Out of Egypt

[LifeGoesOn]

My Testimony - Part I

I am very encouraged by this forum and its ability to help me see the depth of the deception that I was a part of for close to 40 years in the LC. I am not bitter. I just want to see all the members of the Body who meet in the LC freed from the religious system known as the Lord's Recovery. I want them to experience all that God has for them, with members of His body outside of the LC, and know how amazing He is!

I was born and raised in the LC (Midwest). I was a member of the LC from the time of my birth in the late '70s until about two years ago (2014-15).

I was a "church kid" and truly believed in the Lord and His love for me ever since I was very young.

I got involved in music and playing in bands during junior high and did that throughout my young adult life. I went to all the SSOTs and many young people's conferences.

I never doubted Jesus' work on the cross or His love for me. I just didn't develop a real relationship with Him until at least my latter college years, and a very limited one at that.

In college I "did the college thing" and partied. Still went to meetings, but not having a solid relationship with the Lord, I wasn't "going on". However, the Lord never gave up on me.

After college I moved to the South and met with LC saints in the city I moved to. I lived with one foot in the world and one in the LC. I religiously went to meetings, read the Morning Revival and even the Life Studies. The Lord used my difficult work environments to cause me to seek Him. Eventually, as I sought Him more and more, the world started to lose its appeal. I needed reality and peace. The world couldn't offer that.

I continued to go to conferences and meetings. I served in the cleaning of the meeting hall. I even had a "vital group". There were times that I truly enjoyed the Lord with the saints and even at conferences (although not many).

In spite of doing "the rights things" and going to the meetings, my joy just slipped away. The "church life" was very superficial to me and I wanted LIFE, JOY and REALITY. I read about these things, listened to many messages on them and attended conferences about them, but they were not my reality. These things were, for the most part, just theory.

I got married to a sister in the LC, who had grown up outside the LC, in an unbelieving home. She was brought into the LC when she came to know the Lord. That was the only form of Christianity she knew. We pursued the Lord together and were content with our "church life" for a while. Eventually though, we became disillusioned and had spiritually flatlined.

We knew that there was more to the Christian life than what we had experienced up until that point. But, what could we do? Attend more meetings, more conferences? "Pray the ministry into our beings"? Do more "stuff" in the LC? None of it satisfied us.

The big meetings were DEAD. Even our home meetings, which we thought might be the answer, were DEAD. They were just a mini version of the big meetings (spiritual deadness in a small package).

My wife and I talked about this and how much we just dreaded going to the meetings. We even used our kids as an excuse to meet less and less often, especially when they were babies. We felt bad, but couldn't keep living in spiritual deadness. We wanted LIFE!!! We constantly heard about how bad "poor, degraded Christianity" was, but by the Grace of God we started doing the one thing that a LC'er is strongly warned not to...we listened to what christians outside of the LC had to say and actually started to study the Word of God without using the Recovery Version and its notes! Woah!!! The Lord speaks through members of the Body outside the LC....and it's LIFE too! We were so excited to see this and we're lead to watch and read many amazing things that He is speaking.

The thought that there is only ONE UNIQUE MINISTRY and one MOTA is LUDICROUS to me now! But, I believed it unquestioningly before. What spiritual blindness!

My wife and I were soooo happy to get life from a host of sources outside the LSM that I began to share my joy with members of the LC. I mean, if you had medicine for someone you loved who was dying, wouldn't you want to share it with them?

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC." After a while I just stopped sharing. I did have one breakthrough though (my dad), which is awesome! Thank You Abba!

We knew we couldn't continue to go to dead meetings and read the LSM materials for much longer. For a while we would go to LC meetings for and share our new found joy with the saints. We would not tell them the sources though. . We wanted to encourage the saints and maybe change the system from within.
Eventually, we realized that we couldn't. We had to leave.

It's one thing to feel that way and want to do something about it, but quite another to break free from a lifetime of conditioning, culture, vocabulary, self-righteousness, (amongst a host of other things) and overcome one of the enemy's biggest obstacles to leaving the LC, the lie that "There's NOTHING for you if you leave the LC. Just outer darkness. You may as well not even meet." I believe that many in the LC realize all the reasons that they should leave, know that they are dying inside spiritually, but get stopped from leaving because of this satanic lie/roadblock.

