Open Letter to Ron Kangas

[Indiana]

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf

Ron Kangas and others, I am told, feel that I am the "embodiment of the Accuser of the brethren", when all that I have been addressing over the last 8 years is their own false accusations of the brethren, which are well-documented. This letter in the link addresses Ron Kangas and his defamatory word spoken about me in Ecuador to South American co-workers.

(In the letter, expect a pause of less than a minute at the beginning of the tape of his speaking.)

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf

[TLFisher]

I've listened to Ron's message in Ecaudor and read the open letter. If there's a lie Steve has spoken, an offense comitted, Ron should definitely speak a similar word at a training or at a blending conference in North America. If there's an offense warranting public announcement, appropriate steps should be taken.
Until that time, since Steve hasn't been called a man of lies, that implies his historical-based writings have merit.

Below are Watchman Nee's words on what lies are.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...23%5D%5B%2E%0A

Terry

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Terry

Below are Watchman Nee's words on what lies are.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...23%5D%5B%2E%0A

Terry

Terry, can you please give the citation?

LSM doesn't permit deep linking...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Terry, can you please give the citation?

LSM doesn't permit deep linking...

Message to New Believers (3)
Chapter: WORDS

"B. What Lies Are
1. Double-tongued
To be double-tongued is to lie. A person is lying when he first says one thing and then turns around and says something else, when he first says yes and then no, when he first says that something is good and then says that it is bad, or when he first agrees that something is right and then says that it is wrong. This is not just a matter of a wavering mind but a matter of lying.

2. Speaking according to What One Likes or Dislikes
We tell others what we like and keep silent about what we do not like. We speak about what is profitable to us and keep silent about things that are not profitable to us. This is also a kind of lying. Many people purposely withhold half of a story. They withhold the things that are profitable to others, especially things that are profitable to their enemies, and remain silent about them. Instead, they talk about things that hurt, damage, or bring loss to others. This is lying. Many people do not speak according to truth and reality, but according to their own likes and dislikes. Many words are not based on facts but on sentiments. Such people speak certain things because they like to speak them, or they speak about certain persons because they like them. They change their tone when the conversation turns to people or things they do not like. This kind of speaking is totally according to one's likes and dislikes. It is speaking according to one's emotion, not according to truth and reality. Please keep in mind that this is lying. Inaccurate words are a serious sin. Willful deception is even more serious, and it is a greater sin before God. We must not speak according to our emotion but according to facts. Either we must not speak at all, or we must speak according to facts and the truth. We cannot speak according to our feeling. If we do, we are lying willfully before God.

3. Speaking according to One's Hopes
Furthermore, we must learn to put away our own feelings; we should not have any expectations of others. Many words today represent hopes rather than facts. They do not convey facts; they only convey a man's hopes. A person often reviles a sister or a brother according to his sentiment rather than according to fact. He only hopes that a sister is as bad as he thinks, yet he speaks as if the sister is indeed that bad. Or he only hopes that a brother will fall, yet he speaks as if the brother has fallen already. He speaks according to what he wishes would happen, not according to what has actually happened. Do you see the fundamental problem here? Often a person speaks according to what he expects in his heart. His words do not convey what has actually happened. Rather than speaking of the actual situation, he speaks of what he expects the situation to be.

4. Adding One's Own Thoughts
Why is it that many words are altered when they pass from one mouth to another? A statement often is changed completely after passing through three or four mouths. Why? This is because each person adds his own thoughts instead of finding out the facts. No one tries to find out the facts, yet everyone tries to add his own thoughts. This is lying.

There is one basic principle of speaking: One must not speak according to his feeling or hope. A person is lying when he is not speaking according to truth and reality but according to expectation and hope. We should learn to speak according to facts and not express any opinion of our own. If we are giving our opinion, we need to make it clear that this is our opinion. When we are speaking a fact, we need to state that this is a fact. We must separate our opinions from facts. We should not mix facts with our opinions. What we think a person is and what a person actually is are two different things. At the most we can say that the fact indicates one thing but we have a different thought concerning the matter.

5. Exaggeration
There is another type of lie which is very prevalent in the church—exaggeration. Please bear in mind that inaccurate numbers and inaccurate words, as well as the love of big words, strong words, or exaggerated words, are different forms of lies because there is falsehood in all of them.

Today if you want to know where a saint's heart is before the Lord, all you have to do is tell him something and ask him to tell others about it. You will immediately know where his heart is before the Lord. A person who fears God, who has learned the proper lessons, and who has been dealt with by God will consider speaking a great thing. He will not dare to speak carelessly or spread words carelessly. He will pay attention to accurate words. When you commit a word to a person who has not been dealt with or disciplined by the Lord, he will spread the word zealously. In his spreading you will find that he is a frivolous, deceitful, and dishonest person. He can add many words of his own and withhold words that should be spoken."

