Brainwashing

[aron]

Brainwashing is here defined as: what?

I say it's where people get their minds controlled by an external program, where they no longer think for themselves, but front another's thoughts, will, and desires. Of course in Christianity we willingly accept this. "Not I but Christ".

But I'm not talking about God's Christ here, but rather a fellow sinner.

How do we see brainwashing in the LC? I can think of two examples. First, a poster here recently relates to sharing a song on an LC forum and getting no response. The venue had over 1,000 members but not one admits to enjoying Christian music from outside the LC. That is forbidden territory. They've been programmed to see Christianity as lifeless. So, no music. (even though they use hundreds of songs pre-dating Nee.)

Second, Witness Lee could stand in front of hundreds day after day, and expound line after line, precept after precept, clunker after clunker, and nobody said a word of correction or adjustment. Home-made homelitics without any alloy. Just pure subjective impressions. And not a word of adjustment from anyone.

They were brainwashed. "Witness Lee is always right."

That, dear aron, is what bothered and continues to bother me most-- the granting of infallibility to WL, who was so glaringly filled with flaws and who taught strange interpretations that were pulled out of thin air at times. I could not and still cannot bear his writings and works. If all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and if " each one has", doesn't that indicate that NO ONE should receive the adulation and mantle of infallibility like WL has in the LC? EVERYONE has feet of clay and we are to call no man father-- and this means spiritually. While the LC may be smart enough not to call WL father with the exact terminology, they do indeed see him as such. This is repugnant and is what separates them from the rest of the universal church-- not superior teaching or life experience. The separation is based on worshipping at the wrong altar and never has been nor ever will be because Christianity is so poor and degraded.

Because he not only accepted this worship ( let's call it what it really is), and also encouraged it, I do not voluntarily read anything he said.I simply cannot stomach him both because of what I know about his life and because of the worship given to him which should be given to no one except our Lord. We are all sinners, but few of us claim to be MOTA. He had the audacity to do so.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

That, dear aron, is what bothered and continues to bother me most-- the granting of infallibility to WL, who was so glaringly filled with flaws and who taught strange interpretations that were pulled out of thin air at times. I could not and still cannot bear his writings and works. If all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and if " each one has", doesn't that indicate that NO ONE should receive the adulation and mantle of infallibility like WL has in the LC? EVERYONE has feet of clay and we are to call no man father-- and this means spiritually. While the LC may be smart enough not to call WL father with the exact terminology, they do indeed see him as such. This is repugnant and is what separates them from the rest of the universal church-- not superior teaching or life experience. The separation is based on worshipping at the wrong altar and never has been nor ever will be because Christianity is so poor and degraded.

Because he not only accepted this worship ( let's call it what it really is), and also encouraged it, I do not voluntarily read anything he said.I simply cannot stomach him both because of what I know about his life and because of the worship given to him which should be given to no one except our Lord. We are all sinners, but few of us claim to be MOTA. He had the audacity to do so.

Unreg,

You haven't made the case for brainwashing in the LC. The things you describe are not brainwashing.

Nevertheless, if you think you have described brainwashing then to be consistent 1.2 Billion Catholics are also brainwashed.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

That, dear aron, is what bothered and continues to bother me most-- the granting of infallibility to WL, who was so glaringly filled with flaws and who taught strange interpretations that were pulled out of thin air at times. I could not and still cannot bear his writings and works. If all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and if " each one has", doesn't that indicate that NO ONE should receive the adulation and mantle of infallibility like WL has in the LC? EVERYONE has feet of clay and we are to call no man father-- and this means spiritually. While the LC may be smart enough not to call WL father with the exact terminology, they do indeed see him as such. This is repugnant and is what separates them from the rest of the universal church-- not superior teaching or life experience. The separation is based on worshipping at the wrong altar and never has been nor ever will be because Christianity is so poor and degraded.

Because he not only accepted this worship ( let's call it what it really is), and also encouraged it, I do not voluntarily read anything he said.I simply cannot stomach him both because of what I know about his life and because of the worship given to him which should be given to no one except our Lord. We are all sinners, but few of us claim to be MOTA. He had the audacity to do so.

Amen bro unregistered. Because I rejected this infallibility elevation of Lee I was booted out ... way back in 1980, or thereabouts ... when I discovered I was in a cult.

Thanks for your post brother ... blessings.

[UntoHim]

Brainwashed, like the word cult, has a specific meaning within a specific context. Generally, people who are deeply involved in groups which practice brainwashing will seek to redefine the word itself. They will massage it, bend it, stretch it and go through all sorts of linguistic gymnastics until the actual word or term is unrecognizable, or just plain loses it's traditional meaning or definition altogether.

Let's take a look at the Merriam-Webster definition:
1) A forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2) Persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

Over the years, many Christian apologists have claimed that Witness Lee and many of Local Church leaders have created an atmosphere/dynamic which closely matches the description noted above. Having been a long-time devoted member and close observer of the Movement for over 40 years, I concur. Now, does every member of the group over the entire gambit of time and space exactly match the Merriam-Webster definition of brainwashed? Of course not...and I'm not aware of any outside apologist or former member who has ever claimed anything of the like.

It is interesting to note, however, that many, if not most, former Local Church of Witness Lee members have moderate to strong convictions which lean towards acknowledging that the atmosphere/dynamic within the movement closely matches many of the traditional definition/understandings of brainwashing.

Are Local Church members in danger of being controlled in the same manner of the most hideous cults, like Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple (of the infamous kool-aid murder/suicides) or the David Koresh's Branch Dividians (of the infamous Waco standoff murder/suicides)? Absolutely not, and I know of no Christian apologist, teacher or former LC member that has made a claim that comes anything close. But does this mean that the Local Church is a totally innocuous, benign Christian sect which can be considered a save and healthy place for young people and new Christians? Absolutely not. But, you see, there is a nearly infinite scale of possibilities in between these two descriptions, and I would strongly suggest that the Local Church of Witness Lee falls somewhere right in the middle of this scale.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Brainwashed, like the word cult, has a specific meaning within a specific context. Generally, people who are deeply involved in groups which practice brainwashing will seek to redefine the word itself. They will massage it, bend it, stretch it and go through all sorts of linguistic gymnastics until the actual word or term is unrecognizable, or just plain loses it's traditional meaning or definition altogether.