The short version of my story is that Holy Spirit made it so clear to my wife and I that He was leading us out of the LC. As most of you who have spent a decent amount of time in the LC know, especially if you have family in it, it can be very difficult to leave. However, the Lord is awesome and lead us out without resistance from the LC leadership. No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings. We only had a couple of saints invite us over for a meal after we left, but they didn't even ask about us leaving. It was if we didn't even leave. The Lord made it really easy to leave.

I found out later from my mom that, "the saints wondered where we were", but none asked us about it.

That was the first stage of our new Christian life. Now what? We were told that everything else was "the outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth."

What lay ahead next was our "Out of Egypt and into the wilderness" stage. I will leave that for part two.

[Drake]

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

Drake, isn't it obvious from testimonies like this one by LifeGoesOn that what grips people and keeps people is not a vision, but fear.

Elders know that. Besides their "job" is not to actually shepherd the church, but to keep them connected to Headquarters in Anaheim.

Before LSM took over all the LC's, we actually looked forward to getting together, and we actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, isn't it obvious from testimonies like this one by LifeGoesOn that what grips people and keeps people is not a vision, but fear.

Elders know that. Besides their "job" is not to actually shepherd the church, but to keep them connected to Headquarters in Anaheim.

Before LSM took over all the LC's, we actually looked forward to getting together, and we actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit.

It actually is quite telling that LC elders will ignore those who have left or 'disappeared'. Given the job description of elders, it is completely reasonable to expect them to at least contact someone to see why they're gone. But in the LC that rarely happens. And I think it's because elders realize that once someone has mustered up the courage to look outside the confines of the LC, that person is a lost cause as far as they're concerned.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Before LSM took over all the LC's, we actually looked forward to getting together, and we actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit.

I wonder though...

How is it that this "...we..." who "...actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit..." . . . Were so weak as to allow this "...LSM..." to come in and take over "...all the LCs..."?

Isn't it something how people always look at other people... And never seem to look at themselves.

Now... I am very familiar with this scripture... 2 Corinthians 12:10... "Therefore I am well pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions and distresses, on behalf of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am powerful."

I'm wondering... In the light of the above scripture... Were these "...we..." who allowed this "...LSM..." to come in and take over "...all the LCs..." actually being powerful in their weakness?

Or could it have been the other way around...

Meaning... This "...we..." who allowed this "...LSM..." to come in and take over "...all the LCs..." were actually thinking they were powerful... But were really weak because they thought they were powerful.

Hmmm?

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

Very true. As a follow-up to what I posted earlier, along with what Terry posted, it seems like the tendency to ignore those who have 'disappeared' from the LC is something that is quite deliberate.

As I see it, it is meant to send a message that whatever the concern/issue might have been, it was not legitimate. And by failing to even acknowledge the person that left, elders succeed in minimizing the issues that cause people to leave the LC. It goes to show that they are driven by certain motives. There is no reason they can't wish someone well who chooses to leave. Actually, if the LC were capable of reform (which it isn't), it would be in their best interest to try to do an "exit interview" when someone leaves the LC.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

As I see it, it is meant to send a message that whatever the concern/issue might have been, it was not legitimate. And by failing to even acknowledge the person that left, elders succeed in minimizing the issues that cause people to leave the LC. It goes to show that they are driven by certain motives. There is no reason they can't wish someone well who chooses to leave. Actually, if the LC were capable of reform (which it isn't), it would be in their best interest to try to do an "exit interview" when someone leaves the LC.

Yes, there's a tendency to trivialize issues. We've heard the terms, "unfulfilled ambition, unforgiven offenses, etc". Rather the stance many elders have taken is "not to make an issue of persons, matters, or things". Quite often why some end up leaving is due to unaddressed issues that had been stonewalled by elders. When reconciliation is discouraged from being sought, it places a brother or sister in a position of either pressing the matter or to find an alternative assembly to fellowship with.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

When reconciliation is discouraged from being sought, it places a brother or sister in a position of either pressing the matter or to find an alternative assembly to fellowship with.

