Are The Local Churches Growing?

[Waterfall]

Hi, do you all know if the local churches have been growing a lot or of it is maybe getting smaller? I heard most of the church kids leave, I don't know if I heard right. But they are so focused on recruiting on college campuses. It's hard for me to understand why God lets a group like this exist. It's heartwrenching to see family and old friends trapped in it. It's not easy to leave and start seeing through it and navigate life on your own.

[Koinonia]

Growth in the U.S. is stagnant and is only bolstered by a regular influx of Asian immigrants. And for this reason, the LC in the U.S. is now almost certainly majority-Chinese.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Waterfall

Hi, do you all know if the local churches have been growing a lot or of it is maybe getting smaller? I heard most of the church kids leave, I don't know if I heard right. But they are so focused on recruiting on college campuses. It's hard for me to understand why God lets a group like this exist. It's heartwrenching to see family and old friends trapped in it. It's not easy to leave and start seeing through it and navigate life on your own.

I doubt if they will ever recover the losses in the great lakes area after the quarantines of a decade ago. They will never recover South America after nixing them. Surprisingly the GLA had a higher percentage of white folk than the rest of the country. The remaining LC's really are becoming a Chinese church. Makes sense since the only holiday they can freely celebrate is the Chinese New Year.

God is extremely big-hearted. He allows all sorts of stuff in this age. Think about how many worse things exist on earth.

There is much of the Lord to know and learn from while departing the LC's and navigating a new life. He has been thru this similar journey for two millennia with His children, and is well able to direct you and your family.

[TLFisher]

Expanding yes, but growing? From what I've seen it's rather stagnant. My time in the NW many of the young people have been groomed for FTTA. Few return to the localities that sponsor them. Those who don't attend FTTA seem to choose other venues for Christian fellowship after college.
In Southern California, at least when I visit my parents, from what I've seen bulk of the campus work is focused on international students.
The locality from my youth in the mid-80's used to be predominantly English and Spanish speaking. Now it's predominantly Spanish and Chinese speaking. Most of the English speaking ones remaining are ones who are now 30+ years older from when I knew them in the mid 80's.
Responsible brothers may ask why are the churches stagnant? It's a question they don't want to hear the answer to.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I doubt if they will ever recover the losses in the great lakes area after the quarantines of a decade ago. They will never recover South America after nixing them. Surprisingly the GLA had a higher percentage of white folk than the rest of the country. The remaining LC's really are becoming a Chinese church. Makes sense since the only holiday they can freely celebrate is the Chinese New Year.

It amazes me how the LCM can 'quarantine' entire regions and countries and then the blendeds go up to the podium to speak about getting an increase.

Truth be told, the LC will likely always have an influx of new members, but it's not really enough to obtain any meaningful level of growth or to make up for all the people they've lost.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It amazes me how the LCM can 'quarantine' entire regions and countries . .

Yes, then they can say "Brazil, or Minnesota, or Germany, grew by 46% over the past two years. . " Yes; after the 'quarantine' or 'storm' the LSM-affiliated groups essentially go to zero, then either someone migrates in or a few turn back to the Mother Ship or come in off the college campus, and suddenly, wow, look at the growth in this region! Yes, you went from 8 adherents to 11. Incredible growth rate. Like WL the accountant would say, "At this rate we will take over the world in 20 years!"

Then after a 'storm' he'd say, "I don't care if I have 50 people meeting here. As long as they're absolute".

What amazes me is how 'oneness' is predicated on being adherent with the Mother Ship's HQ. How is that any different from any denomination?

The LSM-LC needs to base its existence and 'raison-d'etre' (reason for being) on contrasting itself with the fallen denominations. As long as they make a compelling case that Protestantism and Catholicism and Orthodox and the now-largely-post-Protestant landscape of 'church planting' and the 'emergent church' and whatnot are hopelessly deformed and abhorred by God, they can attract and keep a few adherents.

Then, they have to 'inoculate' the acolytes against the 'poison', i.e. the truth about the LSM-LC failures which arguably make them equally deformed and abhorred by God, or even more abhorrent because they're hypocritical to boot.

Remember that two sinners stood and prayed. One confessed and was forgiven. The other hid his sin, and judged the other sinner, and wasn't forgiven. The LSM-LC seems to think the latter tack is necessary for survival. But it puts them at odds with Jesus' parable. Not a hopeful scenario for the long term.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes, then they can say "Brazil, or Minnesota, or Germany, grew by 46% over the past two years. . " Yes; after the 'quarantine' or 'storm' the LSM-affiliated groups essentially go to zero, then either someone migrates in or a few turn back to the Mother Ship or come in off the college campus, and suddenly, wow, look at the growth in this region! Yes, you went from 8 adherents to 11. Incredible growth rate. Like WL the accountant would say, "At this rate we will take over the world in 20 years!"

"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, D**ned lies, and Statistics."

[leastofthese]

I don't have the exact numbers, but can state anecdotally that the growth in my city is very low considering the amount of time, money, and effort spent recruiting on campus. In fact, the meeting hall has four prominent "No Trespassing" signs that line the entrance. Like most (all?) other localities, there is also no signage to indicate that believers and seekers are welcome to join and worship the Lord.

Maybe someone could argue that this would be a division? Which as Lee puts it, "is on the line of death, originates with Satan, and issues in the great Babylon and, ultimately, the lake of fire."(Genuine Ground of Oneness, CHP 3, Sec 1 http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n).

