First Post kumbaya

I’ve requested a username just now but I guess this will be unregistered as of now. I requested kumbaya so assuming that goes through- that’s me!

I’m a former church kid, dad was an elder. I’ve left the church, came back after having a spiritual turn, but left again due to some personal circumstances. During that time I began to see MAJOR issues that I just couldn’t get passed. This led me here, and to talking with former members. I can confidently say that unless there are MAJOR changes- I wouldn’t return.

I have many issues, a lot of which I see on this site mentioned. Maybe I haven’t searched correctly for this topic but I haven’t seen posts about the fact that LSM is basically a business that runs the church now. Who owns LSM? Ron Kangus? (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

So he runs LSM and makes decisions as one of the “blending brothers” for the church.

RED FLAG?????

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”

I don’t care WHAT you’re selling, preaching, whatever. This is a TERRIBLE model to follow for a church. No wonder so much sin, corruption, and divisiveness has happened!!

All the churches and people that were quarantined for having their own publications were told there could only be “one trumpet” by the leading brothers in Anaheim, who conveniently, also control LSM.

This is infuriating. I really hope I’m wrong and if someone can refute it, please do.

What this is besides being a terrible abuse, is a multilevel direct sales model. They might as well have copied Herbalife’s business model and stamped “The local church” on it.

Disgusting in my opinion.

I mentioned this to a “saint” or woman I know in the local church and she said, “well, the structure is messy but as long as you’re getting fed. Kitchens get messy when you make the food but the purpose is to eat.”

Ok, fair enough. I didn’t think quickly enough to respond with this then but later I was thinking ..OK, sure- kitchens get messy when cooking just like the other appearances in the church life do. But, would you eat at a kitchen that was so messy that it caused food poisoning to hundreds of people? If you knew that a restatursnt had multiple health code violations but still, they made this really good cheeseburger....would you eat there? You might not get sick and it’s going to taste really good....

No, you probably wouldn’t eat there.

The local church has a horrible history and culture of spiritual abuse and overstepping boundaries. There has to be change or it doesn’t matter how good the “food” is, no one wants to eat in a poisonous kitchen.

Among many issues, I think the main one causing issues is having a publishing business so closely tied to the church. How much division and pain had this caused? Is it worth the money saved than to hire an outside publisher?

I don’t think so. It’s all very sad.

[Ohio]

Welcome to the forum Kumbaya!

Your numerous observations are correct. They are some of the ones that troubled us too, so we too left. I like your comment about Herbalife. I used to drink that stuff and it made me sick to my stomach. Just sayin'...

There is nothing "local" in the LC's any more than the local Catholic parish I grew up in. They are both run by a dominant headquarters, who move their "priests" around in order to maintain order. They control the printing presses, and constantly warn the faithful of those horrible "Protestants."

Things were much better back in the mid 70's when I first met them -- a little more local, much more Christ, a focus on the Bible, and the liberty of the Spirit. It seemed that every few years some "storm" would be used to tighten the noose in Anaheim. Like the rotten politicians love to say, "never let a good crisis go to waste."

As I left the LC during the Great Quarantines of the 00's, the buzz in my head was saying, "this program produces bullies out of beloved brothers." I saw it on every level. It was a systemic disease based on bad teachings and practices. Like our Lord warned His disciples, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." A little leaven goes a long way, someone once said.

You're right. Some of their "cheeseburgers" can make you sick.

[kumbaya]

I'm registered now

Any advice on dealing with your family being in the church? It dominates everything and I've just accepted feeling left out somewhat but I also don't know when to say/not say something.

It's one thing with the older generation but I have younger family members about to attend the training and they already seem "different"...like FTTA minions or something. The culture and influence on personality is REAL....I know first hand how alienating the FTT can make people.

The Mormans do the same thing, they take people at a young age and indoctrinate them. It would be different if they were JUST learning the Bible but they're not. They're learning to serve the Lord ONLY within certain limits. Limits set by the FTTA of course.

I went to a training a few years ago. Aside from the "testing", I enjoyed it. I didn't realize how many unhealthy practices were going on but anyone can enjoy the Lord, anywhere. He, unlike local church members, are not limited.

However, a few years later I went to a FFTA training. The situation was definitely different. I almost felt like it was an alien movie where Christian clones were taking over. They all said the SAME thing and looked EXACTLY alike.

HOW IS THIS BIBLICAL???

