Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching

I am not trying to convince anybody, I am simply sharing my "personal testimony". In fact, Don't believe anything I say, check it out for yourselves and come to your own conclusions, this is "TOO" important to trust somebody else with your spiritual destiny.

By God's Mercy, I am a seeker and lover of the Truth (Christ, Jn 14:6) and the Bible is my hobby. I like to "study" the Bible, not just read it. For over 30 years I've been studying W. Lee's teaching or ministry (like a textbook): the "life studies", books, audio tapes, footnotes, elders' training, morning revival, outlines, crystallization messages, etc, etc.... I quit my job, went to the Full Time Training in Anaheim and migrated to Russia for many years, I zealously taught W. Lee's teaching for over 30 years thinking I had something special, unique, that others didn't know this teaching, and that W. Lee couldn't be wrong.

I finished reading all the conclusion messages and other books of W. Lee; since I needed to continue studying, I continued with the collected works of W. Nee. Interestingly, I started to see differences in between W. Nee's and W. Lee's ministry. Additionally, since we live in these "last years" or apocalyptic age, I started to study Eschatology or the study of the "end times" ( 33% of the Bible is Prophecy and I knew almost nothing!). It became even more interesting when I was studying Rev 12:1-5 about the great sign of the woman in heaven... W. Lee says that the woman is the church (which is wrong), and W. Nee says the woman is Israel (which is correct). These are two different interpretations, so I wanted to find out which interpretation was correct according to the whole Bible.

I started to research and see what other theologians had to say about this matter (interesting to see the hidden hand of the Lord guiding me in this process of reduction, supplying exactly what I needed), and as I started to educate myself I started to find out things that I had no clue about and I was ignorant about many things of the Bible. Then I realized I knew nothing of Israelology (83% of the Bible is related to Israel), I knew almost nothing of Prophecy (33% of the Bible is Prophecy) and what I knew, it was ALL wrong! Then before the Lord I asked myself, what else I do not know and what else I learned wrong? I got devastated before the Lord, "almost" my over 30 years of my Bible study meant nothing. I felt like a "steamroller" just passed over me! I had to almost start again from zero... the only good teaching left in me was "Soteriology" which is the matter of "Salvation". The other major parts of the Bible (Israelology, Eschatology and Ecclesiology) I knew almost nothing and the little I knew, it was wrong. At the same time my family and myself continued to meet with W. Lee's group. Through this experience I found that "many other" saints or believers in Christ from other christian groups, that don't belong to the W. Lee's local churches, have so much life, love, real truth (not allegories), Biblical riches, etc, etc,.... we found them because we simply started to pray and look around!!! This reminded me of Russia, the communist government prohibited their citizens to listen foreign radio stations and on TV they would show them Africa, their "huts" and their "starving children"; saying this is how it looks like the outside world of Russia. Then after communism collapsed, the citizens realized Russia was 50 years behind the rest of the world, so the Russian citizens started to leave Russia for a better life....

Eventually, I could see thanks to God's Mercy, that the Bible doesn’t mention anything about the “ground of oneness”. There is not even ONE verse in the whole Bible, unless you ALLEGORIZE like W. Lee’s teaching. The Bible mentions the ONENESS of the Spirit (Eph 4:3) which is the ONENESS of Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:4-13, especially vs.13). Also, the Bible mentions the “local churches” (Rev 2,3; 1:11), but NOT the “ground of oneness”. This realization set us free from W. Lee's local churches.

MAJOR ERRORS OF W. LEE'S TEACHING

Now I would like to point out the "Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching"

(Nothing against the “person”, simply pointing out the errors of the “teaching”)

Table of Content In Order Of Importance

· Replacement Theology

· Importance of Israelology (83% of the Bible is related to Israel)

· Wrong Eschatology (33% is Prophecy in the Bible)

· Wrong Ecclesiology (result of NOT knowing Israeology)

"Replacement Theology" - Due to the seriousness of this error, some students of the Bible call this error “teaching from the pit of hell”. Because this erroneous teaching makes God a liar. There are so many verses in the Old Testament (Jer 33; 16:14-16; 30:1-7, Ez 20:42; 34:13, Isa 14:1, 27:13, 43:5-7, 60:21; Amos 9:11-15) as well as in the New Testament (Rom 9,10,11), showing that God did not give up Israel even though Israel is in rebellion and did not recognize the day of their Messiah’s visitation (Mt 23:37-39). Also, Israel and the church are 2 totally different entities, Israel is not a type of the church. Israel is the wife of Jehovah (Isa 54:5) and the church is the virgin bride of Christ (2Cor 11:2). In Gen 3:15 we see the relationship in between the woman (Eve=Israel) and the seed (Christ), it is a relationship of “mother-Son” and NOT a relationship “Bridegroom-bride” (bride=church). Israel and the church have 2 different sources and destinies. W. Lee in his teaching makes this matter “dark grey”. At times he says God is still dealing with Israel, at MANY other times he applies what is for Israel, to the church; as if Israel doesn’t exist anymore (Ex. Jer 31:31-34, see Life Study). This vagueness is due to the lack of knowledge of Israelology, failing to differentiate Israel from the church.

"Israelology"- Without the proper understanding of Israelology, we will have “fundamental” mistakes with our understanding of the Bible, since the Bible is a Judeo-Christian book with 83% related to Israel. Jesus Himself was Jewish. We cannot ignore such a HUGE point in the Bible. If we ignore Israelology, we will mix erroneously Israel with the church, we will apply to the church what is for Israel (One of the many examples, The Great Tribulation: in Dan 9:24-27), we will apply to the church what is for Israel, we will not understand that Israel is earthly and the church is heavenly (Gen 12:3b; 22:17, Jer 33:22). Consecutively, we will not understand the Jewish cultural expressions and that lack of understanding of the Jewish cultural expressions, idioms, feasts, marriage celebration, etc., etc.,… will lead to allegorize or come up with some kind of private interpretation, so called “divine revelation”. By the way, allegorization is the license for “inventing doctrine”. Allegorization also leads to say that the Bible has some parts “more important” than others, so we don’t need to understand or pay attention to those so called “less important” parts. On the contrary Jesus Himself said in Mt 5: 17, 18 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished”. This means we have to take God’s Word seriously and ALL the Scripture (2Tim 3:16), not just a few verses or chapters or only the New Testament but the WHOLE BIBLE (Old and New Testaments). Again, Paul the apostle is telling us ALL Scripture, the one to whom God gave directly the revelation of the mystery (Eph 3:3,4). Ps 40:7 “Then I said, Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me”. The whole Bible (meaning Old and New Testaments) speaks about Christ, and ALL the Scripture is God’s breath; meaning Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus Himself when He was on the earth taught everything from the Old Testament, because the New Testament did not exist yet. Our safeguard to avoid falling into error, is to follow what the Bible (the 66 books) is telling us LITERALLY.

