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10-18-2017, 10:03 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 14
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Smoking Gun?
Hello everyone- I hope we are all walking close to Christ today- knowing Him and making Him known- what an adventure and honor! I'm really not sure if this is the best spot for this post- please forgive me if it isn't. I already gave a rather un-brief intro of myself, so I will try not to repeat much of it here. But I would like some responses concerning specifics from your experience in the LC. In essence I guess I’m looking for a possible “smoking gun”.
I’ve spent some time reading what various people claim about the LC- mostly from ex-LCers and "cult specialists". I’ve read about things such as authoritarianism, false teaching, didn’t help save someone’s marriage, RV companies, numerous lawsuits, power struggles, "brainwashing", WL’s reprobate kids, numerous allegations concerning LSM- the list could go on and on it seems... And as is usually the case- there are numerous claims and counter claims. As I wasn’t present when any of this happened I essentially have to take someone’s word for it, “ask, seek, and knock”- and pray the Holy Spirit will give me wisdom. I really don’t want to invest my time in a group that is off concerning some of the basic doctrines/practices of the faith- and when there’s this much "smoke", there tends to be a fire somewhere… With this in mind, I'm wondering if some of you ex-LCers might share your biggest complaint/grudge/issue/false-teaching/heresy/etc… you personally found in relation to the LC. If you could only pick one- what would it be? That would really help me know some things to look for. And it appears there are some current LCers around here as well? I would appreciate it if you would maybe share the main reason you choose to stay in the LC given this (apparently) lengthy list of “smoking guns”. It certainly at least appears there are myriad reasons to have some serious questions concerning the LC. A very big thx again for your responses! Please know this means a lot to my wife and I as we try to dig through the details of a complicated group and see what’s really at the bottom of it all- I sincerely hope it’s the one true God and His word, but…? |
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10-18-2017, 10:14 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 524
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Re: Smoking Gun?
For me it would be this: in the LC, you will be taught that there is little to no profit in reading any Christian material besides that published by LSM. Members are actively discouraged from doing so, and other members will not receive it if you share anything that originates from other material.
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10-18-2017, 10:40 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
Back in the late 1980's, numerous events occurred including a serious upheaval in the LC's, which was afterwards characterized by Lee as a conspiratorial rebellion, a literal coup d'taut. Supposedly leaders from Anaheim and around the globe conspired together to overthrow Lee's ministry. We all believed this account for many years. Then I came across an online book called Speaking The Truth in Love, written by a well-respected and spiritual brother named John Ingalls, who was one of the original founders of the LC movement in the US. John had helped translate the first recovery version, and he also helped compile the hymnal. This brother had a heart as pure as the driven snow. We all loved him. He just recently passed away. His account explained so many unanswered questions and rumors surrounding those years of turmoil. Witness Lee had placed his reprobate son Philip in charge of his ministry in Anaheim, while he was in Taiwan. The man was abusive, by all accounts unsaved, hot tempered, and molested the female staff. More than once he was caught with women on the ministry property. This was a pattern with a long hidden history dating back to China. John Ingalls documented his numerous attempts to get Witness Lee to remove his profligate son and to protect the saints. Read his account. The mounting concerns from like-minded men of God around the globe was never a "rebellion" but a response to bullying, abuse, and fleshly activity by the new "Office Manager" Philip Lee, changing the very nature of the ministry. Instead of taking action to protect the saints, Witness Lee rounded up all of his most zealous followers to attack these "whistleblowers," whose only crime was to speak their conscience on behalf of God, righteousness, and His children. Meetings were held, lies were spoken, books were written, it was all pretty ugly. Many leaders were excommunicated and branded rebels, lepers, and worse. The smoke from this gun can be described as the "poison" which LSM fears most. I hope my brief description of events helped to explain some of what caused me to walk away after 30 years actively serving in the LC's.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-18-2017, 12:26 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,376
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Re: Smoking Gun?
