UPDATE 6 months later. Meeting with an "elder"...

[OGOP]

Hey y'all.

My introduction thread is is titled "My situation with the LC" if you want to read it for some reference, but I'm going to quickly summarize it anyways.

So here's my story briefly.
-Born and raised into non-religious home
-Went off to college, fell head over heels in love with a girl who I, still do this day, intend to marry
-She has been born and raised in The Lords Recovery/LCM
-After a year of attending the "meetings" I come across this site, among other testimonies of the nature of the LCM.
-It finally "clicks" with me, that the things I was experiencing were not an isolated case, and are a result of the church itself, not just the brothers + sisters in my specific church. (arranged marriages, taking advantage of troubled people, full time training, etc.)
-I decide I want to find a denomination I feel comfortable to grow in Christ.

And so that is when I posted to the forum seeking advice.

Here's the update:

I ended up approaching her and telling her my feelings about the church. I tried to be as sensitive as possible about the subject. I censored my language very strongly to avoid hurting her.
This led to many nights of crying and fighting.
Eventually she came around and said she would agree to start splitting time between the local church and a church of my choosing.

The Saturday before the first Sunday it was my turn to take her to church, I don't know if she gets cold feet, too nervous, or if one of the brothers or sisters talked to her but she backs out and says she can't do it. That the local church is THE ONLY real church, the ONLY place she will feel comfortable, etc.

So that leads to more fighting and arguments between us, but in the end we would always make up.

This spring I actually managed to drastically reduce the number of meetings we went to, by planning things for us to do during the meeting times. Does that make me a bad person?

So here is where we stand now: She understands exactly where I stand in regards to my feelings on the church. She chalks it up as problems I have with Christ and because I am a relatively new Christian. She can't differentiate between a denomination I am criticizing and criticizing Christ. It's sad, but I do feel like I am slowly making progress in leaving the church WITH her.
She has agreed that she will follow me to a church I feel comfortable once we are married, ON THE CONDITION that I first have a meeting with a church elder and that I give these next few months my BEST TRY and full attention to be active and engaged in "the church life"

So here's my question for y'all:
1) What questions would you/should I ask the brother when I do have a meeting with him 1-on-1? So far I am planning to address my concerns regarding: Full time training, witness lee, living stream ministry scandals, controlling nature of the "elders"
If you have advice on how to word them that would be a huge help. For example I know the full time training gives me the cult vibe, but what should I question about it specifically. I can't just say 'whats sup with all the trainings, thats a softball question and I'm just going to get the same old talking points.
2) How can I get involved it the church life and make it seems genuine without falling into it. Not sure if I worded that correctly but essentially I am scared that if I get too involved that its going to be even harder to leave. Any advice on "faking it"in the LC lol? Im sure some of y'all have been here before.

God Bless
OGOP

[Drake]

Just be honest.

Tell the elder what you really think. Don't deceive with crafty words and tricks to keep her out of meetings.

If not, and you marry under false premises, then much unnecessary pain awaits her, you, and those around you.

Drake

[OGOP]

Don't deceive with crafty words and tricks to keep her out of meetings

I wouldn't think of it like that. It's just that I think that leaving the church is in the best interest of our spiritual future and future relationship.
And to be honest, the Local church has a very controlling grip on ones social life. If attending less meetings helps her understand life does EXIST outside the church life, then I think thats something I want to show her

[OGOP]

Tell the elder what you really think

Oh I plan to.

But I'm also turning to the forum for suggestions. Anything y'all wish you could've asked if you were in my position. The brother Im planning to speak with is very high up in the LC "ranks".

[Drake]

Originally Posted by OGOP

Oh I plan to.

But I'm also turning to the forum for suggestions. Anything y'all wish you could've asked if you were in my position. The brother Im planning to speak with is very high up in the LC "ranks".

You said "How can I get involved it the church life and make it seems genuine without falling into it" and "Any advice on "faking it"in the LC lol? "

OGOP, members of this forum and I do not see eye to eye on many things. However, I believe your request of them is completely inappropriate and insulting. Where did you get the impression that they would be willing to collude with you in deception?

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

OGOP, members of this forum and I do not see eye to eye on many things. However, I believe your request of them is completely inappropriate and insulting. Where did you get the impression that they would be willing to collude with you in deception?

Drake

I agree with Drake, but probably would have worded it differently.

I think the most important thing to focus on right now is your relationship with your Creator made possible through the blood of Jesus.

