Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

[Koinonia]

UntoHim, this is probably part of the reason why current LC members do not participate in this forum more frequently. When you first started this message board, you encouraged people to post without registering--if that made them more comfortable.

[UntoHim]

Koinonia,

Your point has merit, and is well taken.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this "Evangelical" person has posted over 20 times, and has sought to interact with other members in a rather comprehensive way. It's not like he/she was just a hit-n-run type poster. They are seeking significant dialog, and that is what this forum is all about.

At this point, anybody on earth can come and post under this name "Evangelical". Out of respect for our forum members, and to avoid confusion, I have always required membership for anyone who wants to enter into our discussions in any significant manner.

As always, I am open from input from all the forum members.

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[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Koinonia,

Your point has merit, and is well taken.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this "Evangelical" person has posted over 20 times, and has sought to interact with other members in a rather comprehensive way. It's not like he/she was just a hit-n-run type poster. They are seeking significant dialog, and that is what this forum is all about.

At this point, anybody on earth can come and post under this name "Evangelical". Out of respect for our forum members, and to avoid confusion, I have always required membership for anyone who wants to enter into our discussions in any significant manner.

As always, I am open from input from all the forum members.

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Thank you, UntoHim. Many/most current members of the LC are in a completely different demographic from most of the people here (spiritually, culturally, ethnically, socioeconomically, geographically, etc., etc). I say this as a fairly recent leaver; I believe there is quite a big disconnect. I know that many in my set (2nd-generation, SoCal, Asian, FTTA, etc.) have a lot of doubts and questions about the LC. However--they would also be deeply suspicious of someone like you and of the organization of this board, even if they would allow themselves to lurk here. I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Just my thoughts offered for consideration.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Thank you, UntoHim. Many/most current members of the LC are in a completely different demographic from most of the people here (spiritually, culturally, ethnically, socioeconomically, geographically, etc., etc). I say this as a fairly recent leaver; I believe there is quite a big disconnect. I know that many in my set (2nd-generation, SoCal, Asian, FTTA, etc.) have a lot of doubts and questions about the LC. However--they would also be deeply suspicious of someone like you and of the organization of this board, even if they would allow themselves to lurk here. I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Just my thoughts offered for consideration.

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them?

Yes, all the time.

If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

May I ask why are you asking me this question?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Yes, all the time. May I ask why are you asking me this question?

Just curious. It was really a superfluous question, admittedly. If you are out then I can probably figure out how you feel about it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

I heard from BP's own mouth that if you leave TLR that you can't go on with the Lord. I've heard from LC elders and senior members that bad things can happen to those who touch the Ministry in a negative way. For me it took Herculean effort and resolve to extract me and my family. Satan has strong spiritual, psychological and sociological tricks to keep people in the deception.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

Yes, which is a lie from the pit of hell and has lead to the spiritual death of many who wish to pursue the Lord with other believers, but feel they it's hopeless.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

...more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Please expound upon this if you will. Safe from what? From harsh criticism of Witness Lee? From having to answer some tough questions regarding the teachings and practices? From the general tone and tenor of some of the regular posters? I am not - repeat NOT- saying that none of these concerns (such as they exist) among current LC members is not legitimate, I am only seeking a little more in depth understanding of any reasons they may have for not entering into dialog.

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

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[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Please expound upon this if you will. Safe from what? From harsh criticism of Witness Lee? From having to answer some tough questions regarding the teachings and practices? From the general tone and tenor of some of the regular posters? I am not - repeat NOT- saying that none of these concerns (such as they exist) among current LC members is not legitimate, I am only seeking a little more in depth understanding of any reasons they may have for not entering into dialog.

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

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What I mean is--in order to encourage current LC members to come here and dialogue, we need to make it a little easier for them. I feel the onus is on us to do that. Obviously, this does not mean agreeing with them. But try to look at it from an LCer's perspective... if they are already here at all, that's huge. But if they feel they want to post anonymously (as a guest)--in order to protect their own relationships with friends and family, but think the board moderator will hound them to register every time they do so, most likely that will discourage them from getting involved.

