Choosing to See No Iniquity in Israel

[Indiana]

A brother who had condemned my “slanderous websites” had apologized to me when we crossed paths one evening. He said, “I don’t know, I just don’t know”. I followed up with an email to him a few days later and he responded reminding me that God sees no iniquity in Israel…


twoturmoils.com/ChoosingtoSeeNoIniquityinIsrael.pdf

[Ohio]

In Steve's article, he quotes these comments from a friend of his in the LC's ...

The time that I do have I must spend in the current ministry, which is building up the Body of Christ. I don't have time to look back at the past. As brother Lee made clear long ago, we would be foolish to look for bones and feathers when there is fresh meat to eat.

If you feel it your calling to do that, then please don't involve me in your endeavor. From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church. If the Lord doesn't see it, then I also will choose to not see iniquity.

I was this way myself, since I spent my best 30 years in the Recovery, so I can readily understand this dear brother quite well.

But let's look at what we can conclude from what Steve's friend has told us ...

• Lee has convinced us that only his ministry is for the "building up of the body of Christ"
• Lee convinced us that only his ministry was "fresh meat to eat"
• Why is it that Lee could regularly condemn all of Christianity, and no one dared to challenge him about eating all the "bones and feathers" there?
• How did Lee ever convince us that it was OK to constantly "see iniquity" in the body of Christ, but not in his Recovery?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In Steve's article, he quotes these comments from a friend of his in the LC's ...
I was this way myself, since I spent my best 30 years in the Recovery, so I can readily understand this dear brother quite well.

But let's look at what we can conclude from what Steve's friend has told us ...

• Lee has convinced us that only his ministry is for the "building up of the body of Christ"
• Lee convinced us that only his ministry was "fresh meat to eat"
• Why is it that Lee could regularly condemn all of Christianity, and no one dared to challenge him about eating all the "bones and feathers" there?
• How did Lee ever convince us that it was OK to constantly "see iniquity" in the body of Christ, but not in his Recovery?

Good points Ohio. And, as UntoHim says, they only know to defend the indefensible. This, in fact, is how they are trained. But Jerry is a brother who did concede a bit after his first email.

Jerry's first email 2010

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out
that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you
maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding
at least eight coworkers and several elders.

"Hearing about evidence such as a nearly two inch stack of emails that you wrote regarding Joel
Kennon, and the fact that you maintain much contact with ones who oppose the Lord’s Recovery
such as John Ingalls, leaves me no alternative but to discontinue my contact with you.

"Regardless of what new ones you want to introduce to me, there is no way I can have fellowship
with you. Your behavior is divisive, and you have not shown any willingness to repent. If you
reply that these facts are not true, then I’ll only believe that after you’ve taken down your
slanderous web sites and come face to face with Sherman and Joel and the other elders in Seattle
and Bellevue and retract the materials you have written. [My emphasis]

"You told me that you want to be allowed to fellowship with the church in Bellevue, yet
your actions tell another story. I have given the Lord and His Recovery thirty seven years of my
life, and there is no other life I desire to live. Don’t bother sending me any more emails. I’m
just going to delete them anyways. J. M. Dec 2010

"Jerry admitted that he had not read my writings before sending me that email. When we again met – sovereignly - four months later, I confronted him about his email. He had read some of my material by this time and within minutes offered an apology to me for his rush to judgment in his email, and said, “I don’t know; I just don’t know”. That is true. Without thorough investigation, no one, including the leaders know."

"Still your brother in Christ, (Jerry's email was included here at the end of a letter to Ray, an elder)

"Steve Isitt
June 16, 2013"
................................................

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Jerry's first email 2010

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding at least eight coworkers and several elders.

Regardless of what new ones you want to introduce to me, there is no way I can have fellowship with you. Your behavior is divisive, and you have not shown any willingness to repent. If you reply that these facts are not true, then I’ll only believe that after you’ve taken down your
slanderous web sites and come face to face with Sherman and Joel and the other elders in Seattle and Bellevue and retract the materials you have written. [My emphasis]

You told me that you want to be allowed to fellowship with the church in Bellevue, yet your actions tell another story. I have given the Lord and His Recovery thirty seven years of my life, and there is no other life I desire to live. Don’t bother sending me any more emails. I’m just going to delete them anyways. J. M. Dec 2010

I remember Jerry M. from Cleveland. He is a dear brother who loves the Lord and his people, but sorry to say ... he keeps drinking that Kool-Aid without reading the ingredients.