Amen bro Untohim. Lee's local church is not a cult of the body (kool-aid type cults) but a cult of the mind ... a soft cult, if you will.

They are not a cult like the Scientologists, that have enforcement departments, and agents. They are a cult like the Jehovah's Witnesses ... except they believe in hell, the trinity, and that Jesus is God. But still a mind control personality cult just the same.

But don't publish it, or upper members of that cult will use DCP, lawyers, and millions if necessary, to sue your pants off. The last thing they want the public to know is that they are a cult.

[Drake]

Thanks Aron.

LifeGoesOn twice asserted I was brainwashed so I would like him to take this opportunity to prove it.

Drake

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks Aron.

LifeGoesOn twice asserted I was brainwashed so I would like him to take this opportunity to prove it.

Drake

Reminds me of one of the current Sonic commercials. The doofus (of the two) says "it's like when we were back in college." To which the other replies "I was in college. You were in denial." "I was not!"

The problem with self-asserting that you are not brainwashed is that there is no way someone who was would know it. So your own assertion is meaningless.

[aron]

Here's my common-sense metric for brain-washing.

If the speaker up front says, "The moon is made of Green Cheese" and everyone in the audience claps and cheers then perhaps they are under some mass delusion. Because I see no objective evidence that the moon is actually composed of Green Cheese (or any other for that matter).

Witness Lee would stand in front of hundreds and speak things that strained the limits of orthodoxy, that contradicted each other (is this the 1987 doctrine or the 1974 teaching), that defied common sense, that bothered our consciences (many witnesses here have testified here), and that depart from Christian practice dating centuries. Yet after each one of these sessions, nobody would stand up and say, "Wait a minute".

So I say, Brainwashing.

See how easy it is to challenge each other? We do it on this forum all the time.

Yet we see a man who gave hundreds if not thousands of messages in front of who knows how many, and nobody EVER saw anything wrong? The man was that good? Or we were re-programmed? I say, the second, not the first.

"The tree of life is the center of the universe". Well, um, maybe not. I see the throne of God, and a river of water of life proceeding out of the throne, and the tree of life growing on either side of the river. So maybe the throne is the center.

Now, it may be the center, or it may not be. Maybe the tree of life is, in fact, the center. But it isn't as self-evident as Lee pretended it was. And we believed him, without question. The fact that nobody questioned his bland assertions, some of which were thinly made, indicates brain-washing.

Anyone who questioned anything was labeled "negative" and hustled out the door. The brainwashed and docile ones remained.

"Don't think, it will only make you confused." I actually heard this. What does this indicate? Brainwashing.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by aron

"Don't think, it will only make you confused." I actually heard this. What does this indicate? Brainwashing.

Yes! Exactly!!! Do not question or you will be in danger of the ""losing the flow" and in danger of falling into the "outer darkness" (TLR version of purgatory).

My wife was actually told to (I kid you not) "Pray the ministry into your being."

How about we get the Word of God into our being?!

Everything in TLR is self-centered and self-focused. All biblical references to the Body of Christ are viewed and taught in the LC as referring to members of the LC.

Just about everything I thought that I knew of God and the Bible came from the LSM (Recovery version notes, Life Studies, conferences, etc.).

Once I started reading the Bible and studying it for myself, not using LSM materials, the Lord started opening His Word to me like never before! He is so good!

I tossed every single LSM item I owned in a dumpster and haven't left over back!

For our dear brother Drake:
I am the unregistered who posted directly below our brother aron above. And you are correct. I did not make the case for brainwashing. I do not know for sure if these people are brainwashed and I don't care. I was not trying to make the case for brainwashing. I was picking up on the last paragraph of aron's post where he states that Witness Lee would go on and on about various things while he was teaching that were not correct.

It has always been my opinion that these people are willingly led astray. They are hooked in by one or two things that Witness Lee says that he actually got from Darby or others. Of course Darby and others were incredibly interesting, relevant and usually correct. He rode to fame throwing out various teachings of the Brethren to an audience who had not heard the teachings before. This is what gave him some credibility.
And I think that was the hook. It is just too bad that so many members of the LC do not take the time to read the writings of the Brethren themselves. That alone would set them free in many ways.

It is fine with me if others enjoy him. I believe in freedom In worship. I also believe in my own personal freedom to worship as I choose. All of the people in the LC have every right in the world to admire the teachings of this man if they choose to do so. What they do not have, according to scripture itself, is the right to worship him. Granting him infallibility and exclusivity makes it worship. They do worship him. There is no doubt about that. They worship him as some kind of intermediary between them and the Lord Jesus. He is their Pope. And that I find totally repugnant and completely out of line with Christian belief. But not only that, I find it to be utterly stupid. If everyone has a portion, then to focus exclusively on just one man's portion and accept that as gospel that can cancel out any other revelation, is denying oneself the very gift that God has provided.

[Drake]

LifeGoesOn,

You have asserted that I am brainwashed. Don't leave that assertion hanging in dead air. You are not a drive-by shooter in that sense are you?

UntoHim has provided a working definition. Start there. Or retract.

Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's my common-sense metric for brain-washing.

If the speaker up front says, "The moon is made of Green Cheese" and everyone in the audience claps and cheers then perhaps they are under some mass delusion. Because I see no objective evidence that the moon is actually composed of Green Cheese (or any other for that matter).

Witness Lee would stand in front of hundreds and speak things that strained the limits of orthodoxy, that contradicted each other (is this the 1987 doctrine or the 1974 teaching), that defied common sense, that bothered our consciences (many witnesses here have testified here), and that depart from Christian practice dating centuries. Yet after each one of these sessions, nobody would stand up and say, "Wait a minute".

So I say, Brainwashing.

See how easy it is to challenge each other? We do it on this forum all the time.

Yet we see a man who gave hundreds if not thousands of messages in front of who knows how many, and nobody EVER saw anything wrong? The man was that good? Or we were re-programmed? I say, the second, not the first.

"The tree of life is the center of the universe". Well, um, maybe not. I see the throne of God, and a river of water of life proceeding out of the throne, and the tree of life growing on either side of the river. So maybe the throne is the center.

