragement to me to read all the posts from people who have been out of the LC for decades, to be a witness to your growth and healing and relationship with Jesus. It's awesome!! I remember sitting in meetings thinking about the other side that was told to shut up. Like how I was told to be quiet. The brainwashing could not grab hold of me completely because of what I went through. And thank GOD for that!!!!!!

So I am so glad to have found this forum and to have read so many of your testimonies. Thank you!
My prayer is that we all grow closer to God and into freedom and peace and trust in our Redeemer. Even though it has been hard and there have been so many heart breaking stories shared on this forum, God's grace abounds. And no matter what we have been told, we are not worthless, and we have a place in God's Kingdom! I am growing more and more into faith and trust every day, and I am so so thankful. I used to think God's love was for everyone else, not me. That God would speak to anyone but me. So many layers of lies. So not true!!

Let's kick the devils butt!!!

~Blue Orchid

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by NeverfreefromLC

It is damaging to the youth. I remember virginity being spoken about as a treasure as a young girl. Fortunately, I was a sometimes visitor of the LC, my parents were divorced (to which dad's newfound overzealous joining of the LC certainly was a factor) and not there as often as regular members. When I was molested as a child, the last thing I needed to hear was virginity or pureness being heralded regularly. It makes a victim feel even more shame over what happened. If virginity or pureness is to be stressed to children, darkness such as being a victim of a perverse person should also be discussed and it should be made clear, they are not dirty or bad. I never personally felt I was bad from it but see how a child could feel that. Virginity opens discussions or thoughts about sex. If that subject is presented, it should be presented with more information.

I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.

On another note, the LC seriously screwed up some people who grew up within the community. Not only do their peers think they and their families are crazy throughout childhood but some grow up without a true conscience because deep down they believe they can pray and be forgiven and that is normal since all sin in the eyes of the Lord. Ones who do have a conscience struggle with life as well. The kids are over sheltered (it is encouraged they hang out with only other members) and do not learn how to make it in the real world because they are not taught.

I wish you all the best in your journey!

Hi NeverfreefromLC,
{Virtual hug <3}
I'm so sorry you went through that.
Yes I agree. I went through a similar experience and the guilt and shame was the most intense feeling and such a depressing burden. For me it was a member of the LC as well. I mentally checked out. It didn't make sense to see this person worshipping at the table meeting, while my young young self was thinking how does he get away with it while I have to keep it a secret and try to be normal? It was exhausting to keep that secret.
I didn't feel good enough for a brother in the church life. I now know that it wasn't my shame or guilt, it was the accuser. and I know that satan tries to get a foot hold into our lives from trauma we experience. It's so deeply rooted in us at a young age, but lies are nothing compared to the truth!

I keep hearing stories of sexual abuse covered up in the church... it's always going to be a thing because satan wants to steal kill and destroy. I just wish there was more love and care for those who had been through things. But they won't in an environment where the truth of many other issues has been stifled for decades. I could never understand it, but from all the testimonies on this forum, so many things make sense!

For me, I didn't feel pure because I wasn't. I knew I wasn't. I wasn't like everyone else. And I knew I would have issues from it for awhile, and it took years to work through. It still comes up, but I am learning now to not try to stuff it down, to let God heal me at the deepest level. Sometimes I wish I could have felt safe telling those who knew me, I wish it could have made a difference. But I already knew of some people in the LC who knew about what happened but they looked away. I was ashamed, and didn't want to say anything because I don't like drama or attention, I wanted a solution to the problem that they couldn't give me.

I am thankful that for so many years God was there with me, he loved me when I didn't believe I was lovable. Any time I was in despair he was there for me. I still had such an issue with unbelief and faith but it was because of my wounds from earthly authority figures. God was always there.

What a wonderful feeling to be validated, to be given permission to feel, heal. Who knows how much healing and closure I would have gotten if I was still in the LC and married into it with the package that goes with it. I needed to be free from any pressure to perform and going to meetings, etc, otherwise it would still be festering. All I know is that God loves all His children, no matter where they are physically, spiritually or mentally, and no matter what has happened to them. And I have experienced God's grace and love and mercy, and felt His presence in the hardest moments of my life.

What I have been learning is that our destiny in Christ is to praise and worship Him despite the evil. Because evil has no power. It's so healing to realize this, amidst all the tears and hurt. It's incredible how hard it is to choose to heal, let the wounds open and let God heal. So many suppressed wounds. But God is bigger than wounds it just takes praying for faith and trust, and healing. Every little step of being real and honest sets us free.

It's such an encouragement to me to read all the posts from people who have been out of the LC for decades, to be a witness to your growth and healing and relationship with Jesus. It's awesome!! I remember sitting in meetings thinking about the other side that was told to shut up. Like how I was told to be quiet. The brainwashing could not grab hold of me completely because of what I went through. And thank GOD for that!!!!!!

So I am so glad to have found this forum and to have read so much of your testimonies. Thank you!
My prayer is that we all grow closer to God and into freedom and peace and trust in our Redeemer. Even though it has been hard and there have been so many heart breaking stories shared on this forum, God's grace abounds. And no matter what we have been told, we are not worthless, and we have a place in God's Kingdom! I am growing more and more into faith and trust every day, and I am so so thankful. I used to think God's love was for everyone else, not me. That God would speak to anyone but me. So many layers of lies. So not true!!

Let's kick the devils butt!!!

