From a concerned parent

[Betsy]

My little Renee (lr) has become entangled with the church the last few years. To stay informed, I have also become involved with spending time in going to meetings and taking the FTTA-online etc., but I have remained an outsider. I can see why the church focuses on recruiting young people -- they are more gullible and naive than those who are no longer young.

At first I was pleased for lr. Having a strong faith is a good thing, and having a church life to express it is a good thing. Now I'm mostly concerned if or how much damage it can do. It's hard for me to relate as I don't have the subjective experience of any emotional attachment to this LSM ministry, but I can see on this forum how much former members have been hurt.

I first saw the LSM church in a new light with red flags waving, when lr asked me to order some recovery version Bibles on Amazon. Out of habit, I read some reviews, including the negative ones before I order anything and also because I was curious what anyone could say against a Bible. Well I got a tome of information about plagiarism, hundreds of examples cited in the notes of the recovery version. Well, the good thing is there's a lot of great stuff in those notes, personally selected by WL from many great Christian minds throughout the 1800s and earlier. The bad thing is that WL has copyrighted these notes as his own ideas.

This started what turned out to be the tip of the iceberg for WL et.al. I've learned not to mention anything against any of it because it only generates an angry and defensive response, so instead I spend a lot of time cringing silently. Anyway, the old saying is true, one catches a lot more with honey than with vinegar.

So my question is does anyone know of a good alternative, with seemingly endless audio and revival booklets as can be found with the LSM? I like Grace Gems and Enduringword.com, but they lack any physical presence. When we fellowship, I make a point to read the Bible first instead of the morning revival or life-studies, but I can tell they barely tolerate this. I wish I could better demonstrate my faith but I seem no match for the insincerity and contrivance of the LSM. What would be the most painless way to untangle a saint?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Renee

I wish I could better demonstrate my faith but I seem no match for the insincerity and contrivance of the LSM. What would be the most painless way to untangle a saint?

"Whatever is good and true and pure, think on these things." Remember that you can't ask someone to take a path that you yourself are not on. So focus on the Way, not on the situation.

To find the Way, ask your Father in heaven to show you someone ahead of you on the path of life. Then follow them. If you by faith place your feet on the path, the Holy Spirit will meet you there. Then your daughter will also see the light.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Renee

So my question is does anyone know of a good alternative, with seemingly endless audio and revival booklets as can be found with the LSM? I like Grace Gems and Enduringword.com, but they lack any physical presence. When we fellowship, I make a point to read the Bible first instead of the morning revival or life-studies, but I can tell they barely tolerate this. I wish I could better demonstrate my faith but I seem no match for the insincerity and contrivance of the LSM. What would be the most painless way to untangle a saint?

I doubt you can pry her out, but you might be able to pray her out. Not too many groups provide the social, psychological, and spiritual package the recovery markets. If lr is a college student she might benefit from one of the non-LSM campus groups like The Navigators, Cru (used to be Campus Crusade for Christ), Baptist or Methodist or some other denominational college group.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Renee

Well I got a tome of information about plagiarism, hundreds of examples cited in the notes of the recovery version. Well, the good thing is there's a lot of great stuff in those notes, personally selected by WL from many great Christian minds throughout the 1800s and earlier. The bad thing is that WL has copyrighted these notes as his own ideas.

At best Lee and company were very sloppy in acknowledging sources, at worst they were plagiarists. My take on Lee is that if there is anything useful in his voluminous writings it was NOT unique to him; and whatever teaching is unique to Lee should be avoided as potential heresy.

For bible teaching, I would check out torahclass.com. The teaching is fantastic, thorough, and quenches the thirst to understand God's word in a systematic way. Understanding the word from it's original hebrew context and learning to take the commands in the OT seriously was actually quite liberating for me in my journey away from the LC. Even something as trivial as what to eat, as many in the LC can relate to, becomes entangled with this corrupted notion of "authority" that is promulgated in the LC as God's ordained system, whereas all we really need to do is read God's word and do what it says, not add to it or take away from it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

. . . all we really need to do is read God's word and do what it says, not add to it or take away from it.

I would phrase it a bit differently. As a Christian, all I really need to do is read God's word, and by faith I see Jesus doing what it says, yes down to the proverbial jot and tittle, and by faith I follow. Yes that means doing what it says; not being hearers only (or worse, ignorers) of God's word, but doers.

Lee, as "God's oracle" took away a lot from the text, those parts which conflicted with his interpretive (i.e. added) "God's economy" metric. So he surely disqualified himself as the go-to source for the seeker.

Back to my earlier, "find someone who inspires you and follow them" comment. It should go without saying, don't be inspired by a self-appointed "prophet for the age" like Witness Lee, or "apostle of the age" as his followers currently claim. Instead, find someone humble enough to be subject to peer review. Lee had no peers, being sufficiently transformed (so he thought) to be above such things. As such he became least in the kingdom, unable to hear or learn from any other.

There are a LOT of scholars out there, who are subject to the critical examinations of each other, who are doing the equivalent of "meditating on the Word both day and night." As one who's been around the block a few times, and was a know-it-all back when and have hardened into an incorrigible know-it-all today, I sometimes argue with them as I go over their writings. "What! How can you say that!? Look at Revelation 14!!!"