Now, it may be the center, or it may not be. Maybe the tree of life is, in fact, the center. But it isn't as self-evident as Lee pretended it was. And we believed him, without question. The fact that nobody questioned his bland assertions, some of which were thinly made, indicates brain-washing.

Anyone who questioned anything was labeled "negative" and hustled out the door. The brainwashed and docile ones remained.

"Don't think, it will only make you confused." I actually heard this. What does this indicate? Brainwashing.

Speaking of brainwashing, perhaps conditioning is more acceptable and appropriate. Those raised in the local churches come to be conditioned when it comes to Tree of Life versus Tree of Knowledge. When there are concerns to address, you'll be told "you're eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Quite simply being LSM critical is Tree of Knowledge while being positive for LSM is to eat from the Tree of Life.
In this sense if you have concerns, issues, etc you will be labeled as negative as there is no possibility to express and address concerns/issues objectively without there being a subjective reaction other than to be told you're eating from the wrong tree.
Those who may have critical opinions towards LSM and remain meeting in the local churches do so keeping thoughts and opinions between their ears and never to come forth from their mouth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Speaking of brainwashing, perhaps conditioning is more acceptable and appropriate.

Every church, and I have been to many, have a certain level of "conditioning." They interpret verses according to their schools of thought, e.g. Pentecostals interpret every verse "in spirit" with tongue speaking. I happen to disagree, but I wouldn't say they are brainwashed, or some such.

Since the day of Pentecost, Christians have disagreed on many minor points of the faith. More than once I have spoken in other church settings, and have been "shut down" for not being from their "school." That's OK. Today, if I visited the LC's, they would shut me down too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's my common-sense metric for brain-washing.

If the speaker up front says, "The moon is made of Green Cheese" and everyone in the audience claps and cheers then perhaps they are under some mass delusion. Because I see no objective evidence that the moon is actually composed of Green Cheese (or any other for that matter).

Witness Lee would stand in front of hundreds and speak things that strained the limits of orthodoxy, that contradicted each other (is this the 1987 doctrine or the 1974 teaching), that defied common sense, that bothered our consciences (many witnesses here have testified here), and that depart from Christian practice dating centuries. Yet after each one of these sessions, nobody would stand up and say, "Wait a minute". . .

Yet we see a man who gave hundreds if not thousands of messages in front of who knows how many, and nobody EVER saw anything wrong? The man was that good? Or we were re-programmed? I say, the second, not the first.

"The tree of life is the center of the universe". Well, um, maybe not. I see the throne of God, and a river of water of life proceeding out of the throne, and the tree of life growing on either side of the river. So maybe the throne is the center.

Now, it may be the center, or it may not be. Maybe the tree of life is, in fact, the center. But it isn't as self-evident as Lee pretended it was. And we believed him, without question. The fact that nobody questioned his bland assertions, some of which were thinly made, indicates brain-washing.

“Some years ago I read an article regarding the size of the universe published by an institute of astronomy. According to this article, two hundred forty million solar systems make one galaxy, and forty billion galaxies form the unique center of the universe. I believe the throne of God is located in this unique center. “ (Witness Lee, Basic Training p. 9)

“Revelation 22:1 says, “He showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street.” The throne here is the center of the New Jerusalem. Every nation has a center. The center of a nation is its capital, the place where the central government is located. The New Jerusalem also has a center, which is the throne of God and of the Lamb.

According to the context of this portion of the Word, the throne of God and of the Lamb is the center of the New Jerusalem, on which the redeeming God, as indicated by the expression “God and the Lamb”, carries out His administration based upon His redemption, in His eternal kingdom in the new heaven and new earth, to keep everything in the universe in the order that serves His purpose.” (The Conclusion of the New Testament p. 2734)

“The throne of God in the center of the New Jerusalem is the unique source of the life supply. It is by His administration that God dispenses Himself into us as life, as the life supply, and as the eternal, absolute, all-inclusive grace. His dispensing of Himself into us depends upon His administration.” (TCONT p. 4419)

“The tree of life is the center of the universe. According to the purpose of God, the earth is the center of the universe, the garden of Eden is the center of the earth, and the tree of life is the center of the garden of Eden. We must realize that the whole universe is centered on this tree of life: nothing is more central and crucial to both God and man than this tree. It is very meaningful to see man in the garden standing before the tree of life.” (Life-Study of Genesis, p. 140)

“Looking at the plot plan of the temple compound, we can see that no matter through which gate we enter, we will arrive at the altar. When God comes from the temple to meet man, He likewise arrives at the altar. Therefore the altar is not only the center of the universe but also the meeting place of God with man and of man with God . . . the cross, therefore, is not only the center but also the circumference. . “ (Life-Study of Ezekiel, Msg 21)

"THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE - MAN" (Gospel Outlines, Title of Subject Three)

So, what's the center of the universe? The altar, or the tree of life, or the throne of God, or . . ? Answer: whatever Witness Lee needed it to be for that message. This was a ministry of expedience. Yet no one ever questioned these glaring contradictions. I could list many such examples - I just point out an obvious one.

All those messages in front of all those people. Yet nobody ever said, Wait a minute here . . . ??? Amazing, in retrospect.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

So, what's the center of the universe? The altar, or the tree of life, or the throne of God, or . . ? Answer: whatever Witness Lee needed it to be for that message. This was a ministry of expedience. .

When you look at the quotes from Witness Lee in the previous post, there's logic: 'A' implies 'B', which indicates 'C'. But notice that in each case the logical train leads to a distinctly different "center of the universe".

Absent formal theological training, and left to his own devices, Witness Lee could go on like this indefinitely. . . who knows how many more 'centers' he'd discover? Each message had it's own needs, and in each message, new 'truths' could be revealed. Didn't matter if one message contradicted another.

And most of us knew this, I suspect. We weren't really mesmerized, or brainwashed. We knew better. We knew the emperor really didn't have much in the way of proverbial clothes. But we kept our mouths shut, because we didn't want to be put out of the synagogue. Cf John 9:22; 12:42

"The fear of man brings a snare" ~Proverbs 29:25

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

“Some years ago I read an article regarding the size of the universe published by an institute of astronomy. According to this article, two hundred forty million solar systems make one galaxy, and forty billion galaxies form the unique center of the universe. I believe the throne of God is located in this unique center. “ (Witness Lee, Basic Training p. 9)

I said wait a minute, and when I did I was out of there. Why, cuz Lee went to far with his megalomania and the brainwashing quit working.