We are not meant to be identical clones in a suppressive culture. My younger sis has bought in hook, line, and sinker and honestly-has a hard time realizing she's not functioning well in the real world. In serving the church as a full-timer, yeah she's getting by... In the real world- she's not. She is not self aware at all and it breaks my heart to know that its not just me, she is annoying to a lot of people. I'm a big believer in self awareness and I believe the FTTA drives that out of people when the attend. Its just crazy to me how much of a bubble they put people in. It's seriously psychologically damaging.

Even if you believe EVERYTHING the FTT teaches, does it have to be in that environment?

How do you deal with family members who are so adamant that this is the best and only way to live?

Whether intentional or not, I wonder if some of the members (my family included) realize how condescending they come off to people who aren't in the church. The spiritual arrogance isn't any better than just plain old arrogance. It's SOOOO elitist and "above" everyone. But, they're Christian....

It doesn't make sense to me, at all. It probably never will. I just wish I could be in a room with my sister sometimes without resisting to roll my eyes or come back with an alternate view that would probably create an uncomfortable situation.

*sigh* love love love love will get us though

[least]

Kumbaya wrote: "You might not get sick and it’s going to taste really good...."

No, Kumbaya.

Taste really OFF. Get sick with 'ill conscience'.
-
edited: conscious to conscience. Thank you Indiana.

Originally Posted by least

Kumbaya wrote: "You might not get sick and it’s going to taste really good...."

No, Kumbaya.

Taste really OFF. Get sick with 'ill conscience'.
-
edited: conscious to conscience. Thank you Indiana.

Right, the problem is- it’s not ALL bad and there are genuine believers there. It’s why I always was confused by their quote/motto, “Christ plus nothing.”

Only Christ is Christ plus nothing, right?

So when LSM has requirements on the local churches (who according to Witness Lee should be autonomous....how is that, “Christ plus nothing??”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I'm registered now

Any advice on dealing with your family being in the church? It dominates everything and I've just accepted feeling left out somewhat but I also don't know when to say/not say something.

It doesn't make sense to me, at all. It probably never will. I just wish I could be in a room with my sister sometimes without resisting to roll my eyes or come back with an alternate view that would probably create an uncomfortable situation.

*sigh* love love love love will get us though

kumbaya, you are in a difficult situation with your family. Sometimes you can only watch and pray ... listening to them in silence with love and compassion. There will come a time when your family will put their guard down, and begin to question things in their own heart.

Meanwhile equip yourself. Though it's difficult to navigate this forum at times, there are many rebuttals to LC teachings here. Sometimes the right verse can help, sometimes a little dose of common sense. These can challenge your family in a loving way. Prepare loving answers for them when the Lord provides opportunity. Most LCers have no idea how much LSM reeks with hypocrisy and unrighteousness.

Young people think the FTTA will cure all their issues as a Christian. They have been convinced of this from their childhood. It takes time to break them of this spell. So many have returned from the FTTA and could not return to normal life. They were filled with arrogant judgmentalism. It took a while for that garbage to go thru their system.

Originally Posted by Ohio

kumbaya, you are in a difficult situation with your family. Sometimes you can only watch and pray ... listening to them in silence with love and compassion. There will come a time when your family will put their guard down, and begin to question things in their own heart.

Meanwhile equip yourself. Though it's difficult to navigate this forum at times, there are many rebuttals to LC teachings here. Sometimes the right verse can help, sometimes a little dose of common sense. These can challenge your family in a loving way. Prepare loving answers for them when the Lord provides opportunity. Most LCers have no idea how much LSM reeks with hypocrisy and unrighteousness.

Young people think the FTTA will cure all their issues as a Christian. They have been convinced of this from their childhood. It takes time to break them of this spell. So many have returned from the FTTA and could not return to normal life. They were filled with arrogant judgmentalism. It took a while for that garbage to go thru their system.

Thank you, I’ve been reading it for months and only tapped the surface! I plan on remaining for a while to learn/heal though! Appreciate your insight on it. Do you have family still in the church? It’s good advice- I just don’t know how I’m going to navigate this honestly.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thank you, I’ve been reading it for months and only tapped the surface! I plan on remaining for a while to learn/heal though! Appreciate your insight on it. Do you have family still in the church? It’s good advice- I just don’t know how I’m going to navigate this honestly.

I wasn't signed in while responding earlier. (newbie mistake)

That was all me below...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

We are not meant to be identical clones in a suppressive culture. My younger sis has bought in hook, line, and sinker and honestly-has a hard time realizing she's not functioning well in the real world.
...Even if you believe EVERYTHING the FTT teaches, does it have to be in that environment?

kumbaya,
Welcome, thanks for taking the time to register and make these very good opening posts!

