Outer Darkness?

Bradley · 06-05-2017, 10:10 PM

Hey guys,

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Thanks

Fuji · 06-05-2017, 10:44 PM

Hey Bradley, when I read your post in the other thread, you mentioned that you are "in the world" - that you listen to worldly music and go to pub...my dear brother, there is nothing wrong with these acts and I personally think you are under the bondage of legalism which is common for many LC Members. For me it took also awhile to finally see the legalistic bondage I had after leaving LC. It takes time. But our God is full of grace.

I'm not sure about what you mean by "1000year of outer darkness". I do know that LC believes in a future 1000-year millienial kingdom and according to them only "the overcomers" will enter into it. But I never knew they said something like the ones who are not overcomers will be sent into darkness.

I personally am a strong amillennialist and as much as I admire Nee, his continuing partial rapture theory is also absurd to me. These however are not dividing issues but do remember that anyone who is in Christ, who partakes in Christ, is an overcomer. We all share His victory and the fear you have is absolutely not a fruit of the Spirit...!

I hope you will be set free from this fear. Legalism breeds fear and guilt but our Lord gives life and freedom.

Bradley · 06-06-2017, 12:22 AM

I hope you're right, Fuji!

The LC teaches that all the defeated believers, i.e. the 5 foolish virgins from Matt 25, will miss out on the millennial kingdom and will be cast out into 'outer darkness' for 1000 years where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It has always struck me as somewhat harsh, like salvation doesn't really help that much if I still have to worry about this 'damnation lite' for being a bad Christian.

When I go to the pub I'm still the nice guy I am everywhere else, right? I'd like to agree with you about that because I'm not being particularly horrible to anyone at the pub. I'm just in a certain location. I'd love to be able to just believe it's okay but the paranoia that maybe I'm just lying to myself is still there. As a result it's easier to just not think about it and not pray. That doesn't help my relationship with the Lord though.

Ohio · 06-06-2017, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradley

Hey guys,

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Thanks

Hi Bradley,

LSM has defined "defeated believers" to be all those in denominations, all those in so-called free groups, all those who leave the LC's, all those who are in LC's but not under LSM's control, all those who do not attend the FTT's, all those in the LC but don't function, etc. etc.

Did I miss anybody?

Exclusive sects like TLR thrive on fear-mongering. They peddle it like the politicians do. Unfortunately, it will take you some time for you to "purge out the old leaven." Yes, there are truths buried beneath LC teachings, but since they remain buried, they are like unsprouted seeds in legalistic soils spoiled by the toxins and pollutants of Lee's relgious system.

I encourage you to spend time getting reaquainted with Jesus and His word. Read the gospels. Build upon the relationship you had when you first met Jesus. He knows you, and He knows what you have been thru. The haunting fear of outer darkness does little to guide one's journey. I encourage you to spend time with the Lord discussing your life, both the failures and the positives. When I was passing thru a valley of the shadow of death similar to yours, I found reading slowly thru the Proverbs was helpful. Ask Him to introduce you to new friends. When you read, try to clear your mind of doctrines, and focus on the verse in front of you. Just you and Jesus and His words on the page. Inquire of Him for something new. Humble yourself to ask. Confess failures without blaming others. This is what I would call the real pray-reading, and provides the real healing of our soul.

Nell · 06-06-2017, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

...I encourage you to spend time getting reaquainted with Jesus and His word. Read the gospels. Build upon the relationship you had when you first met Jesus. He knows you, and He knows what you have been thru. The haunting fear of outer darkness does little to guide one's journey. I encourage you to spend time with the Lord discussing your life, both the failures and the positives. When I was passing thru a valley of the shadow of death similar to yours, I found reading slowly thru the Proverbs was helpful. Ask Him to introduce you to new friends. When you read, try to clear your mind of doctrines, and focus on the verse in front of you. Just you and Jesus and His words on the page. Inquire of Him for something new. Humble yourself to ask. Confess failures without blaming others. This is what I would call the real pray-reading, and provides the real healing of our soul.

Well said, Ohio. I would add, get a new Bible...one without Lee's footnotes. I have an NIV I like to read, but for looking things up, I go to the BibleGateway website and search in the KJV because that's what I grew up reading. A wise person told me once to "read the Bible like it was a book." Just read it. That really helped!

When I left "it" I had fear also. One Bible search you might start with is the words "fear not."

Before I left, I prayed "Lord, please don't let go of me." He never has.

I also determined that I would no longer believe ANYTHING Witness Lee said. NOTHING. I believed THE BIBLE. ONLY the Bible. If Lee happened to line up with Scripture, so be it, but I don't believe it because Lee said it. I believe it because God said it.

I would encourage you not to look for a church. I know. Strange. Instead, look for God's people. Close your eyes to names on the doors, to doctrines, to teachings and organizations. However, if something doesn't sound right to you, it probably isn't. Don't ignore such a warning. We did this and got into troubls.

As you visit places, look for Christians who love Jesus and are seeking Him. Look for Christians who love one another. Keep your eyes open. If you do this...surely the church will find you.