It's a testimony to the fact of brainwashing that no one said wait a minute when Lee spouted all this extra-Biblical center of the universe claptrap.

I'm glad I was gone long before this absurdity. I would have had to stand up and stop the whole conference .. with a very loud WAIT A MINUTE !!!!!

You'd have to be brainwashed to sit silently, and just accept this from Lee.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Brainwashing is here defined as: what?

I say it's where people get their minds controlled by an external program, where they no longer think for themselves, but front another's thoughts, will, and desires. Of course in Christianity we willingly accept this. "Not I but Christ".

But I'm not talking about God's Christ here, but rather a fellow sinner.

How do we see brainwashing in the LC? I can think of two examples. First, a poster here recently relates to sharing a song on an LC forum and getting no response. The venue had over 1,000 members but not one admits to enjoying Christian music from outside the LC. That is forbidden territory. They've been programmed to see Christianity as lifeless. So, no music. (even though they use hundreds of songs pre-dating Nee.)

Second, Witness Lee could stand in front of hundreds day after day, and expound line after line, precept after precept, clunker after clunker, and nobody said a word of correction or adjustment. Home-made homelitics without any alloy. Just pure subjective impressions. And not a word of adjustment from anyone.

They were brainwashed. "Witness Lee is always right."

Claims of brainwashing have been tried before against cults such as Scientology but has never stuck because there is no proof that brainwashing is real.

Scientifically speaking, brainwashing doesn't exist or cannot be proven. That's the official position of the APA, after many failed attempts to try and prove it is possible.

Probably the most brainwashing is in the actual belief that one can be brainwashed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Claims of brainwashing have been tried before against cults such as Scientology but has never stuck because there is no proof that brainwashing is real.

Scientifically speaking, brainwashing doesn't exist or cannot be proven. That's the official position of the APA, after many failed attempts to try and prove it is possible.

Probably the most brainwashing is in the actual belief that one can be brainwashed.

I like OBW's quote: "Nobody can convince me that I've been brainwashed!" But if you don't get it, sorry.

Something caused over 700 people to commit suicide in Guyana via poisoned kool-aid. Something caused people to give Moses Berg their children as sexual prey. Same with the Warren Jeffs group.

What causes people to abase themselves before others - is it to participate in the ecstasy of their self-exaltation?

And why do the Chinese fall so hard, here? I wonder if it's the combination of a desire for stabity, order, and structure which leads to exaltation of men (and women), combined with a negation of the individual for the common good.

For Drake: Of course we accept a fallen man's teachings on scripture...unless he gets it wrong and when he gets it wrong-- and everyone will be wrong sooner or later in this life. Please show me where anyone ever said that WL got something wrong. Please...can you show me where anyone managed to disagree with him and stay in a position of leadership? Was anyone allowed to "agreeably disagree"? I think we know the answer. And you know what I meant: the LC accepts everything WL said as if it is automatically true and without question-- at least aloud. Why don't you go ahead and try it sometime? Just bring up a different viewpoint after someone has read yet another footnote or paragraph from the monotonous readings and see how well it is received and how good the vibes are after you do it. You know very well that it is not acceptable in their closed culture. By demanding a citation, you attempt to win the argument even when you KNOW that what I and others are saying is true. The LC knows better than to put infallibility in print but they--and possibly you-- practice it and believe it in your place of worship. If day after day you read his material and find no flaw, then I have to wonder. And if you did find a flaw, what would you do or say? I bet you will go along with it because WL dwells in unapproachable "light". Both never finding a flaw in that mass of literature or finding one and being afraid to discuss it shows that infallibility has been granted in practice.

You know in your heart of hearts that what I am saying about granting him infallibility is true. If a group does not accept anyone else's revelation (unlike the Bereans) that may add something to what has already been said by WL or if they refuse to admit that there are some truly faulty and flawed teachings where they exist, you have granted infallibility. When we only allow a certain man's voice to be heard (exclusivity), he is being granted infallibility in practice. They are saying that he has it all! There is no one else that can share in written form for the church! Again, they are too smart to say this or admit it, but the practice is there.

Perhaps in your "gold bar" Recovery Version it says"each one" has. My translations say "everyone" or "you". I think it was understood by all here that I was using "man" in the sense of all humankind who are believers and was using it specifically here because WL was a man who pushed other men around and out of the church if they didn't show obeisance. And as far as different functions go, each of the functions listed after it all have to do with speaking. It is true that all may prophesy-- but none dare veer from WL's teaching. Oh-- it is all so monotonous and boring.

Since you have asked repeatedly for a citation in which WL claimed or was given infallibility, perhaps it would be helpful to cite a training from Thessalonians way back in which he said, "I am your apostle". Hmmm...let me see...what do apostles do? Ahh, yes, they write scripture. Oh yes, we can claim that they are just "sent ones" because it is true-- they WERE sent ones..but they were those who accompanied and knew Christ firsthand and we're instructed by Him to write/send their message out as God- breathed and inspired. But WL, I think, was claiming infallibility or something darn near to it. I was there..!I heard him say this..and my rebellion started there. He is not and was not MY apostle.

I just wish for once that those in the LC would just admit what they do and what they believe but they will not. There is too much face to lose.

[Drake]

Aron>"Of course this won't satisfy Drake"

It should not satisfy anyone. Really it should not even satisfy you.

You went out of your way you said to put the phrase "Deputy God" in quotes because you claimed it is a specific position and person. Quotes means you are quoting like I did with your sentence in the first line above.

You are responsible for the integrity of your own comments. You should supply your references so readers can read It for themselves in context.

Based on your response so far it appears you got nothing for us.

Drake

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

I like OBW's quote: "Nobody can convince me that I've been brainwashed!" But if you don't get it, sorry.

Something caused over 700 people to commit suicide in Guyana via poisoned kool-aid. Something caused people to give Moses Berg their children as sexual prey. Same with the Warren Jeffs group.

What causes people to abase themselves before others - is it to participate in the ecstasy of their self-exaltation?

And why do the Chinese fall so hard, here? I wonder if it's the combination of a desire for stabity, order, and structure which leads to exaltation of men (and women), combined with a negation of the individual for the common good.