For a ministry which so prides itself in "2-Step Reconciliation" according to II Cor 5.20 Footnotes, it is truly ironic to see so little reconciliation between leaders, even those who had been together for 10-20-30-40 years.

LSM leaders, including WL himself, have attempted to shortcut the most elementary of Christian lessons, i.e. love, forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation, etc. and then attempt to bribe their consciences and think they have arrived, while the rest of the body of Christ rightly honors our Lord's exemplary prayer, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

Their sheep?

... and yet, you are not Lifegoeson. I'd like to know what he expected.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Their sheep?... and yet, you are not Lifegoeson. I'd like to know what he expected.
Thanks
Drake

Wow. You are really quite arrogant. If you are so picky about words let me say yes His sheep but the ones sheperded by LC elders. Is that fair enough? I'm not LifeGoesOn and yet am I now allowed myself to express my own thoughts here? I was someone who's like LifeGoesOn in which when I left, "No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings." Why would you just wanna hear him not me? Don't you LC love saying "everyone has a portion"? Isn't everyone encouraged to share. If I resonant with something can I not share a member of the body? Your "thanks" is really ignorant sounding like you are offended by what I say and want to shut me off. If you don't want me to share anything just because you didn't ask, please just ignore me and I won't interrupt your conversation with LifeGoesOn (by the way if you just want his answer not others' you should have just messaged him in private) thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow. You are really quite arrogant. If you are so picky about words let me say yes His sheep but the ones shepherded by LC elders. Is that fair enough? I'm not LifeGoesOn and yet am I now allowed myself to express my own thoughts here?

Hello, are you the same poster in post #7 of this thread?

It really helps readers such as myself to connect posts from the same writer. If you prefer not to register, could you at least put some "name" description on your posts to link them together.

Thanks.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow. You are really quite arrogant. If you are so picky about words let me say yes His sheep but the ones sheperded by LC elders. Is that fair enough? I'm not LifeGoesOn and yet am I now allowed myself to express my own thoughts here? I was someone who's like LifeGoesOn in which when I left, "No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings." Why would you just wanna hear him not me? Don't you LC love saying "everyone has a portion"? Isn't everyone encouraged to share. If I resonant with something can I not share a member of the body? Your "thanks" is really ignorant sounding like you are offended by what I say and want to shut me off. If you don't want me to share anything just because you didn't ask, please just ignore me and I won't interrupt your conversation with LifeGoesOn (by the way if you just want his answer not others' you should have just messaged him in private) thanks.

Unreg,

You have way overreacted.

This is an open forum. You are welcome to share your views here. I have no interest in shutting you down. I posted publicly and you may respond publicly. Rightfully so.

Second, the views I express here are my own. I am not a spokesperson for the churches in the Lords Recovery. I have a viewpoint just like you.

I want to know if Lifegoeson, the originator and public poster of " No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attended the meetings" expected the elders to reach out.

Please continue. I certainly have no objections but even if I were so inclined it is irrelevant.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Their sheep?

... and yet, you are not Lifegoeson. I'd like to know what he expected.

Thanks
Drake

Drake, you have studied the Greek. The word shepherd, or pastor, denotes a strong bond with his flock of sheep. Hebrews says "they watch over souls and will give account."

One of the most outstanding failures in the LC program was the elders forced allegiance to headquarters (and I witnessed that in both Anaheim and Cleveland) at the expense of (1) the saints, (2) their own conscience, and (3) the Lord Himself.

The Lord's Recovery should rightly be called the "church of Witness Lee." It is not the church of God or the church of the saints, which descriptions abound in the NT.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

Elders I knew or knew of that had pastoral hearts were forced out nearly 30 years ago. Even one who stayed in a diminished capacity such as Francis Ball had a pastoral heart. I have found many of the current elders have not exhibited that. They may say we love brother "so and so", but won't go visit him. The present function of an elder is more of a local administrator than it is being shepherd. Which current elder would go to an assisted living facility or a nursing home to visit a former LC member? I can think of one former elder who did such a thing in his visits to Southern California.
************************************************** ****
"In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace."
Who ever did such a thing to "quarantined" brothers? Or even that simply stopped meeting?
Often my view of the current status of Local Churches is as the elders, deacons, etc they have the attitude "we set the meeting times. Those that stop meeting, they know where we are. If they want to meet with us, we're right here."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

"In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace."
Who ever did such a thing to "quarantined" brothers? Or even that simply stopped meeting?