This is a very keen observation on your part. God, from the beginning, has shown himself to be a wonderful Creator and purveyor of diversity. Just take a look at his creation - tall mountains, deep valleys, trees and plants of every imaginable shape, color and size. Flowers of innumerable colors and shapes. Mysterious tiny creatures that cannot be seen with the naked eye, all the way to ginormous animals who walk the earth and swim in the seas.

So when we come to the masterpiece of his creation - Man - why would God be any less of a wonderful Creator and purveyor of diversity? Of course the answer to this question is on display right before us throughout human history. If you think about it, it is man himself who seems to want to force conformity and uniformity. And this is one of the dangers and tragedies of false religion - the forcing and enforcing of conformity to a man-made structure apart from, and even antithetical to, God's original intention.

So now we come to the Local Church of Witness Lee. As kumbaya has pointed out, the group has become a "suppressive culture" where diversity has been replaced by the most strict and wooden religious conformity. Tolerance, mercy, grace and freedom are replaced with uniformity and conformity. Basically, everything the LC movement was supposed to be "recovering" has been thrown out the door, and instead of progressing forward it seems the group has receded back to the dark ages. May God have mercy.
-

[Drake]

Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

No more interesting yet odd then for someone to claim that they came to Local Church meetings for more than one year before "hearing the name Witness Lee".
-

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No more interesting yet odd then for someone to claim that they came to Local Church meetings for more than one year before "hearing the name Witness Lee".
-

Yes, that would be a hard thing to believe. Maybe a home meeting without a bookshelf display! But one year?? Sorry- that’s almost unbelievable. He was the “modern day prophet” who uncovered the last riches of the Bible.

Well, that’s what I was always told anyways!

Sorry for the sarcasm- can’t help it!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake

Drake has far more experience than I do with the local churches...

Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake has far more experience than I do with the local churches...

Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?

Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake

Hey! Well- I’m female actually

My dad passed away as an elder when I was still an older teenager and I had stopped attending the meetings. I didn’t know the inner workings/requirements then with Anaheim and from what I’ve heard- things have changed a lot in the last 10-15 years. My dad passed away in 2003...

Drake, Are you still in the church and you know this isn’t the case? Sorry- not understanding what you’re saying...

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey! Well- I’m female actually

My dad passed away as an elder when I was still an older teenager and I had stopped attending the meetings. I didn’t know the inner workings/requirements then with Anaheim and from what I’ve heard- things have changed a lot in the last 10-15 years. My dad passed away in 2003...

Drake, Are you still in the church and you know this isn’t the case? Sorry- not understanding what you’re saying...

Hi. Thanks for the clarification. Your question is understandable under the circumstances. Sorry about your father’s passing.

Yes, I am still in the church after 4 decades.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake

It kind of seems like you’re passive aggressively dismissing me...is that intentional? You don’t know me and I’m sure there’s a lot of “interesting” people on here but take it as you will- I grew up very much involved with every aspect of the local church life and not only know about it but have many relationships (good and strained ones) with family and friends that still participate.

I’m on this forum only bc I care....

Originally Posted by UntoHim

kumbaya,
Welcome, thanks for taking the time to register and make these very good opening posts!

This is a very keen observation on your part. God, from the beginning, has shown himself to be a wonderful Creator and purveyor of diversity. Just take a look at his creation - tall mountains, deep valleys, trees and plants of every imaginable shape, color and size. Flowers of innumerable colors and shapes. Mysterious tiny creatures that cannot be seen with the naked eye, all the way to ginormous animals who walk the earth and swim in the seas.

Wonderful perspective- thank you!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Disgusting in my opinion.

I mentioned this to a “saint” or woman I know in the local church and she said, “well, the structure is messy but as long as you’re getting fed. Kitchens get messy when you make the food but the purpose is to eat.”

This forum does not exist because the LC's were a little "messy." I have been around diverse churches all my life, and they all are a little "messy." Humans are messy, as are families and kids. Pets too. Life is messy. We all know this, and for the most part, accept it.

But Witness Lee used expressions like these to coverup serious issues at LSM. "Nobody's perfect" and "everybody makes mistakes" are a couple more. Actually 99.9% of the discussions here are NOT about the "messy" kitchen in all of the LC's. In fact, most of the comments about the saints, elders, and LC's are all positive.

The blight in the Recovery is in Anaheim at LSM -- Lee's long history of unrighteousness and hurting people. You made the following observation --

I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I still have trouble putting the two behaviors together.

I too felt the same way. As I was leaving, there was this constant nagging in my head, "how could something so good become so bad?"