I have a few other ideas, but do not have time to respond in depth at just the moment. I will do so soon, however.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

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Thanks for your attitude and faithfulness to stand and pray for truth, Unto Him.

Local Church indoctrination to not be open to anything that questions "the ministry", attachment to past good experiences in the LC, and fear of LC leaders reprisals against my family members took me a while to get over. I suspect those are the biggest factors vs registration here for current LC members.

Keep encouraging registration by pointing out its benefits while reminding that it is not required. It might be good to point out that registration info is kept completely confidential.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

Local Church indoctrination to not be open to anything that questions "the ministry", attachment to past good experiences in the LC, and fear of LC leaders reprisals against my family members took me a while to get over. I suspect those are the biggest factors vs registration here for current LC members.

Reprisals? Would the brothers even do such a thing? Probably not, but more likely forum participants regularly meeting with a local church may no longer be welcome to meet. I think that's one element that keeps LCers from posting. Another one is constant warnings of "the internet". Lastly whether personal or electronic contact are warnings about "being poisoned" by the opposers, rebels, etc.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

I have a bit of a different view about this. It's true that LCers are risking something by even coming to this forum, and I also understand the reasoning behind why people are allowed to post anonymously, but it seems there is little benefit to allow regular posters to do so. It's a matter of accountability. If someone has a username, they have to stand behind what they say. It's a bit frustrating when you engage with someone only to have them disappear once they get themselves into hot water. I've seen it happen quite a few times. And that is valuable time wasted on the part of members here who go out of the way to respond to their posts. I understand that LCers are sensitive about what they believe and even more so about defending it, but like anyone else, they still need to learn how to discuss things in a mature way.

Regarding LCers having a "safe space", I think that's just about the last thing that they need, and if fact, they already have it within the confines of their meeting halls and training centers. The way I see the issue is this: LC leadership has effectively stigmatized everything on the internet. Members who venture out as far as this forum are already disobeying leaders. And I think their willingness to do so is a quest for answers. They might not know what answers they're looking for, but they know they're not getting the entire picture in the LC. So for those who have found their way here, getting to the forum wasn't the issue. They already knew beforehand that the material here wasn't going to be pro-LC.

What then I see as the real hindrance for participation on this forum is actually kind of related to the topic of this thread. LCers have been taught that engaging in discussion, discourse or debate is 'fleshly' and part of the "natural man." They might read a lot of things on this forum, but then when it comes to engaging, it's a bit hard to do. They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have a bit of a different view about this. It's true that LCers are risking something by even coming to this forum, and I also understand the reasoning behind why people are allowed to post anonymously, but it seems there is little benefit to allow regular posters to do so. It's a matter of accountability. If someone has a username, they have to stand behind what they say. It's a bit frustrating when you engage with someone only to have them disappear once they get themselves into hot water. I've seen it happen quite a few times. And that is valuable time wasted on the part of members here who go out of the way to respond to their posts. I understand that LCers are sensitive about what they believe and even more so about defending it, but like anyone else, they still need to learn how to discuss things in a mature way.

Regarding LCers having a "safe space", I think that's just about the last thing that they need, and if fact, they already have it within the confines of their meeting halls and training centers. The way I see the issue is this: LC leadership has effectively stigmatized everything on the internet. Members who venture out as far as this forum are already disobeying leaders. And I think their willingness to do so is a quest for answers. They might not know what answers they're looking for, but they know they're not getting the entire picture in the LC. So for those who have found their way here, getting to the forum wasn't the issue. They already knew beforehand that the material here wasn't going to be pro-LC.

What then I see as the real hindrance for participation on this forum is actually kind of related to the topic of this thread. LCers have been taught that engaging in discussion, discourse or debate is 'fleshly' and part of the "natural man." They might read a lot of things on this forum, but then when it comes to engaging, it's a bit hard to do. They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.