But I totally respect what they are doing, and I love that Baptists and Angicans and Orthodox and Catholics yes even Jewish scholars are sitting side-by-side and going over the text line by line and precept by precept. The strength is in the collective, not some supposed "giant", and WL never got that. Of course he wouldn't have sold so many books to his captive audience had he permitted this attitude.

And as you sit there with them (figuratively speaking, because I'm usually at home, reading) and watch as these men and women versed in Greek and Hebrew and Ugaritic and whatnot go over the texts, the word will suddenly blossom in front of you. "The unfolding of Your word gives light; it brings understanding to the simple." So true. To be there as the word unfolds is an experience without equal. The Holy Spirit comes and reveals the Son in whom the Father delights, and the Son reveals the Father's house, and suddenly the world is fresh and clean and new and hopeful. Because "God is with us." Emmanuel.

Shalom.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

. . . all we really need to do is read God's word and do what it says, not add to it or take away from it.

I'd like to add something to my previous comments on this post, and hopefully bring it back to the original request, which was, How to help an unwitting person who's been ensnared in the pseudo- "High peak theology" and self-proclaimed "vision of the age"?

Yesterday I was considering the discrepancy, so-called, in the statements that "nobody has ever seen God" versus "Moses talked to God, face-to-face". I did a Google search and came across a few folks who tried to smooth over this apparent dilemma. One of them essentially said, "We're trying to reconcile two separate scriptural passages here, but there's really no discrepancy because the latter passage was written by a confused person, who apparently didn't get the first passage." Now this particular exegesis was written by an amateur on their personal website, and not in a peer-reviewed publication. And of course everyone has a right to an opinion.

But I wanted to make the point: be wary of those who try to explain what the Bible says, by telling you that parts of it are written by people who didn't know what they were talking about! This tells me that the Bible expositor here perhaps values their own ideas more than the Bible itself.

And Lee did this in spades. Look for the many times that he said the writer was expressing "complex sentiments", i.e. "fallen human concepts" were being mixed with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Where did Paul or any of the NT writers ever treat the OT scripture thus, or give license to do so?

So if you want to free your daughter, just ask, When you're listening to a Bible teacher, and the Bible teacher tells you not to pay attention to the Bible because it was written according to "fallen human concepts", where do you draw the line? How do you know that it isn't the Bible teacher who's using fallen human concepts to reject the Word? Just some food for thought.

If the reader is asked to trust the Bible expositor's discernment, and judgment, above those who actually penned scripture, as well as those who later compiled it as canonical, some concern should begin to emerge. Just give voice to this concern, pleasantly and with much grace. Your daughter has a good, functional brain and even though they discourage her from using it, she will.

"Man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word proceeding out of the mouth of God." Don't treasure only those words which are convenient to your hermeneutic. When it says 'every word', I believe it means just what it says - - every word. Don't start telling God what is and isn't valuable. You'll quickly find yourself on the wrong side of the ledger.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by aron

And Lee did this in spades. Look for the many times that he said the writer was expressing "complex sentiments", i.e. "fallen human concepts" were being mixed with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So if you want to free your daughter, just ask, When you're listening to a Bible teacher, and the Bible teacher tells you not to pay attention to the Bible because it was written according to "fallen human concepts", where do you draw the line? How do you know that it isn't the Bible teacher who's using fallen human concepts to reject the Word? Just some food for thought.

Good point, where does one draw the line if the Holy Spirit only inspired part of the Bible? Of course this sounds just like WL, but I've never seen those words from him and lr has never mentioned it. Could you give the reference to where he said "fallen human concepts" were mixed in the writing of the Bible. I know the FTTA lessons state the Book of James was inspired as a negative example, but that's not the same thing. Also the WL interpretation put greater importance on different parts of the Bible compared to others, which again not the same to which you referred.

I notice that the LC in practice discourages Bible reading and studying. WL would say that he'd been studying the Bible for 60 years and so many conditions had to be met before anyone could get the revelations and see the vision. He also said that people needed the Bible to be interpreted to them, otherwise they wouldn't understand. That, combined with pray-reading and then listening to / reading the 25000 pages and 400 books written by WL, leaves precious little time for Bible reading.

This could be my main objection to the LC, because I believe one doesn't have to understand what they are reading in the Bible to be inspired/fed/transformed by it. This doesn't happen with any other book I've ever read, in my experience, and also this was acknowledged in the FTTA-online. But still, they structure Bible reading to no time.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Renee

Could you give the reference to where WL said "fallen human concepts" were mixed in the writing of the Bible.

Originally Posted by aron

And Lee did this in spades. Look for the many times that he said the writer was expressing "complex sentiments", i.e. "fallen human concepts" were being mixed with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit..

I googled "Witness Lee complex sentiments" and the first page had four citations, all from his study of the Psalms. I went into this in some detail in the thread entitled "The Psalms are the Word of Christ", in the "Apologetic discussions" section of this forum.

I'll try to recap: the NT clearly says that all scripture is God-breathed and profitable; Jesus said that man doesn't live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God; the apostle wrote that the prophets were given words inspired by the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:21). Nowhere do I see the corollary warning us to stay away from the "low" or "fallen" parts of scripture, written by sinners according to their "natural concepts". And the Psalms were heavily cited in the NT, as you're probably aware. Yet WL waved them off almost in toto, except where NT usage forced him to accede them as "revelatory of God's Christ." Even then, as in First Peter's quote of "all flesh is like grass" (1:24) he might dismiss it as "natural."