For me, it was the 'brainwashing' there was nothing out there in 'Christianity'. We were not 'allowed' (more like an unspoken rule) to read anything outside the LSM/LC.. that includes different translations of the bible, unless it was in the bookstore like Foxe's book of martyrs and Miller's church history.
I have heard the blended brothers sometimes NOW refer to the Amplified bible. If that's the case, then the brethren can follow the bouncing ball and do the same. There are some localities that have more 'freedom' than others I understand. And in each locality there will be some 'rebels'. Some localities have genuine close fellowship and understand each other well. Some localities were/are more rigid. That said, I can tell you that Nee and Lee's teachings did in the lonnnnnng run make me realize through the scriptures and the HOLY SPIRIT, that the 'church' is not a denomination. It is true there were no denominations or 'non denominations' when the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles and the disciples and the church was birthed in Acts. They got that part right. And yet, they became one themselves! Go figure! Now many people here have been attending a denomination for a long time and are happy there. I have no qualms with their decisions. If that's where the Lord has them, so be it. My experience was I attended several denominations: Messianic Jew, Baptist, John Hagee's cornerstone 'church' and another 'charismatic' church. I learned much from the pastors of these churches but I never had the close fellowship I had in the LC when I was there. Little by little, I met like minded people and even if we are not always on the same page it's OK! We are not going to 'quarantine' or excommunicate each other! Our allegiance and fellowship first and foremost is with our Creator and Savior, Jesus, His Holy Spirit and Father God. The LC was the foundation of my faith and growing in Christ. But my season there ended..as did my season with the denominations. It has not been an easy trek. Yet no doubt GOD IS FAITHFUL. He is our Shepherd. He leads us to still waters and His Goodness and Mercy follows us all the days of our lives. Glory and Praise to His Holy Name. 
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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10-18-2017, 02:04 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
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Re: Smoking Gun?
I left on good terms, and occasionally visited. My own gripe was twofold: first that they said to ignore the people Jesus ministered to - the poor, the sick, the weak and the weary - and went for the "good building material", i.e. naive college students, who would get good jobs and buy ministry publications and recruit others to buy ministry publications.
Second was that we were "the Body" and "just Christians" but seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time pooh-poohing everyone else in "the Body" but us. We were "the church in Smithville" but wouldn't visit anyone else in Smithville but required that they sat at our Lord's Table. The hypocrisy of it became too much, and I tired of sitting in the same chairs looking at the same faces saying the same things. So I left. But only later I learned of Philip Lee and the "storms" and "turmoils" and "rebellions" that Ohio alluded to. Never even heard of John Ingalls, except that his name was in the front of some older LSM publications. Never heard of John So or Max Rappoport or Sal Benoit or Bill Mallon or so many other "rebels" who walked away. But everyone has faults, right? So I became more critical, but not "negative" in the true sense, not an "opposer", though I would occasionally be critical, which was dangerous enough to the programme zealots. My smoking gun became this: when I read the footnotes to the RecV in the Psalms and realized that probably 70% of the verses were panned by LSM as "fallen" or "natural concepts" or "mixed". This completely flies in the face of NT reception of scripture. Look at Peter's speech in Acts 2. Did he say, "David was just in his natural mind, supposing that God would help him, a sinner."? No, Peter said that David was a prophet and was not speaking concerning himself but of the seed that was to come. Again and again the NT indicates that the writers and speakers of the books were looking to scripture as indicative of the coming Messiah. Some might be arguably not - the repentant Psalm 51 or some of the more vitriolic "imprecative" psalms come to mind (though even these have NT echoes if you look) - but the LSM version of the Psalms goes far beyond that. Jesus said, "David was in spirit" writing about Him. Nowhere does He, or Paul, or the gospel writers say that this was limited to the 40 explicit citations. Yet LSM either sees "NT believers enjoying grace" in the Psalms, or David/Asaph/&c expressing "natural" or "mixed" sentiments. When I saw that I also "rebelled" against this ministry, and its franchise churches. Nice people, but very, very misled.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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10-18-2017, 04:24 PM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 14
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Re: Smoking Gun?