I completely agree with you about why LCers do not come and post. But I think we should try to help them in that situation in order to encourage more of an atmosphere of active "dissent" amongst LC members--many of whom have real problems with the LC but would never say so openly (I know this from a lot of experience and dialogue with others). I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

For some idea of what I mean, search around the internet for some of the ex-JW and "fading" JW websites like JWStruggle, JWFacts, and JWSurvey. These kind of up-to-date resources and discussions are sorely lacking when it comes to the LC, and I am actively considering how to help change that.

Again, more later...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

LocalChurchDiscussions was never intended to be a debate forum for ex-LC members. As a matter of fact, you may have noticed, there is no "debate" area on the forum. This is by design. Although I'm not against a good, civil, healthy debate, they are usually not the best tool to foster dialog between current and former members.

Your "wider space" notion is something that I have always hoped could develop here. Besides the "moderator hounding people to register", what else can you point out that may be hindering from LCD becoming such a "space" for current members?

***This question is not just for Koinonia, but for everyone out there. The more input, the better!

For some idea of what I mean, search around the internet for some of the ex-JW and "fading" JW websites like JWStruggle, JWFacts, and JWSurvey. These kind of up-to-date resources and discussions are sorely lacking when it comes to the LC, and I am actively considering how to help change that.

Of those you mention, only JWStruggle has a forum. As a matter of fact, this forum is about the same size as ours (between 250-300 registered members) and has about the same amount of activity. ***Did you notice that guests are not even allowed to post at all. REGISTRATION IS REQUIRED TO MAKE A REPLY OR START A THREAD. I think you will find this true for the vast majority of Internet Forums.

Having open posting is a HUGE security threat to any Internet forum. Trust me, I have found this out the hard way. I don't see how registering compromises one's identity. They can reveal as little or as much about themselves as they feel comfortable with. Obviously, one can post under a "UserName" that does not reveal anything about themselves.

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[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I completely agree with you about why LCers do not come and post. But I think we should try to help them in that situation in order to encourage more of an atmosphere of active "dissent" amongst LC members--many of whom have real problems with the LC but would never say so openly (I know this from a lot of experience and dialogue with others). I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that my shortcomings as an administrator and moderator, along with the generally antagonistic atmosphere that can develop between current and former members of any movement, has greatly hindered this kind of atmosphere from developing on the forum.

Maybe we can set up a separate "page", like I have done for "Alternative Views", that would largely be dedicated to communication and fellowship between current members. Any strong or rancorous postings regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church would be restricted. A current Local Church member could be installed as a moderator. Of course anybody who chooses to participate on this forum page will be perfectly free to participate on the main forum as well.

Let me know if this sounds like something that has potential to bring some current members to the forum. I'm open to just about anything that can foster open communication and fellowship.
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[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.

Much like societies liberals, they take the approach their views are right and don't want to engage in any dialogue that could negate what they believe to be correct.

[Evangelical]

Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.

Well, only if you don't share your sign-in information with others, right?😉

[Evangelical]

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.
I find this rather ironic and amusing, because supposedly we or I are "Lee followers". The meetings have always uplifted Christ, there is really no other name mentioned as frequently.

So I am thinking some of your perspectives are somewhat wrong and perhaps outdated. Just as my perspectives are ignorant of past history.

This was one of the reasons I decided to come to the forum. Not to persuade anyone to do anything, but to highlight that things aren't possibly as bad as made out, or as widespread.

I could recount numerous denominational experiences that were just as bad, or worse. So in my experience the LR is an improvement.

The corruptions of greed, money, power, control, can affect any human being.