Instead, WL recommended to us "the heart of the divine revelation"; i.e. Paul's epistles to Ephesus, Galatia, Colossae, and Philippi. Look at the footnotes there. One Bible verse might get a page of small print notes from him. Yet Paul in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 recommended singing Psalms, calling them "the words of Christ" and saying that you'd be "filled in Spirit" by so doing. What, isn't Paul's recommendation in "the heart of the divine revelation" not good enough? Or has it been subsumed by today's oracle?

The Psalms were compiled in a specific manner. There's a narrative structure, which can be at least faintly discerned. Psalm 1 talks about the man who loves the word of God and meditates upon it day and night. Like a tree planted by streams of water, giving fruit in season, whose leaf doesn't wither (see e.g. allusions in Revelation to the tree planted by the crystal river, giving fruit each month, whose leaves heal the nations). This is contrasted to the wicked, the scoffers and the mockers, whose fate is utter rejection.

This message seems to resonate quite well with Deuteronomy 17 which says that the King of Israel should have such a relation with God's word. And Psalm 2 confirms this, by saying that God has placed His Anointed (Gk: "Christos") on His holy mountain, and given Him all rule and authority and power. Strong messianic overtones, no? This passage is of course cited heavily in the NT.

But WL's footnotes said that there was a kind of dissonance going on - Psalm 1 was "natural" and Psalm 2 was "revelatory" and so forth. He basically dismissed 3/4 of the 2000 + verses of the Psalms as of no value, except to show people "in their natural minds and not in their regenerated human spirits". So who in the Local Churches wants to pursue Christ in the Psalms, outside of Lee's scanty notes and minimal permissions? And were the compilers of the Psalms really so deluded? And where in the NT reception of Psalms, 40+ citations by my count, do we get permission to think this way?

I'll continue my argument in another post.

[aron]

What follows is my idea on presenting an argument to a LC attendee. You have to be very careful if you point out that their proverbial "emperor has no clothes" because they have an effective defense mechanism. If you say anything that isn't "one" with the "oracle" (i.e. the current speaking of leadership) you'll quickly be dismissed as "negative" or "poisoned." Case closed. Discussion over.

So you have to make your point wisely, and with much grace. First, remember that your relationship with this person is with God, and don't let it be sacrificed at the altar of some objective truth, so-called. The greatest truth is love, and Jesus loved us when we were incapable of apprehending it - we were unlovable, unlovely, and unloving. Yet He came. So be wise in how you approach your fellow, under the LC umbrella; be gentle and with much peace and discernment.

And I might try to imitate Nathan the prophet coming to David. First, Nathan established a proposition regarding behavior, which David fully engaged in, and endorsed. Then Nathan turned the tables: "David, this man is you." First make a proposition which your fellow agrees with, then show them that it applies, here. Your daughter is a logical person; give her a logical proposal.

E.g. Proposition One: All scripture is spiritual and profitable for teaching, edification, enlightenment, spiritual nourishment.

Proposition Two: Jesus said, "David was in Spirit when writing about Me." Mark 12:36.

Proposal: Where, then, do we get the leading to say that David wasn't in Spirit when he was composing his Psalms? That he was communicating merely "fallen human concepts"? I say, Nowhere, is where.

Now, imagine, for a moment, what kind of gospel we'd have today, if the apostle had said, "David's testimony was merely from his natural mind; he thought that God approved of him, he who was a sinner. But David died and was buried like the rest of us. Therefore his words were actually vain." What kind of a teaching is that? Where's the Good News here? And where's the Christ of God?

Instead, the apostle said, "David knew that God had promised him a Seed to come, which would inherit the earth, and reign everlasting, and David was prophesying concerning this One." (See Peter's speech, while standing with the eleven, to the astonished throng on Pentecost day [Acts 2:14-40, esp vv 30,31]).

Now, which kind of a teaching do we prefer, one that values all of God's word, and faintly sees Christ therein, or one that creates an interpretive template which is held so tightly that 'non-conforming scripture' is tossed away? To which do we cling, our teachings or God's word? I myself would rather be somewhat astonished and confused, with God's Bible in my grasp, than to be 'clear' with a truncated, or pruned-away, set of scriptures. What say you?

(Or something like that. Essentially I'd try to make a point, look for agreement or assent, and show that it was relevant to assessing the validity or value of this particular ministry. Is this really the ministry of the age, and "something greater than Paul is here", or is this merely a fallen sinner like you or me, writing according to his natural human concepts?)

[aron]

Sorry to be verbose, but one final point, to follow my two previous posts.

Remember Saul of Tarsus' conversion? Very dramatic. Came from heaven.

True, but the prelude to that, I believe, was long coming. Saul heard the speech of Stephen in Acts 7. He also saw that his face was like that of an angel (6:15). Paul got exposed to the gospel. He heard it again and again, as he entered homes, and dragged them out for punishment (Acts 8:3). And the dying Christians testified to him, of the Lord Jesus Christ, of His kingdom, power and glory.