"Wrong Eschatology" – Because of the lack of understanding of Israelology, the understanding of eschatology is also wrong. In addition, the hermeneutics (method of interpretation) is erroneous due to allegorization of the Bible. Many Christian groups don’t want to study “prophecy” (like this one) because it requires a deeper and more thorough study of the whole Bible. It is this kind of study that puts under the test any kind of interpretation (Rev 19:10), you need (LITERALLY) the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27) and accurately handling the word of truth (2Tim 2:15); because 33% of the Bible is “Prophecy”. We cannot ignore 33% of the Bible and say: “we will just concentrate in the main parts of the Bible”, when Jesus Himself told us in Mt 5:17,18 that nothing is trivial (not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass), that we need to take the text seriously. Additionally, why is prophecy important? Because prophecy is a “blessing” (Rev 1:3) and the Lord uses prophecy to tell us the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10) and He wants to tell us ahead of time, what is coming up (Amos 3:7). In this way, we will not be “scared” of what is coming, but “prepared” because He loves us and we belong to Him. Often W. Lee says that the Bible does not mean what it says, it means something else (we need the intrinsic significance), allegorizing or spiritualizing the Bible. For example, one specific example (out of the many) of how W. Lee allegorizes the Bible: W. Lee says that the 10 commandments in Exo 20 is a “marriage contract”. It is a beautiful “allegory” made up by himself and it fits the verses, but the problem is that LITERALLY the Bible doesn’t say that. Therefore, based on that self-made allegory he builds another allegory then he ends up with something else that the Bible is NOT saying. This kind of hermeneutics (method of interpretation) is very “dangerous”, because you end up with something else, that the Bible is NOT saying. The Bible will tell you very specific if that is an allegory or not, like in Gal 4:24 “This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar”. But if we read the Bible plainly what it says, we will see that the Bible means what it says and it says what it means LITERALLY, without allegorizing or spiritualizing (Mt 5:17,18). Otherwise you come up with your private interpretations so called “divine revelation” that “nobody else knows”, because it is private.

Another big problem of allegorizing the Bible is with the matter of “the Ground of Oneness”. There is NOT a single verse in the Bible about “the Ground of Oneness”, unless you allegorize the Bible, making it fit to the verses and start applying to the church what the Bible is saying LITERALLY about Israel and Jerusalem which is Jewish and not the church. Through allegorization we can “freely” mix Israel and the church, the way we want and make a salad in between Israel and the church as a result of the lack of understanding of Israelology which is 83% of the Bible (see Israelology section above). Isreal and the church are 2 entities totally different, have different origins and different destinies; Israel is earthly and the church is heavenly (Gen 22:17). Plus the church is a hidden mystery (Eph 3:9), very different than Israel. Actually, if you read one of the many examples, Rom 11:11 says that God uses the gentiles (church) to make Israel jealous (to understand better read Rom 9, 10, 11).

"Wrong Ecclesiology" – As a result of the above (Replacement Theology, ignoring Isrelology, Wrong Eschatology); W. Lee’s ecclesiology is also wrong. There is so much emphasis on the “church” in W. Lee’s teaching, that he makes the church the center of everything in the Bible. W. Lee, due to his allegories (like the “ground of oneness”), says that those who meet in that group, ONLY they are the church because they are in the “ground of oneness”. There is NOT one single verse in the Bible proving this statement unless you allegorize the Bible. At this point it is important to be aware that “allegorization is the license for inventing doctrine”, through allegorization, anyone can say what they want by making it fit with the verses. We need to see what the Bible says LITERALY (Mt 5:17,18), paying attention to the grammar and CONTEXT (God is His own interpreter). Because ONLY the Bible is God’s Breath (2Tim 3:16). This means that ANYTHING that is men’s writing, IS NOT God’s Breath and we have to “be careful” with men’s writings or interpretations. Because of this, the Lord Jesus Himself gave us a command in Mt 24:4 “See to it that no one misleads you”. For us not to be deceived, we need the “whole counsel of God” (Act 20:27). The one who started allegorical interpretations was Origen, then Augustine continued allegorizing the Bible.

It is critical to rightly understand what the Bible says about the ONENESS of the Spirit (Eph 4:3) which is the ONENESS of Body of Christ (1Cor 12:4-13, especially vs.13), again LITERAL interpretation. According to the Bible, the ONENESS of the Body of Christ is NOT Witness Lee’s teaching or anybody else’s teaching. Therefore, the only foundation of the believers in Christ, is the Spirit and the Word of God. All the believers in Christ should have NO other requirements other than the Spirit and the Word of God and should feel perfectly comfortable with ONLY the Spirit and the Word of God. To insist with other things besides the Spirit and the Word of God, is divisive and not according to the Bible (1Cor 12:25) (Only 1 leader, 1 publication, only he knows what the Bible says, only he is right, only their practices are right and you have to follow W. Lee’s teaching and practices if you want to survive in their midst). Further, Rom 14 show us how we believers in Christ should receive one another, which is ACCORDING TO CHRIST, not according to W. Lee’s teaching or somebody else’s teaching. Rom 14:4 says: “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand”. Then Rom 15 continues with verses 4-7: “ 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. Verse 4 says that the Scriptures are for our instruction, not man’s teaching, but God’s teaching. Verse 5 says we have to have “the same mind” which is according to Christ Jesus and not according to W. Lee’s teaching. Verse 6 says “with one accord”, our one accord “again” is our Lord Jesus Christ, not W. Lee’s teaching. These verses go in a beautiful harmony with the earlier verses of Eph 4:3, 1Cor 12:4-13, Rom 14 and Rom 15:4-7; which are related to the church, the ONENESS of the Body of Christ and the receiving of one another.

Also, the Bible doesn’t mention anything about the “ground of oneness” there is no such a verse, unless you ALLEGORIZE like W. Lee’s teaching and start applying to the church, what is for Israel, making a salad (mixing) of Israel and the church. The Bible LITERALLY mentions the ONENESS of the Spirit (Eph 4:3) which is the ONENESS of Body of Christ (1Cor 12:4-13, especially vs.13). Also the Bible mentions the “local churches” (Rev 2,3; 1:11); but not the “ground of oneness”.