I would encourage people to remember to keep the focus on Christ. Holding onto the Head, but also not forgetting the Body.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

I hope it always stays that way. The world needs safe places where people feel welcome to be themselves. All people. We may not agree on all things, but we have a lot in common. That's why I try to acknowledge the occasionally rancorous tone of my postings. I write because I enjoy writing. But if others don't enjoy reading it, then I'm being rather selfish, no? This is a great place to treat others' ideas with the respect that you'd hope they would have for yours.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.

The reason for that is that one doesn't discuss the Ascended Master. He's off limits. Even when he's wrong, he's right. So don't bother to examine him. Just focus on Christ. Right?

Unfortunately the 'Christ' you focus on is filtered through this quite-human ministry, with all its attendant, unexamined quirks and foibles, and therefore this 'Christ' often looks little like the one plainly seen in scriptures. The Bible says that many Christs have come into this world, and not all of them are good, or true.

So we should prove all things, especially ministries which make exaggerated and lofty claims for themselves. You know, the Seer of the Divine Revelation, the One Trumpet, God's Oracle, stuff like that.

[ZoeGrace]

I have not been to this forum for some time now. I chose to avoid all conversation on the matter with my husband and decided it was best to live and let live. I have not been meeting with any church as the Christianity is degraded, and worse, comments are depressing to hear all the time. My husband is a good man. But, he is not open whatsoever to any other teachings than Witness Lee and the ministry. If I ask any questions or bring up alternative views, I am schooled and lately he sarcastically avoids discussions by saying "You have been reading lies on the internet." I know without a doubt that everyone in the local church here believes that you are disloyal to the oneness and the ministry if you question the teachings, especially on forums such as this. They really are afraid to research or listen to anyone who has a different view. My husband would never allow himself to be touched by something worldly like this forum. Probably even go as far as to say it is of Satan. I suppose it is fear and at times arrogance. It is amazing to me how powerful the ministry "brainwashing" is with otherwise intelligent people. My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history. I probably aggravate it as I say the LC is as denominational as any of the others! Needless to say, it is not surprising at all that active LC members do not post here.

Probably most don"t know this exists and also bc why would they want to be influenced negatively?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Searching

Probably most don"t know this exists and also bc why would they want to be influenced negatively?

"Most" is probably true, but many do know about this site and many are learning about faithful sister Casteel's FB testimony. This will multiply as more saints sense the Spirit's nudging of their consciences that there is something off about the Recovery and LSM's management of the LCs. Saints will discover that the threats of bad things happening to them for following their consciences is nothing more than religious superstition propagated by the being blinded brothers and elders. When people are deceived by evil spirits they need to be "influenced negatively" to find freedom in Christ alone.

[allinclusivechrist]

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum .
Also you know my name and address.
I feel that this is how we should live out Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum ...

Reminds me of an LC meeting, where we were told, "You can all prophesy one by one." So one by one, after the speaking, everyone got up and exclaimed, "I can prophesy!" Or, "Praise the Lord! I'm prophesying!"

Uh, "I'm prophesying" hardly counts as a prophetic utterance. And yelling it doesn't really add anything. But thanks anyway.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum .
Also you know my name and address.
I feel that this is how we should live out Christ.

Well praise the Lord and greetings from Scottsdale! May you pursue and find the "all inclusive Christ" in your locality!

Not sure what you are referring to when you said that we "know my name and address" however . . .

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well praise the Lord and greetings from Scottsdale! May you pursue and find the "all inclusive Christ" in your locality!

Not sure what you are referring to when you said that we "know my name and address" however . . .

You can click on the poster's name, and it shows all their posts. The poster gave his name & address on the first post. You can read all 7 posts.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum .
Also you know my name and address.
I feel that this is how we should live out Christ.

Hi allinclusivechrist, what do you mean by "this is how we should live out Christ"?

How did you come to find this forum and what prompted you to post in the first place?

Glad you are here.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hi allinclusivechrist, what do you mean by "this is how we should live out Christ"?

How did you come to find this forum and what prompted you to post in the first place?

Glad you are here.

Trapped

I ditto this question. Please tell us more about you and your testimony!