At some point the incongruity became too great to bear, and he fell down, hearing, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" The disconnect of "doing good by doing bad" became too extreme, and unsupportable.

So my counsel is to establish mutually-assented logic. And if those with whom you converse say something like, "All Scripture is indeed profitable, and are indeed words of spirit and life, unless of course the 'ministry of the age' tells us it's vain", then they've established their position, out loud. Their ears have heard their mouth speak that 'God's current oracle' can contravene the Bible, and its reception in Christian history, and being 'one' with this supposed oracle is greater than what scripture has established concerning itself. . . at some point the disconnect, the incongruity, the illogic of this position will become unbearable, and they'll reject it. So be patient with them, and allow them to state things which seem unsupportable. Don't cover your ears and run away screaming. . . at some point their own conscience will begin to nag at them. The illogic of teaching on the Bible while simultaneously dismissing it will simply become too great.

And remember Stephen's face.

[SteVee]

A lot of really good comments over the past couple of days.

@ Renee
I don't have much time to post this AM. My family and I have been, and will continue to pray for you and your daughter. It grieves me to hear of anyone's resistance to Scripture, since the Word of God is the mind and heart of God, so much so that Christ Jesus Himself is called the Word of God.

Another program on BBN and available on-demand from their App is called "Christian Classics". The narrator, Lynn Brooks, simply reads good books. She has read Pilgrim's Progress - an excellent allegory of the struggles of following Christ to the end. Currently she is reading "The Hiding Place", a book about a Christian family that hid Jews from the Nazis in WWII. This may be a very interesting way for her to hear Scriptural truth in a more indirect way if she is resistant or even hostile to directly reading and discussing the Scripture directly.

The Bible is full of plain truth. Yes there are many things that need us to bridge the cultural, linguistic and historical differences between our internet age and the bronze or Iron Age period that people lived in at the time the various books of the Bible were written, but God wrote it to be plain. That doctrine is called "Perspicuity". Which is a fancy word for clear. When you read most of the posts on this forum, they are pretty clear. So it is with the Bible. The main things are the plain things. "Love the Lord". Love the Saints. Jesus got up in the morning and prayed. Jesus touched someone and healed them. Sin brings death. Before Christ people offered sacrifices to approach God. Christ Himself was the final sacrifice. Many plain truths. Some of the most plain are the "hardest" because they call me to change what I think or do.

Gotta run to work.

Lord Jesus, I petition You for Renee and her daughter. Her child is precious to her and You, more than the rest of us, feel exactly how precious she is. You know what both of them need. I pray that you would continue to protect her daughter from physical harm and exploitation - in or out of the LC. I also ask that You would be magnified as the perfect, sinless all-wise One that You are, and that the Word's of WL and all others would be seen as just the Words of men. I ask because You told us to come boldly to the throne of grace to find grace to help in time of need. Please grant both of them humility so that they could receive abundant grace and truth from You through Your Word. Thank You that You rose because the work of redemption is finished. For You and Your revealed purposes I pray. Amen

[JJ]

I'm also bowing before the Lord this mornining in prayer for Renee and her daughter. Lord! Do send much grace, life supply, clarity, and a love for your word to them. Keep them from the evil one.

[Ohio]

I came from a large Catholic family, and was by no means the most well-behaved kid on the block, but I had a dynamic salvation while reading the Bible in bed after coming home from night school. Everyone, and I mean everyone who knew me, especially my parents, took immediate notice, like the case in Mark 1.27 ...

And they were all amazed, so that they discussed among themselves, saying, What happened? Some new teaching?

Then, after visiting many Christian gatherings, I came across the Church in Cleveland. Many things were so wonderful, but their persistent judgmental attitudes began to spoil my new found loves in Christ.

Soon I went to my first training in Anaheim, which was on the book of Revelations. On the one hand I was so filled in Spirit in all the meetings, that my cursed smoking habit just vanished. That was miraculous! On the other hand, I was so steeped in hatred for Catholicism, that I went back home and condemned my family for their idolatry. The LC constantly harped on separation from everything. Their banner was, "Come out of her My people." They seemed far more interested in me leaving my friends and family than me loving my friends and family.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm also bowing before the Lord this morning in prayer for Renee and her daughter. Lord! Do send much grace, life supply, clarity, and a love for your word to them. Keep them from the evil one.

Amen. There are concerned parents because there is a concerned God. Lord, do preserve Your dear ones from the enemy's attack and usurpation.

[Betsy]

Thank you for the prayers ALL, they are much needed.

I was able to read 2 chapters from a real Bible with my daughter yesterday, 2 Peter 2, 3, but then she became restless and wanted to pray read, which repetition seems more like self-hypnosis. I objected, but she then kind of pray read a chapter from Colossians and did it very nicely -- not all the overlapping repeated phrases, but rather explaining it as she read it.

Then she said something about doing it in anyway the hearer will enjoy as when in Rome, do it the Roman way etc. This reflected Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 9:21 "To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some of them. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings...."

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Renee

Thank you for the prayers ALL, they are much needed.

I was able to read 2 chapters from a real Bible with my daughter yesterday, 2 Peter 2, 3, but then she became restless and wanted to pray read, which repetition seems more like self-hypnosis. I objected, but she then kind of pray read a chapter from Colossians and did it very nicely -- not all the overlapping repeated phrases, but rather explaining it as she read it.

