In this manner pray: Our Father in heaven...

[Boxjobox]

Looking back at my time with the LC, I have to say I still appreciate WL's teaching on the oneness of the church, the church in the city, and the need to avoid divisions. The problem was the content he tried to fill it with. With all the ballyhoo about "living Christ", I am amazed no one ever questioned his prayer practice, or I should really say our prayer practice. Jesus did not teach us to pray to Jesus, but to pray to our Heavenly Father. Matthew dedicates 3 chapters of Jesus' teachings in chapters 5, 6 and 7 to the importance of real pray. Throughout the gospels, Jesus is constantly praying to our Heavenly Father. in most instances, the prayers of the apostles are to God our Father. It would seem to me, that if we were "living Christ", we too would have been---dare I say, imitating Jesus. Instead there was the constant "oh Lord Jesus". I feel this created a disfunctional church family. Instead of praying to our Heavenly Father, we would pray to our big brother, Jesus. This was in spite of Jesus teaching and demonstrating that true prayer and petitions are to be to God our Father. The "oh Lord Jesus" prayers were not conducive to bringing us into a normal experience as God's children, in God's family.

Boxjobox

[aron]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Throughout the gospels, Jesus is constantly praying to our Heavenly Father. in most instances, the prayers of the apostles are to God our Father. It would seem to me, that if we were "living Christ", we too would have been---dare I say, imitating Jesus. Instead there was the constant "oh Lord Jesus". I feel this created a dysfunctional church family. Instead of praying to our Heavenly Father, we would pray to our big brother, Jesus.

Like many things LC, it started with some scriptural basis and got distorted. In the LC, one set of scriptures would assume primacy, simply because WL was focused there. In this case it was arguably "Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved"; the name obviously being the name of Jesus. "It is by no other name given that men will be saved" etc. And Paul's "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours..." I could add a half-dozen NT verses to buttress the case. But the danger is that in our ten or dozen "key verses" we then forget the Father of lights. We might even hear an argument that "since Jesus IS the Father we just pray to Father Jesus". One stop shopping, as it were -- I actually saw that presented by LC members: "Pray to Father Jesus".

http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Foru...=219918&page=1

Thus we have a generic, "blended Christ" smoothie who's the Father, the Son, the Spirit, the Body, the Ministry, the etc, etc... so we just say "Oh Lord Jesus" in every place... but look at Paul's "in every place"... it means everywhere people call upon the name of the Lord Jesus they are separated and sanctified. It doesn't mean that "Oh Lord Jesus" now becomes the generic, one-size-fits-all prayer.

[OBW]

While I am not entirely sold on being formula driven, I have noted the same thing. We were told that we could directly approach the throne, not just he right hand of the throne. I do not suggest in this that Jesus is not God, but that there is meaning to the persons, Father, Son, and Spirit.

I believe that this is one of the harder of Lee's errors to see through because there is and aspect in which the Three are One. But we were still told to approach the throne, not the right hand. We were told that we now had direct access to the Father, then abdicated it. I believe there is something flawed in the sort of Oneness teaching that praying to any is the same as praying to all.

We like to think that God has no protocol. But he somewhat does. Jesus said to pray for a lot of things. Lee said that prayers concerning at least half of what is covered in the Lord's Prayer was unimportant, or even too low.

I don't believe that our prayers are denied because we still pray in that potentially errant way. But it might be that we remain "those troublemakers" that just won't follow instruction.

Yes, Jesus is our advocate. But it would appear that He is intending to be an advocate for what we speak of directly to the Father, not just the one with power of attorney to appear on our behalf as we stay home after telling it all to Him.

[aron]

"When it comes to the matter of the Triune God, many Christians only care for their tradition, not for the clear, accurate word of the Bible. In order to preserve their tradition, they twist the words of Scripture and will not return absolutely to the pure word of the Bible. Because of this tradition, a fight is going on. Although we do not like to fight, we cannot avoid it. Therefore, we must point out that many Christians hold a concept, which is certainly heretical, of two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and some, even of three Gods. It may be that they are not aware of this or that they hold it unconsciously and, thus, they may deny that they hold it. However, the concept held by them actually is heretical because it implies two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and, in some cases, three Gods.