If Jerry M. (originally from Milwaukee, and also was in Kent) feels this strongly about Steve Isitt, I can't imagine how he feels about Titus Chu, all the elders and workers in the GLA, and all the LC's in the area which were excommunicated by the Blindeds in Anaheim at LSM.

I would like to ask rhetorically whose behavior is the most divisive, and who is in need of repenting the most? I doubt if it is any of these one talented members who have invested their lives in the Recovery. I place the bulk of the responsibility on those rotten leaders at LSM.

the real issue at hand is choosing to see no iniquity in witness lee. it's always about witness lee. It was about witness lee back in the 70s with the max rapaport debacle it was about witness lee with the john ingalls debacle it was about witness lee with the titus chu great lakes debacle. it is never about God or his word. it is always about witness lee. "who do men say that I am"? sadly it is now "who do men say that witness lee is"? what part of personality cult do you people not understand? the biannual training just finished. was the name of anybody else mentioned besides witness lee? Oh maybe watchman nee was mentioned in passing (even though he is the founder of the local church) maybe even the name of jesus Christ was mentioned a few times. whos name is on every book, on every cd on everything? is it jesus Christ? is it even God? no many times no. it is witness lee.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

. . . what part of personality cult do you people not understand? . . .

Amen bro Unregistered. I sure wish you would join. I need backup.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would like to ask rhetorically whose behavior is the most divisive, and who is in need of repenting the most? I doubt if it is any of these one talented members who have invested their lives in the Recovery. I place the bulk of the responsibility on those rotten leaders at LSM.

Exactly Ohio! Actually brothers identified as being divisive (Nigel Tomes, John Ingalls, etc) are actually concerned brothers reacting to divisiveness. There is a common denominator of the late 80's and that of the GLA turmoil. Those currently in the lead at LSM were part of the problem in both turmoils instead of being part of the solution.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding at least eight coworkers and several elders.

If there are such websites full of slander regarding the Lord's Recovery, how come there have not been any legal lawsuits brought forth by DCP? Has there ever been threats of lawsuit by DCP?
Unless DCP knows the websites are truthful and DCP knows they cannot risk brothers being deposed under oath.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In Steve's article, he quotes these comments from a friend of his in the LC's ...
I was this way myself, since I spent my best 30 years in the Recovery, so I can readily understand this dear brother quite well.

But let's look at what we can conclude from what Steve's friend has told us ...

• Lee has convinced us that only his ministry is for the "building up of the body of Christ"
• Lee convinced us that only his ministry was "fresh meat to eat"
• Why is it that Lee could regularly condemn all of Christianity, and no one dared to challenge him about eating all the "bones and feathers" there?
• How did Lee ever convince us that it was OK to constantly "see iniquity" in the body of Christ, but not in his Recovery?

These are some good points. It’s not too difficult to understand why the attitude develops of “choosing to see no iniquity in Israel”. I was definitely of that mindset in the past, and I thought that because the LC was something special, it made it okay to ignore concerns. One of the big issues is, of course, the double standard that Lee applied. He could criticize anyone he chose, but when the criticism was directed at him, all the sudden, it became unacceptable.

[Freedom]

Are you in Anaheim as a spy, investigating whether or not Witness Lee has any "dung"? I cannot live without "dung." To be sure, both "feathers" and "bones" can be found here in Anaheim. The elders have made many "bones." But I would stand, even dance, upon all the "bones" they have made; I would not be so foolish as to eat them.