THE MATTER OF TAKING A "NAME"

In Rev 1:11, 2, and 3 you see the 7 "local" churches; 1 church, 1 city. Also, Paul when he writes to the churches says: ... to the church in Corinth (1Cor 1:2), ...to all who are in Rome (Rom 1:7), ...to the saints who are in Ephesus (Eph 1:1), etc, etc,.... No specific "names" besides the church in that city. Witness Lee and the local churches, they follow this practice in the cities where they are at. But their unhealthy and disturbing attitude (not Biblical) is this: in order to be accepted (survive) in their media, you have to fully agree with Witness Lee's teaching, agree that everything he teaches is "correct" and that he cannot be wrong, also you have to follow their "practices", if you read literature of someone else, you are off, they think they are the only ones right, etc, etc, etc,.....Because they follow the biblical way: the church in "......" whichever city they are at; they look down on ALL the other Christian groups with names saying that ONLY they are the "church" in that city since they don't have a name. I agree that they follow the biblical way of not taking a name, but with their unhealthy attitude (not Biblical) that I mentioned above, they make it "worse" than the other Christian groups with names. Ironic, because W. Lee himself teaches that we can fellowship with any believer as long as they are not heretical or sinful (The Speciality, Generality and Practicality of the Church Life), I guess that is ONLY in theory, but not in practice.

On the other hand, there are Christian groups with names (which is not biblical) that accept everyone who loves Jesus and His Word (Bible), they are O.K. if you read literature of someone else, they don't claim that they are the only ones right, they don't force you in their practices, they don't look down on others, etc, etc,.... . It seems to me, these Christian groups with names (which is not biblical), over all, are "healthier" spiritually than those "without name" (which is Biblical). It seems that the medicine is worse than the disease.

Also what makes someone part of the church (which is the Body of Christ Eph 1:22,23) is their regeneration or being born of the Spirit (Jn 3:3,5); not whether they "take a name" or "not". Those believers (born again) in Christian groups with names (which is not biblical), are part of the church and members of the Body of Christ. Eph 4:3 says ... being diligent to keep the ONENESS of the SPIRIT.... . The "real" oneness of the church is when we are one with the Holy Spirit, because that ONENESS belongs to the SPIRIT; whether we "take a name" or "not". And our oneness is NOT the matter of not taking a name. This truth (Eph 4:3) overrules or is stronger than “taking a name” or “not taking a name”.

It is difficult TODAY to find the "PERFECT" situation, in fact this is what the Bible shows us in Rev 2 and 3 with the 7 local churches due to the "degradation of the church". Every church has problems and the Lord is calling the INDIVIDUAL "overcomers" in EVERY church; even in the churches that He has nothing negative to say (Smyrna and Philadelphia). If a church thinks they don’t have a problem, the Lord says: …you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked (Rev 3:17).

Another critical error is to consider any man’s writing or commentary as “God’s Breath”. ONLY the Bible is God’s Breath (2Tim 3:16). Verse 16 is powerful: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness”. Notice this verse is talking about “GOD’S WORD” (all Scripture), and NOT about “men’s writings”. We can NOT treat men’s writings at the same level as the Bible. ONLY the Bible is inspired by God. That means: Life studies, morning revival, outlines, crystallizations, footnotes, etc, etc,… can never be treated at the same level of the Bible. We need to FOCUS and concentrate and read and study the Bible. This will solve our problem of Bible illiteracy. We read all kinds of Life studies, morning revival, outlines, crystallizations, footnotes, etc, etc and do NOT know what the Bible says. This practice leads to major deviations and wrong teachings from the Bible, like W. Lee's teaching.

CONCLUSION

If every time we have discrepancies in our understanding of the Word of God, instead of kicking people out and putting our "rules and conditions" (like W. Lee's local churches), if we would come together in prayer with the right spirit (Mk 9:38-40, Lk 9:49,50) and fellowship to try to understand "WHY" we have this discrepancy, the church on this earth would be in a totally different level of growth in Life. Just a little "dream".

The proper way to study the Bible and to avoid to be deceived by following the wrong teaching or interpretation is: First to have prayer and relationship with the Author (God) of the Bible (Jn 5:39,40), then we need to take notes as we read and study the Bible (God’s Word), lastly we can check with the commentaries of the theologians; NOT just ONE author, but 3 or 4. And try to understand why the interpretations differ. We need to do our homework and NOT blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11).

The Lord bless you richly with Himself.

Thank you.

A lover of Jesus and His Word.

HERE THERE ARE SOME "CULT LIKE" PRACTICES TO BE AWARE

What are some signs and practices of a cult?
by Matt Slick
There have been many serious studies on the dynamics of cults and behavior of people within those cults. Following is a representative list of characteristics common in cult groups. Not all cults hold to every item.
We have to be careful when assigning cult-like behavior to any group. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so to, cult-like behavior is subjective. Generally, it takes a trained person who can identify unhealthy patterns and teachings as compared to healthy ones and can then identify a cult. Furthermore, cult-like behavior is more commonly identified through excessive control, manipulation, and esoteric teaching of a group where the group's members are often isolated and indoctrinated into special teachings and practices.
Social aspects of cult-like behavior
For a group to be a cult in the social sense, many of the following characteristics would have to be present. For a group to be a cult in the doctrinal sense, essentials (in this case of the Christian faith) would have to be violated. Some of the characteristics are listed below.
1. Submission:
1. Complete, almost unquestioned trust in the leadership.
2. Leaders are often seen as prophets, apostles, or special individuals with unusual connections to God. This helps a person give themselves over psychologically to trusting someone else for their spiritual welfare.
3. Increased submission to the leadership is rewarded with additional responsibilities and/or roles, and/or praises, increasing the importance of the person within the group.
2. Exclusivity
1. Their group is the only true religious system, or one of the few true remnants of God's people.
3. Persecution complex
1. Us against them mentality. Therefore, when someone (inside or outside of the group) corrects the group in doctrine and/or behavior, it is interpreted as persecution, which then is interpreted as validation.
4. Control
1. Control of members' actions and thinking through repeated indoctrination and/or threats of loss of salvation, or a place to live, or receiving curses from God, etc.
5. Isolation
1. Minimizing contact of church members with those outside the group. This facilitates a further control over the thinking and practices of the members by the leadership.
6. Love Bombing
1. Showing great attention and love to a person in the group by others in the group, to help transfer emotional dependence to the group.
7. Special Knowledge
1. Instructions and/or knowledge are sometimes said to be received by a leader(s) from God. This leader then informs the members.
2. The Special Knowledge can be received through visions, dreams, or new interpretations of sacred scriptures such as the Bible.
8. Indoctrination
1. The teachings of the group are repeatedly drilled into the members, but the indoctrination usually occurs around Special Knowledge.
9. Salvation
1. Salvation from the judgment of God is maintained through association and/or submission with the group, its authority, and/or its Special Knowledge.
10. Group Think
1. The group's coherence is maintained by the observance to policies handed down from those in authority.
2. There is an internal enforcement of policies by members who reward "proper" behavior, and those who perform properly are rewarded with further inclusion and acceptance by the group.
11. Cognitive Dissonance
1. Avoidance of critical thinking and/or maintaining logically impossible beliefs and/or beliefs that are inconsistent with other beliefs held by the group.
2. Avoidance of and/or denial of any facts that might contradict the group's belief system.
12. Shunning
1. Those who do not keep in step with group policies are shunned and/or expelled.
13. Gender Roles
1. Control of gender roles and definitions.
2. Severe control of gender roles sometimes leads to sexual exploitation.
14. Appearance Standards
1. Often a common appearance is required and maintained. For instance, women might wear prairie dresses, and/or their hair in buns, and/or no makeup, and/or the men might all wear white short-sleeved shirts, and/or without beards, or all wear beards.