~Blue Orchid

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

It's such an encouragement to me to read all the posts from people who have been out of the LC for decades, to be a witness to your growth and healing and relationship with Jesus. It's awesome!! I remember sitting in meetings thinking about the other side that was told to shut up. Like how I was told to be quiet. The brainwashing could not grab hold of me completely because of what I went through. And thank GOD for that!!!!!!

~Blue Orchid

Blue Orchid, thanks for telling your story. It helps us, but helps you more.

I happened to hear that powerful statements from the victims and the judge who sentenced that slimy Olympic doctor. She allowed every victim to speak directly to him. Even medical counselors tell us how therapeutic this is for all the victims.

This forum may not be a courtroom with the perps present, but hopefully can help the many LC victims in some small way in their healing.

[awareness]

My heart deeply goes out to victims of sexual abuse in their youth.

I'm close friends, still, with a sister I've known since the church in Detroit, way back in the early 70s.

As a young girl she was sexually molested by her father. Her parents were Baptist missionary's. You would never expect such behavior out of someone that has committed their whole life to preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, in foreign lands. It's bad enough that the abuser was her father. But it's even worse that he was a missionary preacher, that many others looked up to, with innocent respect and admiration, as their model of what it is to be a good upstanding Christian.

In short, the result of such sexual abuse, committed by a preacher father, is that, it did life long damage to this sister. She's struggled her whole life with the psychological damage. She's spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on shrinks, and has been treated with every psychotropic drug that can be prescribed for such psychological conditions. She's tried everything possible, to deal with it, and get on with her life.

Her son, by her first husband in the LC, was sexually molested by her second husband she was with after leaving the LC. So he's got similar psychological issues as his mother. But he won't admit it, and so he doesn't address it, or the mess it has created in his life, and btw, all the additional troubles it has caused his mother. Admitting it is the first step to really dealing with it. She admits it, he doesn't. She finds help but he doesn't.

That's why my heart goes out to BlueOrchid and NeverfreefromLC. May the Lord bless them, and keep them, wherever life leads them.

By the way, today she considers herself a Hindu. She finds more help in the eastern religions, than she finds in Christianity. Go figure. Whatever works.

[HERn]

This is so sad. It is not unique to Christianity or the Lords Recovery.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by awareness

Girls that are molested won't be that valuable.

That first concept is SO harmful to victims of sexual abuse. I know of sisters who felt like they were impure because of something that happened to them, that they had no choice over. It's victim blaming and can make it harder to speak out against abuse as well.

And sisters that aren't married, aren't worth much either, in churches like the local church.

I do feel like on the second point, there was this expected progression of university -> FTT -> serve for one or two years -> get married -> Have babies.

If you don't find a husband pray really hard, and fellowship with the brothers. They'll find one for you!

As a woman who fell off that path and started working I did find it harder to know what my place was in the church life. They often wanted me to help in the campus work, but I felt like that just valued me as a "white face" to attract more "white faces" with. Though what actually happened, is when talking to a new student and they found out I was not a master student but working, they were always kind of like "Why are you here then?"
A valid question, why was I at a university event when I was no longer at university...

Though this also gave me space to question what was really going on, and working in a corporate environment gave me exposure to places where I was valued for my intelligence and my opinion did matter. If I asked why something was done a certain way I was either given a proper explanation and/or given the option to present a better way of doing it.

Of course, people can work both inside and outside the home in a marriage, having a rich and full life. The two partners in a marriage can both do cooking and cleaning, as well as child rearing. Both can take on financial responsibility. In our marriage of over a mere 34 years, both partners continue to put in 150% into the marriage. With regard to child rearing, our functions as parents were different. The man in this relationship did not need to raise his voice to the children because he carried the authority and the kids knew this from an early age. While the wife also had authority in child rearing , she also was the nurturer. Who did the kids go to or call out for when they fell down and needed a bandaid? She did so many things a man could not do. The man did things the woman could not do. His physical strength and spiritual leadership both inside and outside the home are vital. Both parents could and did work outside the home as well as inside the home, and continue to do it successfully, only now enjoying retirement and our grown children their spouses, and the grandchildren. The children benefited immensely. They had opportunities which a double income provides. They grew up with a strong work ethic and are able to give to others because much was given to them (love, nurturing, and discipline). I have to chuckle when people assign automatic jobs to each partner in a marriage, claiming Bible verses to back up their view. Same thing goes for having an intermediary matchmaker and/or permission giver for entering into a marriage. Our matchmaker was Jesus. Prayer was the means we used to determine the match God had for each of us. Fortunately, my spouse felt the same way. Marriage takes an incredible amount of work. There is no free ride on meals and lodging. There is no free ride on expecting the other partner to do what you would not do for yourself. There is great freedom in Christ! He is our center! The problem with having a go-between is that the TWO partners in the relationship have to live with one another for the duration of the marriage contract and go into the marriage with this in view. I got to the point where I realized that 50 years or more would not be enough time with my marriage partner! Finally, it takes a strong Godly woman to step up to the plate and work outside the home. She does double duty. In fact, with the expectation of the traditional thou shalt stay at home, when a woman works outside the home, she is working twice as hard. Going out into the fields to labor and harvest with a toddler in a backback, an infant swaddled in the front, and two older youngsters nearby under their mother's watchful and responsible eye, is no one easy feat. As for the man, it takes a lot of Christ-centered confidence to have this kind of helpmate. It is not for the faint of heart! Both partners put in 150%.