Or maybe they don't need to remove the trespassing signs and instead, as Witness Lee puts it, "God commands us to destroy all other worship centers and to go only to the place chosen by Him." (Genuine Ground of Oneness, CHP 4, Sec 3 http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Waterfall

It's heartwrenching to see family and old friends trapped in it. It's not easy to leave and start seeing through it and navigate life on your own.

More heartwrenching to see the "Us and Them" attitude. Family dynamics are affected between those that leave and those that remain.
Those raised in the local churches, I tip my cap to those can leave and have a seamless transition to a Christian fellowship beyond the local churches.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Waterfall

Hi, do you all know if the local churches have been growing a lot or of it is maybe getting smaller? I heard most of the church kids leave, I don't know if I heard right. But they are so focused on recruiting on college campuses. It's hard for me to understand why God lets a group like this exist. It's heartwrenching to see family and old friends trapped in it. It's not easy to leave and start seeing through it and navigate life on your own.

The number of adults on a typical Sunday in the local churches in my area has been stagnant for a long time. Lot's of "new ones" have been recruited, especially from the campuses. But it seems that as many leave as are added. There are a few more cities with local churches in my region now vs 30 years ago.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

The number of adults on a typical Sunday in the local churches in my area has been stagnant for a long time. Lot's of "new ones" have been recruited, especially from the campuses. But it seems that as many leave as are added. There are a few more cities with local churches in my region now vs 30 years ago.

In my town, there is a small gathering on campus supported by LSM, and another small gathering supported by Cleveland at the old meeting hall. Both added together is still just a fraction of what the church was once like.

At the recent regional conference in Cleveland, TItus Chu publicly told the local elders to "sell the meeting hall" since it is too expensive to maintain by the few remaining saints.

That's often how local decisions were made in the LC's. The big boss would spring it on us publicly. There really was nothing called "local elders deciding before the Lord." Never, because that would be "independent decisions, without fellowship."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my town, there is a small gathering on campus supported by LSM, and another small gathering supported by Cleveland at the old meeting hall. Both added together is still just a fraction of what the church was once like.

At the recent regional conference in Cleveland, TItus Chu publicly told the local elders to "sell the meeting hall" since it is too expensive to maintain by the few remaining saints.

That's often how local decisions were made in the LC's. The big boss would spring it on us publicly. There really was nothing called "local elders deciding before the Lord." Never, because that would be "independent decisions, without fellowship."

When I was in college, there was a college meeting that I was attending for a number of years that progressively got smaller and smaller. When I first started going, there were maybe 40 or so attending on a regular basis, and eventually, it got down to where there were only a few including myself who were attending regularly. Maybe the initial size was too large for a home meeting, but the real issue was that so many had just 'disappeared' and there was really no explanation for why that had happened.

It got to the point of just being completely discouraging to be a part of that meeting, so eventually I stopped attending as well. I don't know if the numbers have since improved or not, but considering there was no desire to 'fix' anything or to plug the massive leakage, I would expect the same trend of decline to still be occurring.

As I see it, that is the problem that the LC faces. They are unwilling to do what needs to be done to retain members, and thus there is a gradual decline over time. Of course, it may not appear so to the average LC member, because there is so much activity going on that it can hide the real situation. But just look at what the LC once was, and where it is now. Sure they can claim that they have more churches or even more membership, but the overall growth is next to nothing, and is no comparison to the initial growth that the LC experienced.

[TLFisher]

Roughly ten years ago or so when it was decided they would "take the ground" in Vancouver, WA (across the river from Portland. OR) coincided with my cousins (who also grew up in the LC) were actively recruited. Was it to build up numbers? What I would see in other localities in Southern California and in Washington state, the number of localities has grown, but those attending those localities was by subtracting from others. It's what I call addition by subtraction.

[Evangelical]

If we want to answer the question of "are the local churches growing" we have to consider the growth over the whole world, not bespoke examples of numbers. I believe overall, from the last time I saw the figures, that the local churches are growing worldwide. The numbers may even be higher if we consider the people using Witness Lee's ministry materials but who do not fellowship in a locality.

Originally Posted by Waterfall

Hi, do you all know if the local churches have been growing a lot or of it is maybe getting smaller?

In the last message of the Ezekiel training this summer, Ron Kangas said, "Many of your local churches are empty"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In the last message of the Ezekiel training this summer, Ron Kangas said, "Many of your local churches are empty"

And that is supposedly the fault of all those church elders who have been given faulty directives, stale food stuffs, and lies swept under the rug for decades?

Here's the greatest lie of all -- being "absolute for the ministry" brings heavenly spiritual blessing from God.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In the last message of the Ezekiel training this summer, Ron Kangas said, "Many of your local churches are empty"

Well the fountain of living water dried up a long time ago. Their lamps ran out of oil and instead of going to Holy Spirit to fill their lamps, they expected the blenders to fill them.

They need to take off the old wine skins and put on fresh new wine skins. As long as they hold on to the ghost of Lee, the blenders, the HWMR, their criticism of Christians outside their dome, they are going to die.

But God won't forget them. The Shepard knows His sheep. He will call their names. The resurrected Christ will resurrect the dead in Christ.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In the last message of the Ezekiel training this summer, Ron Kangas said, "Many of your local churches are empty"

It's telling when those like Ron make this kind of admission. Really though, I think that they put so much trust in the supposedly 'unbreakable' LC forumla that they don't know what to do when it fails. They do they only thing they know to do and follow Lee's example of blaming the local elders.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's telling when those like Ron make this kind of admission. Really though, I think that they put so much trust in the supposedly 'unbreakable' LC forumla that they don't know what to do when it fails. They do they only thing they know to do and follow Lee's example of blaming the local elders.

Of course it is implied to do anything apart from the LC formula is considered "a gimmick".