I appreciate that you were honest with your girlfriend to the point where she knows "exactly where you stand". But it sounds like you're looking to attempt to deceive her by saying that you hope to "make it seems genuine without falling into it". I know you qualified that statement in a later post, but this mentality is not fair to anyone. It sounds like you've experienced everything you need to understand the reality of the LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OGOP

So here's my question for y'all:
1) What questions would you/should I ask the brother when I do have a meeting with him 1-on-1? So far I am planning to address my concerns regarding: Full time training, witness lee, living stream ministry scandals, controlling nature of the "elders."

If you have advice on how to word them that would be a huge help. For example I know the full time training gives me the cult vibe, but what should I question about it specifically. I can't just say 'whats sup with all the trainings, thats a softball question and I'm just going to get the same old talking points.

2) How can I get involved it the church life and make it seems genuine without falling into it. Not sure if I worded that correctly but essentially I am scared that if I get too involved that its going to be even harder to leave. Any advice on "faking it"in the LC lol? Im sure some of y'all have been here before.

God Bless
OGOP

OGOP, you are in a difficult place since she obviously was hopeful that your future together would be in the context of the LC. Since she was raised there, all her friends and family are there, and LC'ers are not real good at making friends with outsiders. Does she plan to attend the full time training (FTT)? If so, that would be even a more serious concern, since she would have to "put an end to you."

You need to address what bothers you, and not what bothers others, if possible. You mentioned all the trainings. That's a real concern. Most local elders only carry out the plans of LSM, and have little liberty to do else. If the elders seem controlling to you, that's because they also are being controlled by others from LSM. Very little liberty of the Spirit exists there, though you may hear endless messages to the contrary. LSM is not the kind of ministry that the elders can pick and choose what meets the needs of their people. LSMers really feel that every LC member is their fruit, and belongs to them, with all their offerings.

I do know some LC's that have a wholesome family environment and shepherding, but these churches have strong leaders who refuse to be LSMbots. They allow their young people to attend the FTT, but don't push it for everyone. Unfortunately, it's real difficult to discuss these topics with elders. They live a contradiction. They don't really practice what they believe, hence their answers may be acceptable to you in word, but not in reality.

For me personally after 30 years in the LC's, I was very bothered that all three of my elders were employees of headquarters, and they always placed the ministry work before the brothers and sisters in the LC. I spoke my heart's concerns for the church, and they demanded that I apologize to all the other deacons. Privately, they told me they have the "right" to fellowship with anyone they choose, to which I responded, "sure you do, but not if you are elders, since your primary responsibility is the care for the saints." They refused to yield, and I knew it was time to leave.

[aron]

4 questions:

1. Why was the LC essentially formed by women (Margaret Barber, Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Mary McDonald [3 parts of man], Jessie Penn-Lewis [Spiritual Man]), but women can't give a Sunday morning message?

2. Why could Witness Lee criticise everyone else, including James, Peter, Martin Luther, but none criticise Lee? Can't you see how Chinese that is? It's human culture. It's not divine order.

3. How come David didn't turn the other cheek, but threw a rock at Goliath? Not very Christian! Or, Samuel killing Agag. Because in the Psalms footnotes you see Lee panning David for his violent and unchristian sentiments. Why the inconsistency?

4. How come your hymns say, "all self-effort is vain" while your HWMR outlines are full of "we must" and "we need to" and "we have to"? Which is it?

[OGOP]

OGOP, members of this forum and I do not see eye to eye on many things. However, I believe your request of them is completely inappropriate and insulting. Where did you get the impression that they would be willing to collude with you in deception?

Perhaps I worded my question improperly.
I'm asking about peoples experiences of their time while still a member of the church, but their hearts weren't in it.
I have been completely open about my feelings on the church with her, its just she wants us to get more involved before we leave, so that she feels comfortable in my decision to leave.
And I'm worried if I do get more involved its only going to be harder for me, mentally, to leave

[OGOP]

4 questions:

1. Why was the LC essentially formed by women (Margaret Barber, Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Mary McDonald [3 parts of man], Jessie Penn-Lewis [Spiritual Man]), but women can't give a Sunday morning message?

2. Why could Witness Lee criticise everyone else, including James, Peter, Martin Luther, but none criticise Lee? Can't you see how Chinese that is? It's human culture.