The Lord showed me one verse that helped. The Apostle Paul was fellowshiping with brothers for the last time, and was pouring out his heart to them (Acts 20) At one point he warned them and prophesied for the future church, "that from among you men (like Witness Lee) will rise up speaking perverted things to lure the disciples after themselves."

This is exactly what happened to us. Many of us watched it happen. I watched from a distance, and was constantly reassured that "everything was fine." Some went along with it, but others disagreed. Those who protested were "shamed, cursed, and kicked out," just like you said.

All the things you read here like only buying LSM books, all young people going to FTTA, Luther and Lee are MOTA's, poor poor Christianity, local ground of oneness, etc. etc. are all "perverted" teachings to draw us from Christ to Witness Lee.

[BlueOrchid]

Hey
Just read your opening post, Kumbaya. Wanted to say yea it's off that the church hierarchy is just like that of an MLM. a triangle.
Where in the Bible, the leaders would lift the people up so they could be closer to God. No ego. No position of lording over the people... No wonder followers of Jesus flipped the world upside down, cause it was the entire worldly modal flipped upside down!
No wonder they were known for their love!! Cause ego and money were not running the show. It was truly different.

Jesus is not of this world, and the way following Jesus works is not the way of the world, either.

By the way love love love your analogy of the dirty kitchen!!
I read that a few days ago and got a good chuckle.
That whole messy kitchen/spit out the bone and eat the meat analogy has been said so many times!!

But we don't want to eat food prepared in a kitchen with cockroaches and flies. And for the chicken, free range organic and local, not poopy sickly, gmo factory farm chicken, please. haha. :P

~Blue Orchid

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

Hey
Just read your opening post, Kumbaya. Wanted to say yea it's off that the church hierarchy is just like that of an MLM. a triangle.
Where in the Bible, the leaders would lift the people up so they could be closer to God. No ego. No position of lording over the people... No wonder followers of Jesus flipped the world upside down, cause it was the entire worldly modal flipped upside down!
No wonder they were known for their love!! Cause ego and money were not running the show. It was truly different.

Jesus is not of this world, and the way following Jesus works is not the way of the world, either.

By the way love love love your analogy of the dirty kitchen!!
I read that a few days ago and got a good chuckle.
That whole messy kitchen/spit out the bone and eat the meat analogy has been said so many times!!

But we don't want to eat food prepared in a kitchen with cockroaches and flies. And for the chicken, free range organic and local, not poopy sickly, gmo factory farm chicken, please. haha. :P

~Blue Orchid

Yes! I’m actually GLAD that sister told me that bc I would have NEVER considered that without her trying to “help me.” I know she thought she was and I really like her a lot but at the end of the day-there’s a reason why there are health inspectors for restaurants and apologetics and teachings on best practices to lead others spiritually. I really believe you have to get the practices to a good place if you want good “food.” your post is so encouraging and full of life- I needed it, thank you! I was feeling a little down earlier but Jesus is Lord and I agree with your post on saying His name more. You’re right, I don’t know if it’s just the culture or what but we all need to say Jesus more!!)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have many issues, a lot of which I see on this site mentioned. Maybe I haven’t searched correctly for this topic but I haven’t seen posts about the fact that LSM is basically a business that runs the church now. Who owns LSM? Ron Kangus? (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

So he runs LSM and makes decisions as one of the “blending brothers” for the church.

RED FLAG?????

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”

I don’t care WHAT you’re selling, preaching, whatever. This is a TERRIBLE model to follow for a church. No wonder so much sin, corruption, and divisiveness has happened!!

All the churches and people that were quarantined for having their own publications were told there could only be “one trumpet” by the leading brothers in Anaheim, who conveniently, also control LSM.

This is infuriating. I really hope I’m wrong and if someone can refute it, please do.

What this is besides being a terrible abuse, is a multilevel direct sales model. They might as well have copied Herbalife’s business model and stamped “The local church” on it.

Disgusting in my opinion.

I mentioned this to a “saint” or woman I know in the local church and she said, “well, the structure is messy but as long as you’re getting fed. Kitchens get messy when you make the food but the purpose is to eat.”

The people who run the ministry also run the book publishing company which distributes the ministry materials. The ministry mandates that the local churches only use ministry materials, which are conveniently supplied by the publishing house. A bit of a conflict of interest, yes.

Second, vis-à-vis the "messy kitchen" quote. I heard that phrase also. "Forgive us our messy kitchen, but we're cooking food for people to eat." Yet these same people delight in pointing out everyone else's messy kitchen, calling it "satanic" and "devilish" and so forth. Why the double standard? Subjective, much?