[countmeworthy]

Rarely can I read through a long lengthy post such as this one but what a most fascinating and even anointed post you wrote! I commend and applaud your hard work, studies and refreshing tone on this matter.

In 2005, the Holy Spirit revealed to me we were truly now living in the last days. I had very little understanding of what it all meant. I did a lot of seeking, praying, and studying.

This forum does not lend itself to discussing eschatology and many I am sure do not know how wrong Lee's views on Israel, the church and the Lord's return are. God is not the Author of confusion but Lee sure did a good job of doing exactly what God is not. He confused the saints for sure with his insane explanations.

Thank you so much for a well written, profound post needed for all to read. I am sure you have hidden gemstones in 'your belly'.

God bless you richly and continue to use you mightily in this forum.

[Drake]

Unreg,

You keep driving the point of applying the Bible LITERALLY throughout your post.

Do you believe we should apply Matthew 5:29-30 LITERALLY?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Unreg,

You keep driving the point of applying the Bible LITERALLY throughout your post.

Do you believe we should apply Matthew 5:29-30 LITERALLY?

Drake

For LSM leadership, I would say, Yes, and Amen.

Especially when I think of Phillip Lee.

[UntoHim]

Drake,
I believe the gist of his point was that Nee and Lee over-allegoricalized many portions of the Bible. But of course, you already knew that, you just wanted to stir the pot a little this morning...and at the same time totally ignore the main point(s) this person was making.

Care to actually address the heart of the matter?
-

[Drake]

-1 and in making his point he embraced an extreme position of taking the Bible literally all the time..or seems to. However, perhaps he has an explanation for it so let's give him a chance to explain before addressing many other errors in his teaching.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1 and in making his point he embraced an extreme position of taking the Bible literally all the time..or seems to. However, perhaps he has an explanation for it so let's give him a chance to explain before addressing many other errors in his teaching.

Drake

Wouldn't Matthew 5:29-30 be considered an idiom? He references "understanding of the Jewish cultural expressions, idioms, feasts, marriage celebration, etc., etc.,…"

While I may not agree with everything unreg writes, that doesn't make me appreciate his post any less. Thank you for the thoughtful post - we know that the Lord can use your experience with the LC of Witness Lee for his glory. I hope that this message can touch some "lurkers" and bring them closer to the truth.

I think about your thought, "I got devastated before the Lord, "almost" my over 30 years of my Bible study meant nothing. I felt like a "steamroller" just passed over me! I had to almost start again from zero..." almost daily as I pass the jehovah witness meeting hall on my way home from work. I hope that God may touch their hearts and bring them to His truth and love. I feel the same for many within the LC of Witness Lee. This post does a good job outlining some of your thoughts on why it is important to read scripture and process with other belivers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"Replacement Theology" - Due to the seriousness of this error, some students of the Bible call this error “teaching from the pit of hell”. Because this erroneous teaching makes God a liar. There are so many verses in the Old Testament (Jer 33; 16:14-16; 30:1-7, Ez 20:42; 34:13, Isa 14:1, 27:13, 43:5-7, 60:21; Amos 9:11-15) as well as in the New Testament (Rom 9,10,11), showing that God did not give up Israel even though Israel is in rebellion and did not recognize the day of their Messiah’s visitation (Mt 23:37-39). Also, Israel and the church are 2 totally different entities, Israel is not a type of the church. Israel is the wife of Jehovah (Isa 54:5) and the church is the virgin bride of Christ (2Cor 11:2). In Gen 3:15 we see the relationship in between the woman (Eve=Israel) and the seed (Christ), it is a relationship of “mother-Son” and NOT a relationship “Bridegroom-bride” (bride=church). Israel and the church have 2 different sources and destinies. W. Lee in his teaching makes this matter “dark grey”. At times he says God is still dealing with Israel, at MANY other times he applies what is for Israel, to the church; as if Israel doesn’t exist anymore (Ex. Jer 31:31-34, see Life Study). This vagueness is due to the lack of knowledge of Israelology, failing to differentiate Israel from the church.

Does the book of Ephesians refer to the church as the temple of God as WL taught or is that an error?

Also, is Israel the Army of God or does Ephesians refer to the church as God's warrior?

Do you agree with WL that Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the church?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Does the book of Ephesians refer to the church as the temple of God as WL taught or is that an error?

Also, is Israel the Army of God or does Ephesians refer to the church as God's warrior?

Do you agree with WL that Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the church?

Question: Does the book of Ephesians refer to the church as the temple of God as WL taught or is that an error?

Also, is Israel the Army of God or does Ephesians refer to the church as God's warrior?

Do you agree with WL that Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the church?

Answer: Eph 2:21, 22. 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

These 2 verses of Eph 2, show that the church is the temple of God. There are more verses that show this point, but not from Ephesians, from: 1Cor 3:16; 6:19
Looking throughout the Old Testament (a few examples: Josh5:13-15, 1Sam17:26, 2Chron 25:7) we see that Israel is God’s army, but notice that Israel’s situation changes a lot. Sometimes Jehovah is fighting for Israel other times Israel is fighting by themselves…. And looking at the big picture, even though Israel is in a rebellious situation, God did not give them up (Rom 9,10,11), God will deal with Israel through the Great Tribulation (Dan 9:24-27).

