What It's Really All About

[Cal]

I really feel to share this video of a recent message with you. It makes vivid why the LCM, for all its claims about being in "central lane" of God's purpose, is so far off of God's purpose for the Church that it is sad, stunning, ironic and ridiculous all at the same time.

But it is also a wake up call for all of us, especially those of us who were infected with the LCM's upside down and backward view of this subject. We all need to hear it and we all need to respond to it.

So please take time to watch this. There is some preamble so if you pick it up at the 4:45 mark, that will be about right.

More comments, hopefully, later on. Thanks.

http://acfcommunity.org/media/messag...excel/what-if/

[Cal]

"God's plan for solving the problems of the world has never been government. It has always been the Church."

"If every church member tithed the Church would collect another $165 billion a year, which would solve the world problems of hunger, thirst, literacy, mission funding... with $100 billion left over."

[testallthings]

Igzy,

it seems that there are two issues in your posts: giving and solving the problems of the world.

I believe you, and others, have correctly pointed that this is what God demands to all His children. It seems that no one (?) had a problem with this except in how much give. In the O.T. God said to give 10%. In the N. T. there is not such commandment. Some have argued (not those who have posted here) that the New Testament believers should offer more than those under the Law.

The second issue is the following:

Originally Posted by Igzy

"God's plan for solving the problems of the world has never been government. It has always been the Church."

"If every church member tithed the Church would collect another $165 billion a year, which would solve the world problems of hunger, thirst, literacy, mission funding... with $100 billion left over."

While there is strong evidence from the Bible to support the first point (giving), I do not see that God's plan for the Church is to solve the problems of the world. If the Church cannot solve its own problems, and there are so many, how could her help others? One of the exception is the Roman Catholic Church which, by the way, is a State, too.

There are examples of individuals who have helped to solve some problems of the world (G. Mueller, H. Taylor), based on their absolute dependence on God (without advertising their needs). I believe works of faith of some Christians, who feels so under the clear direction of God should have all the support, from other like minded Christians, they “deserve”. But for the Church as such, I do not see, from the N.T., that this is God's plan.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by testallthings

While there is strong evidence from the Bible to support the first point (giving), I do not see that God's plan for the Church is to solve the problems of the world. If the Church cannot solve its own problems, and there are so many, how could her help others?

Thanks for your thoughts. The point above seems to be similar to the idea that we should not help others until we've taken care of ourselves. This is the very reason some people never give. The poor widow gave out of her poverty, that's why the Lord praised her. So should we.

My church, ACF, was in debt when we began moving toward giving away 50% of money collected in offerings to other ministries and needs. We paid off our debts when we hit around 25% or so. Now we give away 50% and are not in need.*

This is God's REAL economy.

*Please note that ACF is in an upper middle class community. We have lots of members who can afford to give a lot. Still only about 18% give significantly.

[HERn]

OK. Thanks for the second post, I see your point now.
-

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

OK. Thanks for the second post, I see your point now.

The reason I didn't specify my point was that I wanted people to actually watch the video.

But here's my basic thought: The LCM's view of the Church as the testimony of Jesus is warped. To them, the Church just "shines" with "the glory of God," but has no effect on the world. That's pretty impotent shining! But we are to be salt and light to the world, and salt and light are supposed to have an effect of changing things.

This doesn't meant the satanic system changes. It won't. But it does mean the Church can have a positive impact on culture and conditions, and by doing so many hearts can be softened to God. Think about it, the Church has already had a major effect on history. Democracy as we know it likely would never have appeared without the Church.

Yet, in the LCM we were really taught, for all practical purpose, to hide our light under a bushel. The LCM is practically invisible--one reason being that the world cannot relate to anything it does. Its mission, service and approach are all abstract and impractical. It doesn't really do much. In fact, it actually discourages helping the poor and other acts of service which could further the gospel.

I myself had been greatly hindered from simply serving people with my time and money because I thought that was "natural," not spiritual. The exact opposite is true. Ironically, giving up our time and money for the kingdom, supporting ministries that actually impact lives practically, so that people can see the practical love of God, is the most spiritual thing we can do!