And when they point out errors, it is a "correction", right? Like "Affirmation and Critique" magazine. But if you point out their errors, it is no longer "critique" but an "attack" or a "slander" or "rebellion". Again, hypersubjectivity rules the day.

I looked up "Witness Lee messy kitchen" and found the following essay, by a brother who made it through the LSM/lc system and is now doing Christian ministry apart from their control. He makes some interesting comments.

http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-...chapter-15.htm

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

The people who run the ministry also run the book publishing company which distributes the ministry materials. The ministry mandates that the local churches only use ministry materials, which are conveniently supplied by the publishing house. A bit of a conflict of interest, yes.

Second, vis-à-vis the "messy kitchen" quote. I heard that phrase also. "Forgive us our messy kitchen, but we're cooking food for people to eat." Yet these same people delight in pointing out everyone else's messy kitchen, calling it "satanic" and "devilish" and so forth. Why the double standard? Subjective, much?

And when they point out errors, it is a "correction", right? Like "Affirmation and Critique" magazine. But if you point out their errors, it is no longer "critique" but an "attack" or a "slander" or "rebellion". Again, hypersubjectivity rules the day.

I looked up "Witness Lee messy kitchen" and found the following essay, by a brother who made it through the LSM/lc system and is now doing Christian ministry apart from their control. He makes some interesting comments.

http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-...chapter-15.htm

It takes reading it like that to see it, it is hypocrisy. Thanks for posting the link, will read....

I know I've seen and think I've read at least part of the book, "Spiritual Authority" by WL. It would have been so long ago but it comes to mind now. We had to mind-numbingly read outloud, in a circle, many ministry books in the YP meeting's and truth schools back then and they all sort of blur together for me. I admit, I wasn't always paying attention!

It's not a top priority of mine but I would be curious to see how (if at all ) they defend these practices in that book. Has anyone read it and does it (try to) justify the practices that are hypocritical to being held accountable?

I've read their defense of the one publishing arm AKA "one trumpet" and defense of quarantining on their "afaithfulword" site.

The STRETCH that they use in those verses (which there are maybe 3, possibly 4!) of how they justify their practices compared to ministry quotes was unbelievable. The ministry should NOT be used to determine local church practices, right? I would think even the saints would agree to that. But, they are getting away with it. Crazy!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

It takes reading it like that to see it, it is hypocrisy. Thanks for posting the link, will read....

I know I've seen and think I've read at least part of the book, "Spiritual Authority" by WL. It would have been so long ago but it comes to mind now. We had to mind-numbingly read outloud, in a circle, many ministry books in the YP meeting's and truth schools back then and they all sort of blur together for me. I admit, I wasn't always paying attention!

It's not a top priority of mine but I would be curious to see how (if at all ) they defend these practices in that book. Has anyone read it and does it (try to) justify the practices that are hypocritical to being held accountable?

Nee and Lee both used Moses as their basis for "Spiritual Authority," alleging that Moses could be a type of N.T. Ministers. That reasoning is seriously flawed. The Bible tells us that Moses is uniquely a type of Christ.

See Deuteronomy 18.15-18 Moses prophecy concerning Christ.

Hebrews Chapter 3. Moses and his ministry was a strong type of Christ and His ministry.

There is no indication in scripture that Moses was ever a type of the apostles or ministers in the N.T.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nee and Lee both used Moses as their basis for "Spiritual Authority," alleging that Moses could be a type of N.T. Ministers. That reasoning is seriously flawed. The Bible tells us that Moses is uniquely a type of Christ.

See Deuteronomy 18.15-18 Moses prophecy concerning Christ.

Hebrews Chapter 3. Moses and his ministry was a strong type of Christ and His ministry.

There is no indication in scripture that Moses was ever a type of the apostles or ministers in the N.T.

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you...I still wonder how other churches allow for accountability though and why the local churches don't ask for this given that this model doesn't work and encourages abuse. I know there are verses that talk about accountability with believers. I've read them and believe that as brothers and sisters, the Bible says we are to be accountable to each other. I need to look some up but all the verses about companionship and how to approach each other about offenses are all covering the subject of accountability, right?

I guess what I'm asking is, where does that accountability end as far as being an elder? Obviously, I don't believe it should but surely they can't just say that an elder isn't held accountable because he's a type of Moses and a N.T. minister. I'm not trying to put you on the spot and I know it's not an easy question (I could read the ministry to find out- ha!) but I want to make sure that's what you're saying they believe. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very knowledgable about the ministry so I thought you'd know!