I just want to send out a quick thx for the replies thus far- would love more. I also want to say I'm honored that y'all would share some of your story with me- I don't take it lightly or for granted. I realize there must be some deeeeeep thoughts/feelings/memories/hurts/frustrations/regrets/etc hanging around in some of those stories. I realize many have only shared the abbreviated version- May God's grace truly heal and restore as really only He can!
It seems to me that unlike some of the pretty clear "cults"- JW/LDS/etc...- LC just doesn't seem to have the verifiable clear cut one/couple/few teachings/practices that you can point at, stand up, and scream "Aha- Got ya- there it is!" Frustrating... And just to clarify- I don't think I currently see LC as a cult- possibly some cult-like tendencies- but I personally can't go far enough yet to label it a cult- perhaps some of you see it differently? |
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10-18-2017, 05:24 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Interestingly, the word cult is not in the Bible.
Strictly speaking, JW, LDS and every denomination is a sect because it is a "cut"(i.e. sect) in the Body. Cults are those groups like the KKK etc. |
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10-18-2017, 05:29 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
I don't know if this was deliberate, but it allowed him to be two things simultaneously: "different" and "the same". He wanted to be different because he needed to distinguish himself from the rest. He'd often say, "Nobody has seen this but us". Or, "Nobody else teaches this". This way he could hold the sheep in his pen. Everyone else, it seemed, was deficient, often hopelessly so. Only Nee & Lee had the up-to-date light; everyone else was passe. But he also had to be "the most orthodox", as he'd put it. He'd lay out his bona fides repeatedly. He trafficked in the legitimacy of Wesley, Luther, Calvin et al. (But somehow current followers of Wesley/Luther/Calvin were totally in the dark. ??) The other thing is, a lot of his more inflammatory statements got edited out, and never published. The oral messages were "polished" in LSM/lc lingo. So the stuff that was really 'out there' often never saw the general public. Provoke and then deny, over and over again. Lee didn't care if he argued continually, and had to explain himself yet again; as long as he was kept the center of it all, it was A-ok. . . this m.o. kept him right in the center of (a small) public consciousness.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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10-19-2017, 09:14 AM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
Keep reading, and you will see first hand all the diverse tactics they will use to dismiss legitimate concerns and discredit those who voice their concerns. It's kind of like watching our political news each night.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-19-2017, 09:48 AM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 14
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Ohio- thx for the heads up. And thx again to all the other input. Honestly- I appreciate hearing both sides. I have only had good to very good experiences at the LC- admittedly only about half dozen visits so far. I almost wonder if it might be as others have said- they don't have issues with the people in LC- but the leadership?
 (But I must keep in mind- those "leaders" came from within LC most likely...) The few folks I've gotten to know seem to sincerely love Christ and His word- joyful, thankful, faithful, reasonably healthy doctrine, etc... I am pondering- WL died about 2 decades ago  - his seemingly authoritarian church politics happened before that- I believe his apparently un-Godly sons are even passed? (I know nothing of the "Blended Brothers"- and who is/was "GLA" btw?) I don't see any recent claims about scandalous RV money schemes, sexual assault, people/churches getting quarantined/excommunicated... I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt here- but perhaps positive changes have come about in the last 20+ years? That's a loooong time... just wondering? I'm not trying to pull this post in a different direction- I think I might start a new thread somewhere else about "what changes have come since WL passed?" Sorry- new to this...