I used to think trying to help the world was a waste of time, because the age is going to end anyway. But the age is going to end after the Church is raptured, when those who refuse to see how God used the Church for good are left behind and judgment comes. But who knows what good the Church can and is supposed to do before that time? Certainly Christ is not coming back for a Bride who is just sitting in her boudoir brushing her hair and reflecting on her own beauty. Not Jesus. He's a man of action and he surely expects his Bride to be a woman of action.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Certainly Christ is not coming back for a Bride who is just sitting in her boudoir brushing her hair and reflecting on her own beauty. Not Jesus. He's a man of action and he surely expects his Bride to be a woman of action.

Ha ha! The LCM is captivated by her own beauty! Her every curve and feature are lovely things she loves to behold. But, in the S of S the lover is dark from having labored in the fields under the sun; dark from the labor of righteous living full of good works. The LCM are the ugly stepsisters of Cinderella who continuously beat the real church.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

The LCM are the ugly stepsisters of Cinderella who continuously beat the real church.

Great metaphor!

[TLFisher]

They give away Bibles? Is that the entire Bible or just the New Testament?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

But here's my basic thought: The LCM's view of the Church as the testimony of Jesus is warped. To them, the Church just "shines" with "the glory of God," but has no effect on the world. That's pretty impotent shining! But we are to be salt and light to the world, and salt and light are supposed to have an effect of changing things.

“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet."

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house."
Matthew 5:13-15

I think many of us have a tendency to remember the first part of the verses - "You are the salt of the earth" and "You are the light of the world" - and conveniently forget about a very important part - "no longer good for anything" and "put it under a basket".

"No longer good for anything" indicates loss of original or intended function. "Put it under a basket" is just flat out, purposefully ignoring the function. As Igzy has pointed out, Christian service to our neighbors and others is an essential element of the Christian life. Lots of practical applications have already been brought forth and I heartily agree with them all.
-

I disagree with the "social gospel" and the suggestion that the church is for helping the world even though that is an important and noble thing to do.

Jesus never gave such instructions.

The purpose of the church is clear:

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

[micah6v8]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I disagree with the "social gospel" and the suggestion that the church is for helping the world even though that is an important and noble thing to do.

Jesus never gave such instructions.

The purpose of the church is clear:

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Jesus' words didn't stop at verse 15. His words go on in verses 16-18:-
¹⁵ He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. ¹⁶ Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. ¹⁷ And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; ¹⁸ they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

In the early days, miracles were given to accompany the preaching of gospel so as to support the establishment of the gospel.


Jesus Himself, in his earthly ministry, also did not just preach in vacuum. He healed the sick, fed the hungry etc. His good deeds accompanied His teachings and gave it credibility. Similarly, today the Christian's good manner of life is the way they preach the gospel.

1 Peter 2 v 9-10 is well-known "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."


How to be a priest? How to declare the praises of Him?

Peter answers this in the verses that follow it (from 2 v 11 to 3 v 13), it is by the good manner of life.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I disagree with the "social gospel" and the suggestion that the church is for helping the world even though that is an important and noble thing to do.

Jesus never gave such instructions.

The purpose of the church is clear:

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Evangelical, you may disagree with a "social gospel," but doesn't LSM require you to agree with a "legal gospel?" How many ministries do you know have an on-board legal team named DCP, and require member churches to regularly donate to it? Before you deny my claims, please note that I was church treasurer and was intimately aware of what LSM did to Columbus and Mansfield, Ohio.

If I had to choose whether it is better that a "social gospel" or a "legal gospel" accompany the good news of God's love, I would definitely choose the "social gospel" because it corresponds with Paul's instruction to be "zealous of good works," (please read Titus 2.14) the very reason "He gave Himself for us, redeeming us from all lawlessness, and purifying us to Himself for His own possession."

I won't mention all the verses that warn us about suing others.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, you may disagree with a "social gospel," but doesn't LSM require you to agree with a "legal gospel?" How many ministries do you know have an on-board legal team named DCP, and require member churches to regularly donate to it? Before you deny my claims, please note that I was church treasurer and was intimately aware of what LSM did to Columbus and Mansfield, Ohio.