Witness Lee himself taught all the LC leaders how to treat those who refused to kowtow to him, using the example he established with John Ingalls -- it is a calloused stone-hearted shunning very similar to the Amish and the Darby Exclusives.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

Isn't that why they take attendance in the meetings?

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

I did indeed expect them to reach out to me and family. I'm not mad, just think it's odd that there has been zero inquiry as to why life long members of TLR "disappeared" or whatever the LC terminology for leaving is.


BTW, there needs to be a thread on LC terminology/vocabulary.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

BTW, there needs to be a thread on LC terminology/vocabulary.

We've done those threads before.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We've done those threads before.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Quite dramatic!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We've done those threads before.

How about this thread The LC Lexicon

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about this thread The LC Lexicon

I'm reading it now. Wow. It's amazing how nutty the LC lingo is and how it still is, to some extent, part of my lingo. Every time I catch myself using LSM terminology I try to make a conscious effort to never repeat it.

I threw away EVERY SINGLE piece of LSM literature I owned, even my Bibles.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I did indeed expect them to reach out to me and family. I'm not mad, just think it's odd that there has been zero inquiry as to why life long members of TLR "disappeared" or whatever the LC terminology for leaving is.


BTW, there needs to be a thread on LC terminology/vocabulary.

LifeGoesOn,

I think they knew why you left, didn't they? Your views were not totally concealed under the circumstances you described.

Drake

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Drake

LifeGoesOn,

I think they knew why you left, didn't they? Your views were not totally concealed under the circumstances you described.

Drake

You know, I can only guess as to why they didn't reach out to me and my family since I never made any negative public statements (in the meetings or otherwise) regarding the LC or LSM and it's leadership. We just eventually stopped going. We just faded out.

[Drake]

LifeGoesOn,

The elders knew why you left based on your testimony, .....


"My wife and I were soooo happy to get life from a host of sources outside the LSM that I began to share my joy with members of the LC. I mean, if you had medicine for someone you loved who was dying, wouldn't you want to share it with them?

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC.""

... and they did not reach out to you after you left because you had gleafully gone your own way.

Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

You know, I can only guess as to why they didn't reach out to me and my family since I never made any negative public statements (in the meetings or otherwise) regarding the LC or LSM and it's leadership. We just eventually stopped going. We just faded out.

That's usually how it goes. Yet all it takes in one person to take it up as an interest to continually visit to gain a brother or sister. That was my dad's situation. He was never negative. Never critical, but consistently in the ministry. When my dad stopped meeting, who came to visit? No one I saw while I was living in California. You just fade away until one person instead of "just wondering what happened to brother _____" takes the initiative to go visit. Imagine that gaining a person by visiting them.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

I know we are not supposed to have so called natural relationships or what is strangely called natural preference in the LC, but this must be a rhetorical question.

If not the elders, at least some of the people LifeGoesOn and I grew up with, those who took care of us as kids and were there throughout our whole lives, not to mention those whose kids we later served at camps and Saturday night meetings when we were older. Not 1 person, not one called even after two weeks, three weeks, four weeks to see if we were sick or needed help, to see if we were going through marriage trouble, trouble with the kids, financial difficulties, nothing. No one called to grab bite to eat (which they previously often had). No one called get the kids together and play (which they often had).

We stopped meeting with the LC more than a year ago. A few months in with our current group, my wife and I were there for two weeks straight. Sickness and a short vacation. They called to see if we were ok. They emailed my wife just to tell her they had missed her and her small group. Did I expect them to call, to email? Not really because of the above experiece, but it was so comforting when they did.

[Drake]

-1

ABF,

That’s different.... unless you left like LifeGoesOn. See #36

Drake

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1 ABF, That’s different.... unless you left like LifeGoesOn. See #36

Mentally and spiritually, I left slowly. Physically my family and I left from week to the next. Without word. (But certainly with the Word).