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10-19-2017, 10:42 AM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
Yes, Lee's sons are now also passed. Current leader/President is Benson Philips. His abusive style is on full display (as "Dan Williams") if you would read the first chap of former member Jane Anderson in her book Thread of Gold. Philips is a brutal, ambitious man who would "eliminate" anyone who got in his way, including Titus Chu, who was excommunicated 10 years ago, which divided all the LC's I knew in the GLA. He also excommunicated all of Brazil ~2010 because they had their own printing presses, and stopped buying books from LSM. Remember the saying "power corrupts?" And, yes, many, many precious saints are there, with too many abusive leaders, especially at LSM, with a smile on their face and a knife in their hand. The "Blended Brothers" are the leaders at LSM who give conferences and trainings. And DCP is the "Defense and Confirmation Project" which is little more than the legal arm of LSM ready to sue any publisher who speaks up. They are doing their best to shut down this website. When I left, I reminisced my many years there, putting together all my stories with a few other brothers I knew and discovered online, and then I got hit with the awful conclusion one day that this program turns beloved brothers into bullies. I saw this on a local, regional, and national level. It was systemic. The leadership style draws on elements from Chinese culture and the military. The established hierarchy is often maintained by regular "dress-downs," public shaming and humiliations of leaders, none of which you will witness while just meeting house to house.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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11-02-2017, 08:40 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,545
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Making Bullies out of Brothers
Quote:
As much as the legal issues that went on with Harvest House, when this forum's own "Indiana" sought to meet with DCP representatives face to face, they became conveniently unavailable. Another characteristic of a bully is they thrive better in numbers. At the local level, "the fellowship room" is well known. When a brother is summoned to the fellowship room, he can very well expect to be confronted by 10 or more brothers without any peer to advocate. One such brother I've known was summoned to the fellowship room, when the tables are turned as to end "the fellowship" abruptly, there's an unfavorable reaction "but we have meeting". If a brother being summoned suggests, "why don't we meet one on one or we can meet one on one and each bring a witness? Such a suggestion will never materialize for a time of fellowship to address issues.
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The Church in Los Angeles 1971-1972 Phoenix 1972-1973 Albuquerque 1973-1975 Anaheim 1976-1979 San Bernardino 1979-1986 Bellevue 1993-2000 Renton 2009-2011 |
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10-19-2017, 06:34 PM
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#13 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
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10-19-2017, 06:05 PM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 510
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
You mentioned in another post "I plan to talk with maybe 3 key people- elders or whoever." I did this as well. As another poster mentioned, it depends on how connected your locality is to the LSM. My locality was one of the top dogs in the pecking order, very well versed in steering conversations with college students. What you'll find over time that the rehearsed and memorized responses do not always match with reality. The funny thing is everyone knows it, but refuses to talk about it. For example: A member of Witness Lee's church may reject my comment that my old locality was a top dog - that... on the contrary... there is no hierarchical structure within the LSM (and may provide bible verses that point to WHY that is the case). But the sad truth (as you'll find) is that there is a hierarchy. Not only within the localities, but across the country (and I assume the world - but can't say first hand). My locality was a top dog, I ran in the circle with the top dogs. They would never admit to it... I mean... why give up the perks? What would you say if I told you I loved the new church I'm attending. We all pay for a weekly flyer written by a fallen man. On Sundays (eehm, the Lord's Day) We get together and use his words as an outline to then talk about this guy's writings. We read scripture, but only scripture that was translated by this dude... but actually we focus mostly on his commentary (eehm, footnotes). After that we sing songs that were written by this same guy (well maybe only 90% were written by him) so the rest are approved by him. Yeah this dude has somewhat of a shady track record, but he did a lot of good too. Out of all of his writings he mentions one time that he isn't always right (Life Study Genesis Message 88 - using this as a warning to "spies") but overall it is clear that he is always right, in fact, he is was the minister of the age - like Paul or Luther. Seeking any truth outside of his ministry means that you're being "negative" and may be "poisoned". Go and see it for yourself my friend
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Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. |
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10-27-2017, 10:43 AM
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#15 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 152
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Re: Smoking Gun?