If I had to choose whether it is better that a "social gospel" or a "legal gospel" accompany the good news of God's love, I would definitely choose the "social gospel" because it corresponds with Paul's instruction to be "zealous of good works," (please read Titus 2.14) the very reason "He gave Himself for us, redeeming us from all lawlessness, and purifying us to Himself for His own possession."

I won't mention all the verses that warn us about suing others.

I don't see what the abusive behavior has to do with your view of the gospel. Don't you have a Bible? Fact of the matter is that biblically speaking, the gospel is primarily the preaching of the Gospel and not solving the world's problems.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't see what the abusive behavior has to do with your view of the gospel. Don't you have a Bible? Fact of the matter is that biblically speaking, the gospel is primarily the preaching of the Gospel and not solving the world's problems.

Evangelical, you protested what you called a "social gospel," to which I responded that acc. to the Bible, a social gospel was far superior to a "legal gospel," which you are also subscribing to by your loyalty to LSM. It is entirely reasonable that what you call a "social gospel" is what Jesus and the apostles referred to as loving your neighbor and good works.

"The abusive behavior" you mentioned is the abusive behavior exhibited far too often by LSM and DCP. It is the reason why I left after 30 years. LSM had become no different than the Pharisees of old, claiming to be the sole caretakers of all the things of God, yet bringing under subjection all those connected with them.

Whether the church "solves the world's problems" is not the thrust of the Biblical commands to good works. Good works help people, those people that God loves. Your comment here is disingenuous by creating a straw man argument, and then refuting it.

The LC's emphasize loving one another within their churches, which is great, but misses much of the Biblical directive. Jesus said, "If you love those who love you, what thanks is it to you? For even sinners love those who love you. For if you also do good to those who do good to you, what thanks is it to you? Even sinners do the same. " (see Luke 6.32-35) This instruction strikes at the heart of LC "love." They only love those who love them, and love their ministry. They exhibit little love to outsiders, unless they are potential members.

According to these verses, Jesus would consider many LC members no different from sinners, when it comes to loving and doing good to others. The LC even has an unwritten policy to recruit only "good material" from the campuses. This directly contradicts Jesus words, "But love your enemies, do good and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I disagree with the "social gospel" and the suggestion that the church is for helping the world even though that is an important and noble thing to do.

Jesus never gave such instructions.

The purpose of the church is clear:

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Evangelical, Have you ever heard the saying "Preach the gospel. And when necessary use words"?

The "social gospel" is a mischaracterization. As I said in an earlier post, the dichotomy between the spiritual and the natural in this case is an artificial one. Or, more precisely, only those who are falsely spiritual fret about the difference. The truly spiritual simply do whatever it takes, spiritual or natural--that is caring for other's spirits, or souls or bodies, and the things that keep all operating--and don't worry that much about differentiating. God will lead us into balance. But the Bible is clear that if you see someone in need you are supposed to have a heart to help them if you can, not excuse yourself because since you are spiritual helping people practically is beneath you.

The bottom line is the Church is supposed to express the nature of God. Is this not a central tenet of the LCM? Does God not care for the practical needs of people? Is this not in his nature? How can you express his nature and not express his practical care for people in some way?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

But the Bible is clear that if you see someone in need you are supposed to have a heart to help them if you can, not excuse yourself because since you are spiritual helping people practically is beneath you.

The bottom line is the Church is supposed to express the nature of God. Is this not a central tenet of the LCM? Does God not care for the practical needs of people? Is this not in his nature? How can you express his nature and not express his practical care for people in some way?

Here it is Witness Lee's false narrative concerning the "Good Samaritan" that misleads LC members. (please read Luke 10.30-37) Lee's message is that Jesus is the "Good Samaritan" and enumerates in footnote 1 of Luke 10.34 all the loving attributes of the "Man-Savior" Jesus Christ. I'm not saying that this is wrong, but Lee's commentary makes the whole story objective, and removes any kind of personal responsibility from the reader.