3. How come David didn't turn the other cheek, but threw a rock at Goliath? Not very Christian! Or, Samuel killing Agag. Because in the Psalms footnotes you see Lee panning David for his violent and unchristian behavior. Why the inconsistency?

1. I did not know about women's role in the churches founding. Interesting. I will have to look more into that.
That is a good question though, I have always asked about women not being allowed to be front row, can't give morning message, etc. That is definitely something I will ask.
2. The Chinese culture as a whole is something I want to ask about.
3. Interesting.

[OGOP]

Does she plan to attend the full time training (FTT)? If so, that would be even a more serious concern, since she would have to "put an end to you."

Thankfully she is not set on attending right out of college, and has only considered the married couples training once we are married. It is not something she is dead set on by any means though.

They don't really practice what they believe, hence their answers may be acceptable to you in word, but not in reality.

That is a good point and something I am worried about. That they will answer my questions with the typical LC talking points, and it can all sound fine and make sense, but thats all they are- just words. And that they are able to hide the reality.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OGOP

1 The Chinese culture as a whole is something I want to ask about..

The whole 'exercise your spirit' thing is little more than thinly-veiled social control. Get someone to publicly lose face. Notice the juniors never tell the seniors, "Execise your spirit"! It's a totally one-way street. There is no mutuality whatever. It's oriental social engineering.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OGOP

I didn't know about women's role in the churches founding. Interesting. I will have to look more into that. .

Watchman Nee authored only one book: "Spiritual Man"; the rest of his works are copies of message notes. And much of Spiritual Man was a plagiarized version of Jessie Penn-Lewis' "Soul and Spirit". If you read later editions of the Nee book, the publisher's preface acknowledges this. But why did he copy a woman's teaching? Either the LC was illegitimate at its founding, being largely based on women's teaching and leadership, or it's illegitimate now, denying women's teaching and leadership. How can they have it both ways?

Here's another LC "Founding Mother": Mary McDonough. See link below.

http://www.tripartiteman.org/historical/mcdonough.html

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OGOP

I'm asking about peoples experiences of their time while still a member of the church, but their hearts weren't in it.

I've said many times publicly and privately no one can last years in the local churches if they didn't have some positive experiences.
My time in the local churches as an adult, I was for the locality I met with but when it came to trainings, conferences, etc I could care less. You see there was so much more profit in praying for one another than there was taking turning reading a sentence or two from ministry publications. Simply no comparison.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You need to address what bothers you, and not what bothers others, if possible. You mentioned all the trainings. That's a real concern. Most local elders only carry out the plans of LSM, and have little liberty to do else. If the elders seem controlling to you, that's because they also are being controlled by others from LSM. Very little liberty of the Spirit exists there, though you may hear endless messages to the contrary. LSM is not the kind of ministry that the elders can pick and choose what meets the needs of their people. LSMers really feel that every LC member is their fruit, and belongs to them, with all their offerings.

True. I have had my runaround with a local elder. What concerns you may have merit and you may have supporting points. When the rubber meets the road even if the elder recognizes your points, is only recourse is to "respect the feeling of the body' (fellowship of the coworkers bears more weight than what his human spirit or his conscience does). LSM is the basis of fellowship.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OGOP

...
So here's my question for y'all:
1) What questions would you/should I ask the brother when I do have a meeting with him 1-on-1? So far I am planning to address my concerns regarding: Full time training, witness lee, living stream ministry scandals, controlling nature of the "elders"
If you have advice on how to word them that would be a huge help. For example I know the full time training gives me the cult vibe, but what should I question about it specifically. I can't just say 'whats sup with all the trainings, thats a softball question and I'm just going to get the same old talking points.
2) How can I get involved it the church life and make it seems genuine without falling into it. Not sure if I worded that correctly but essentially I am scared that if I get too involved that its going to be even harder to leave. Any advice on "faking it"in the LC lol? Im sure some of y'all have been here before.

God Bless
OGOP

OGOP,

Having worked as a paralegal and watched "Law and Order" on TV a lot :-) , one rule of thumb is: don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to. That is, do your homework. Pray that the Lord will clarify in your own mind your objective in talking to one of the elders. Write down your questions and pray over them. Make sure you can quote the scriptural argument. Narrow them down to the ones you can prosecute with Scripture. Consider questions with one-word answers.

My questions for you:

1. What specifically bothers you about FTT, and what scripture makes it a problem? What specific "cult vibe" bothers you? You might get shot down on this one. a) we can have a Bible school, that's not wrong; 2) we don't force anyone to go. Students attend of their own free will; 3) If you do sign up for FTT, you agree to the teachings we provide and the rules set forth. So this one is sticky.