Reading Eph 6:12-18. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; 16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God .
18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
The book of Ephesians is about the church, and the verses from above show that the church also is God’s army.

It is important to notice, when the Bible speaks about Israel, it is related to “physical and earthly” things, even during the Millennium Jesus will reign the whole earth through Israel or the house of Jacob (Lk 1:32,33 ) and when the Bible speaks about the church, it is related to “spiritual and heavenly” things (Eph 1:3, 20; 2:6; 6:12).

Related to Adam and Eve, Rom 5:14 says: 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. This verse shows that Adam is a type of Christ. Then Paul in Eph 5:31,32. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Here in vs. 31, Paul is quoting from Gen 2:24, showing that Eve is a type of the church. This is the great mystery.

At the same time, we need to realize what is happening in Gen 3:15. 15And I will put enmity Between you (Satan, see vs.14) and the woman (Eve, here Eve is Israel) , And between your seed (Satan’s seed, which is the Dragon) and her (Eve, who is Israel, Rev 12:2,5) seed (Jesus); He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” In this verse, Eve is a type of Israel because this is a relationship between the woman (Eve) and the seed (Jesus), which is a “mother-Son” relationship and NOT a “Bridegroom-bride” relationship. Israel gave birth to Jesus.

Throughout the Old Testament, Israel is the “WIFE of Jehovah” (Isa 54:5, 1; 62:4, Jer 31:32). While in the New Testament, the church is the “VIRGIN bride of Christ” (2Cor 11:2; Mt 25:1-10)

In Gen 3:15. 15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

The term “her seed” violates the “biological” law because women don’t have seed, but men. This prophecy of Gen 3:15, was fulfilled in Lk 1:31, 34,35. 31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 34Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

At the same time, we need to realize what is happening in Gen 3:15. 15And I will put enmity Between you (Satan, see vs.14) and the woman (Eve, here Eve is Israel) , And between your seed (Satan’s seed, which is the Dragon) and her (Eve, who is Israel, Rev 12:2,5) seed (Jesus); He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” In this verse, Eve is a type of Israel because this is a relationship between the woman (Eve) and the seed (Jesus), which is a “mother-Son” relationship and NOT a “Bridegroom-bride” relationship. Israel gave birth to Jesus.

Two comments (related to that in bold).

Satan's seed, is the Dragon, which is Satan. The Dragon is Satan.

Eve is a type for the church. See Eph. 5:23-26 which describes the husband-wife relationship.

For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Rev 12:2,5 speaks of the man-child, or the stronger part of the church.

That the seed of the woman is Christ and the church, or God's people

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
But the fact that this child is Christ must not cause us to limit the meaning of the vision to the efforts of the evil one to destroy the infant Jesus; for it is also the Christ in the Church which the wicked one hates: and wherever Christ dwells in any heart by faith, and wherever the preachers of the gospel in earnest travail for their Master, seek to lift up Christ, there will the foe be found, like the fowls of the air, ready to carry away the good seed.

Barne's notes on the bible:
And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Revelation 12:2.
Who was to rule all nations - That is, according to this view, the church thus represented was destined to reign in all the earth, or all the earth was to become subject to its laws. Compare the notes on Daniel 7:13-14.

Your view is not considering that the purpose of Revelation is to encourage the persecuted Church. For this reason, we should consider that the Church is destined to rule and reign with Christ, and this is the most likely meaning of the prophesy. If we restrict the interpretation only to Jesus and not to the church, the body of Christ, we miss out on the intended view. Thus ,Satan attempting to kill the man-child is not merely Satan trying to kill the infant Jesus, but trying to destroy the church worldwide. If we restrict the interpretation only to Jesus or Israel we miss out on the intended meaning.

The Prophet John was not having a vision of old testament Israel and the 12 tribes ruling over the nations, but of the Church, or the sum total of all God's believers, past and present.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Two comments (related to that in bold).
Satan's seed, is the Dragon, which is Satan. The Dragon is Satan.
Eve is a type for the church. See Eph. 5:23-26 which describes the husband-wife relationship.
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Rev 12:2,5 speaks of the man-child, or the stronger part of the church.
That the seed of the woman is Christ and the church, or God's people

Answer: Satan’s seed is the Red Dragon, the coming world leader and the false prophet in Rev 12:3,…

In Rev 12:1-5. 1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The woman in Rev 12:1-5, is Israel. If you say that this woman is the church, you have a BIG problem, because the church is a VIRGIN BRIDE (2Cor 11:2) and this woman in Rev. is “pregnant”. Rev 12, is a “summary of Israel” that started in Gen 3:15, where we see the term: “her seed” or “seed of the woman”, meaning the woman has seed or gives birth. A “mother-Son” relationship and NOT a “Bridegroom-bride” relationship, because Israel gives birth to the child who is Jesus which is confirmed in Rev 12: 2,5 (read verses). The male child in verse 5, is Jesus and NOT “the stronger part of the church” which is W. Lee’s wrong interpretation.

Why is W. Lee’s interpretation wrong? Because as I explained in detail in my original post, W. Lee’s teaching does NOT have Israelology in his teaching (83% of the Bible is related to Israel), as a result of that, his Eschatology (33% is Prophecy in the Bible) is wrong and as a result of that, his Ecclesiology (result of NOT knowing Israeology) is also wrong. When you lack understanding or completely ignore, Israelology you will do exactly what W. Lee did in his teaching: it does NOT differentiate Israel from the church, it applies what is for Israel to the church (read his Life Studies, ex.Jer 31:31), making a big salad with Israel and the church. Additionally, he starts to “freely” allegorize the Scriptures as he wishes coming up with self- made doctrine that “ONLY” he knows, because it is his private interpretation. One example of the many, of his self-made doctrines; is “the ground of oneness” (there is not even ONE verse in the Bible showing this point), or Boiling a young goat in the mother’s milk (Exo 23:19; 34:26; Deut 14:21), or eating poisonous gourds (2King 4:38-41) and I can go on and on and on…. With all the allegories made up by himself without paying attention to the “fundamental points” that I mentioned already at the very beginning of my post.

If you can NOT see or understand what I am explaining to you about the “Major errors of W. Lee’s teaching: Replacement Theology, absence of Israelology (83% of the Bible is related to Israel), wrong Eschatology (33% is Prophecy in the Bible), Wrong Ecclesiology (result of NOT knowing Israeology); I can NOT do anything else for you, except to pray for you, that the Lord would open your right understanding of the Scriptures. I know, it is not easy, but also it is possible with the Lord (Mt 19:26). I don’t want to convince anybody, everyone should do their homework and come to their own conclusions.