With all this talk about ‘The Age’. What exactly is the definition or length of an age and how does this apply to the one unique minister of this so-called age? For example, if both WN and WL are both the unique minister of ‘the age’ then the term unique cannot be used. To me this is where the argument falls apart. First you need to define age as length of time and then there can be only one person if the term unique is used. If your argument is that only WL is the MOTA then who was the MOTA before WL, as an age certainly must be more than 100 years. If there was another MOTA during the same age then WL is not unique. When did this LC definition of age start start and when does it end? How do you fit one unique MOTA into this time frame while including Paul, WN, WL. Sorry LSM your reasoning is illogical and even worse -extra-biblical. There is no such thing as a MOTA specifically mentioned in the scriptures.
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10-27-2017, 11:09 AM
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#16 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,075
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
Let’s drop the term MOTA for a round because it has been morphed by detractors into loaded term to mean something like an office in the church..... far from its original and intended meaning when mentioned by Brother Nee. You say that Gods using of a unique leader in a particular time and place is extra-biblical. Yet, the biblical record really conveys that Moses, for instance, was God’s unique oracle, or mouthpiece, in his time. Would you agree that at least in that one case Moses was the unique leader in that age? If not, then who else? Drake |
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10-27-2017, 11:31 AM
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#17 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 152
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Re: Smoking Gun?
First of all it is LSM that is using MOTA - acronym for minister of the age. Second what you said that I said, I did not say at all. Recall that it was you who dismissed my question and changed it to your own. Third, true to LSM protocol, whenever they cannot find an answer in the New Testament they resort to the Old Testament. My answer to this is the same as the writer of Hebrews: In past days God spoke through the prophets (many times and many ways) today Drake he speaks through His son - Hear ye Him. If you cannot answer my direct question please do not deflect from my original question
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10-27-2017, 11:31 AM
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#18 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,075
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Re: Smoking Gun?
ZNP>”Fair enough, in order to accept that Witness Lee is the "Minister of the Age" requires that you both agree that there is such a thing as "the Ministry of the Age" as defined by LSM and that in this age this ministry involves the release of the truth concerning "the ground of the church" again defined by LSM.
I agree. If anyone does not agree with this then we can debate the point but it is an accurate descriptor. It’s fair game. ZNP>”This is another issue I have with this doctrine, it is divisive. It is not reasonable to think all Christians would accept those two points as being true. This is just another example of how this doctrine denies Jesus who redeemed us. The only requirement for you to meet in oneness with the church is that you have been redeemed by Jesus, but now you add this whole Ministry of the Age doctrine which you must receive to receive that WL was the Minister of the Age, which you must receive to accept that he is "the apostle" who appoints elders and takes the lead in this ministry.” I recall the Lord saying something to the effect of bringing in a dividing. For instance, many through their believing in the Lord Jesus and becoming christians divided their personal relationships with unbelieving loved ones yet they must be faithful to the Lords revealing Himself to them as their Savior. In the same principle, those who follow the call for the oneness of the believers may cause a similar unprovoked division. Yet, they must be faithful to what the Lord has shown them concerning the practical oneness of the believers even if it appears to be creating a division. If it is the Lord then we have to be faithful. Drake |
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10-27-2017, 11:35 AM
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#19 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 524
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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10-27-2017, 01:51 PM
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#20 | |
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Posts: 2,075
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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What can I clarify for you there? Drake |
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10-27-2017, 12:19 PM
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#21 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
However that is contrary to my definition of unbeliever which is anyone who does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Once again this doctrine denies the Lord who bought us with His blood. When we were in the LRC we were taught that we were "being absolute" and that this could result in us having to cut off many unprofitable relationships. But now I see "being absolute" about caring for the Body (feed my sheep -- command to Peter). Now, if I am absolute for the Lord then I have to also be absolutely concerned for His sheep. That means not doing anything that would stumble the sheep.
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They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God |
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10-27-2017, 12:52 PM
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#22 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-27-2017, 12:53 PM
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#23 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,384
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Greetings from the land of the retired. Funny that having more time has caused me to not even think about this forum very much. I think it is still an important venue, but not sure how much my participation will be.