2. What bothers you about Witness Lee? What scripture/s support the bothering? What specific teachings? e.g., "Poor degraded Christianity"? Well brother, we're just telling the truth. (Scripture: Judge not that you be not judged...). "Poor and degraded" is a subjective criticism. The issue isn't actually if Christianity is poor and degraded, but we are all brothers in Christ, who are you to pass judgment? Paul criticized the Jews, but not the Christian believers, even in their worst sinful condition. Paul even gave a brother in the church over to the devil for the salvation of his soul, but he never called him names. Paul's purpose was to preserve the purity of the church and rescue the sinning brother. What did Witness Lee gain by criticizing his brothers and thereby teaching his followers to do so?

3. What LSM scandals? If you haven't done so, read "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion" by Lee then the response "Speaking the Truth in Love" by John Ingalls.

Whatever questions you ask should be specific and you should press until you get a specific answer. For example, what is Lee's scriptural basis for the statement "Don't say anything negative." What if the truth is "negative". What is the scriptural basis for this practice? We are taught not to lie. We have to tell the truth, even if it may appear to be "negative." Thou shalt not bear false witness. (What about the brother in Corinth who was sleeping with his father's wife? Paul certainly didn't mince words dealing with sin in the camp.)

Lee teaches "don't ask questions". Why? The Bible teaches us the opposite. Ohio has given you the verses The Bereans examined Paul's ministry against scripture. (Acts 17.11)

The Thessalonians were instructed to test all things, and only to hold on to the good. (I Thess 5.21)

The Romans were taught to prove by testing what the will of God is. (Romans 12.2)

John admonished the believers not to believe everything they were taught, but to test the spirits whether they are of God. (I John 4.1)

I hope this helps. You control the meeting. You are the one asking the questions. If you don't get a specific answer or one that makes sense to you, consider it "non-responsive" and go to the next question.

Nell

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by OGOP

1) What questions would you/should I ask the brother when I do have a meeting with him 1-on-1?
2) How can I get involved it the church life and make it seems genuine without falling into it.

I would suggest not to try to spend too much time on the "faults" you see in the LC. Because you won't get any real conclusion and it will waste your precious fellowship time listening to standard answers you may already know.

Instead, think deeply what is your real belief on what the church should be like and how you would live a life that is pleasing to God. Simply share your view to the brother. He doesn't have to agree with you, and neither do you have to be convinced by him otherwise.

The second question is simpler. Don't fake it. Practice what you genuinely believe and let others know about it. You don't have to call on the name of the Lord n times like others if you don't think it is the correct way. You don't have to say Amen if you don't agree. And speak what your truly received from the Lord even if it may be different from the ministry message yet remain respectful to the others.

Most important of all, don't let anything you don't agree with the LC affect your own personal relationship with God. Don't stop praising God because you don't want to praise Him the LC way. Don't stop studying God's words because you don't agree with the ministry messages. Instead, praise Him and seek Him even more earnestly.

View all these as a test on the truthfulness of your relationship with God, and also your relationship with your girl friend. It would be difficult but with faith would not be beyond what you are able. And be humble all the time to seek guidance from our dear Lord.

2 Cor 12:9 And He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather boast in my weaknesses that the power of Christ might tabernacle over me.

Originally Posted by OGOP

She has agreed that she will follow me to a church I feel comfortable once we are married, ON THE CONDITION that I first have a meeting with a church elder and that I give these next few months my BEST TRY and full attention to be active and engaged in "the church life"

You may also need to set her expectation right. The final result might not be what she wants. And I don't think you need to change her to follow you either. As long as the mutual respect can be maintained, it seems fine for you and her to attend different churches. Just avoid the mentality of I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong-concerning-Christ.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The second question is simpler. Don't fake it. Practice what you genuinely believe and let others know about it. You don't have to call on the name of the Lord n times like others if you don't think it is the correct way. You don't have to say Amen if you don't agree. And speak what your truly received from the Lord even if it may be different from the ministry message yet remain respectful to the others.

Most important of all, don't let anything you don't agree with the LC affect your own personal relationship with God. Don't stop praising God because you don't want to praise Him the LC way. Don't stop studying God's words because you don't agree with the ministry messages. Instead, praise Him and seek Him even more earnestly.