[Boxjobox]

I would say the chief major error in his teaching was the "the processed triune God". Through bits and pieces of verses, he created a god of the local church, which was not the God of our Lord Jesus. One would think, if the truth was "the processed triune God", that Jesus and the apostles, and writers of the NT would have been preaching and teaching this, and using the same vocabulary as WL to convey this marvelous wonder to the Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. WL's ability to create messages through the use of verse fragments was amazing, and created a dazzling creed that captured many (and sold a lot of material)- what was wrong with us, that no one stood up and said " this is not what I read in my Bible"?

[countmeworthy]

In 2005, the Holy Spirit Who is the Person of the Godhead WHO reveals JESUS, THE TRUTH and reveals the FATHER revealed to me we were truly now living in the last days.

I began doing my homework and searching the scriptures prayerfully for understanding. I did not know the difference between the rapture and the second coming of Christ and neither could I find clarity in the RcV that I had!!!

Little by little I learned that even though Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are considered NT and the Jews do not read the gospels, those books are mainly written TO THE JEWS. Jesus came for the JEWS FIRST.

The NT does not truly begin until the death of Jesus and it is stated quite clearly in Hebrews 9.
For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a Testament is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first testament was not inaugurated without blood.

But most of the time, we believers think that everything in the gospel applies to us. Grant it, in some ways it does but when Jesus is talking to His disciples about His return, He is not referring to the Bride. The church is not really born until the Holy Spirit descended upon the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost, known as the Feast of Weeks or Shavout in Exodus 23, Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28.

The Bride is caught up before Jesus reveals Himself to the Jews as their Messiah at the Great Tribulation and the battle of Armageddon. Matthew 24 refers to the Tribulation that Israel and the non believers will undergo AFTER the Bride is caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air in the twinkling of an eye.

I totally concur Revelation 12 is Israel and the Manchild is Jesus, their Messiah. The church is never MALE. The church is always female. Therefore the manchild cannot be the stronger part of the church! God never refers to any part of the church as male!

And btw.. there is going to be a great sign in the heavens in the constellation of Virgo on Sept 23rd. Look it up. It is a sign for Israel.

Blessings

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Answer: Satan’s seed is the Red Dragon, the coming world leader and the false prophet in Rev 12:3,…

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Does the book of Ephesians refer to the church as the temple of God as WL taught or is that an error?

Actually, Ephesians refers to the body of Christ as "growing into" the temple of God.

So "yes and no." It does — not as a final product, but as a work in progress. It is not simply a "done deal."

And I don't really care what Lee taught about it.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

We need to do our homework and NOT blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11).

The thing is every person with a bible can claim to be a Berean yet each have different interpretations. How can this be if everyone supposedly has the one Spirit who teaches all things?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The thing is every person with a bible can claim to be a Berean yet each have different interpretations. How can this be if everyone supposedly has the one Spirit who teaches all things?

It's real simple.

A Berean compares everything with actual scripture.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's real simple.

A Berean compares everything with actual scripture.

Well I'd like to question that thinking because it seems to me to be an untested theory that Bereans are those who compare everything with scripture. So I'd like to appeal to the title of being "noble" by doing some searching and testing of my own and asking "is it really so?"

Firstly, if we look into history, Bereans were Jews that held no concept of "sola scriptura". It's a matter of fact that Jews in general don't use "sola scriptura" so the idea that a Berean is one who searches scripture and scripture alone for their doctrine as per stock standard American evangelical protestantism is looking unlikely.

Concerning the use of Scripture, in Acts 17 both the Thessalonian Jews and the Berean Jews discussed or debated the Scripture with Paul. So actually searching and comparing to scripture is not the reason Bereans were called noble. Any serious Jew would have done that. If the Bereans were noble just because they used Scripture, then the Thessalonians would be called noble as well!

The key difference between the Bereans from the Thessalonians was their attitude towards the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought. They were called noble because the Bereans accepted the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought whereas the Thessalonians rejected the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought. What differentiated the two groups was their attitude and reception of Paul's rather revolutionary message.

Remember that Paul would not have been recognized as a source of divine inspiration and the scripture that they had would have been their Old Testament, not the New Testament.

So actually to be a noble Berean is to accept the new extra-biblical revelation that comes from God. It was to accept Paul's message such that salvation comes through Christ, and that circumcision is no longer necessary. If the Bereans had stuck to their literal interpretation of scripture, they would have pointed to their Law and everlasting covenant regarding circumcision etc and rejected Paul outright. They might have said "Paul, the Scripture says circumcision is an everlasting covenant, therefore the message you bring must be from Satan". This is what the Thessalonians did, and what many Jews do today. This is how the Pharisees treated Christ - being firmly rooted to their literal interpretation of their Old Testament. Not being open to new revelation is the main reason the Thessalonian Jews rejected Paul, just as the Pharisees had rejected Christ. Not because the Thessalonian Jews did not use Scripture and the Bereans did.

In summary, the idea that Bereans are those who use scripture alone as their authority is inaccurate, given that the Bereans were Jews who did not believe in the absolute and sole authority of Scripture (they held to oral traditions etc). It was their willingness to accept new revelation from God via Paul that made them truly noble Bereans.

So those who say they are Bereans because they hold to a literal interpretation of scripture are possibly more like the Thessalonian Jews than the true Bereans who listened to the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought to them.

So actually to be a noble Berean is to accept the new extra-biblical revelation that comes from God. It was to accept Paul's message such that salvation comes through Christ, and that circumcision is no longer necessary. If the Bereans had stuck to their literal interpretation of scripture, they would have pointed to their Law and everlasting covenant regarding circumcision etc and rejected Paul outright. They might have said "Paul, the Scripture says circumcision is an everlasting covenant, therefore the message you bring must be from Satan". This is what the Thessalonians did, and what many Jews do today. This is how the Pharisees treated Christ - being firmly rooted to their literal interpretation of their Old Testament. Not being open to new revelation is the main reason the Thessalonian Jews rejected Paul, just as the Pharisees had rejected Christ. Not because the Thessalonian Jews did not use Scripture and the Bereans did.

In summary, the idea that Bereans are those who use scripture alone as their authority is inaccurate, given that the Bereans were Jews who did not believe in the absolute and sole authority of Scripture (they held to oral traditions etc). It was their willingness to accept new revelation from God via Paul that made them truly noble Bereans.

