New to this Website

[Baruch]

I am happy to have found this website 3 or 4 days ago. I worshipped with the local churches in Texas and Colorado from 1975 to 1987. My wife and I very politely left after a lot of turmoil in the churches and in our locality 30 years ago. I had a very strong salvation in 1971 through a college ministry and a good foundation in the Word meeting with some evangelical churches until my last year in college. However, I was not entirely satisfied with my Christian experience and was looking for a closer knit community of believers when I met the local church Christians.

I met some wonderful people and my Christian life was revitalized the first three years. It was very exciting being a young person traveling to conferences in different cities, staying with other believers in their homes, going to the love feast every Saturday night and being filled with joy and peace singing hymns in the young people meetings. Best of all I met and married my wonderful wife of 41 years! I was kind of impulsive in those days, naïve and a little crazy in a good way.

However, over time the control issues, being limited to only Living Stream publications, an underlying current of legalism, the continual disparaging of other Christian groups and the constant upheaval from rumors of rebellions and labeling of dissenters as "poisonous" took its toll on my wife and I. It all began to affect my mental health so we quietly went our own way. It took me awhile to decompress, but we eventually started to meet with other Christians in primarily independent Bible churches. We are still committed Christians and I have enjoyed receiving help from other Christians of many varied backgrounds.

After I retired a few years ago I began to study more church history from the early church through the reformation to the present. I'm reading about the exclusive and open brethren and the various Christian writings which had an influence on Watchman Nee and his mentors. I have already found a lot of very interesting narrative and references listed on these forums. I am here to learn and understand everyone's perspective. I pray that God will pour out his grace and mercy on his so that we can forgive others for past wrongs, give us wisdom and discernment to know the truth, and fill us with love for God and for all of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

[kumbaya]

Thank you for posting and welcome! I'm new to this forum also, but haven't been out the church for as long. It's really encouraging, at least for me, to hear about meeting with other Christians after leaving. I'm still having a hard time coming to terms with it. Some doors have been opened so we'll see! I just wanted to thank you for your uplifting and encouraging post

[Ohio]

Welcome to the forum!

Like many bro/sis, you left during the chaos of the late 80's. Most of us in the Great Lakes Area had not a clue as to what really happened, and were kept in the dark thinking it was some vast global conspiracy to take down the ministry of W. Lee. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Unfortunately for LSM, when they decided to quarantine us in 2005-2010, their past history was made available for all to see on the old "Bereans" forum, and now on this one. Before the internet came along, LSM used to hide their old sins under the cover of lies, but now all can see who they really are.

I too read much on the initial Brethren split in order to understand the underlying dynamics at work in both of the exclusive systems. Darby's actions against Newton and Muller exposed everything. If you read any of the Exclusive historians, you will never know what really happened. I was helped by the following:

• W B Neatby's "History of the Plymouth Brethren." Excellent insider account, but scholarly and difficult in places, at least for me
• F. Roy Coad "A History of the Brethren Movement." Great history.
• H.A. Ironside "A Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement."
• Henry Groves "Darbyism: Its rise, Progress, and Development." His father was A. N. Groves whom I consider the real founder of the Brethren Movement

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Welcome to the forum!

Like many bro/sis, you left during the chaos of the late 80's. Most of us in the Great Lakes Area had not a clue as to what really happened, and were kept in the dark thinking it was some vast global conspiracy to take down the ministry of W. Lee. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Unfortunately for LSM, when they decided to quarantine us in 2005-2010, their past history was made available for all to see on the old "Bereans" forum, and now on this one. Before the internet came along, LSM used to hide their old sins under the cover of lies, but now all can see who they really are.

I too read much on the initial Brethren split in order to understand the underlying dynamics at work in both of the exclusive systems. Darby's actions against Newton and Muller exposed everything. If you read any of the Exclusive historians, you will never know what really happened. I was helped by the following:

• W B Neatby's "History of the Plymouth Brethren." Excellent insider account, but scholarly and difficult in places, at least for me
• F. Roy Coad "A History of the Brethren Movement." Great history.
• H.A. Ironside "A Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement."
• Henry Groves "Darbyism: Its rise, Progress, and Development." His father was A. N. Groves whom I consider the real founder of the Brethren Movement

Thank you for posting-I was personally so affected by just the situations in the last few decades but obviously, there's so much more to understanding the movement. I've got a few things added to my reading list now- thanks Ohio!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you for posting-I was personally so affected by just the situations in the last few decades but obviously, there's so much more to understanding the movement. I've got a few things added to my reading list now- thanks Ohio!