Even if they were right, how do they support that there's no accountability between the NT minister type of Moses, AKA elder, AKA a physical man capable of sin, and the saints?

I'm sorry, I'm asking hard questions. I'm thinking the answer is - they can't. I'm just curious at how they may try to defend it- I don't see how they can.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you...I still wonder how other churches allow for accountability though and why the local churches don't ask for this given that this model doesn't work and encourages abuse. I know there are verses that talk about accountability with believers. I've read them and believe that as brothers and sisters, the Bible says we are to be accountable to each other. I need to look some up but all the verses about companionship and how to approach each other about offenses are all covering the subject of accountability, right?

I guess what I'm asking is, where does that accountability end as far as being an elder? Obviously, I don't believe it should but surely they can't just say that an elder isn't held accountable because he's a type of Moses and a N.T. minister. I'm not trying to put you on the spot and I know it's not an easy question (I could read the ministry to find out- ha!) but I want to make sure that's what you're saying they believe. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very knowledgable about the ministry so I thought you'd know!

Even if they were right, how do they support that there's no accountability between the NT minister type of Moses, AKA elder, AKA a physical man capable of sin, and the saints?

I'm sorry, I'm asking hard questions. I'm thinking the answer is - they can't. I'm just curious at how they may try to defend it- I don't see how they can.

Despite arguments to the contrary, the LC program is quite hierarchical. Everyone is accountable, except for the guy on top, which explains the power struggles by successors to be the guy on "top."

Moses was wrongly used as a type of NT leader because he was accountable only to God. If you talk back to him, you will get leprosy, like his sister Meriam. Pretty powerful deterrent to keep silent, eh? Thus, all who speak their conscience about Lee's business failings or his sons' wicked ways were immediately branded a rebellious "leper," and were cursed. This is the incentive Lee had to maintain his status as MOTA. No other elder or worker enjoyed this privilege!

Then, in order to prevent a gifted successor like TItus Chu, Lee had to change the rules and declare that the age of MOTA's was now over. Very convenient!

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-...chapter-15.htm

This guy nailed it- at least with the LSM churches, from my experience. Wow, bravo. I'm sure this has helped and will continue to help people see behind the "facade." Thanks so much for posting that- I would definitely encourage anyone seeing to read and share!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

This guy nailed it- at least with the LSM churches, from my experience. Wow, bravo. I'm sure this has helped and will continue to help people see behind the "facade." Thanks so much for posting that- I would definitely encourage anyone seeing to read and share!

John Myer was an elder and full-timer for years in the Ohio area.

I have always considered him one of the most "listenable" ministers I knew.

His entire book is worth your reading.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”

What you've just identified is not a local church, but a ministry church. Sure they like to call and think of themselves as local churches, but in practice they're ministry churches.
When it comes to gaining "new ones", it's just not any "new ones", but ones who have a vision for the ministry. If one doesn't have the vision, they're deemed not worth the investment of time.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

What you've just identified is not a local church, but a ministry church. Sure they like to call and think of themselves as local churches, but in practice they're ministry churches.
When it comes to gaining "new ones", it's just not any "new ones", but ones who have a vision for the ministry. If one doesn't have the vision, they're deemed not worth the investment of time.

Sorry, but true!
An “inconvenient truth”.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Terry

What you've just identified is not a local church, but a ministry church. Sure they like to call and think of themselves as local churches, but in practice they're ministry churches.
When it comes to gaining "new ones", it's just not any "new ones", but ones who have a vision for the ministry. If one doesn't have the vision, they're deemed not worth the investment of time.

I completely agree. The FTT should be called a MINISTRY school where you also learn the Bible. I'm just curious, I wonder if you can attend the training without full heartedly saying that you agree that WL is the minister of the age and that the LC is "recovering" the church...

Of course, I don't know why you'd WANT to attend if you believe that.

But I just wonder if you could attend as just a random person who believed it was a place where you could learn the Bible. I obviously have some major concerns about the training, but besides being a Christian- I just want to know how indoctrinated you have to be to be accepted.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I completely agree. The FTT should be called a MINISTRY school where you also learn the Bible. I'm just curious, I wonder if you can attend the training without full heartedly saying that you agree that WL is the minister of the age and that the LC is "recovering" the church...

Of course, I don't know why you'd WANT to attend if you believe that.

But I just wonder if you could attend as just a random person who believed it was a place where you could learn the Bible. I obviously have some major concerns about the training, but besides being a Christian- I just want to know how indoctrinated you have to be to be accepted.

You can "attend" the online FFT and take courses, but you will get a watered down version.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by HERn

You can "attend" the online FFT and take courses, but you will get a watered down version.