Three or four of us knew Brother Nee very intimately. He fully opened himself to us, and we knew his imperfections… When a great turmoil was aroused against his ministry, I was not ashamed to say that I was an absolute follower of Brother Nee. I did not care what others said about his mistakes…

How foolish it would be for anyone in the church to devote his time to finding "dung" or stuffing his pockets with "feathers," saying, "This is a 'feather' from that 'chicken' Witness Lee, and these are the 'bones' of the church in Anaheim. Don't you know that the church in Anaheim has made mistakes?" If this is your intention, you are wasting your time…Whatever Witness Lee is, he is what he is. Whether the church is genuine or not, the church is what the church is. Neither the church in Anaheim nor my ministry is afraid of exposure. On the contrary, we appreciate it. But what will you gain by exposing us?

Life-Study of Genesis, Message 88

I had to post the above excerpt, because I remembered coming across it years back when I was reading the LS of Genesis. At the time, it struck me as a bit peculiar, because I had never considered there could be much of any "feathers and bones" in the LC. I was so caught up in what I perceived to be the "good" of the LC, that it didn't occur to me that there would be any reason to concern myself with such matters.

When I read Lee's words now, I see him pushing the notion that everyone was out to find his faults or the faults in the local churches. I really think that I would be hard-pressed to find anyone who has made a sport out of criticizing Lee. As far as I am aware, all of the criticism which has been directed at him and the LCM has been done out of genuine concern to address serious matters related both to doctrine and practices.

I'm sure Lee knew that there was a bit too much "dung" surrounding his ministry, and he needed a way to insulate himself from that. What better way than to tell everyone not to worry about the feathers and bones? Generally speaking, people are often willing to ignore the bad for the greater good of things. Lee knew that, and he took advantage of that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I had to post the excerpt [post #11], because I remembered coming across it years back when I was reading the LS of Genesis. At the time, it struck me as a bit peculiar...

Lee knew that there was a bit too much "dung" surrounding his ministry, and he needed a way to insulate himself from that. What better way than to tell everyone not to worry about the feathers and bones? Generally speaking, people are often willing to ignore the bad for the greater good of things. Lee knew that, and he took advantage of that.

Paul wasn't willing to ignore the bad for the greater good, in writing the Corinthians. "What is this I hear concerning you...?"

Nor in his letter to the Galatians. Paul was willing to see iniquity in Israel, and to address it for what it was.

Likewise James was willing to note partiality among believers, in receiving others according to social status. And James was willing to call it out for what it was.

Actually in the NT record, the greater good seemed to involve pointing out the glaringly obvious. But if someone thinks that the greater good requires people to say, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand", what kind of church is it that they're protecting?

[OBW]

I note that Igzy added two important posts back in July pointing to God's clear observation of Israe's iniquity.

Let's take it one step further. If there is no iniquity in the church, then why the letters in Revelation 2 and 3?

That should be enough to shoot this idea in the head.

[UntoHim]

Typical response from a longtime follower of Witness Lee....quoting scripture totally out of context, because that is how many of Lee's teachings present the scriptures - totally and hopelessly out of context. The fact is that this dear saint probably doesn't even know the context of Numbers 23, only that they are defending the indefensible.

First of all, the context, the ACTUAL context, from which this is coming from is so far removed from the defending of a tiny, insignificant Christian sect (which, by the way, came about 3,500 after Numbers was written) that it really doesn't even deserve a response. But I hail you brother Steve for giving it try!

Secondly, this does bring forth the mindset of the typical Local Churcher - that their teeny, tiny religious organization/sect is actually to be compared to biblical Israel. I mean, if it weren't so sad it would actually be funny. May God have mercy.

[awareness]

We can deny that stink exists til the cows come home, but we can't avoid stink.

It was too stinky for me when I left the church back in early 80s. And whenever I check back with the local church since, it's gotten stinker.

Solution, for the LCer's? Deny harder. Deny deeper. Deny like praying.

How's that working out for you? How's it smell?

[Indiana]

Dear Local Church saints, in initiating this thread, it is not my intention to offend you as Local Church members, but to bring attention to serious concerns that have existed for far too long.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Dear Local Church saints, in initiating this thread, it is not my intention to offend you as Local Church members, but to bring attention to serious concerns that have existed for far too long. If anyone associated with LSM (including leaders) disagrees, you are certainly welcome to try to uplift our discussion here with your fellowship and accommodation of us and our concerns.