On this thread I have only read the opening few posts, so this is not in response to any more recent war of words. I left the LRC in early August, 1987. Probably looked like a slow withdrawal to some, but it really was a specific decision over a particular few days to stop the LRC and go to a nearby Bible church. The reasons at the time were that the local group was too caught-up in the publishing business of the LSM and not being involved in that, or not joining in a regular way in the door-knocking efforts meant that you were little more than someone to nod at and accept money from. My wife and I were having problems and the general word was that more meetings would cure it. It took more than meetings, but we are still together. At that time, I did not have a reason to think I should never return to the LRC, but I never did find the desire for it. And some of the things taught (or said in a way that would now be claimed to not be a teaching) started to be a problem. Like everyone, I started by going back to the Bible to find the proof to defend what I had been taught, but the evidence was too often lacking. About 18 years later (2005), we came across a few books — the two from the first lawsuits, plus Jane Anderson's book. Those put things in front of us that I had never considered. And we were introduced to the predecessor forum to this one. Over the next 2 years I began to see how much of Lee's (and even Nee's) teaching was not really from the Bible, but had instead been forced into the Bible by overlays. Once the overlays were analyzed, it is evident that many of the teachings were not valid. I'll give an example. In 1 Corinthians 3, we were taught that we need to be worried about how we build — whether with gold, silver, and precious stones; or wood hay and stubble. It is true that Paul says precisely that related to the "builders." But one verse before the passage Paul defined the building and the builders. The building was the members of the church in Corinth. The builders were the ones that they had been arguing about — Paul, Apollos, Peter, etc. In other words, the teachers were the builders and those who learned from the teachers were what was built. (Don't over-milk the metaphor. Paul did not discuss the building — the local Christians — as being damaged by poor building. Surely there would be damage. But the "saved, yet as through fire" was about the builders, not the building.) I realize that we are not immune from the effects of listening to poor teachers (like Lee??) but that is not what Paul was talking about with the metaphor. He was talking about the responsibility that all of those teachers (builders) had in their tasks. In the grand scheme of things, that is a rather small error. But grouped with a body of similarly erroneous teachings, it comes to be a system of error. No one is the smoking gun. But the whole thing is smoldering. Then add the lies about righteous people because they did not allow Lee to leave his predator son in charge of the LSM, or the money-making schemes in which he and his family almost always made out OK at the cost of the savings of his flock, and it is a bonfire of iniquity.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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10-27-2017, 12:45 PM
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#24 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
"If it is the Lord then we have to be faithful?" Then why do so many of the Blendeds make comments about being faithful to Witness Lee, and are worried about how they will face Witness Lee in the next age? They are merely parroting the same comment Lee used to make about being faithful to Watchman Nee, and how he will give an account to Nee in the next age.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-28-2017, 02:19 PM
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#25 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Points of agreement.
In order to receive the teaching that Witness Lee is the Minister of the Age you must also agree with the teaching concerning the Ministry of the Age and that in this age that ministry is the release of the truth concerning “the Ground of the Church”. Quote:
The verses you are referring to are here: “32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” So if you apply these verses to justify the MOTA doctrine you are saying that this truth is equivalent to confessing Jesus or denying Jesus! Is this what you are saying or would you like to tweek that a little? Using these verses to justify MOTA on this forum is similar to hitting a hornets nest with a baseball bat. It seems to me that verse 37 absolutely condemns the MOTA doctrine and therefore it demonstrates that the MOTA doctrine is equivalent to denying Christ before men.