Terry

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf

Ron Kangas and others, I am told, feel that I am the "embodiment of the Accuser of the brethren", when all that I have been addressing over the last 8 years is their own false accusations of the brethren, which are well-documented. This letter in the link addresses Ron Kangas and his defamatory word spoken about me in Ecuador to South American co-workers.

(In the letter, expect a pause of less than a minute at the beginning of the tape of his speaking.)

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf

Steve, I listened to brother Ron in Ecuador, and am shocked at the claptrap coming out of him. He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

He might just as well have stood up and said, "Everything coming from Lee, LSM, and the Blended Brothers is the tree of life, and anything coming from anywhere else is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, especially anything coming off the web, or from Steve Isitt."

Brother Ron has been drinking too much of the kool-aid at LSM. As a result, your efforts to reconcile with him will fail. Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

Harold, that's the perception I received from listening to the audio. Steve's writing equals the Tree of Knowledge. It's understandable. Whenever someone has a word to remove the veil and exposing the light, it is decried as being from the Tree of Knowledge.

As to your notion that LSM, DCP, etc is life and all other ministries is death, how can I take that seriously? There are other edifying ministries out there. All one has to do is listen, discern, and receive.

Terry

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by awareness

Steve, I listened to brother Ron in Ecuador, and am shocked at the claptrap coming out of him. He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

He might just as well have stood up and said, "Everything coming from Lee, LSM, and the Blended Brothers is the tree of life, and anything coming from anywhere else is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, especially anything coming off the web, or from Steve Isitt."

Brother Ron has been drinking too much of the kool-aid at LSM. As a result, your efforts to reconcile with him will fail. Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.

Yes, well, who could argue (intelligently) with what you have said.

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

Wow! There is a really sobering, hard-hitting excerpt form WN in the middle of dear brother Steve I's letter:

"I would like to draw your attention to the basis of our oneness. This is fundamental. The basis of our oneness is the forsaking of sins. Please bear in mind that God's children are divided today because of the problem of sins. The matter of sins is always implicated. Because of many sins, there are many divisions. Many of God's children have a basic misunderstanding; they think that patience and forbearance are the basis of oneness. There is no such thing as this. The Bible never takes patience or forbearance as the basis of our oneness. The Bible always takes the forsaking of sins as the basis of our oneness.

If anyone wants to have fellowship with God today, he must walk in the light. We will have fellowship with one another when we are in the light. We may say that fellowship is the basis of our oneness, but the basis of fellowship is our dealing with sin and our removal of sin. When all of us are in God's light, we have fellowship one with another. Other than this, there is no fellowship.

…So, the basis of oneness is not in tolerating sin but in judging sin. There is no possibility of oneness between those who judge and those who do not judge. If anyone desires to seek oneness with God’s children, he must judge sin with all the children of God. If some judge sin and others do not, can there be oneness? But it is right to judge sin. He who judges sin is one with all who judge sin. May God be merciful to him who does not judge sin that he too may rise up and judge.”

(Watchman Nee, Love One Another, pp. 148-151)

Oh my! This shines a whole new light on the events of the late 1980's regarding those who overlooked the recurring sin and thought it best to "became like an ostrich with their head in the sand". I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's? I know you think very hightly of WN, so I beg you to please take heed to this quotation in brother Steve's letter. If even WN's words find you wanting, how much more may the True Judge's assessment of your words and actions in the late 1980's find you sadly wanting?

Dear BB's: REPENT!! Repent while there is still time to repent!!

[awareness]

kistheson:
I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's?

That would be the divide ones ; the ones pulling a bait and switch, or selling one thing and delivering another. Outer division in a system comes from inner division in the system.

When we're told that God's eternal purpose is the outpouring of God's Spirit, into human spirits, and then what's delivered is spirit delivered from an earthly command center, we've been sold a deceptive/defective product.

So it starts out divided, and the fruit of it is divided.

[TLFisher]

As I was listening to Art Katz's message "What if?" http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_John...Intro_E032.mp3

I realized why Ron spoke so negatively about Steve Isitt. Man by nature do not have the stomach for truth. Our spirit recognizes truth, but our fallen man reacts against it.
Art's example was the Dachau Concentration camp. If you go there now, everything is tidied up. Hardly a resemblance of 1945. In our fallen nature the easy path is to sweep things under the rug.

Terry

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear ones,

Wow! There is a really sobering, hard-hitting excerpt from WN in the middle of dear brother Steve I's letter:


Oh my! This shines a whole new light on the events of the late 1980's regarding those who overlooked the recurring sin and thought it best to "became like an ostrich with their head in the sand". I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's? I know you think very hightly of WN, so I beg you to please take heed to this quotation in brother Steve's letter. If even WN's words find you wanting, how much more may the True Judge's assessment of your words and actions in the late 1980's find you sadly wanting?