This forum scene should end, but much depends on your help and cooperation in a spirit of love. The respect level between us needs to rise that genuine ongoing fellowship might be be obtained.

I won't hold my breath ...

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A brother who had condemned my “slanderous websites” had apologized to me when we crossed paths one evening. He said, “I don’t know, I just don’t know”. I followed up with an email to him a few days later and he responded reminding me that God sees no iniquity in Israel…


twoturmoils.com/ChoosingtoSeeNoIniquityinIsrael.pdf

This "brother" has obviously never read the Old Testament. Seeing no iniquity in Israel? Are you kidding me? Much of the writing of the prophets is consumed with God citing the iniquity in Israel. Just read Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or just about any of the OT prophets and you will see God seeing a lot of iniquity in Israel. Yes, he promises to save and not forsake completely. But he also promises to judge severely.

Jeremiah 5

5 “Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem,
look around and consider,
search through her squares.
If you can find but one person
who deals honestly and seeks the truth,
I will forgive this city.

2 Although they say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’
still they are swearing falsely.”

3 Lord, do not your eyes look for truth?
You struck them, but they felt no pain;
you crushed them, but they refused correction.
They made their faces harder than stone
and refused to repent.

4 I thought, “These are only the poor;
they are foolish,
for they do not know the way of the Lord,
the requirements of their God.

5 So I will go to the leaders
and speak to them;
surely they know the way of the Lord,
the requirements of their God.”
But with one accord they too had broken off the yoke
and torn off the bonds.

6 Therefore a lion from the forest will attack them,
a wolf from the desert will ravage them,
a leopard will lie in wait near their towns
to tear to pieces any who venture out,
for their rebellion is great
and their backslidings many.

7 “Why should I forgive you?
Your children have forsaken me
and sworn by gods that are not gods.
I supplied all their needs,
yet they committed adultery
and thronged to the houses of prostitutes.

8 They are well-fed, lusty stallions,
each neighing for another man’s wife.

9 Should I not punish them for this?”
declares the Lord.
“Should I not avenge myself
on such a nation as this?

10 “Go through her vineyards and ravage them,
but do not destroy them completely.
Strip off her branches,
for these people do not belong to the Lord.

11 The people of Israel and the people of Judah
have been utterly unfaithful to me,”
declares the Lord.

12 They have lied about the Lord;
they said, “He will do nothing!
No harm will come to us;
we will never see sword or famine.

13 The prophets are but wind
and the word is not in them;
so let what they say be done to them.”

14 Therefore this is what the Lord God Almighty says:
“Because the people have spoken these words,
I will make my words in your mouth a fire
and these people the wood it consumes.

15 People of Israel,” declares the Lord,
“I am bringing a distant nation against you—
an ancient and enduring nation,
a people whose language you do not know,
whose speech you do not understand.

16 Their quivers are like an open grave;
all of them are mighty warriors.

17 They will devour your harvests and food,
devour your sons and daughters;
they will devour your flocks and herds,
devour your vines and fig trees.
With the sword they will destroy
the fortified cities in which you trust.

18 “Yet even in those days,” declares the Lord, “I will not destroy you completely.

[Cal]

"See no iniquity in Israel?!?" Anyone who has read the OT knows that God is continually seeing and rebuking and promising to judge Israel for its gross sins. I thought LCMers were supposed to know the Bible!

This whole thing has become so bizarre and around the bend. White has become black, and truth, darkness.

It is so ironic that the LCM treats modern day prophets like Indiana just like the corrupt leaders of Israel treated the prophets of that day.

Who are today's prophets, LCM? Who is speaking truth to power? You don't even believe in prophets. You believe anyone who speaks against you is a deadly dissenter. Did it ever occur to you that is the way the leaders of Israel viewed the prophets of that day?? Do you think the Jews liked it when Ezekiel said the following to them? Do you think they called him a "dissenter?"

Ezekiel 5

5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations,
with countries all around her.

6 Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees
more than the nations and countries around her.
She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees.

7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
You have been more unruly than the nations around you
and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws.
You have not even conformed to the standards of the nations around you.