If the communists couldn't brainwash POW's in Korea (and they really tried to), then I can't see how a little Chinese man could, who really didn't try at all:

In 1956, after reexamining the concept of brainwashing following the Korean War, the U.S. Army published a report entitled Communist Interrogation, Indoctrination, and Exploitation of Prisoners of War which called brainwashing a "popular misconception".[20] The report states "exhaustive research of several government agencies failed to reveal even one conclusively documented case of 'brainwashing' of an American prisoner of war in Korea."[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

[Drake]

Unreg >"Since you have asked repeatedly for a citation in which WL claimed or was given infallibility, perhaps it would be helpful to cite a training from Thessalonians way back in which he said, "I am your apostle"."

Reference please.

Unreg> Hmmm...let me see...what do apostles do? Ahh, yes, they write scripture.

There were apostles who did not "write scripture"

Unreg> "Oh yes, we can claim that they are just "sent ones" because it is true-- they WERE sent ones..but they were those who accompanied and knew Christ firsthand and we're instructed by Him to write/send their message out as God- breathed and inspired."

Not accurate. Paul did not accompany Christ nor did he know Christ in the flesh as you are arguing. Although James knew Christ according to the flesh all indications are that he did not accompany Him. Other apostles did not write "scripture". What you are doing here is setting up a seemingly biblical criterion to eliminate any other definition of a NT apostle except the one that you think will make your argument.

Unreg >"But WL, I think, was claiming infallibility or something darn near to it. I was there..!I heard him say this..and my rebellion started there. He is not and was not MY apostle."

Stop. This is just your vivid imagination. You never heard WL claim infallibility or anything even close, not even "darn near to it". If it were true it would have already been quoted here and elsewhere front page. If it were true I would have joined you.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If the communists couldn't brainwash POW's in Korea (and they really tried to), then I can't see how a little Chinese man could, who really didn't try at all:

In 1956, after reexamining the concept of brainwashing following the Korean War, the U.S. Army published a report entitled Communist Interrogation, Indoctrination, and Exploitation of Prisoners of War which called brainwashing a "popular misconception".[20] The report states "exhaustive research of several government agencies failed to reveal even one conclusively documented case of 'brainwashing' of an American prisoner of war in Korea."[21]

After all the derogatory things you have posted about the US Gov't, you now cite the US military as your authority?!?

You're pulling another "BibleAnswerMan" switch on us.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After all the derogatory things you have posted about the US Gov't, you now cite the US military as your authority?!?

You're pulling another "BibleAnswerMan" switch on us.

They are not my authority, they are my proof that the things people write about brainwashing are nonsense.

Or are you really saying that the US Govt failed to succeed in brainwashing programs, when Witness Lee succeeded? Who'da thought, drugs and electric shocks weren't the answer at all, all it took was daily devotionals and a steady stream of Amen's. Better tell the CIA.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Claims of brainwashing have been tried before against cults such as Scientology but has never stuck because there is no proof that brainwashing is real.

Scientifically speaking, brainwashing doesn't exist or cannot be proven. That's the official position of the APA, after many failed attempts to try and prove it is possible.

Probably the most brainwashing is in the actual belief that one can be brainwashed.

Oh not this again. Not there's no such thing as brainwashing. Such exquisite denial.

Regardless of how you frame it, local churchers live a heteronomy life, not a autonomy life.

And it's a need of the flesh. They need a fleshly leader.

"We want a king. Lord gives us a king, like all the others have."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh not this again. Not there's no such thing as brainwashing. Such exquisite denial.

Regardless of how you frame it, local churchers live a heteronomy life, not a autonomy life.

And it's a need of the flesh. They need a fleshly leader.

"We want a king. Lord gives us a king, like all the others have."

Well, scientifically that is a fact. Read the wikipedia article. Read the articles and position of the experts, the APA. You can't prove, scientifically that brainwashing is real. And heteronomy - that's religion.

If intentional, deliberate, brainwashing didn't work on American POW's, even with drugs, electric shocks etc, then it wouldn't work on current and former LC members because they said Amen a few times, would it?

Therefore those that believe they are brainwashed are "brainwashed" into a self-delusion or lie that they are.

There are rational explanations for what people call brainwashing, these are fear, coercion and survival. No one can really claim that WL was a Voodoo master who had control over people's minds against their will. Fear, coercion and survival are the repetitive themes on this forum, not brainwashing.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well, scientifically that is a fact. Read the wikipedia article. Read the articles and position of the experts, the APA. You can't prove, scientifically that brainwashing is real. And heteronomy - that's religion.

If intentional, deliberate, brainwashing didn't work on American POW's, even with drugs, electric shocks etc, then it wouldn't work on current and former LC members because they said Amen a few times, would it?

Therefore those that believe they are brainwashed are "brainwashed" into a self-delusion or lie that they are.

There are rational explanations for what people call brainwashing, these are fear, coercion and survival. No one can really claim that WL was a Voodoo master who had control over people's minds against their will. Fear, coercion and survival are the repetitive themes on this forum, not brainwashing.

Yep.

One of the favorite examples detractors of Brother Lee like to use is the tragedy of Jonestown as aron did here:

"Something caused over 700 people to commit suicide in Guyana via poisoned kool-aid. "

He uses this to argue a case for brainwashing but that explanation is naive and inadequate. First, they were in a physically constrained environment isolated in the jungle. Second, those who tried to leave were shot. Third, there was resistance to drinking the kool-aid as can be heard in audio's (those poor people were forced to drink and the children had no choice). There is no evidence that these people lost the faculty of their thinking. Rather, fear, coercion, and survival (yes, drinking kool-aid was an alternative to getting shot) were the operating motives for the most part. Even Jones himself was in fear.... fear of what would happen when they discovered what was really going on in Jonestown and especially in fear after he shot Ryan.

People live and die for causes they believe in. All sorts. Brainwashing has nothing to do with it. There are other compelling motives.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

One of the favorite examples detractors of Brother Lee like to use is the tragedy of Jonestown as aron did

Suppose all those people were not brainwashed, but killed. A madman and a dozen or twenty crazies killed hundreds.

But why did the parents hand their children over to Warren Jeffs and Moses Berg? Why did the Heavens Gate people commit suicide?