According to the basic revelation of the Bible, God's economy is to work Christ into His believers that they may become a living church to express God on earth. But in Christian history and in today's situation, we do not see this. What we see is merely a Christian religion with the Triune God as their object of worship plus a Savior who saves sinners from hell to heaven. In today's Christianity we see neither the enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ nor the practice of the proper church life. For this reason, during the past fifty years the Lord has come to show us His recovery of the experience of Christ and of the proper church life. Throughout the years that we have been burdened by the Lord with His recovery, we have been attacked by religion. We have been attacked because we have received a clear vision from the Lord regarding who Christ is. The Lord has shown us that Christ is the all-inclusive, wonderful One. He is all in all. He is God, the Creator, the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and also the proper man. He is the reality of all divine attributes and of all human virtues. The hinge of all the aspects of this all-inclusive Christ is the living Spirit. We have no choice except to tell our fellow Christians that our Savior, Jesus Christ, is the living Spirit. Undoubtedly, He is the Lamb of God and the Redeemer, but these are simply two aspects of this all-inclusive One. Christ, the all-inclusive One, is everything. The Bible even describes Him with the term "all in all" (Col. 3:11). Christ is the reality of every positive thing. He is light, life, righteousness, holiness, redemption, salvation, and everything. In our experience, He is the life-giving Spirit indwelling our human spirit. Because we proclaim this, we are accused of being heretical. Our critics say that we teach heresy in telling people that Christ, the Son, is the Father as well as the Spirit. Today, many Christians do not believe that Christ is not only the Son, but also the Father and the Spirit.

Some of our critics say we teach that Christ is the Father and the Spirit, we are teaching modalism and denying the co-inherence and co-existence of the three Persons of the Godhead." We deny this accusation. If the critics were to ask us whether we believe in Matthew 3:16 and 17, where the Son is standing, the Spirit is descending, and the Father is speaking, we would answer that We believe it at least as much as they do. All three, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit were present at the same time. We fully believe in the co-inherence and co-existence of the Three of the Godhead. I not only believe Matthew 3:16 and 17, but all the verses that pertain to this subject. For example, Revelation 1:4 and 5 say, "Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ...." In these verses, the Father is the One "which is, and which was, and which is to come"; the Spirit is the "seven Spirits"; and the Son is Jesus Christ, "the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth." Here, the Father, the Spirit, and the Son are not only present after Christ's resurrection, but even after His ascension and after Pentecost. Many other verses reveal the same thing. Second Corinthians 13:14 says, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all" (Gk.). Here we see the grace of Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Spirit. Furthermore, Ephesians 3:14-17 says, "I bow my knees unto the Father...that he would grant you...to be strengthened with might by his Spirit...that Christ may make his home in your hearts..." (Gk.). Once again, the Father, the Spirit, and Christ are all present at the same time. The charge that I am a modalist is false, and I absolutely repudiate it. Modalism teaches that God is not at the same time Father and Son and that the revelation of the Son ended with the ascension. The permanence of the Father, Son, and Spirit was denied by modalism. Modalism is a heresy, and we do not believe in it." -- Witness Lee

[aron]

THE SON'S BEING CALLED THE FATHER

"Some of the critics, however, may reply, "Don't you say that the Son is the Father and that Christ is the Spirit? This is exactly what the modalists say." To this I would answer that I do not care for modalism, but only for the pure word of the Bible. Isaiah 9:6 says that a child is born unto us, that a son is given unto us, that the child is called the mighty God, and that this son is called the everlasting Father. To say that the Son is the Father is not an interpretation; it is a quotation. If you read this verse carefully, you will see from the context that the mighty God refers to the child and that the everlasting Father refers to the Son. Throughout the centuries, all fundamental students of the Bible have agreed that the child born in the manger was the mighty God. Only Jews and unbelievers would deny this. However, the vast majority of Christians only believe half of this verse. They either neglect or twist the other half regarding the Son's being called the everlasting Father. Let us now consider this verse in some detail along with the different ways of twisting it.