If I had the time- I’d want to to look into those requirements. Does anyone know though, what you have to “believe” to attend the actual FTT?

I just wonder if you have to blindly accept every interpretation of the Bible from WL as truth.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

If I had the time- I’d want to to look into those requirements. Does anyone know though, what you have to “believe” to attend the actual FTT?

I just wonder if you have to blindly accept every interpretation of the Bible from WL as truth.

I think the only requirement to take online FTT courses is to have a valid credit card number and an email address.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

You can "attend" the online FFT and take courses, but you will get a watered down version.

An online FTT? LOL. What? Do they think they're an accredited university? Fanatics will fall for anything.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

An online FTT? LOL. What? Do they think they're an accredited university? Fanatics will fall for anything.

Not accredited. I just wanted to be a better and more absolute brother and impress the elders with my commitment. I kept it secret because you're not supposed to put yourself forward. When I did mention it in passing one elder looked at another and asked if he approved this. They shook their heads no. None asked about the courses. Since the online FTT does not require elder permission or recommendation I think it should be obvious that it's not the "real deal" like those in the face-to-face training receive. Nothing about the Lord's Recovery being the move of God on the earth (at leasst from the three courses I took). WL was not promoted as the Minister of the Age, but all of the materials were by him and published via LSM. Probably most evangelicals would be comfortable with what was presented. They made a strong point that although all scripture is inspired by God, not all scripture is God's word. Apologies to Kumbaya for skewing his thread onto a tangent!

[ACuriousFellow]

The preeminence of Lee’s writings and, subsequently, the current owner and publisher of his writings (Living Stream Ministry) is certainly one of the most concerning aspects of The Lord’s Recovery that I have taken note of. As far as I’ve experienced myself and seen in the testimonies of prominent figures like John Ingalls and Steve Isitt (and the multitude of saints of no particular prominence), there is simply no room or leeway for questioning Lee’s teachings, revising mistakes in doctrine/delivery, or pointing out discrepancies between his works and the scriptures. It was disheartening to see that these weren’t simply the actions of a few overzealous saints, but the overall attitude of the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery, all the way up to Witness Lee himself.

At the end of the summer training in 1995, we celebrated the completion of the life-study of the Bible through Brother Lee’s speaking and the burden of the interpreted word, not merely the written Word. The word that we need to keep is not only the written Word that we study, read, and pray-read but also the proper interpretation of the Word. We boldly declare that this interpretation is to be found in the footnotes and the outlines of the Recovery Version and the Life-study messages. If we do not pay proper attention to the interpreted Word as the opener of the written Word, we will lose everything eventually.

(The Ministry of the Word, Vol. 16, No. 12, page 97, December 2012. The Overcomers. Published by Living Stream Ministry)

Lee’s writings were put on the same level of scriptures, being seen as the one true and proper interpretation of the scriptures, so naturally they adopted an attitude which saw any questioning of Lee’s words as a questioning of the truth of the scriptures. To take issue with the ministry of Lee and The Lord’s Recovery is to take issue with the Lord himself. I have found that many members of this denomination are unable to divorce Lee’s writings from the truth of the scriptures, seeing them as one and the same, which would perfectly explain their extreme apprehension in engaging in such conversations that could potentially point out either minor or major errors in this “Ministry of the Age.” Just as well, Lee seemed to have taken issue with those who would publish their own works, even if such works were inspired by what he taught them. There was simply no room for such things as Lee himself had covered nearly every bit of “life” and “light” there was to reveal or prepare from the scriptures.

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation, there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication. I was burdened to publish the Life-study messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today’s Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much life.

(Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life Pulse of The Lord’s Present Move, from The Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 1, Chapter 11, pp. 307-308, section 2 on ministrybooks.org, Published by Living Stream Ministry)

Such lofty ideas of one’s own self and teachings is disheartening to say the least, but it also gave an apt explanation as to why I saw what I saw within The Local Churches (a.k.a. “The Lord’s Recovery”).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

The preeminence of Lee’s writings and, subsequently, the current owner and publisher of his writings (Living Stream Ministry) is certainly one of the most concerning aspects of The Lord’s Recovery that I have taken note of. As far as I’ve experienced myself and seen in the testimonies of prominent figures like John Ingalls and Steve Isitt (and the multitude of saints of no particular prominence), there is simply no room or leeway for questioning Lee’s teachings, revising mistakes in doctrine/delivery, or pointing out discrepancies between his works and the scriptures. It was disheartening to see that these weren’t simply the actions of a few overzealous saints, but the overall attitude of the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery, all the way up to Witness Lee himself.