8 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you
in the sight of the nations.

9 Because of all your detestable idols,
I will do to you what I have never done before
and will never do again.

10 Therefore in your midst parents will eat their children,
and children will eat their parents.
I will inflict punishment on you
and will scatter all your survivors to the winds.

11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord,
because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images
and detestable practices, I myself will shave you;
I will not look on you with pity or spare you.

12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish
by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls;
and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

13 Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside,
and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath on them,
they will know that I the Lord have spoken in my zeal.

14 I will make you a ruin and a reproach among the nations around you,
in the sight of all who pass by.

15 You will be a reproach and a taunt,
a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you
when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath
and with stinging rebuke.
I the Lord have spoken.

16 When I shoot at you with my deadly
and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you.
I will bring more and more famine upon you
and cut off your supply of food.

17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you,
and they will leave you childless.
Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you,
and I will bring the sword against you.
I the Lord have spoken.”

[HERn]

Love your sign-off Igzy; "The bottom line is, I was crazy enough to be in the LC, and sane enough to leave."

I don't know which was crazier; me joining the LC, or believing this tiny Christian sect was the equivalent of biblical Israel. Of course it might not end up being so tiny if all the underground house churches in China end up under LSM and the BBs.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

Love your sign-off Igzy; "The bottom line is, I was crazy enough to be in the LC, and sane enough to leave."

I don't know which was crazier; me joining the LC, or believing this tiny Christian sect was the equivalent of biblical Israel. Of course it might not end up being so tiny if all the underground house churches in China end up under LSM and the BBs.

Not to fear. I read Eastern Lightning (1 million strong) is hijacking the house churches.

The “Lord Changshou” sect

One branch of the Shouters held Witness Lee in such high esteem that they began to regard his authority and status as greater than Christ’s.[16] They called Witness Lee, “Lord Changshou” [17] (Changshou is Witness Lee’s given name).
http://www.facts.org.cn/ebook/201310...11_1137654.htm

The Local Church:

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not to fear. I read Eastern Lightning (1 million strong) is hijacking the house churches.

The “Lord Changshou” sect

One branch of the Shouters held Witness Lee in such high esteem that they began to regard his authority and status as greater than Christ’s.[16] They called Witness Lee, “Lord Changshou” [17] (Changshou is Witness Lee’s given name).
http://www.facts.org.cn/ebook/201310...11_1137654.htm

In March 1989, Mr. Zhao was made head of the Changshou sect in Heilongjiang and was named “Lord of Power”. He Zhexun was made the Leader of the Hengshan Church (a Shouter church).

At the end of 1990 because of pressure from the public security authorities and other reasons, the Changshou sect was broken up. Mr. Zhao saw his opportunity and sent some of his core people to various Changshou sect areas and got those believers to believe in the Lord of Power (that is, himself) instead of Witness Lee. He wrote his own tract, called “Preaching the Word”. Under this tract’s influence, his followers gave up the Bible and Witness Lee’s Life-Study of the Bible.

The DCP website denies any link between the LC, and Eastern Lightning, but all evidence that I've seen suggest otherwise. The "Lord Changshou" sect is apparently the missing link between the two. It's some scary stuff.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

Love your sign-off Igzy; "The bottom line is, I was crazy enough to be in the LC, and sane enough to leave."

I had a feeling you of all people would appreciate that.

[TLFisher]

Jerry said to Steve; "From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church."

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.
But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’"

Revelation 2:1-7

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A brother who had condemned my “slanderous websites” had apologized to me when we crossed paths one evening.

Seems whether one is using the word slander or slanderous, in LC circles it's used loosely and liberally much as "false accusations" was liberally used on another forum.
In essence whenever there was something that portrayed the local churches or local church leaders in a negative light that's when words of slander and false accusations are loosely employed.
Keep in mind these so-called slanderous websites predated the Harvest House lawsuit. Specifically, Steve's Hiding History website. If it was indeed slanderous, don't you think DCP/LSM would have taken a lawsuit against Steve? At that junction, LSM had not experienced a lawsuit not in their favor. That is until Harvest House.