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10-28-2017, 06:26 PM
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#26 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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But of course. If Lee was the MOTA, if the Lord has a minister in every age, who is it now? No one. If the MOTA doctrine was/is something God has been doing, according to them, now God has changed His mind and plan, and no longer has a MOTA. As a result LSM & Co. can no longer teach the MOTA doctrine. That's why they are working to remove it from all Lee publications. Now they are pushing the Blended Brother's doctrine. Cuz now God is doing the Blended thing. Haha ... Just who do they think they are fooling? First they say -- from Nee by the way -- God has a MOTA, and now, after Nee and Lee are gone, God no longer has a MOTA. Haha again. What a joke! How can any except the most gullible and credulous buy into it? Maybe they don't know about or admit to the MOTA doctrine taught by Nee and Lee. That's possible. And even more possible if Kangas removes all references to it from both LSM Nee and Lee documentation. I think that cat is already out of the bag. Ya can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Because they've been unable to keep a lid on The One Publication, at least not all Nee docs can be scrubbed. Kangas can, however, scrub it from all Lee publications, since Lee is LSM's exclusive domain. (P.S. - I remember when I first heard of the Blended Brothers I busted out laughing. How can anyone that was in the LC during the MOTA doctrine days still stay in when the Blended Brothers were introduced? I got the boot over disagreeing with the MOTA doctrine. So no one can tell me there wasn't a MOTA doctrine coming down from Anaheim. It turned me off to Lee, and resulted in one of the best things that ever happened in my life : me leaving the LC. Amen Lord. Thank you Jesus. Hallelujah!!!)
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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10-28-2017, 09:31 AM
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#27 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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10-28-2017, 09:58 AM
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#28 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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10-28-2017, 02:24 PM
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#29 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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10-28-2017, 09:57 AM
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#30 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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BUT ... Moses was a type of Christ, building God's house. (Hebrews 3) For Nee and Lee to use Moses as a type of some N.T. MOTA is a perverted teaching acc. to Paul (Acts 20.30), and a destructive heresy acc. to Peter (2 Peter 2.1)
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10-28-2017, 02:26 PM
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#31 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Quote:
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10-27-2017, 11:36 AM
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#32 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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The Catholics have for two millennia believed wholeheartedly that there was always a "minister of the age" in their succession of popes. Different names, same reality. The Reformers (remember Martin Luther supposedly the first MOTA?) totally rejected the notion that any one man on earth can be elevated to this position in the church. Read those 95 Theses. Couple centuries later, John Darby was elevated once again as the first post-reformation MOTA. It took some quarantines to arrive at this stage. (Remember George Muller and Benjamin Newton?) Some historians have claimed that JND became a far worse pope than the one in Rome he protested his whole life. Today we should note that the Exclusive Brethren to this day still adhere to this MOTA heresy. Of all ironies, James Taylor Jr. (their 4th or 5th MOTA on record) was no less degenerate than Philip Lee himself -- amazing how history repeats itself for those who refuse to learn from it. Both Nee and Lee have repeated the Exclusive heresy. Each time it has introduced untold corruption to their ministries. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The teaching and practice of a MOTA just opens the gates of Hades.
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10-29-2017, 09:58 AM
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#33 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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Thanks for the link to Kangas, I think. As I've stated before his voice now rubs me the wrong way. But I noticed, Kangas is now looking like his hero, Lee. And he sometimes pronounces words like Lee. He says thay aren't Leeites, while they're all Leeites, without a doubt. He says when he met Lee there was no self ... and then this person with no self becomes the MOTA ... a self as big as God (a God complex). Laughable. So I guess there's no doubt that they are still teaching their MOTA doctrine ... with a slight change : An "s". That way today, with the Blenders, there are Minister"s" of the Age. All of this is laughable. I pity those trapped in it. May the Lord wake them up. We should stand outside this conference calling out, "Come out of her." And Kangas is a complete disappointment to me. Out of worship to Lee -- "he impacted my being" -- he has compromised all the convictions I thought he held back when he was the lead elder in the c. in Detroit. I thought I knew him. I was wrong.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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10-29-2017, 11:35 AM
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#34 |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
Koinonia >”And (here) is the outline for that message. The outline clearly says that WN and WL are "ministers of the present age." The outline carefully avoids using the specific phrase "the minster(s) of the age," although Kangas says it a number of times in his message. (Good thing we have video, right, Drake?)”
Of course I agree that they were “ministers of the present age” Have not been saying anything different. Drake |
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11-02-2017, 08:43 PM
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#35 | |
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Re: Smoking Gun?
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