Then she said something about doing it in anyway the hearer will enjoy as when in Rome, do it the Roman way etc. This reflected Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 9:21 "To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some of them. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings...."

Sounds like a great and blessed time! Praise God! Nothing to fear about praying with God's Word for sure. That's part of taking up the whole armor of God (Eph. 6:18-19).

[aron]

Originally Posted by Renee

l was able to read 2 chapters from a real Bible with my daughter yesterday, 2 Peter 2, 3, but then she became restless and wanted to pray read . . . a chapter from Colossians and did it very nicely -- not all the overlapping repeated phrases, but rather explaining it as she read it.

2 Peter 3:1,2 points to the commands of Jesus Christ, initially given to the apostles, and the words of the prophets, as a stimulus to our healthy thinking. I would stress that ALL of the epistles did this.

Instead we got distracted by the "God's economy" metric, overlaid upon scripture, to fixate on some of the epistles, praying over them as if they were magical elixers in and of themselves, while ignoring and even rejecting (!) the OT prophets and Jesus' plain, public teaching to love one another, live properly, etc.

[SteVee]

Originally Posted by Renee

Thank you for the prayers ALL, they are much needed.

I was able to read 2 chapters from a real Bible with my daughter yesterday, 2 Peter 2, 3, but then she became restless and wanted to pray read, which repetition seems more like self-hypnosis. I objected, but she then kind of pray read a chapter from Colossians and did it very nicely -- not all the overlapping repeated phrases, but rather explaining it as she read it.

Then she said something about doing it in anyway the hearer will enjoy as when in Rome, do it the Roman way etc. This reflected Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 9:21 "To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some of them. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings...."

Praise the Lord!

I wouldn't fret about whether you read one chapter or ten, if both of you are genuinely interacting with the Word of God, that is wonderful. My family is on a through the Bible in a year reading plan, but we don't do it on Sundays and Wednesdays, and we usually miss some other day, and sometimes people are tired and cranky so we only read one chapter ... Doesn't sound super-spiritual, huh? What we do, is try to make sure that - one chapter or many - we think through what we're reading. What do we learn about our God today? About ourselves, about our sin, His holiness, His mercy, His character, His ways ... Is there anything we need to confess or repent of? Something new to praise Him for?

We can't change anybody, but we can love them and, as parents, provide an atmosphere conducive to spiritual growth. We'll continue in prayer for you and "little Renee."

"There is one God and one mediator between God and men. The Man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for all ..." 1 Timothy 2:5,6

Love in Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by SteVee

We can't change anybody, but we can love them and, as parents, provide an atmosphere conducive to spiritual growth.

Leadership means to lead, to go before. Today, Leaders so-called sit in air-conditioned offices while the followers so-called go out and do the dirty work, and brave the danger. In the old days, the king was at the head of the army. David led Israel because he faced Goliath, not because he sat in a tent somewhere and pretended to be something.

The exemplar, of course, is Jesus Christ, who lowered Himself beneath all and thus became the Leader, Savior, and Captain of all. He wasn't a soft man who sat on soft cushions in a velvety tent, speaking smooth words.

In our journey with the Bible, the leader goes into the narrative. I argue that the apostles in the NT were leaders because they took the lead to show that Jesus was the promised Messiah, of whom all God-seekers and God-fearers had been hoping, since time immemorial. Again and again the NT record shows the apostles holding up the agreed-upon scripture (what we today call the OT) and pointing out that this prophetic utterance found its fulfillment in Jesus the Nazarene.

Over time, the NT record became recognized as authoritative in its own right, without needing the appeal to extant (OT) scriptures and thus those preceding scriptures often became in usage merely quaint historical objects, or even derided as valueless - "the law saves no one", etc.

Our job today is to restore the narrative to its original force, one which caused thousands to throng before Peter and the eleven in repentance. It is a holistic vision. Lee's "God's economy" narrative seemed an improvement over its Protestant precursors, since, for example, it included the obsessively detailed Brethren Christological types in the OT among its armamentarium. However, the survival of Lee's corpus entailed ignoring a lot of the Bible. Anything that couldn't line up with his hermeneutic was considered "low", "fallen", and "natural". Instead of the man Jesus we got a vague and amorphous "Christ", and instead of salvation, an even more generic "Process". The gospel, so-called, became whatever the Lee the Ascended Master wanted it to be, and the Bible became a mere prop, to be waved as necessary and dropped as necessary.

And that's merely the teaching! Not to mention the plain words of counsel in the NT, of rightness and decency. If we'd held the plain counsel of the NT, Lee would have been disqualified, since Daystar revealed him as a lover of money. Also, his promoting his admittedly "unspiritual" son to power and prominence showed that he wasn't qualified to be a local elder, per Titus 1:6, much less an apostle, much less "the" apostle (assuming such title exists).

No, forget behavior, let's just look at teaching. A teaching which requires a truncated scripture for its survival and prosperity isn't a teaching we want. And I argue that the provision of an environment for our progeny that's conducive to their spiritual survival is one where we plunge headlong into scripture. All of it. If we drown we drown. (Esth 4:16; Rom 14:8; Acts 21:13). We can have boldness because we trust that #1 God is good and will not lead us astray, and #2 we have the counsel of the Body of Christ. In the counsel of many voices is not confusion, as Lee's Blended Lieutenants said, but is wisdom and safety (Prov 11:4, 15:22, 20:18).