The question mark is a serpent,

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

The preeminence of Lee’s writings and, subsequently, the current owner and publisher of his writings (Living Stream Ministry) Just as well, Lee seemed to have taken issue with those who would publish their own works, even if such works were inspired by what he taught them. There was simply no room for such things as Lee himself had covered nearly every bit of “life” and “light” there was to reveal or prepare from the scriptures

While I'm not disagreeing that he and the blended bros had this attitude. I have heard and I think read him saying that if someone takes his ideas that he wishes they would at least give him credit. But that's all I've loosely heard about that. I don't recall ever reading him saying that no one could lift his ideas or take from his ministry. But I'm also not saying he never held that attitude either. I don't know for sure

I do know that LSM takes issue with their works being recreated in a legal sense I think. They have copyrights and claim that people can't just reproduce or use their material without their consent. But maybe that's normal for LLC businesses?

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

While I'm not disagreeing that he and the blended bros had this attitude. I have heard and I think read him saying that if someone takes his ideas that he wishes they would at least give him credit. But that's all I've loosely heard about that. I don't recall ever reading him saying that no one could lift his ideas or take from his ministry. But I'm also not saying he never held that attitude either. I don't know for sure

I do know that LSM takes issue with their works being recreated in a legal sense I think. They have copyrights and claim that people can't just reproduce or use their material without their consent. But maybe that's normal for LLC businesses?

Devil's advocate, huh? I can respect that.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Devil's advocate, huh? I can respect that.

I just like to be fair. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that I didn't hear about, witness, or was privy to in my time growing up in the LC. I know what I have read and heard since goin to the world in my early teens and then later on coming back into the recovery in a serious way in my twenties. That was twenty years ago and I voraciously started reading Nee and Lee in my personal spiritual pursuit and walk. There are things over the years that have seemed odd and some things I read and didn't think anything of at the time, but now that I'm older and have more perspective and hear others speaking from different angles, I'm able to see differently

Plenty of covering up from the blending brothers, when at the time I just figured they were trying to protect us from dissent and rebellion. But now that I look back on it after hearing a lot of testimonies from former members it kind of makes sense why they would say things like "never listen to the rebels. don't read what they write." Which is pretty damning when you realize the serious allegations they are trying to cover up

I was nervous about reading this and I admit, I wrote too much to read this morning. I’ve just skimmed my comments and fully read others. Still, it’s been interesting to see my thought process 6-7 years ago. This was all so fresh and understandably traumatic at the time. I had just realized the Lords Recovery met too many of the requirements of being a destructive cult. I was fascinated with learning cult psychology and using the BITE model to examine my experiences. I’ve grown so much but I still have love for this earnest hurting woman I was when I basically journaled my every thought on here. Thank you for the community. Looking back, I can see how important this was to my healing. Just to be validated after decades of gas-lighting is so affirming. If you’re newly out, be gentle on yourself. It takes time and tears- as my favorite therapist Diane Langberg has said.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I was nervous about reading this and I admit, I wrote too much to read this morning. I’ve just skimmed my comments and fully read others. Still, it’s been interesting to see my thought process 6-7 years ago. This was all so fresh and understandably traumatic at the time.

kumbaya, thank you for having the courage to look at yourself. You have given courage to many. ~aron

[kumbaya]

I’m here to share what I’ve been through bc I know I’m not the only one. We were absolutely spiritually abused and told it was for our own good. It wasn’t ok then and it’s not ok that they’re still doing it. I’m old enough to see the pain and consequences of unhealthy practices doled out on us. High control groups are bad. High control groups that influence children’s development are dangerous and deadly. I know they can’t see it but we know what’s healthy and unhealthy. We were indoctrinated into fear, silence, and blind submission. I have to say it’s wrong for the sake of my own conscience.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I know they can’t see it but we know what’s healthy and unhealthy. We were indoctrinated into fear, silence, and blind submission. I have to say it’s wrong for the sake of my own conscience.

It's an intimidating environment, where you listen to so many get condemned for not being with the program. I heard some pretty harsh things said from the podium both by WL and blended minions. Everyone looked straight ahead & said nothing. Nobody protested - "Hey, this is not right." Just a few soft murmured, "Oh, Lord Jesus". Then, silence.

But at some point your conscience says, "Speak up." So you write something, not to win an argument, not to look good, or convince someone of a perspective or truth. But conscience demands that someone speak up.

(When I say, 'you', I like to write in the third person, which may or may not be relevant to others)