Isaiah 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." In this verse there are two lines with two points. The first line is, "Unto us a child is born," and the second line is, "Unto us a son is given." In the middle of the verse it says that He is the One who carries out God's administration, for "the government shall be upon his shoulder." This indicates that the child born unto us and the Son given unto us carries out God's administration. In the latter part of this verse we see the name of the child and the name of the Son. "His name" refers to the name of the child and of the Son. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Prince of Peace. Between these names, we have the mighty God and the everlasting Father. Undoubtedly, "the mighty God" is the name of the child and "the everlasting Father" is the name of the Son. Therefore, according to the two lines of this verse, the child born to us is called the mighty God and the Son given to us is called the everlasting Father. All Christians agree that the child born to us is the child named Jesus born in the manger at Bethlehem. Furthermore, we all agree that this child was truly the mighty God. Every bona fide, fundamental Christian recognizes this. Whoever does not recognize this is not a genuine Christian. However, a number of fundamental Christians have a problem with the second line. They simply do not believe that the Son is the Father.

Because we believe that Isaiah 9:6 means what it says, we are accused of being modalistic. Those who accuse us of this fall into the danger of being tritheistic. The divine Trinity has the side of the one and the side of the three. Modalism stresses the side of the one, misunderstanding and misappropriating the side of the three, and tritheism stresses the side of the three, denying the side of the one. But the pure revelation in the Bible contains both sides of the truth. All fundamentalists believe that the child born to us is the mighty God, but some neglect, or even oppose, the second point--that the Son given to us is the everlasting Father. They have a big problem here. Because they have a problem, they twist this verse." -- Witness Lee

[aron]

My favorite line was:

"Why would we want to confuse the Father with the Son and therefore confuse the lost”

(that, btw, wasn't from Witness Lee)

[awareness]

John 14:14 - If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

John 16:24 - Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

John 14:13 - And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

"When it comes to the matter of the Triune God, many Christians only care for their tradition, not for the clear, accurate word of the Bible. In order to preserve their tradition, they twist the words of Scripture and will not return absolutely to the pure word of the Bible. Because of this tradition, a fight is going on. Although we do not like to fight, we cannot avoid it.

"we do not like to fight"??????

Therefore, we must point out that many Christians hold a concept, which is certainly heretical, of two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and some, even of three Gods. It may be that they are not aware of this or that they hold it unconsciously and, thus, they may deny that they hold it. However, the concept held by them actually is heretical because it implies two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and, in some cases, three Gods.

I know some like Mormons hold to the concept of 3 Gods, or that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. However I have never heard anyone talk about 2 divine Fathers or 2 life giving Spirits. Never!

According to the basic revelation of the Bible, God's economy is to work Christ into His believers that they may become a living church to express God on earth. But in Christian history and in today's situation, we do not see this.

nor do we see this in the LC ! The LC/LSM has become the expression of Witness Lee!

What we see is merely a Christian religion with the Triune God as their object of worship plus a Savior who saves sinners from hell to heaven. In today's Christianity we see neither the enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ nor the practice of the proper church life.

For everything there is a season.. a time to be happy and a time to weep. We can't "always" be "enjoying" Christ. We can certainly be in His Presence in good times and in bad times. We have each other to lift us up when we are down and out, to give each other encouragement. But to say there is always 'enjoyment' in the church is false.

For this reason, during the past fifty years the Lord has come to show us His recovery of the experience of Christ and of the proper church life. Throughout the years that we have been burdened by the Lord with His recovery, we have been attacked by religion. We have been attacked because we have received a clear vision from the Lord regarding who Christ is.

The LC was attacked because they attacked the other flocks. Maybe God does not like denominations and divisions but the LC under Lee's leadership alienated everyone outside the LC including the saints' families if they were not part of the LC movement. The LC was not attacked because the LC had a 'clear vision'. It was attacked for thinking they were better than everyone else ! They became sectarian and cultish. That is what people hold against the Lee's teachings!

The Lord has shown us that Christ is the all-inclusive, wonderful One. He is all in all. He is God, the Creator, the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and also the proper man. He is the reality of all divine attributes and of all human virtues. The hinge of all the aspects of this all-inclusive Christ is the living Spirit. We have no choice except to tell our fellow Christians that our Savior, Jesus Christ, is the living Spirit.

When did anyone of us do that ?? We went around saying "poor, poor Christianity!"

Undoubtedly, He is the Lamb of God and the Redeemer, but these are simply two aspects of this all-inclusive One. Christ, the all-inclusive One, is everything. The Bible even describes Him with the term "all in all" (Col. 3:11). Christ is the reality of every positive thing. He is light, life, righteousness, holiness, redemption, salvation, and everything. In our experience, He is the life-giving Spirit indwelling our human spirit.