If our young companions see us being enthralled by the unfolding narrative - "the unfolding of Your word brings life" - they'll see the open door: "Behold I've placed before you an open door, which no one can shut." Lee tried to shut the door on Philadelphia, saying that all was recovered and only reviewing the "high peak truths" was left. His Minions repeated this: just implement the Plan of the Wise Master Builder and the Lord will return. We heard that for 30 years, and the Bible sat waiting. Waiting for those whose hearts were not shut. Fo those who'd question, challenge, and learn.

God-fearing and God-seeking ones through the ages were a shadow and reflection of the seeking God. (See e.g. John 4:23) And this mutual seeking found fulfillment in Jesus the Nazarene, God's delight and man's hope. May this revealed vision draw us deeper into the word, and may our own seeking of unfound depths and heights and breadths become a pattern and pathway for others.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

If we'd held the plain counsel of the NT, Lee would have been disqualified, since Daystar revealed him as a lover of money. . .

I don't think Daystar was an isolated incident, either, but one of a pattern of incidents. Didn't Lee also get caught trying to smuggle gold out of the Philippines? Whatever happened to the Lord's command to His evangelistic vanguard: "Don't carry any gold or silver or copper in your belts"? (Matt 10:9).

As always, the "rules" were for the rank-and-file, not for God's Special Anointed Prophet. He made up his own rules as he went along.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't think Daystar was an isolated incident, either, but one of a pattern of incidents. Didn't Lee also get caught trying to smuggle gold out of the Philippines? Whatever happened to the Lord's command to His evangelistic vanguard: "Don't carry any gold or silver or copper in your belts"? (Matt 10:9).

As always, the "rules" were for the rank-and-file, not for God's Special Anointed Prophet. He made up his own rules as he went along.

More egregious to me was the "little savers" scheme. I don't remember its exact name, but it surfaced after Daystar in an attempt to confiscate the savings of the saints throughout the Recovery.

Once the money gets taken from them, the investors are told to "consider it an offering."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

More egregious to me was the "little savers" scheme. I don't remember its exact name, but it surfaced after Daystar in an attempt to confiscate the savings of the saints throughout the Recovery.

Once the money gets taken from them, the investors are told to "consider it an offering."

Originally Posted by Hope

In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.

After a meeting, we permitted brother Chang to present his vitamin business. I bought some.

Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

I never mentioned Linko in Dallas but it was a big deal in Irving complete with models of the buildings to be built etc. Because the church in Dallas would not join in the cheerleading and fund raising from Irving there was more and more a strained relationship. Dallas did give money for Irving and the goal and purpose for the facility was shared. Benson came over a time or two and did some fund raising for that hall after a Lord’s table.

Usually Dallas had a sizable surplus in our bank accounts. On three occasions in Texas area elders meetings Benson and Ray put a press on Dallas to release our extra funds for Irving and LSM. We said no each time as our conscience did not agree that the money had been given by the saints for the questionable projects. This put quite a strain on our relationship.

Also see. . . . "Linko" . . . a project named for a district outside Taipei . . .

Originally Posted by Hope

Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

I never supported this project and the young BBs promoted it as a means to humble the elders. Minuro gave a stirring speech at an elders coworkers meeting about how the elders would be blessed if they went to Linko and shoveled dirt. He promised that the Spirit would enliven you as you shoveled dirt and they would be greatly rewarded spiritually if they gave up being an elder and went to Linko to shovel dirt.

Just another boondoggle. Just another ridiculous project proposed by the office and the deputy authority. How things had changed!! Yet the Daystar fiasco was the beginning in the USA of one scheme after another which was divinely judged.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

More egregious to me was the "little savers" scheme. I don't remember its exact name, but it surfaced after Daystar in an attempt to confiscate the savings of the saints throughout the Recovery.

Once the money gets taken from them, the investors are told to "consider it an offering."

Originally Posted by aron

I don't think Daystar was an isolated incident, either, but one of a pattern of incidents. Didn't Lee also get caught trying to smuggle gold out of the Philippines?

That is so sad and not surprising.....fleecing the virginal flock.

So my lr came in and asked me what God has been telling me lately. I said, not much, but I have been reading the works of Watchman Née and Witness Lee. She likes it most when I read them. So she wanted to know what I'd been reading, so I read some of the quotes kindly provided by Indiana as follows!

"The worker to whom God has given fresh light upon His truth should encourage all who receive that truth to swell the ranks of the local church, not to range themselves around him. Otherwise, the churches will be made to serve the ministry, not the ministry the churches, and the “churches” established will be ministerial “churches,” not local ones. The sphere of a church is not the sphere of any ministry, but the sphere of the locality. Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the beginning of a new denomination.”
(The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee).

"If we wish to maintain a scriptural position, then we must see to it that the churches we found in various places only represent localities, not doctrines. If our “church” is not separated from other children of God on the ground of locality alone, but stands for the propagation of some particular doctrine, then we are decidedly a sect, however true to the Word of God our teaching may be..."
(Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 113-114).