View all these as a test on the truthfulness of your relationship with God, and also your relationship with your girl friend. It would be difficult but with faith would not be beyond what you are able. And be humble all the time to seek guidance from our dear Lord.

This is sound advise. If you "fake" your interest in the LC it will turn out bad for all concerned. Just as love conquers all, so too truth conquers all. In my experience, love MUST come with truth, and truth MUST come with love. If you love this girl then you will certainly want to see her walk in the truth. Therefore you must first walk in the truth. Sounds like you already got her following you in love, now she needs to follow you in truth. Yet just as love cannot be forced on someone, neither can truth be forced on someone.

My dear young brother, I am speaking to you from personal experience. I've been around the block a few times more than you. I have been in a situation similar to yours, and I have the scars to prove it. I would suggest finding a solid Christian fellowship in your area, find some older brothers for prayer, support, fellowship and advise. Maybe attend the Lord's Table meeting once a month at the Local Church. Maybe your girlfriend can come to some kind of function at your church once a month as well. Let the Holy Spirit do the convincing and convicting...He's pretty good at that stuff, ya know.
-

[aron]

OGOP,

Sorry for posting so much. . . those were some questions that I haven't seen answered by the LSM LC. Most times, they don't even try to answer. One poster here, ZNP, recently asked a "leading one" about an expulsion/quarantine that appeared politically-motivated; the man put his hands over his ears and said, "I'm a monkey". (During the Philip Lee Rebellion, one brother said, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand." What is it about the LC that turns humans into marginally-functional animals?)

But you may come up with an entirely different set of questions. Just be honest and open. Like the others have said here, seek first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added unto you. Make God's will for you the chief focus of your inquiry and the details will all come forth, "pressed down, shaken together, running over".

On my question of David being violent toward Goliath (and others), and Samuel towards Agag, and the Israelites in general, many NT expositors besides Lee stumbled over this. The answer seems simple: "We fight not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, powers, authorities in the air. . . " But we do fight. Just not against humans, but rather spiritual forces. But if you read the RecV footnotes in the Psalms, Lee missed that. And he missed the True Warrior King, who caused demons to cry out in fear. "Ah! Jesus! Nazarene! You're the Holy One of God! Have you come to destroy us so soon?" &c. .

Anyway, those were just thoughts from someone along the way. Find your own voice and you'll do fine. Peace.

[Koinonia]

For me, the main hypocrisy of the Local Church is its slide from the early 1960s "standing for the church in the city" to today operating as the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books. LC members today stand for "the ministry" (Witness Lee); they study "the ministry," promote "the ministry," distribute "the ministry," repeat "the ministry," "get constituted with" "the ministry," etc., etc. All of the organizations within what they call "the work" exist to promote Witness Lee (LSM, FTTA, BFA, Rhema, MSW, LME, etc., etc.)

In the end, you need to be genuine and sincere with the brother who talks with you. But if you are looking to raise a legitimate concern, I feel this one is the most important.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

. . the main hypocrisy of the Local Church is its slide from the early 1960s "standing for the church in the city" to today operating as the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books. . .

The local churches were genuinely local for 6 or 8 years. Then Watchman Nee discovered the centralizing Jerusalem Principle. Witness Lee knew all this, of course, but he still sold us the "genuine local churches" motif, knowing full well it was a ruse, an engine to separate us from our fellows.

Once he'd built his ideational pen, and lured us in, he turned up the heat, bit by bit; like frogs in a pot, we could jump out anytime but we sat there, stupefied, as our local churches became ministry stations.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This is sound advise. If you "fake" your interest in the LC it will turn out bad for all concerned. Just as love conquers all, so too truth conquers all. In my experience, love MUST come with truth, and truth MUST come with love. If you love this girl then you will certainly want to see her walk in the truth. Therefore you must first walk in the truth. Sounds like you already got her following you in love, now she needs to follow you in truth. Yet just as love cannot be forced on someone, neither can truth be forced on someone.

Drake, A little brother, and UntoHim are each giving the same message. Don't fake interest and don't pretend to go along. It's not going to end well should you get married. It goes both ways.
Is exclusive fellowship iwith the local churches conditional for the relationship to flourish? It should be communicated.
Is the elder's opinion the overriding factor for the relationship to continue? It should be communicated.
Sometimes love isn't enough. You need friendship, trust, and communication. Of course all of it is based on your fellowship in the Lord.