"There are other compelling motives" says Drake. Okay.

But why did Witness Lee give so many messages without ever needing correction, once? By any one of the thousands of listeners? Was he really that good?

Are all these posters here really that deluded as you suppose, and only you have the inside track on truth?

Why was there no venue in the LC to address issues? That's why this forum exists. Either Witness Lee was perfected and we were not and are griping about it, or he pulled a fast one. I'm tending toward the latter conclusion.

Yes many of my posts are off base (and I do apologize for it, repeatedly). Yes I get corrected for supposition, factual error, fallacy of thinking, bias. Guess what - only Christ dwelt in the Pure Light, without blemish. Christ Himself became our Light.

How can we put any fellow sinner on that spot. . . whether you want to capitalize deputy God, apostle of the age, God's oracle and so forth, or God's humble bondslave; the de facto rule in the LC was, "Lee is always right". Why?

Not all Apostles write scripture, but ONLY Apostles do. Claiming to be an apostle opens the door to adding to scripture! Let's just be frank, that's what it means. That is the only reason someone claims to be an apostle. When is the last time that you claimed to be an apostle? I certainly have not. You were splitting hairs here. Paul accompanied Christ spiritually. Christ appeared to him multiple times and gave him revelation. He was told to share this information with the church. I did not say that they accompanied him in the flesh. Those are your words. The Bible says that the Lord Jesus appeared to his brothers before ascending. So James knew him after the flesh and after the spirit. What an overwhelming experience to see one's own brother prior to his Ascension!

You continue to ask for a reference and no reference can be given. Those old videos of the Thessalonians conference that were created back in the seventies may have already been destroyed. If you can find them and watch them, you will see that what I have said is true. I have no idea how to get my hands on them and do not care to, really. But I can assure you that he said those words. I have to ask again, why is it necessary to claim to be an apostle? I have been in church all of my life under some extremely good ministers and not a one of them has claimed to be an apostle even though they were able to expound the word far better than WL. Ask yourself if you think that all of us who are sharing these things are liars. Do we seem to be Liars to you? I think you know better. This has been our experience and we are not lying.

Vivid imagination? Perhaps. But I would say that I have spiritual discernment. I'm not easily fooled.
Others have been. So I sit there in church and I hold my peace out of love for the Saints and love for my significant other. I'm sure that you and I would be good friends if we were in the same locality, Drake. I wish you well and I wish you revelation. I urge you to find and enjoy other biblical authorities. It is a lie that WL is the culmination of all biblical truth and teaching. It is a damnable lie. Why don't you read some other sources? What have you to lose? Think about that. What do you have to lose and why won't you do it? Perhaps you already do, and if you do, I salute you. Receiving the portion that other people have is what prevents us from going into error. As long as only one person is speaking, there is no checking system. His or her errors go unchecked and uncorrected.

I am done with this argument. It has been said that a man hears what he wants to hear and he disbelieves the rest. This is true of all of us. And so I wish all of you well as you pursue Christ in the way that you feel is best for you. We will all stand before the Lord and give an account for our stewardship of our Christian Life. May we all be found to have done well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Since you have asked repeatedly for a citation in which WL claimed or was given infallibility, perhaps it would be helpful to cite a training from Thessalonians way back in which he said, "I am your apostle".

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You continue to ask for a reference and no reference can be given. Those old videos of the Thessalonians conference that were created back in the seventies may have already been destroyed. If you can find them and watch them, you will see that what I have said is true. I have no idea how to get my hands on them and do not care to, really. But I can assure you that he said those words. I have to ask again, why is it necessary to claim to be an apostle? I have been in church all of my life under some extremely good ministers and not a one of them has claimed to be an apostle even though they were able to expound the word far better than WL. Ask yourself if you think that all of us who are sharing these things are liars. Do we seem to be Liars to you? I think you know better. This has been our experience and we are not lying.

Just to confirm what our Unregistered Guest is saying, WL used I Thess 2.13 as his so-called scriptural basis ...

For this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when you received from us the word of the message of God, you accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also works in you who believe.

Lee used this verse to subtly cause his most ardent followers that he was not only an Apostle on par with Paul, but his words should be received as from God Himself, and not as the words of man.

[Drake]

Unreg,

Oh my. There are so many bad assumptions, misunderstandings, and erroneous teachings in your post that it is cumbersome to unpack. I'm talking layers.

But, before you go, I'll give it a try.

unreg>"Claiming to be an apostle opens the door to adding to scripture! Let's just be frank, that's what it means."

Yes, let's be frank. This is just a construct in your mind. This is no evidence whatsoever that the motive behind claiming to be an apostle is so that having appropriated the title one can then "write scripture". There is a biblical definition of apostle and we can use it heartily in practice as defined. Second, the canon of the Bible is set to most people (some still want to change some verses to fit their private interpretations but that is a discussion for another thread). If Witness Lee said " I am your apostle", for the purpose of being able to write scripture then he failed miserably. In fact, he is one of the few ministers that so loved the Bible and protected it that he went through chapter by chapter in Life-studies and then again to cover the main points in a second series. He also covered various topics in depth and expounded teachings from different angles such as the meaning, the practice, and the experience. And nowhere during that time, including the Life Study of Thessalonians Training or a conference, did he ever intend to "write scripture". Even if he said "I am your apostle", which you have yet to provide the actual quote in context, it in no way suggests he said it to be able to then "write scripture".

unreg> "I did not say that they [apostles] accompanied him in the flesh. Those are your words. "

What you said was "they were those who accompanied and knew Christ firsthand and we're instructed by Him to write/send their message.."

I do not think anyone would take your "accompanied and knew Christ firsthand" comment to mean they met Him on an occasion or two, however significant that might have been. In any case, you are missing the glaring truth that there were NT apostles who did not write a single sentence of scripture. Either way, your narrow definition of apostle has no merit. The biblical and greek definition is "one who is sent away" as in an ambassador. Apostles may or may not have written scripture but they are always ambassadors.

unreg>"You continue to ask for a reference and no reference can be given. Those old videos of the Thessalonians conference that were created back in the seventies may have already been destroyed."