Blessings to you Bradley and Fuji.

Nell

OBW · 06-06-2017, 09:37 AM

I would add on to Nell's remarks that you should never just rely on what quickly comes to you are being simply right or being a problem. The longer you were part of the LRC, the more that you first impression will tend to align with its teachings without thinking about it. You will gravitate to its meanings for words. You will presume that the things they thought were bad really are.

If you find yourself in some regular Christian church, you will have a reaction to a choir song, or an electric guitar and drums. Or you will first think you should refrain from taking one of the broken crackers or little-bitty juice cups for communion. And you will recoil at the use of the term "communion."

None of these things are bad. None of them are spiritually deficient. But we got trained that they are. You will have a sort of withdrawal effect when someone triggers one of those things.

But while I do not put much stock in what Lee said about it, there is a reference or two to "outer darkness" in the gospels. And depending on how you read certain parables, there is a question on the simplistic "once saved always saved" doctrine. And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. But it is not clear. So my tendency is say that "whoever believes," not whoever believed, "shall not perish . . . ." Not sure what that means. It just raises questions.

But I can almost assure you that the things that are touted by the LRC as the ways to avoid outer darkness, the little dark room, or whatever terminology is wanted to be put on this alternate purgatory, are not it, there is some question as to what those verses mean. Those that dismiss it entirely are following a dogma just as much as those who follow Lee's teachings.

The real issue is that no matter how you read it, the answer is in believing (not just having believed), following, and obeying. And that last one more than any other is generally panned by the LRC. They despise obedience. They reject anything that could appear to be from the flesh as if the appearance makes it so. Be moving forward. Not stagnant or in retreat.

And as for whatever those outer darkness for 1,000 years may mean, even if they are actually something like Lee taught, it is not eternity. Allow it to spur you forward. Do not let it freeze you with fear. Do not let it be the reason that you just chuck it all.

Ohio · 06-06-2017, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Well said, Ohio. I would add, get a new Bible...one without Lee's footnotes. I have an NIV I like to read ...

Great suggestions, Nell.

I like the WEB -- World English Bible -- similar structure to what we were used to. It seems to "fit." But I have other Bibles depending on whom I am with. I have grown to love the diversity which different versions provide. I got saved reading a paraphrased version called the "Greatest is Love," so I know there is no "perfect" translation.

Leaving the LC system, especially for the FTT's, is so similar to the early disciples leaving Judaism. Read the Gospel of John again and again. Don't think these young disciples did not have fears leaving the Synagogues and being shunned by old friends and family. It was scary at times! Think about it. Judaism supposedly was God's best. They daily heard how blessed they were compared to those evil (denomi)nations. Their lives revolved around the local Synagogue. They left a highly structured legalistic system, mostly bankrupt of real love, which basically decided much of their life for them. They "love" you if you stay, but no more "love" for those who leave.

Once Jesus came along, the disciples left their little circle of family and friends, starting a new adventure. Fears and warnings and condemnations, from within and without, daily surrounded them. Oh sure there were exciting times with Jesus healing the sick and shaming the hypocrites, but often their days ahead appeared quite ominous. Change was constant, which is frightening in its own right. Many couldn't handle it. Not an easy journey. They knew something was so special about Jesus, yet opposing voices, inside and outside, were everywhere.

Little is said in the Gospels, but I believe that Jesus spent some private and personal time with each of His disciples. He was preparing them to one day walk by His Spirit, the same journey each of God's children were required to make. It was to walk by faith, to walk by what is beyond even what we can see, or feel, or hear, or know. The same walk as father Abraham and the rest of the household of faith. Hebrews 11 shows us some of those, with both the glory and the hardships they encountered. But today everyone of them, without exception, would tell us it was all worthwhile. Even the martyrs would say they wouldn't trade their lives for the world.

JJ · 06-06-2017, 01:41 PM

I love Ohio's post too!

2 featured posts?

Cal · 06-06-2017, 02:17 PM

One of the things you'll find, Bradley, is during this time of separation from the LC the Devil will really try to accuse you and scare you. Fear of "outer darkness" is one of the things he will use against you.

It is not that we don't need to respect that the Lord requires things of us, or may even discipline us when we are judged. It is that the LCM-specific fears should be ignored and you should limit your concern to whether you are obeying the basic commandments to Christians. Are you loving, forgiving, honest, fair? Do you seek to live to God's glory?

Whether you attend the LC meetings, or are in "the Recovery" or read Witness Lee's ministry are not part of that deal. So don't worry about those.

So there is a balance. Yes, God expects us to live obedient lives, but no he doesn't expect us to live them out in Witness Lee's movement or according to Lee's proprietary vision.

God loves you. Find a simple, straightforward, non-weird church that does not try to control you. Keep it simple and stay positive.

My favorite Bible right now is the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). It's written with a very limited vocabulary, I think about a fifth-grade level. It's great for kids, but I think it does a great job of conveying the essential meaning with minimal confusion. I use it for my daily reading.