Thus Lee completely misses the punchline of the Lord's instructive story. The reader thinks he thus knows everything, including the depths of the riches of the hidden meanings overlooked by all others, but misses the most important thing. What does Jesus say? How does He conclude the story? Does He say that He is the real Good Samaritan? No!

"And Jesus said to him, You go and do likewise." Now remember Jesus told this to a certain lawyer who was testing Him, and doing poorly at it, he tried to justify himself. Here the Lord spent no time explaining that he or we should not act out of our natural man. Instead, He was exposing the Jewish leaders for using every excuse possible for not loving their neighbor.

[OBW]

Or said another way, to those who are in Christ, everything is spiritual unless you are simply succumbing to the "old man."

And everything is "in Christ" except to the extent that you choose to act against what you know to be of Christ.

Everything about us reflects Christ to others. Even the mundane. It is unfortunate that when we do poorly, that is what others view as the representation of Christ. When we become raving lunatics screaming against the immorality of the unsaved, we are seen as representing Christ. (I hope that is not any of us.)

Very unlike our example that ate with sinners.

And when we declare that it is not our place to do good deeds for the unsaved, or only for the unsaved that might be able to become saved directly from our efforts, we show a limited understanding of "love your neighbor as yourself."

For many of us (me included) it is fortunate that most of us don't have those cutesy fish symbols on our cars because we should be ashamed of our behavior behind the wheel if the world thought that was what Christians behaved like. Fortunately (and unfortunately) for me, they are uninformed that the extent that my driving remains unreformed is hidden from discovery . . . but I should still do better.

[Cal]

I think it's great that people are chiming in here. Even some lurkers can't resist stepping up and defending the LCM status quo. Please don't think I'm mocking or belittling, but this was exactly what I hoped would happen.

I've been one of the worst offenders when it comes to not giving. That's the beauty of the whole GIVING paradigm. It exposes us. It's where the rubber meets the road. Consider the following verses:

"It is more blessed to GIVE than to receive."

"God so loved the world that he GAVE..."

God gives. That's his nature. At its core love is giving.

"Greater love has no man than this: that he lay down (GIVES up) his life for his friends."

If you don't get giving you don't get God.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Evangelical, Have you ever heard the saying "Preach the gospel. And when necessary use words"?

The "social gospel" is a mischaracterization. As I said in an earlier post, the dichotomy between the spiritual and the natural in this case is an artificial one. Or, more precisely, only those who are falsely spiritual fret about the difference. The truly spiritual simply do whatever it takes, spiritual or natural--that is caring for other's spirits, or souls or bodies, and the things that keep all operating--and don't worry that much about differentiating. God will lead us into balance. But the Bible is clear that if you see someone in need you are supposed to have a heart to help them if you can, not excuse yourself because since you are spiritual helping people practically is beneath you.

The bottom line is the Church is supposed to express the nature of God. Is this not a central tenet of the LCM? Does God not care for the practical needs of people? Is this not in his nature? How can you express his nature and not express his practical care for people in some way?

"If every church member tithed the Church would collect another $165 billion a year, which would solve the world problems of hunger, thirst, literacy, mission funding... with $100 billion left over."

I don't believe that church members tithing is the problem, it is the church leadership who choose to spend the money on themselves and not these good deeds that you mentioned.

The Gospel is the core business of the church just like selling hamburgers is the core business of Macdonalds and selling fried chicken is the core business of KFC.

In my experience of the local churches I have only experienced care and concern of my whole being. This is a group who are always giving you food and invite you for meals and if you need help with your house painted or car fixed, there is someone willing to lend a hand. In fact I think it is a bit too helpful and too concerned. Unlike denominations where you can attend a service and leave without anyone speaking with you.

I don't believe Witness Lee have ever made such distinction between practical needs and spiritual needs and said we should disregard one for the other. In the teachings, often, both Christ's humanity and his divinity are stressed, in so-called shepherding and nourishing. Maybe some have, and this is what your negative experiences are based upon. But I find no evidence from this in the teachings or my experiences.