I agree with this because as I pointed out, I have learned and still learning how to address God in His many Titles. Sometimes He is my Savior. Other times He is my Counselor. Sometimes I address Him as "Holy Spirit'. Mostly when I have lost something and can't find it. It is then that I always say 'Holy Spirit. Where did I put this or that?' And He always points me to them. Sometimes I pray "Our Father, My Father You Who are in heaven. You Whose Name is so Holy. May Your Kingdom come and may Your will be done TODAY... in me and in all Your people. Feed me today of Your daily Bread. The Bread of Life: Jesus. Give me to drink from the Fountain of Living Water. Thank You for forgiving me of all my sins. (That is why Jesus died on the cross right?) Help me to forgive those who have trespassed against me, who have harmed me and done me wrong. Just as YOU forgave me, forgive them too. Just as You had mercy on me, have Mercy on them as well. Lead me away from temptation. For Yours is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory forever and ever. (amen!)

Because we proclaim this, we are accused of being heretical. Our critics say that we teach heresy in telling people that Christ, the Son, is the Father as well as the Spirit. Today, many Christians do not believe that Christ is not only the Son, but also the Father and the Spirit.

Not sure if this is a misprint but what I have highlighted does not make sense. I know there are many Christians who do not believe Jesus is God. That He is only the Son of God.

Some of our critics say we teach that Christ is the Father and the Spirit, we are teaching modalism and denying the co-inherence and co-existence of the three Persons of the Godhead." We deny this accusation. If the critics were to ask us whether we believe in Matthew 3:16 and 17, where the Son is standing, the Spirit is descending, and the Father is speaking, we would answer that We believe it at least as much as they do. All three, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit were present at the same time. We fully believe in the co-inherence and co-existence of the Three of the Godhead. I not only believe Matthew 3:16 and 17, but all the verses that pertain to this subject. For example, Revelation 1:4 and 5 say, "Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ...." In these verses, the Father is the One "which is, and which was, and which is to come"; the Spirit is the "seven Spirits"; and the Son is Jesus Christ, "the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth." Here, the Father, the Spirit, and the Son are not only present after Christ's resurrection, but even after His ascension and after Pentecost. Many other verses reveal the same thing. Second Corinthians 13:14 says, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all" (Gk.). Here we see the grace of Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Spirit. Furthermore, Ephesians 3:14-17 says, "I bow my knees unto the Father...that he would grant you...to be strengthened with might by his Spirit...that Christ may make his home in your hearts..." (Gk.). Once again, the Father, the Spirit, and Christ are all present at the same time. The charge that I am a modalist is false, and I absolutely repudiate it. Modalism teaches that God is not at the same time Father and Son and that the revelation of the Son ended with the ascension.

I don't have a problem with this because as I stated more than once, I have a relationship with the Father, The Word (the Son) and the Holy Spirit. The Father is the GLORY, like the sun. The Son, is His Word, the Light of this world and the Holy Spirit is the Voice of God, the warmthness we feel from the sun if we were to compare GOD's Glory to the sun.

But without a relationship, the definitions and doctrines and teachings and explanations are dung and worthless.

The permanence of the Father, Son, and Spirit was denied by modalism. Modalism is a heresy, and we do not believe in it." -- Witness Lee

ha-ha I have never develed into the study of Modalism and all the other isms out there.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I know some like Mormons hold to the concept of 3 Gods, or that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. However I have never heard anyone talk about 2 divine Fathers or 2 life giving Spirits. Never!

That was WL's argumentative ploy. If you were talking about cats, he'd convince you that you were really talking about dogs. Then he'd begin to show you what was "really" a cat. As long as he'd convinced you that the first idea was heretical, and his was different from the first idea, he could sell you an armadillo with a sign "cat" hanging over it's neck, and you'd buy it. In whatever form he gave you: poster, CD, cassette tape, pamphlet, book, magazine, VHS tape... you'd line up and buy one. I was also there in line, waiting to buy. So I know the drill.