So those who say they are Bereans because they hold to a literal interpretation of scripture are possibly more like the Thessalonian Jews than the true Bereans who listened to the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought to them.[/QUOTE]


Answer: Acts 17:10, 11. 10The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

If you read these verses, they are self explanatory. Verse 11, says : these (the Bereans) were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for (explains WHY) they received the word with great eagerness, EXAMINING the Scriptures daily TO SEE WHETHER THESE THINGS WERE SO.

At this point I would like to share with you a “golden rule of interpretation” a dear brother said: “When plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up in nonsense”.

To be Bereans, is what the verse says and it means. Meaning examining the Scriptures (read verses). For the Bereans was to examine the Old Testament because the New Testament didn’t exist. If you study the Old Testament appropriately, you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that the Old Testament was talking about. There are over 1800 prophesies that LITERALLY were fulfilled with Jesus. Jesus Himself told this point to the two on the road to Emmaus (Lk 24:27). 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. Jesus Himself was a Berean in the sense of explaining the Scriptures about Himself!!!

Few examples of over 1800 prophesies fulfilled LITERALLY:

Born of a virgin: Gen 3:15; Isa 7:14. Jesus to be of David’s family: 2Sam7:12. Born on Bethlehem: Micha 5:2. Sojourn in Egypt: Hose 11:1. Would live in Galilee: Isa 9:1,2. Announced by a herald: Isa 40:3-5, Mal 3:1; 4:5. Massacre of Bethlehem’s children: Gen 35:19,20; Jer 31:15. Would include the gentiles: Isa 42:1-4. Healing ministry: Isa 53:4. Teach through parables: Isa 6:9,10; Psa 78:2. Rejected by rulers: Psa 69:4; 118:22; Isa 6:10; 29:13. Entry into Jerusalem: Zech 9:9, Psa 118:26; etc.,etc., etc.,………

I pointed this matter in my original post. Again, I would like to repeat for you: By the way, allegorization is the license for “inventing doctrine”. Allegorization also leads to say that the Bible has some parts “more important” than others, so we don’t need to understand or pay attention to those so called “less important” parts. On the contrary Jesus Himself said in Mt 5: 17, 18 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished”. This means we have to take God’s Word seriously and ALL the Scripture (2Tim 3:16), not just a few verses or chapters or only the New Testament but the WHOLE BIBLE (Old and New Testaments). Again, Paul the apostle is telling us ALL Scripture, the one to whom God gave directly the revelation of the mystery (Eph 3:3,4). Ps 40:7 “Then I said, Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me”. The whole Bible (meaning Old and New Testaments) speaks about Christ, and ALL the Scripture is God’s breath; meaning Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus Himself when He was on the earth taught everything from the Old Testament, because the New Testament did not exist yet. Our safeguard to avoid falling into error, is to follow what the Bible (the 66 books) is telling us LITERALLY.

One specific example (out of the many) of how W. Lee allegorizes the Bible: W. Lee says that the 10 commandments in Exo 20 is a “marriage contract”. It is a beautiful “allegory” made up by himself and it fits the verses, but the problem is that LITERALLY the Bible doesn’t say that. Therefore, based on that self-made allegory he builds another allegory then he ends up with something else that the Bible is NOT saying. This kind of hermeneutics (method of interpretation) is very “dangerous”, because you end up with something else, that the Bible is NOT saying. The Bible will tell you very specific if that is an allegory or not, like in Gal 4:24 “This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar”. But if we read the Bible plainly what it says, we will see that the Bible means what it says and says what it means LITERALLY except when the Bible tells us otherwise, without allegorizing or spiritualizing (Mt 5:17,18). Otherwise you come up with your private interpretations so called “divine revelation” that “nobody else knows”, because it is private.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The key difference between the Bereans from the Thessalonians was their attitude towards the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought. They were called noble because the Bereans accepted the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought whereas the Thessalonians rejected the extra-biblical revelation that Paul brought. What differentiated the two groups was their attitude and reception of Paul's rather revolutionary message.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

At this point I would like to share with you a “golden rule of interpretation” a dear brother said: “When plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up in nonsense”.

Well said, Unregistered. So well said.

Evangelical never ceases to amaze me how he can convince himself that basically up is down and down is up.

What caused the unbelieving Thessalonians, i.e. Jews at the Synagogue who heard Paul on three successive Sabbaths, to reject the Gospel was not their attitude towards "extra-biblical revelation," but as Luke, the eye-witness writer of the Acts tells us, "they were jealous," (Acts 17.1-9) they rejected the Messiah Jesus Christ, and claimed allegiance to Caesar. They behaved exactly as those who crucified Jesus years prior in Jerusalem. Are you also claiming then, that the Pharisees and scribes rejected the "extra-biblical revelation" package that Jesus also brought to the nation of Israel?

Did someone say something about "nonsense?"

The Bereans, on the other hand, did not receive "extra-biblical revelation" from Apostle Paul. They heard the same message as those in Thessalonica who believed, i.e. Paul showed them from their own scriptures that the "Christ (the promised Messiah) must suffer and rise from among the dead." (Acts 17.2-3, 10-13)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well said, Unregistered. So well said.

Evangelical never ceases to amaze me how he can convince himself that basically up is down and down is up.

What caused the unbelieving Thessalonians, i.e. Jews at the Synagogue who heard Paul on three successive Sabbaths, to reject the Gospel was not their attitude towards "extra-biblical revelation," but as Luke, the eye-witness writer of the Acts tells us' "they were jealous," (Acts 17.1-9) they rejected the Messiah Jesus Christ, and claimed allegiance to Caesar. They behaved exactly as those who crucified Jesus years prior in Jerusalem. Are you also claiming then, that the Pharisees and scribes rejected the "extra-biblical revelation" package that Jesus also brought to the nation of Israel?

Did someone say something about "nonsense?"

The Bereans, on the other hand, did not receive "extra-biblical revelation" from Apostle Paul. They heard the same message as those in Thessalonica who believed, i.e. Paul showed them from their own scriptures that the "Christ (the promised Messiah) must suffer and rise from among the dead." (Acts 17.2-3, 10-13)

The interpretation Paul presented would have been extra biblical for them.

The example of the Bereans is used by those who believe in sola scriptura. Implying that those who did not receive the message did not search the scriptures.

This is flawed for two basic reasons:
One is the Bereans, being Jews, were not sola scriptura believers.