No reference can be given so we need to take your word for it. And we also need to take your word for it that if he did say it he meant that he wanted to write scripture. Thanks, but I'll pass on your recollection because I was there too. I think I would have remembered that. And if WL intended, as you allege, to claim the title of apostle so he could write scripture then that would be important enough to document so everyone knew! You can't really change anything if no one knows what you're thinking. Don't you think?

unreg>"I have been in church all of my life under some extremely good ministers and not a one of them has claimed to be an apostle even though they were able to expound the word far better than WL."

Here you are ranking ability to expound the word as some sort of index for apostleship. This is meaningless because you lack the proper understanding of the NT definition of an apostle and their function and purpose in the Body. You should not be so quick to dismiss or redefine the class of gifts God has given to the Body. Besides, I too have heard many a preacher, stood behind a pulpit myself and I rather liked his ability, style, and the light and life I personally received.

unreg>"Ask yourself if you think that all of us who are sharing these things are liars. Do we seem to be Liars to you? I think you know better. This has been our experience and we are not lying."

No, I don't think all sharing these things are liars. Perhaps once or twice I suspected someone knowingly gave a false account with malice of forethought. I think most are relating their experience as they remembered it. However, you are conflating opinion with fact. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. If you have facts put them on the table and let's read them for ourselves in context.

unreg>" I urge you to find and enjoy other biblical authorities. It is a lie that WL is the culmination of all biblical truth and teaching. It is a damnable lie. Why don't you read some other sources? What have you to lose? Think about that. What do you have to lose and why won't you do it? Perhaps you already do, and if you do, I salute you."

That is an example of rushing headlong without any knowledge and making demands on others to comply with your view. First, without asking you presume that I don't read other "biblical authorities" or sources. Second, this "WL is the culmination of all biblical truth and teaching" is a straw man of your own design that you set fire to it immediately to with " It is a damnable lie". The crowd roars in approval! Then you ask me what do I have to lose and why I won't do it.... I mean seriously Unreg, you get on your soapbox and preach down to someone about what they should and should not do and then salute them if they already do what you said they should? I don't think you need to go very far to find the source of the problem you are having with WL.

But look, thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the opportunity to address your comments.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well, scientifically that is a fact. Read the wikipedia article. Read the articles and position of the experts, the APA. You can't prove, scientifically that brainwashing is real. And heteronomy - that's religion.

If intentional, deliberate, brainwashing didn't work on American POW's, even with drugs, electric shocks etc, then it wouldn't work on current and former LC members because they said Amen a few times, would it?

Therefore those that believe they are brainwashed are "brainwashed" into a self-delusion or lie that they are.

There are rational explanations for what people call brainwashing, these are fear, coercion and survival. No one can really claim that WL was a Voodoo master who had control over people's minds against their will. Fear, coercion and survival are the repetitive themes on this forum, not brainwashing.

If you turn your brain over to someone else, to do your thinking and what to believe, they don't need to brainwash you. You submit your brain willingly to be controlled.

I know this how? I was there. I did it. But when autonomy set in, I was forced out. Thinking for yourself is not allowed in the local church. Do that and you are out.

So EvanG, pick another label for it if you like. But if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

[Drake]

awareness >"But if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If intentional, deliberate, brainwashing didn't work on American POW's, even with drugs, electric shocks etc, then it wouldn't work on current and former LC members because they said Amen a few times, would it? .

There is only one apostle per age... "Amen"

.... but the last apostle has died; it is now the age of small potatoes. "Amen"

Christianity is dead, lifeless, deformed, dormant, Christless, satanic, devilish. . . "Amen"

". . . but God sees no iniquity in the church "Amen"

We have to cover drunken Noah. . . "Amen"

... but continually point out the failures of others" "Amen"

Just say Amen every time the scripture is panned as fallen, mixed human sentiments, or natural concepts.

Say Amen even if the latest word from HQ is 180 degrees from the previous one.

Say Amen even if your conscience bothers you.

Say Amen when it boggles common sense, when NT precedent is overturned or ignored, when centuries of Christian understanding are up-ended by the latest revelation from God's oracle.

Witness Lee was so effective because people didn't realize what they were amening themselves into. He'd start with a Christian proposal, orthodox and accepted by convention, then take you somewhere new. And your excitement in following his revelations, at being one of the inner circle, kept the amens coming, even when the joy was long gone. Just keep exercising your spirit, brother!

So, if the "last apostle of the age has died", we must not have been talking about apostleship as a gift but, rather, as an office. This means being on par with Peter, etc., since the "gift" of apostleship is experienced throughout history by multiple individuals simultaneously, while the office by VERY few--as in the original group. If it were not the office of apostleship that was claimed, we would never say the last one had died.

Thank you, aron, for remembering what i remember. I know what i heard from WL and remember what the saints said. Others are entitled to their viewpoint, but so are we and we are also entitled to remember our experience as it happened. And it did.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Bro,

I love ya and want to see you set free. It's not my job to make you see anything. In fact, I can't make you do or see anything. The Holy Spirit can though, and I'm praying for that. . Hey, you're still here, so I think something good is taking place (Holy Ghost interaction).

I am NOT against you or any other LC member. We are all members of the same Body.

I was brainwashed and parroted the same mindless LSM lingo and phrases and I emulated the LSM promoted behavior. I even told my wife that her best friend (former full-timer) was "poisoned" once she "left the flow" and "took another way". The irony was that I spiritually dead and yet, full of "high peak truths". The best part is that our friend is ON FIRE for the Lord and seeing lives changed!

Ask the Holy Spirit to set you free! Come join us!

Scientifically speaking, and you can look up the American Psychological Association's stance on the matter for proof if you like, brainwashing is not possible so your claim of brainwashing is bogus as is any claim that any person is brainwashed.

Rather, you hold a belief that you were brainwashed, and this affecting your course of actions and beliefs is in itself a form of "brainwashing". This is similar to how hypnotism doesn't work if a person does not believe in hypnotism. Also, martial arts believe in some sort of invisible force or power that seems to work only on those who believe in it.

This is not to deny the experiences and feelings you had but you can be rest assured that scientifically speaking (again, can consult the scientific literature about this) at no time was any person in control of your brain other than yourself and you had complete freedom to come and go if you wished to do so.