“The greater our gift is, the greater is the danger that we will take over the church and keep it in our hands. This will greatly damage the church life. We must learn not only how to minister in the local church, but also how to keep our hands off the church. This is not easy. The local church is not our personal enterprise. The local church is the property of the local saints, not some worker’s business. Some gifted persons put a local church in their pocket. Oh, this is a real problem!"

“All the local saints must realize that the local church is their church. If the local saints are not clear concerning this, they will allow a gifted person to take the local churches into his own hands and treat it as his personal property. Then the entire church life will be finished. The local churches belong to the local saints. The gifted persons are just the means to perfect the saints to function; they are only the instruments used by the Lord to build up the churches."

"Consider the situation in Christianity today. Look at the situation even from the time of the Reformation: four or five hundred years have passed, and it is still basically the same. Whenever a gifted person is raised up, a certain kind of work is established. I establish my work, you establish your work, he establishes his work. Then the church is gone. This is the source of all the divisions. However, if one gifted brother comes to build a local church, and a second gifted brother comes to build up the same church, there will be no division. All the work must be for the church, not for the workers. The ministry should be for the church; the church should never be for the ministry. We must be exceedingly clear concerning this principle. We must drop all wrong practices. A gifted brother should keep his hands off the local church. Although a gifted brother may sometimes not speak openly in a way of ministry, yet he still may quietly maneuver behind the scenes. Any such maneuvering damages the church. All gifts and gifted persons must be entirely for the local church. This is a tremendously vital matter.”
(W.L., The Vision of God’s Building, 1964)

Then lr said of course Christ is the center, and I let it go at that since she did listen to the above. Then she said of course the ministry is for the churches, Ron Kangas only makes $1200/mo and when he goes on vacation with his family he has to use a tent because he is so poor. I couldn't resist showing her the 2013 tax returns where is salary is listed at 93K / year. She wasn't so happy about that, but then decided he deserved a living wage, although she expressed a concern about all the saints being returned from Europe since there was no more money to support their work.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Renee

That is so sad and not surprising.....fleecing the virginal flock.

So my lr came in and asked me what God has been telling me lately. I said, not much, but I have been reading the works of Watchman Née and Witness Lee. She likes it most when I read them. So she wanted to know what I'd been reading, so I read some of the quotes kindly provided by Indiana as follows!

The worker to whom God has given fresh light upon His truth should encourage all who receive that truth to swell the ranks of the local church, not to range themselves around him. Otherwise, the churches will be made to serve the ministry, not the ministry the churches, and the “churches” established will be ministerial “churches,” not local ones. The sphere of a church is not the sphere of any ministry, but the sphere of the locality. Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee).
If we wish to maintain a scriptural position, then we must see to it that the churches we found in various places only represent localities, not doctrines. If our “church” is not separated from other children of God on the ground of locality alone, but stands for the propagation of some particular doctrine, then we are decidedly a sect, however true to the Word of God our teaching may be... (Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 113-114).

“The greater our gift is, the greater is the danger that we will take over the church and keep it in our hands. This will greatly damage the church life. We must learn not only how to minister in the local church, but also how to keep our hands off the church. This is not easy. The local church is not our personal enterprise. The local church is the property of the local saints, not some worker’s business. Some gifted persons put a local church in their pocket. Oh, this is a real problem!
“All the local saints must realize that the local church is their church. If the local saints are not clear concerning this, they will allow a gifted person to take the local churches into his own hands and treat it as his personal property. Then the entire church life will be finished. The local churches belong to the local saints. The gifted persons are just the means to perfect the saints to function; they are only the instruments used by the Lord to build up the churches.

Consider the situation in Christianity today. Look at the situation even from the time of the Reformation: four or five hundred years have passed, and it is still basically the same. Whenever a gifted person is raised up, a certain kind of work is established. I establish my work, you establish your work, he establishes his work. Then the church is gone. This is the source of all the divisions. However, if one gifted brother comes to build a local church, and a second gifted brother comes to build up the same church, there will be no division. All the work must be for the church, not for the workers. The ministry should be for the church; the church should never be for the ministry. We must be exceedingly clear concerning this principle. We must drop all wrong practices. A gifted brother should keep his hands off the local church. Although a gifted brother may sometimes not speak openly in a way of ministry, yet he still may quietly maneuver behind the scenes. Any such maneuvering damages the church. All gifts and gifted persons must be entirely for the local church. This is a tremendously vital matter.” (W.L., The Vision of God’s Building, 1964)

Then lr said of course Christ is the center, and I let it go at that since she did listen to the above. Then she said of course the ministry is for the churches, Ron Kangas only makes $1200/mo and when he goes on vacation with his family he has to use a tent because he is so poor. I couldn't resist showing her the 2013 tax returns where is salary is listed at 93K / year. She wasn't so happy about that, but then decided he deserved a living wage, although she expressed a concern about all the saints being returned from Europe since there was no more money to support their work.