Back in 2002 GLA and Anaheim leaders met in AZ and agreed on the so-called Phoenix Accord. Perhaps it was posted here. It was really childish, promising things like "we will not use the podium to bad-mouth one another." It was never adhered to, and after I saw it, I realized that another quarantine/storm was brewing. The Lord then put in me the interest in understanding what happened to the Plymouth Brethren, our forebears. I read all I could, and those were the best.

The similarities were striking. Even some of the characters -- 160 years and 2 continents apart -- seemed identical. By knowing Darby, I could understand W. Lee, which I felt was difficult. There is no way to conclude, at least in my mind, that LSM leadership was all good or all bad, and that seemed to be the decision most were faced with. Roy Coad said it best with his simple summary, "with John Darby there is so much good, and so much more wrong." The same applied to W. Lee.

I post here because so many people got hurt in a movement, which would never would admit any wrong doing. How can they ever defend the character of Philip Lee who ran LSM, ruled over the co-workers, and became a defacto dictator? I'm not here to judge the Lord's servants, but when their actions damage God's children, then others cannot be silent. (Matt. 18.31)

[kumbaya]

"By knowing Darby, I could understand W. Lee, which I felt was difficult. There is no way to conclude, at least in my mind, that LSM leadership was all good or all bad, and that seemed to be the decision most were faced with. Roy Coad said it best with his simple summary, "with John Darby there is so much good, and so much more wrong." The same applied to W. Lee. "

I suspect, for really intelligent minds who genuinely love the Lord and want to serve him, the ability to influence and control behaviors due to being so gifted-actually becomes a curse to them. The need to control our environments is something we all have to face, learn to manage, and learn to balance. I can imagine WL being elated with the beginning growth of the churches but when problems start to happen, the need to control came in. Obviously, I don't know- it's just a speculation that would make sense, to me at least.

I really want to read those, thanks again for posting. I've said it a lot but the sociology of the movement is almost predictable and gives a good perspective on what mistakes are commonly made with Christian groups and many other groups.

I'm really interested to learn about Darby, I have only read good things about him. Is that because I was raised in the local church? Guess I'll have to read to find out! Crossing my fingers there is an audiobook for them too

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I post here because so many people got hurt in a movement, which would never would admit any wrong doing. How can they ever defend the character of Philip Lee who ran LSM, ruled over the co-workers, and became a defacto dictator? I'm not here to judge the Lord's servants, but when their actions damage God's children, then others cannot be silent. (Matt. 18.31)

So they never admitted and apologized publicly for Philip Lee's abuse? I almost can't believe it. I don't understand how you could even call yourself a Christian if you didn't repent to the saints, part of the body of Christ, for any support or power given wrongly to Philip Lee. I definitely don't want to throw out allegations that are hearsay but it's pretty obvious with him being excommunicated that there is some truth there. I heard one sister got pregnant due to this abuse. Like I said, I heard this from a child of another elder who was close to the situation and don't want to accuse without really knowing. I just think its important to say to convince people that these things that are being said have never been addressed with LSM. Do you really think an organization or business just CHANGES overnight with him being gone? He set up the business a certain way. I would be very interested to know where/how the money comes in/is spent/and what royalties are paid.

Does anyone know that??

Did the church in Anaheim say anything about it, ever??

I feel like I still subconsciously give them the benefit of the doubt with things and assume it was handled in the best way. That's typical church kid thinking for you! But really looking at this, I feel like to not acknowledge it publicly and apologize is such an abusive power move over the saints. People were hurt, sexually assaulted, and they pretended it didn't happen?

Even the Catholic Church admits their faults with abuse.

I don't want to have the wrong idea here so I want to make sure I'm understanding this. They really have never apologized to the saints on Philip Lee's behalf or acknowledged the abuse publicly? I just don't understand how they could do that and get away with it. It literally blows my mind.