The second is that those who did not receive the message would have used the Scripture also. Even if their rejection was due to jealousy or some other reason, it doesn't negate the fact that they too searched the Scriptures, like the Bereans.

The Bereans are not an example of those who searched the scripture alone versus those who didn't. That is not the point of the story. The point is they received the message because they were more noble. The point is not that they were more noble because they believed in sola scriptura.

[Boxjobox]

Unregistered said "is critical to rightly understand what the Bible says about the ONENESS of the Spirit (Eph 4:3) which is the ONENESS of Body of Christ (1Cor 12:4-13, especially vs.13), again LITERAL interpretation. According to the Bible, the ONENESS of the Body of Christ is NOT Witness Lee’s teaching or anybody else’s teaching. Therefore, the only foundation of the believers in Christ, is the Spirit and the Word of God. All the believers in Christ should have NO other requirements other than the Spirit and the Word of God and should feel perfectly comfortable with ONLY the Spirit and the Word of God. To insist with other things besides the Spirit and the Word of God, is divisive and not according to the Bible"

Hi Unregistered, read your initial post with great interest, and took a while of consideration before I responded. This is not the time of Israel, but it is the time of the church. If I did the math correctly, 30 years of WL would put you at about 1985. Many of us, I suspect, who were "in the church" in years prior to 1985, have a longing for the "church life" that existed then. Meeting together as believers without taking another name, not under a pastoral system, praying, singing, speaking to one another, eating together at each other's houses, hearing messages from some who labored in the word, gospel meeting, love feasts, sharing verses, experiences, etc. We were meeting as the church and were glad of it. Slowly, Living Stream began heavily influencing every aspect. A good indicator was, at least where I was meeting, the book store used to carry many authors, then it went to W Née and WL, then WL only. At some point, the church in my locality, and probable everywhere had to declare "oneness with LSM", and every aspect of the "church life" was sold out to LSM. If you began in '85 or so, thing were in full speed LSM, and the sweetness of meeting simply as the church was gone.
I suspect many of us who experienced this have a hard time getting involved with Christian groups that exist today- have a hard time committing to such groups, because in the back of our minds, we remember the times when we met, the best we knew how, according to the scripture. The idea of the local church is not WL, the way of fellowship we had then was not WL's. BUT, WL's ministers was a big part of it, that ended up consuming and corrupting the simplicity and sweetness we had. Is is as if the church was robbed from us, similar to, the the carrying away of Israel to Babylon (little allegory there). How can we sing the Lords songs in a strange land?
I suspect, that if those who have control of the "local churches" were to declare tomorrow that they see the error of their ways, and go back to building the walls of Jerusalem---I mean return to a common bible, drop the LSM, let the saints, the word and the Spirit have free course, that most of us would return rejoicing.
Will that happen? Probably not, so in the mean time, the church (all the Christians, and the blessing of oneness) suffers due to lack of vision and practice.

Concerning oneness, there is more to it in what Paul wrote the saints in Ephesus- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father, than just the word and the Spirit. I think you short change the church and the Word and the major importance of the Church in this age by dismissing the church as degraded. The proper local church is not a WL thing but God's habitation.

[Drake]

Jesus Lover,

Your posts are arduous and cumbersome. Suggest you shorten and focus them if you desire greater dialogue.

JESUSLOVER "
I would like to point out a few wrong allegories that W. Lee makes in his teaching:

*Boiling a young goat in the mother’s milk (Exo 23:19; 34:26; Deut 14:21) 19“You shall bring the choice first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. “You are not to boil a young goat in the milk of its mother”.

W. Lee’s explanation in his Life Study is: “Now we come to the last condition, a condition that may seem very strange: “You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk” (v. 26b). You may be surprised at the significance of the requirement not to boil a kid in its mother’s milk. This requirement indicates or typifies that we should not seethe young believers with the milk of the word; that is, we should not “boil” them with the word of life that is for nourishment (1 Pet. 2:2).

In ancient times some people probably did have the practice of boiling a kid in its mother’s milk. This may have been regarded as a delicious dish. As we have indicated, we should not use the milk of the word to seethe young believers. This is to use the milk of the word, which is for life- nourishment, to kill the young ones. The point here is that the milk of the Word of God is for nourishment”(1Pet 2:2; Heb 5:12, 13; 1Cor 3:2).

W. Lee in his explanation above gives his “free allegory” made up by himself, additionally he gives references (1Pet 2:2; Heb 5:12, 13; 1Cor 3:2) that have NOTHING to do with the subject verses (Exo 23:19; 34:26; Deut 14:21), except ALL these verses have the word “milk” in common.

The “correct” Biblical way to understand “Boiling a young goat in the mother’s milk” is that it refers to the superstitious custom of the Canaanites at harvest time in which a young goat was boiled in its mother’s milk as a charm to increase the fruitfulness of their crops.

God didn’t want His people copying the pagan fertility rituals instead of trusting Him to bless their harvest. This commandment is the basis for the present Jewish custom of not mixing milk products with meat.

This is according to Israelology, Jewish culture, because the Bible is a Judeo-Christian book.

Another example:

*Eating poisonous gourds (2King 4:38-41)"

If Witness Lee's teachings about not boiling a kid in its mother’s milk and avoiding poisonous gourds are MAJOR ERRORS.... well then, CALL OUT THE NATIONAL GUARD. .. or NATIONAL GOURD as the case may be.

Here is why your assertions about them being erroneous is unfounded. They are analogies, not free allegories as you claim. I am not aware of any allegories that Witness Lee created. Allegories are Bunyon's Pilgrims Progress, C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, or Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. An allegory does allow a lot of latitude to fit in the storyline. I have read all the allegories above and they are useful but not necessarily theologically accurate in a strict literal sense.

Witness Lee's messages are rife with analogies and that is why they are called "Life-Studies". They are theologically accurate but not intended to be strict literal interpretation in every sense of the word. Yet, Brother Lees teaching on topics such as God's plan with Israel do follow the structure of Daniels 70 weeks. You apparently have missed the major point of the Life-studies though you read them all cover to cover.

Here is a life analogy I might make up if I were so inspired: Goliath was a big ugly guy who wanted to kill people, God's people to be precise. Yet, God used the unlikeliest of all to bring the big guy down, a boy with some stones. Maybe there is a Goliath in your life, don't be afraid, instead look for God to send the unlikeliest of all to slay that giant.

That is the literary asset called analogy and it is a valid and useful way to apply scripture as a help, an interpretation, a teaching, a correction, for instruction in righteousness and encouragement in life. All scripture, Old Testament and New, may be applied that way.

Drake