Hi Renee, LR said that Christ is the center in the "local churches"; yes, but the problem is as follows:


The Normal Christian Church Life - Watchman Nee

“Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or
creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the
believers of different places, then because the center of such a church
federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than
local. And, whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced
by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest.
The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have
another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second
center becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to
stress what we have in common with others; we always stress what is
ours in particular. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but
any company of believers that has a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a
creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that
center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine
who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines
the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those
who attach themselves to it from those who do not.
Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will
create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that
center and excludes those who do not. This dividing line will destroy the
God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very
nature of the churches of God.” (Nee, Normal Christian Church Life, p. 184)

But LR is facing other problems, the salary discrepancy for one, concerning RK - He was making 80k a few years ago; we saw that report. And, for the saints in Europe to have to come back is a sad note. The churches, esp leaders, prayed and labored much for "the Lord's move to Europe". I would like to know more about this. In Bellevue this year a long-time leader and his wife moved to Houston through fellowship and prayer, because of a burden Houston had to gain blacks for the church. They moved back to Bellevue a month later. The leaders in Houston decided it wasn't yet time.... And, you couldn't find a more qualified couple than they are to go out into the black communities. Both are service-oriented, good with young and old, and he was from "the hood" in Los Angeles, and was a former pro athlete. What happened? No repentances unto life in the leadership for a genuine move of the Lord, to follow the Lamb wherever HE may go".

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I can see why the church focuses on recruiting young people -- they are more gullible and naive than those who are no longer young.

Originally Posted by HERn

Not too many groups provide the social, psychological, and spiritual package the recovery markets.

Not to derail the discussion, but the above quotes are very true. For my part, what helped me out of the LC was this psychological and spiritual "package" being broken - I had a rougher class schedule meaning less time for meetings, I stayed with a friend (whereas before I stayed unhealthily on my own), and I had another former LC member and friend who supported me in whether or not I should leave the LC.

If I can give any advice, it would be to do exactly this and what you've been trying to do: introduce her to other Christian groups, make sure she is not psychologically dependent on the LC, ensure she still has good friends outside the LC, and generally accept her decision while nonetheless making it clear where you stand on the issue.

I know my friend tried never to speak badly of them while I was there, but just knowing that he left for whatever reason (his was their legalism, especially in regards to music) made me think twice. All you need is that seed of doubt.

Edit: I didn't realise the OP is so old. I got confused with another post recently written. I haven't been on the forum in quite a while.

Originally Posted by Betsy

My little Renee (lr) has become entangled with the church the last few years. To stay informed, I have also become involved with spending time in going to meetings and taking the FTTA-online etc., but I have remained an outsider. I can see why the church focuses on recruiting young people -- they are more gullible and naive than those who are no longer young.

At first I was pleased for lr. Having a strong faith is a good thing, and having a church life to express it is a good thing. Now I'm mostly concerned if or how much damage it can do. It's hard for me to relate as I don't have the subjective experience of any emotional attachment to this LSM ministry, but I can see on this forum how much former members have been hurt.

I first saw the LSM church in a new light with red flags waving, when lr asked me to order some recovery version Bibles on Amazon. Out of habit, I read some reviews, including the negative ones before I order anything and also because I was curious what anyone could say against a Bible. Well I got a tome of information about plagiarism, hundreds of examples cited in the notes of the recovery version. Well, the good thing is there's a lot of great stuff in those notes, personally selected by WL from many great Christian minds throughout the 1800s and earlier. The bad thing is that WL has copyrighted these notes as his own ideas.

This started what turned out to be the tip of the iceberg for WL et.al. I've learned not to mention anything against any of it because it only generates an angry and defensive response, so instead I spend a lot of time cringing silently. Anyway, the old saying is true, one catches a lot more with honey than with vinegar.

So my question is does anyone know of a good alternative, with seemingly endless audio and revival booklets as can be found with the LSM? I like Grace Gems and Enduringword.com, but they lack any physical presence. When we fellowship, I make a point to read the Bible first instead of the morning revival or life-studies, but I can tell they barely tolerate this. I wish I could better demonstrate my faith but I seem no match for the insincerity and contrivance of the LSM. What would be the most painless way to untangle a saint?

Dear Mom,
It was helpful to me that my parents were keeping the door open not for them to go in, but for me to come out. I continue to have a strong relationship/connection to God not based on any intermediaries. Also, I wish that my Baptist relatives (aunts, uncles, cousins) who were active in their churches and had a strong Christian walk, had invited me for a visit into their homes, me so that when I did come out of the LC, I had open loving arms to run into. I realize that some children never leave the LC. During a very dark time, I was pulled out into the light directly by God, who holds me in his loving arms. It is a no brainer that God is alive and well. He is with us whether we know it or not or can feel His presence or not, in times filled with light as well as during our darkest nights. The older I get the more I realize how big our God is!
For reading, how about the autobiography of the life of Billy Graham. His message is timeless and his faithfulness to the truth is always constant. Another book I just completed is the biography, My Unforgettable Memories Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, by Lily M. Hsu, MD. I got mine from Amazon. $9.99 Kindle Edition on my i-phone and I just ordered the English hard copy ($35.00). There is also a hard copy in Chinese.

Respectfully,
The überwinder
Member from 1968 (Visited Hall 2 LA as a child with my parents, James Barber sharing about hinds feet in high places, in a house before current meeting hall was built), he was kind of long winded and the room was hot, but then I was only 10. Other locations were in Europe, UK, California, and the Northwest from 1971-1983.)