I, like LifeGoesOn, shared my enjoyment from the Word. I wondered out loud in small groups if the footnotes fit with a larger context, not just the few verses provided (or not) to support the point. I asked questions. I kept reading the Word and enjoying. I slowly left the footnotes. I stopped reading the HWFMR because it often time made no sense. At all. None. There was so much twisting and contorting just to make a point. There were so many ellipses, so much left out that just reading it was difficult to follow. The point was made over and over and over without ever being supported, without really saying anything except saying what it was saying what it wanted to say in order to say it again.

And so, one Sunday we were there, and the next Sunday we weren't. Brothers and sisters who had known my parents before they were married, one brother who even married them, brothers and sisters who have known me since I was born were silent. And that is the silence I heard echoing in your question.

Your question, the one I quoted, was unintentionally rhetorical in a revealing way.

I think, correct me if I am wrong, you were saying you wouldn't expect the elders to call, to ask (in short to care) because of the way LifeGoesOn left.
Your question, "Did you expect them to?" reveals the lack of expectation of care, of patience, of love, of shepherding, of kindness, etc that is par for the LC as soon as anyone questions, even in a searching, genuine way, the writ of Witness Lee.

What do you think of the Elder's reactions in the case of LifeGoesOn (just based on what you know from here), and in my case?

[Drake]

-1.

ABF,

In the case of LGO, just from what I read, I would have debated about calling but probably would not have mainly because he sounded as if his mind was made up and he went his own way emphatically.

By your description, I would have called you but if you insisted to not be bothered or became annoyed then I would cease unless I knew you very well then I would have annoyed you for years.

Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC."

Publicly and privately I have shared my analogy of the "high peaks" versus the low gospel.
High peaks equates to flying in a 747 or 777 at 40,000+ feet. You're at such a high elevation, you miss out what's happening at ground level.
Low peaks equates to being at ground level whether you're in a train or auto.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Terry

Publicly and privately I have shared my analogy of the "high peaks" versus the low gospel.
High peaks equates to flying in a 747 or 777 at 40,000+ feet. You're at such a high elevation, you miss out what's happening at ground level.
Low peaks equates to being at ground level whether you're in a train or auto.

Nice.

But then, an eagle soars high above the ground... And yet can certainly be aware of what is taking place on the ground below — even in minute detail.

But in this earthly environment we live in, eagles may get hit by a plane because as it dives to earth with a single objective in sight... It doesn't see what is happening in the space between it and the objective on the ground.

But the Lord... Who is likened to an eagle in some scripture verses... See everything.

Which is why... Better than being at high peaks... Or low peaks... Or even in between peaks... Is just being in the Lord at all times.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I found out later from my mom that, "the saints wondered where we were", but none asked us about it.

That's often the case. Saints may wonder or may assume, but don't take initiative to ask directly.
Summer of 2013 prior to my uncle's cancer returning I had a dinner with my uncle and aunt. There was much of the same..."wondering what happened to John Ingalls".
Similar situation for me. When I stopped meeting with the Church in Bellevue, six months went by before anyone asked a direct question.
Others may make assumptions that "you're meeting with the opposers". I've had that happen too.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I found out later from my mom that, "the saints wondered where we were", but none asked us about it.

I had the exact same experience. Complete disconnect, no questions about where we were except (as ONE friend relayed) they were all asking about us! After all the time together at homes, meals, "fellowship", meetings, "trainings", time together outside of church...

Most are willfully deceived - they already know why I left, because they've seen the same stuff. Its all a farce, a hoax, smoke and mirrors, a ...

As one person asked on this thread, "Did you expect them to?". I knew they wouldn't - that opens a discussion that could jeopardize their deception.... No room for that. No questions, tow the line....

Would I expect a group of true Christian believers (or an elder) to follow-up? The answer is so obvious it's kinda funny it was actually asked - and also reveals the heart of the one asking the question. Maybe they lost my number? haha

[JJ]

Thanks for sharing Part 1 of your experience, LifeGoesOn.

Your Part 1 experience is very similar to many others who have also left TLR after many years through the prompting of the Holy Spirit and common sense

I look forward to Part 2.