I have also observed similar self-delusional Christian thought in miracle healing events and such. First, the pastor, family members or the person themselves will believe that they have a particular ailment (e.g. cancer, or one leg shorter than the other), proclaim some special healing prayer, and then observe the leg growing or the cancer gone. All this without scientific or medical verification. Mostly these are not genuine healings but the "healing" of self-supposed ailments which never existed or unknown to the person being "healed".

Convincing people that they have a particular disease when they don't is usually done by pastors using the so called "gift/word of knowledge".
e.g. a pastor claims to receive a word of knowledge from God that someone has a back tumor when in fact they don't.
People who have niggles and aches in their back from poor posture or old age come forward for "healing", thinking they have some undiagnosed tumor that God told the pastor about. The next day when their back pain is gone because of a good nights rest believe God healed them from a tumor and begin to tell everyone about it.

I think I have gone off track, but a better word for what you call brainwashing may be peer pressure or something else like that.

[Meribah]

After being a part of them for so many years (the LC), I have realized that there are those among us (in society and in church) who simply like being told what to think and do. Some of these people are not intellectually gifted. Some just don't like a fuss. Some are cowards. Some just love being a part of something where there is a set of rules that are never bent and that never change. Some like to climb the ladder and the rules that are in place make it easier for them. (There are many more of these than we think.) And then some of them just love to think they are part of an exclusive club. They like to be "in the know" in some sad, desperate way--and, if you are a part of the LC, you are one of the few that are "in the know".

I just let them have what they want. They are believers. They do know and love the Lord (plus WL and the church). They do hold to the great truths of the faith. They just want to, well, let someone else do the thinking and follow along.

But as for me and my soul, I will remain free and think for myself after reading multiple good sources and His Word (without footnotes). I will stand judgment before God alone. No one will be with me. Because of this, I MUST think for myself--something nearly impossible in the LC without great internal (and external!) conflict.

I know what you all mean by brainwashed here. I don't wish to argue. But I think the huge majority are there simply because they want to be or have to be.

[awareness]

Just as Christian's in all groups they are right where they belong, until they aren't. No one forces them to stay. They are eager followers of Witness Lee and his system.

They are told to get out of their mind's, and they do it. They are in fact proud of being out of their minds.

Brainwashing to them is just a way to keep their minds clean. Praise the Lord!

[Freedom]

The following is a link to an article on mind control methods that was posted on the Facebook group:
http://www.decision-making-confidenc...l-methods.html

I was struck by how much I could relate to regarding some of the things that I experienced in the LCM. I will post more later, but here are some tidbits from the article:

Those who are conned or deceived into joining a cult will be put through an unfreezing process. Every group has their own manner and particular tools for doing this but there are many common mind control methods to achieve it.

The basic idea is to distance people from their past, to make their past bad, or evil, or the source of all their problems.
-------------------
It's very common to take new members to seminars and courses in remote areas. In their time off, there's no place to go and so they literally spend 24 hours a day in the cult environment.
-------------------
The constant presence of other group members means a lack of privacy. More specifically, it means lack of time to think, ponder and rationalize.
-------------------
On top of all this, cults tell the new members that they are defective in some way, their lives are not working, they are sinners in the eyes of God, they're poor, they're worthless, useless or even mentally ill. Self confidence is undermined and they begin to look to the environment for clues about how to think and act.
-------------------
Repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, is very important in indoctrination.
-------------------
Destructive cults have two main aims, earn money and recruit members. Therefore, as soon as possible, the new members have to go out and recruit new members.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The following is a link to an article on mind control methods that was posted on the Facebook group:
http://www.decision-making-confidenc...l-methods.html

I was struck by how much I could relate to regarding some of the things that I experienced in the LCM. I will post more later, but here are some tidbits from the article:

Those who are conned or deceived into joining a cult will be put through an unfreezing process. Every group has their own manner and particular tools for doing this but there are many common mind control methods to achieve it.

The basic idea is to distance people from their past, to make their past bad, or evil, or the source of all their problems.
-------------------
It's very common to take new members to seminars and courses in remote areas. In their time off, there's no place to go and so they literally spend 24 hours a day in the cult environment.
-------------------
The constant presence of other group members means a lack of privacy. More specifically, it means lack of time to think, ponder and rationalize.
-------------------
On top of all this, cults tell the new members that they are defective in some way, their lives are not working, they are sinners in the eyes of God, they're poor, they're worthless, useless or even mentally ill. Self confidence is undermined and they begin to look to the environment for clues about how to think and act.
-------------------
Repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, is very important in indoctrination.
-------------------
Destructive cults have two main aims, earn money and recruit members. Therefore, as soon as possible, the new members have to go out and recruit new members.

Great article!!!

[Freedom]

On top of all this, cults tell the new members that they are defective in some way, their lives are not working, they are sinners in the eyes of God, they're poor, they're worthless, useless or even mentally ill. Self confidence is undermined and they begin to look to the environment for clues about how to think and act.

Because I grew up in the LCM, my experience is a bit different than those who joined as an adults. At some point, however, as I started participating in the LC more and more, I started to get these notions that I was good for nothing, that my goals/ambitions were meaningless, etc.

For me, such notions were exactly what made me so susceptible to the LC environment. By the time I started college, my only real purpose in attending college was because it was a requirement for FTT attendance. Thankfully, I never attended the FTT, and I also figured out what career path I wanted. At the same time, it's shocking to think how easily things could have turned out for the worst.

It's very common to take new members to seminars and courses in remote areas. In their time off, there's no place to go and so they literally spend 24 hours a day in the cult environment.

Seminars running late at night means there is little time for sleep, and a tired person is a more compliant person, less able to think critically. Control of mealtimes and control of the food is another way to alter somebody's physiology.

When I was in high school and college, we had somewhat frequent retreats/conferences. In fact, with the campus work, one of the immediate goals was to get the "new ones" to attend a college conference. Such conferences always had intense schedules with little time for rest/recreation. Every time I attended these kinds of events, the vast majority of people there got worn out and tired quickly because of the schedule. I know for me personally, it made me much more willing to sit there during the meetings and take in whatever was spoken, since I just wanted the meeting to be over.

In the same category, I would also include the semi-annual training that I attended. We had 2 study sessions in the morning, then had to commute to Anaheim, followed by 2 meetings that were 2.5-3 hours long. The messages were complete information overload, and I think that kind of environment made people susceptible to uncritically accepting whatever was spoken.