Re: Brian Houston: Let's Talk Leadership

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill saga holds some very important lessons for the Christian community at large, and even more specifically for our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church, I believe.
Driscoll is an extremely talented and powerful teacher, with a penchant for making the Gospel and Scriptures "culturally relevant" to a younger, unchurched audience. He used this talent and force of personality (mostly in a positive manner) to take a fledgling church of 20-30 people meeting in his apartment, all the way to a multi-site megachurch of over 5,000 - all in his 20s and 30s. Eventually, Driscoll's influence and powerful mega-personality became more powerful and influential to the leadership, and by extension to the rank and file members, than the message and work of the Gospel which they strove to proclaim. All the other sordid details of the Mars Hill meltdown are probably not as important to note, at least for us on LCD, as the fact that the person and work of Mark Driscoll became more important than the Person and Work of Jesus Christ (aka The Gospel).

Now to maybe the most important lesson. At some point Mark Driscoll, either through his own initiative or on the behest of others, created an elder council or board, which was empowered to discipline, and remove from leadership if necessary, any church leader, including Driscoll himself. So when the mega personality of the megachurch became a mega distraction to the main mission of the church (preaching, teaching and practicing the Gospel) Driscoll was placed under mandatory discipline, and rather than coming under the biblically mandated discipline mechanism which he himself helped create, he chose to take the easy way out and resign. There is very little doubt, that without this bilbically mandated discipline mechanism in place, Dricoll would have continued to do what he had apparently been doing for years - ignore the biblical and godly input from the elders of the church. God is not mocked. He will NOT share his glory with another, not even with the the mega personality of a megachurch. He may replace you, or he may just leave your house desolate. Either way he will get the glory.

If you listen to Ron Carpenter it seems he is following the same route or do you think he has taken a different turn? Obviously you may be more sensitive about Mark since he was the founder of Acts 29.

[UntoHim]

Nice to hear from you again Dave but you're off topic stuff belongs over here in lala land

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nice to hear from you again Dave but you're off topic stuff belongs over here in lala land

I'll take your word for it that it is off topic but both of these individuals are fairly young, both started small, both have been visionaries, both developed huge followings, both developed personality cults, both have had problems in their ministry (even though Driscoll lost his ministry from his Board it seems like that situation might be more like Steve Jobs losing Apple than anything), both are innovators, both came back after issues within their ministry (we can say that Ron's was not of his own making but no one really knows)... Time will tell regarding Driscoll but some of these innovators recover, come back to their ministry after it has difficulty continuing without their founder etc. Again, as I said I am sure you are more sensitive and interested in Driscoll because of his co-founding of Acts 29 but there you have to look beyond the microscope of Driscoll to see parallels in other ministries and other industries to understand not only the person but the scope of the issues. BTW---we might be able to add Watchman Nee into these parallels.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I'll take your word for it that it is off topic but both of these individuals are fairly young, both started small, both have been visionaries, both developed huge followings, both developed personality cults, both have had problems in their ministry (even though Driscoll lost his ministry from his Board it seems like that situation might be more like Steve Jobs losing Apple than anything), both are innovators, both came back after issues within their ministry (we can say that Ron's was not of his own making but no one really knows)... Time will tell regarding Driscoll but some of these innovators recover, come back to their ministry after it has difficulty continuing without their founder etc. Again, as I said I am sure you are more sensitive and interested in Driscoll because of his co-founding of Acts 29 but there you have to look beyond the microscope of Driscoll to see parallels in other ministries and other industries to understand not only the person but the scope of the issues. BTW---we might be able to add Watchman Nee into these parallels.

So for us the cult we were in didn't work out. So ... let's try it again, in another way, following another leader. That doesn't work, well try another. That one doesn't work out, try another ... etc, etc.

What's that they say about the definition of insanity?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

So for us the cult we were in didn't work out. So ... let's try it again, in another way, following another leader. That doesn't work, well try another. That one doesn't work out, try another ... etc, etc.

What's that they say about the definition of insanity?

Unfortunately that seems to be the profile. Some of the followers of WN/WL on this forum became followers of Driscoll but they don't see the parallels. In this case he left them rather than the other way around with WN/WL or maybe Lee did leave us. There are always these saviors and Ron Carpenter who proclaims himself an apostle is just another one. It is one of the maladies of the human race throughout the history of religious belief. It is the problem of the difficulty of thinking for oneself. There is a need in the human condition to latch onto someone who can save us from ourselves. We're all guilty but these guys are just symptoms of the malady.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

There are always these saviors and Ron Carpenter who proclaims himself an apostle is just another one. It is one of the maladies of the human race throughout the history of religious belief. It is the problem of the difficulty of thinking for oneself. There is a need in the human condition to latch onto someone who can save us from ourselves. We're all guilty but these guys are just symptoms of the malady.

I agree that this is appropriate to a Nee/Lee discussion. I read some of the Driscoll/Carpenter stories on the internet, including interviews with the principals, and it was readily apparent that they could only talk about 3 things: Me, me, and me. It looked like the kingdom of self writ large, and it's rather instructive how many people climbed on board before the whole thing imploded.

Here's a snippet on Driscoll:

Originally Posted by Seattle Times

For years the edgy, blue-jeaned, hipster preacher used charisma and combativeness to barrel through turmoil, once bragging that he’d mow down all who questioned his vision: “There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done,” he once said in a meeting. “You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus.”

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...s-hill-church/

Driscoll would snowball people with charm, and bully those who wavered. Those who couldn't get on the Driscoll bus got exiled. Members were told to avoid them. And Carpenter, if possible, seems even more extreme. Self-absorbed and narcissistic. These guys shouldn't have been leading a Bible study, much less a church. And the fact that they got so big before they self-destructed, as Dave said, tells us a lot about ourselves as well. We'd do well to look in the mirror, here. These examples, and these stories are about us, and our experiences, as well.