Practice of Deputy Authority in the Bible

TLFisher · 06-03-2015, 08:10 PM

"9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church." 3 John verses 9-10

In these verses from 3 John, is the most apparent display of practicing deputy authority than is presently active.

Several examples. First there's the case of Mario Sandoval in Hear the Cases
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3303

This brother and his wife left the locality of Ontario, Ca led by an abusive elder for Vista, California. Subsequently at the behest of a blended brother, the elder from Vista put them out of the church.

The second example was of Steve Isitt and the Church in Spokane. Steve was going on well positively with the Church in Spokane until elders from the Church in Seattle heard Steve was meeting in Spokane. Due to the Seattle elders, the Spokane elders would not receive Steve until he cleared up matters with the Church in Seattle. That would be fine if Seattle had the mutual desire to reach a resolution. Once again put out of the church.

Freedom · 06-03-2015, 09:48 PM

In my experience, I never heard the topic of deputy authority brought up much within the LC, but there was always a clear chain of command. I could almost say that I don't even where I got the notion that authority was to not be questioned. It was basically an ingrained notion that I picked up somewhere along the way.

I had to stop and think about it for a minute. What seems most likely to me is that the LC is a groupthink environment, and as such, no one needs to exert authority in an obvious way. If an elder stands up and criticizes Billy Graham as one who preaches the "low gospel", and it's met with a resounding "amen", the job is already done. What should have been a statement that he was called out for saying, instead became something that was accepted by taking advantage of groupthink. If an elder knew that his statements were not going to be automatically accepted, wouldn't he be more careful in what he says?

Another consideration is that LC elders function mostly as an "MC", so their job is to say things like "sisters sing verse 1, brothers declaring." Because they are in charge of all aspects of what is happening during the meeting, they are naturally viewed as an authority figure. Their job is mostly to say and do trivial things, so it might lead to the idea that everyone else is to stupid to do the same thing. It seems people are used to listening to elders in regards to every little detail of what goes on in LC meetings, so the idea of authority is well ingrained.

TLFisher · 06-03-2015, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

In my experience, I never heard the topic of deputy authority brought up much within the LC, but there was always a clear chain of command. I could almost say that I don't even where I got the notion that authority was to not be questioned. It was basically an ingrained notion that I picked up somewhere along the way.

Being raised in the local churches it was ingrained in me, even if I disagree with brothers or sisters older than me, they're always right. So suppress my opinions.
On the topic of deputy authority, the two churches I have met with extensively since leaving the local churches (Calvary Baptist and ERCC) you never hear the topic of deputy authority.

Freedom · 06-04-2015, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Being raised in the local churches it was ingrained in me, even if I disagree with brothers or sisters older than me, they're always right. So suppress my opinions.
On the topic of deputy authority, the two churches I have met with extensively since leaving the local churches (Calvary Baptist and ERCC) you never hear the topic of deputy authority.

With most of those I've been around in the LC, the chain of command is usually self evident. There is a age bias, but not always. To have any expectation of being able to provide input or an opinion, it usually involves being directly asked for such input by a brother who has seniority over you.

TLFisher · 06-07-2015, 01:09 PM

Those that want to take deputy authority as a Biblical teaching, you could say the kings of Israel and Judah were types of deputy authority. The first king in 1 Samuel 15 is Saul.

"Then Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
4 Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah. 5 Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley. 6 Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8 He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed."

Nell · 06-07-2015, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Those that want to take deputy authority as a Biblical teaching, you could say the kings of Israel and Judah were types of deputy authority. The first king in 1 Samuel 15 is Saul.

Hi Terry,

Here's my question: Why would anyone want to take deputy authority as a biblical teaching? To what end? Christ is the head of the Church, and as such, all authority was given to Him. Is Jesus Christ so incapable of righteously exercising the authority given to Him by God Himself that He had to deputize a few fallen men to do his job for him? I find no scripture to support this.

There are verses about apostles, prophets, deacons, etc., but these folks were, in context of scripture, SERVANTS. They were appointed to serve the saints in their practical needs in some cases, and in other cases teaching and preaching the Word, but all was done in love and to meet the needs of the saints, whether practical or spiritual. In matters of conflict resolution, Matt. 18 is clear.

Regarding the examples you mentioned of putting people out of "the church"...is this really the church for which Jesus died? Or, is it the equivalent of a Christian Club or a Home Owners Association type organization with a Board of Directors who have ultimate authority over the membership?

According to the Word, we are known by our fruit. What is the fruit of the practice of deputy authority?

Nell

06-03-2015, 08:10 PM	#1
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Practice of Deputy Authority in the Bible "9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church." 3 John verses 9-10 In these verses from 3 John, is the most apparent display of practicing deputy authority than is presently active. Several examples. First there's the case of Mario Sandoval in Hear the Cases http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3303 This brother and his wife left the locality of Ontario, Ca led by an abusive elder for Vista, California. Subsequently at the behest of a blended brother, the elder from Vista put them out of the church. The second example was of Steve Isitt and the Church in Spokane. Steve was going on well positively with the Church in Spokane until elders from the Church in Seattle heard Steve was meeting in Spokane. Due to the Seattle elders, the Spokane elders would not receive Steve until he cleared up matters with the Church in Seattle. That would be fine if Seattle had the mutual desire to reach a resolution. Once again put out of the church. __________________ The Church in Los Angeles 1971-1972 Phoenix 1972-1973 Albuquerque 1973-1975 Anaheim 1976-1979 San Bernardino 1979-1986 Bellevue 1993-2000 Renton 2009-2011

06-03-2015, 09:48 PM	#2
Freedom Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,636	Re: Practice of Deputy Authority in the Bible In my experience, I never heard the topic of deputy authority brought up much within the LC, but there was always a clear chain of command. I could almost say that I don't even where I got the notion that authority was to not be questioned. It was basically an ingrained notion that I picked up somewhere along the way. I had to stop and think about it for a minute. What seems most likely to me is that the LC is a groupthink environment, and as such, no one needs to exert authority in an obvious way. If an elder stands up and criticizes Billy Graham as one who preaches the "low gospel", and it's met with a resounding "amen", the job is already done. What should have been a statement that he was called out for saying, instead became something that was accepted by taking advantage of groupthink. If an elder knew that his statements were not going to be automatically accepted, wouldn't he be more careful in what he says? Another consideration is that LC elders function mostly as an "MC", so their job is to say things like "sisters sing verse 1, brothers declaring." Because they are in charge of all aspects of what is happening during the meeting, they are naturally viewed as an authority figure. Their job is mostly to say and do trivial things, so it might lead to the idea that everyone else is to stupid to do the same thing. It seems people are used to listening to elders in regards to every little detail of what goes on in LC meetings, so the idea of authority is well ingrained.

06-07-2015, 01:09 PM	#5
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Re: Practice of Deputy Authority in the Bible Those that want to take deputy authority as a Biblical teaching, you could say the kings of Israel and Judah were types of deputy authority. The first king in 1 Samuel 15 is Saul. "Then Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” 4 Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah. 5 Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley. 6 Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8 He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed." __________________ The Church in Los Angeles 1971-1972 Phoenix 1972-1973 Albuquerque 1973-1975 Anaheim 1976-1979 San Bernardino 1979-1986 Bellevue 1993-2000 Renton 2009-2011