Sorry- I'm not "quoting" your comment correctly Ohio, I'm not sure what I did there! oops

Also, I'm apologize for my "newbie" bad manners saying this on other peoples threads. I'm still figuring all this out

[Baruch]

Thank you Kumbaya, Ohio and others for your posts! I will definitely take a look at the books listed as resources on the history of the brethren. As a side note, there is a group of Plymouth Brethren in Queensland, Australia who have really taken the idea of "Exclusive" to an extreme level. They won't even eat with anyone else but other members of the group. They number about 40,000 and are very controversial in Australia.

I have a question about the "Shouters" in China. Did these house churches eventually grow out of the remnant of the Little Flock members who stayed in China after the communists took over? The government considers them a cult and there is conflicting evidence as to whether they are connected to the local churches (I assume the church in Taipei). Of course there are thousands of other house churches in mainland China in addition to the government sanctioned Christian churches. I read that there was a tremendous Christian revival in China after the cultural revolution and there are probably as many born again Christians in China as there are in the U.S.

[JJ]

Unfortunately, local church leadership views all requests for apologies, discussion of problems, and/or issues as “rebellion”, “opposition, “poison, etc. Instead they excommunicate, make pronouncements of “quarantine”, order shunning, and/or threaten and sometimes pursue lawsuits. So, nothing ever gets resolved. At least I haven’t seen any since 1978.

It’s sad, but it turns out that violating “Love one another” for the sake of loving “The Minister” and “The Ministry” is Standard Operating Procedure.... straight out of Darby’s playbook?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

So they never admitted and apologized publicly for Philip Lee's abuse? I almost can't believe it. I don't understand how you could even call yourself a Christian if you didn't repent to the saints, part of the body of Christ, for any support or power given wrongly to Philip Lee. I definitely don't want to throw out allegations that are hearsay but it's pretty obvious with him being excommunicated that there is some truth there. I heard one sister got pregnant due to this abuse. Like I said, I heard this from a child of another elder who was close to the situation and don't want to accuse without really knowing. I just think its important to say to convince people that these things that are being said have never been addressed with LSM. Do you really think an organization or business just CHANGES overnight with him being gone? He set up the business a certain way. I would be very interested to know where/how the money comes in/is spent/and what royalties are paid.

Does anyone know that??

Did the church in Anaheim say anything about it, ever??

I feel like I still subconsciously give them the benefit of the doubt with things and assume it was handled in the best way. That's typical church kid thinking for you! But really looking at this, I feel like to not acknowledge it publicly and apologize is such an abusive power move over the saints. People were hurt, sexually assaulted, and they pretended it didn't happen?

Even the Catholic Church admits their faults with abuse.

I never heard a sister got pregnant. What a shame. The Catholic Church only admitted sins when the spotlight was too bright to deny. LSM has never reached that point. Put them on "60 Minutes," and then they will repent.

Philip Lee was excommunicated by the elders in Anaheim. So W. Lee portrayed these elders as part of a vast global conspiracy to destroy his ministry. They were libeled and slandered. (Read John Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth in Love.) Meetings were held, books were written, and Ingalls and other godly men were all expelled or left voluntarily. After all the smoke settled, W. Lee had his new lackey elders restore Philip to good standing. What a sham!

Some questioned how Philip could even be excommunicated since he was probably unsaved and never even met with the church. But then how could WL place him in charge of a Christian publishing house, when his real role was to bring all the elders and co-workers around the world under subjection to him. (Read the horror stories of what Philip did to the German saints when John So refused to bow down to him.) Philip was a known predator like Harvey Swinestein with a trail of victims. There is no more reason to extend the "benefit of the doubt" to any LSM leader. They are all complicit.

[LifeGoesOn]

Awesome and amen! Welcome.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Baruch

I am happy to have found this website 3 or 4 days ago. I worshipped with the local churches in Texas and Colorado from 1975 to 1987.

Welcome. There are several posters on this site from Texas. I was in Houston in 1978, moved to Irving when the construction began and then moved to Odessa 18 months later after the Peter training.

OBW is from the DFW area and Igzy is from Austin.

[JJ]

Welcome, Baruch. I like the spirit of your posts. I say a big amen to your prayer.

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.