[Boxjobox]

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24 NKJV) Jesus told us his words were not his own, but what he received from the Father, and as his disciples we are to keep his words. For WL to set up the "oh Lord Jesus" prayers was either the act of the deputy authority or the act of an upstart. Methinks it was the latter! Throughout the NT the writers emphasize the worship and prayers to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. To substitute this with the " oh Lord Jesus" praying was to totally disrespect the work of Christ, which was to bring us back to fellowship with our Father God, and to greatly disrespect the heart of God. It also shows the ineptness of the elders, who should have protected us from such a system of error, but instead, cared for the speaking of a man more than God. It also shows our gullibility to group mentality and man's teachings over the authority of the scripture. The "all inclusive Christ" indoctrination blinded us from what God our Father is seeking!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Looking back at my time with the LC, I have to say I still appreciate WL's teaching on the oneness of the church, the church in the city, and the need to avoid divisions. The problem was the content he tried to fill it with.

hmm... ironically, Lee became the master of causing divisions. He had the concept down pact. It was through him and Nee the LC realized Paul in particular addressed the living saints and the church in a particular city: Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, etc... It was pointed out to us that Paul did not address Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, 'church of this or that' and that in heaven (or more importantly to him, the Holy City New Jerusalem) we will be "one" with the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and with one another in HIM.

With all the ballyhoo about "living Christ", I am amazed no one ever questioned his prayer practice, or I should really say our prayer practice. Jesus did not teach us to pray to Jesus, but to pray to our Heavenly Father.

Now hold on there! When I have been confronted with these thoughts by others, I am reminded how weird and arrogant it would have been for Jesus to tell the people to pray to Him. Think about how you would react back in the day listening to Jesus speak and He said, pray to ME!

That said, Jesus did say "I AM THE WAY. I AM THE TRUTH. I AM THE LIFE. and No one goes to the FATHER but by Me."

Furthermore. When Jesus taught His followers how to pray: "Our Father You Who are in Heaven...etc" Jesus had not yet been crucified, resurrected and Glorified. Most of those people He was speaking to were Jews as well. I don't know that the Jews of the OT ever addressed Jehovah as "Father".

Remember. Jesus came to the Jews FIRST...then the gentiles. But the Jews as a whole rejected Him. Thus the LAST (converted gentiles) shall be FIRST. We are the Bride of Christ. But Father God knows His Own and He will go after His Own, that is the Jews looking for Messiah.

It would seem to me, that if we were "living Christ", we too would have been---dare I say, imitating Jesus. Instead there was the constant "oh Lord Jesus". I feel this created a disfunctional church family.

Of course it did! It became a cliche. God wants us to have a relationship with HIM. Last night btw, I heard a testimony on Coast to coast of a man who was helping his friend fix his 18 wheeler. The 18 wheeler was up on a jack and he was under the 18 wheeler doing a last minute check when the jack gave out and the axle crushed the guy in half. Blood came spewing out of his mouth and for reasons unknown to him, He cried out 'LORD JESUS! HELP ME. LORD JESUS! HELP ME' He emphasized he spoke these words twice. It was a heart wrenching testimony hearing the grizzly details. Through the ordeal, he saw 2 angels on each side of his body. Ok... I'm getting off topic with his testimony, but to the point, this person was never an LCr and he cried out "LORD JESUS"...not Father Who art in heaven.

(That's not to say had he not said "Father God Who art in heaven", God would not have heard him and healed him.)

Instead of praying to our Heavenly Father, we would pray to our big brother, Jesus.

In the last couple of years, I have learned how and when to address Father God, the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, King, Redeemer, Who is Father God's WORD and His Holy Spirit, Father God's Voice. God has many titles. I am learning to use them all in my prayers and meditations.

Again. That said, remember that when Stephen was being stoned to death, he cried out 'LORD JESUS! Receive my spirit !' And Jesus stood up. He did not cry out "Father GOD! Receive my spirit!'.

We also know from the Scriptures, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess "JESUS CHRIST IS LORD". We are not going to bow and declare "Our Heavenly Father, You are LORD". Although in Truth, since the Son is in the Father and is the Mighty God, we will acknowledge Father and Spirit through Jesus Christ.

This was in spite of Jesus teaching and demonstrating that true prayer and petitions are to be to God our Father.

Back in the locality I grew up in as a believer, I recall the elders often interjected their prayers with praying to FATHER GOD...not always 'O Lord Jesus'. This was in 1975-1977.

The "oh Lord Jesus" prayers were not conducive to bringing us into a normal experience as God's children, in God's family.

It wasn't because little by little, the LC under Lee's controlling leadership moved us away from having a real genuine relationship with Father God through His Son and Word, Jesus and His Spirit of Love and Truth.

Great discussion !
Blessings!
Carol