06-05-2017, 10:10 PM	#1
Bradley Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 65	Outer Darkness? Hey guys, So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe. Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers? This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter. Thanks

06-05-2017, 10:44 PM	#2
Fuji Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 16	Re: Outer Darkness? Hey Bradley, when I read your post in the other thread, you mentioned that you are "in the world" - that you listen to worldly music and go to pub...my dear brother, there is nothing wrong with these acts and I personally think you are under the bondage of legalism which is common for many LC Members. For me it took also awhile to finally see the legalistic bondage I had after leaving LC. It takes time. But our God is full of grace. I'm not sure about what you mean by "1000year of outer darkness". I do know that LC believes in a future 1000-year millienial kingdom and according to them only "the overcomers" will enter into it. But I never knew they said something like the ones who are not overcomers will be sent into darkness. I personally am a strong amillennialist and as much as I admire Nee, his continuing partial rapture theory is also absurd to me. These however are not dividing issues but do remember that anyone who is in Christ, who partakes in Christ, is an overcomer. We all share His victory and the fear you have is absolutely not a fruit of the Spirit...! I hope you will be set free from this fear. Legalism breeds fear and guilt but our Lord gives life and freedom.

06-06-2017, 12:22 AM	#3
Bradley Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 65	Re: Outer Darkness? I hope you're right, Fuji! The LC teaches that all the defeated believers, i.e. the 5 foolish virgins from Matt 25, will miss out on the millennial kingdom and will be cast out into 'outer darkness' for 1000 years where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It has always struck me as somewhat harsh, like salvation doesn't really help that much if I still have to worry about this 'damnation lite' for being a bad Christian. When I go to the pub I'm still the nice guy I am everywhere else, right? I'd like to agree with you about that because I'm not being particularly horrible to anyone at the pub. I'm just in a certain location. I'd love to be able to just believe it's okay but the paranoia that maybe I'm just lying to myself is still there. As a result it's easier to just not think about it and not pray. That doesn't help my relationship with the Lord though.

06-06-2017, 09:37 AM	#6
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: Outer Darkness? I would add on to Nell's remarks that you should never just rely on what quickly comes to you are being simply right or being a problem. The longer you were part of the LRC, the more that you first impression will tend to align with its teachings without thinking about it. You will gravitate to its meanings for words. You will presume that the things they thought were bad really are. If you find yourself in some regular Christian church, you will have a reaction to a choir song, or an electric guitar and drums. Or you will first think you should refrain from taking one of the broken crackers or little-bitty juice cups for communion. And you will recoil at the use of the term "communion." None of these things are bad. None of them are spiritually deficient. But we got trained that they are. You will have a sort of withdrawal effect when someone triggers one of those things. But while I do not put much stock in what Lee said about it, there is a reference or two to "outer darkness" in the gospels. And depending on how you read certain parables, there is a question on the simplistic "once saved always saved" doctrine. And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. But it is not clear. So my tendency is say that "whoever believes," not whoever believed, "shall not perish . . . ." Not sure what that means. It just raises questions. But I can almost assure you that the things that are touted by the LRC as the ways to avoid outer darkness, the little dark room, or whatever terminology is wanted to be put on this alternate purgatory, are not it, there is some question as to what those verses mean. Those that dismiss it entirely are following a dogma just as much as those who follow Lee's teachings. The real issue is that no matter how you read it, the answer is in believing (not just having believed), following, and obeying. And that last one more than any other is generally panned by the LRC. They despise obedience. They reject anything that could appear to be from the flesh as if the appearance makes it so. Be moving forward. Not stagnant or in retreat. And as for whatever those outer darkness for 1,000 years may mean, even if they are actually something like Lee taught, it is not eternity. Allow it to spur you forward. Do not let it freeze you with fear. Do not let it be the reason that you just chuck it all. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

06-06-2017, 01:41 PM	#8
JJ Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 1,006	Re: Outer Darkness? I love Ohio's post too! 2 featured posts? __________________ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)

06-06-2017, 02:17 PM	#9
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: Outer Darkness? One of the things you'll find, Bradley, is during this time of separation from the LC the Devil will really try to accuse you and scare you. Fear of "outer darkness" is one of the things he will use against you. It is not that we don't need to respect that the Lord requires things of us, or may even discipline us when we are judged. It is that the LCM-specific fears should be ignored and you should limit your concern to whether you are obeying the basic commandments to Christians. Are you loving, forgiving, honest, fair? Do you seek to live to God's glory? Whether you attend the LC meetings, or are in "the Recovery" or read Witness Lee's ministry are not part of that deal. So don't worry about those. So there is a balance. Yes, God expects us to live obedient lives, but no he doesn't expect us to live them out in Witness Lee's movement or according to Lee's proprietary vision. God loves you. Find a simple, straightforward, non-weird church that does not try to control you. Keep it simple and stay positive. My favorite Bible right now is the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). It's written with a very limited vocabulary, I think about a fifth-grade level. It's great for kids, but I think it does a great job of conveying the essential meaning with minimal confusion. I use it for my daily reading.