Dear BB's: REPENT!! Repent while there is still time to repent!!

http://lordsrecovery.us/RonKangasLetterOct2009.pdf

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://lordsrecovery.us/RonKangasLetterOct2009.pdf

Yes. Nee's comments were derived from a tract by John Nelson Darby entitled, "Separation From Sin: the Basis of Oneness." Many of us received help from that tract in the '80s, to strengthen us in our understanding to separate from what we realized had become a Christian cult (the "Lee's Local Churches" aka "the Recovery"). Steve Issit is more than fair in his assessment; in fact, he's charitable. He knows the wickedness and subterfuge that was used to cover gross sinfulness (repeated adultery which was harbored and winked at, as well as other deceptive improprieties).

In fact, I have never understood why Steve Issit continues to have any sort of faith in that LC movement! I, for one, consider that movement more sectarian and deceived than
So, I'm very familiar with the events and persons documented. Also, I consistently, myself, overlooked repeated contradiction of principles in those "churches" because I so much wanted to believe they "had the truth by the tail" (which, truly, they do NOT!).

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear ones,

Oh my! This shines a whole new light on the events of the late 1980's regarding those who overlooked the recurring sin and thought it best to "became like an ostrich with their head in the sand". I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's? I know you think very highly of WN, so I beg you to please take heed to this quotation in brother Steve's letter. If even WN's words find you wanting, how much more may the True Judge's assessment of your words and actions in the late 1980's find you sadly wanting?

Dear BB's: REPENT!! Repent while there is still time to repent!!

Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf

Signatures on the letter from the disassociating churches are from Hamburg, Zurich, Geneva, Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Tiibengen, Pforzheim, Neuchatel, and Lausanne. Did you know these brothers, Ron? They could not be reconciled, since there was no repentance by Brother Lee and LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf

Reading the brief letter in the post above is just sickening. How could Witness Lee give all these spiritual and biblical teachings to the church, and yet hire his profligate son Philip as General Manager of his ministry? How could he throw all of his co-workers, so many churches, long term friends and colleagues under the bus just to protect his son's many scandals and abuses?

Drake and his supporters at LSM can go on and on about Lee's deep and high peak theology, yet how does he explain these actions? Listen to how the Apostle Paul describes these ones, "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transfiguring themselves into apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself transfigures himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if also his ministers transfigure themselves as ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (II Cor 11.13-15)

.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf

Signatures on the letter from the disassociating churches are from Hamburg, Zurich, Geneva, Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Tiibengen, Pforzheim, Neuchatel, and Lausanne. Did you know these brothers, Ron? They could not be reconciled, since there was no repentance by Brother Lee and LSM.

LSM CULTURE OF HIDING SINS HOLDS BACK THE REVIVAL THEY SEEK


]From ZNPaaneah who asked Ed Marks why he signed the apology letter to Philip Lee.

I ate dinner at the church in NY tonight along with Ed Marks. I knew Ed from Houston, we were both in the church in Houston in 1978-1980, then we both went to Irving together during the construction of the meeting hall there. All in all we were together for 4 1/2 years. 3 years in Houston and 1 1/2 years in Irving. While in Houston Ed gave me his car.

So when I heard he was going to be here I wanted to get his side of the story about the letter he signed apologizing to Phillip Lee. I met Phillip Lee while in Irving. He invited me and about 12 other brothers to go for "fellowship". We sat and watched him eat lobster at a very expensive Chinese restaurant. When I returned to the worksite I realized he needed the 12 of us so that he could expense the trip as "fellowship with the workers on the Irving hall". It was very clear to me that PL was a lascivious, gluttonous, deceitful man.

So I asked Ed what his side of the story was concerning this letter. He told me that there is always another side. I told him surely you can tell me now what it is, that was 30 years ago. He said that he was "a monkey" and held his hands to his eyes and then his ears. I told him I would never assume that, I reminded him that he was mentored by Dirk Engels and George Farmer. I told him those brothers were serious brothers. He told me that PL "had gone to be with the Lord". I said that I was not there to speak negatively of PL, rather I wanted to hear his side of why he signed that letter. He said he didn't know anything. I told him that one of the sisters that was abused by PL had come to Houston, he had to have known, this wasn't the first time it happened, John Ingalls and the other brothers had excommunicated him after warning him. He said that "Witness Lee was very happy with that letter."

Shortly after this Dennis Cooley, a brother who has been in the leadership of the church in NY for about 20 years and a brother I know very well (I lived with his brother in a brother's house in Odessa Texas) pulled me aside. He was angry that I talked to Ed. I told him I've known Ed since he first came into the church life and I wanted to ask him a question and this is the first time I have seen him since this event happened. He wanted to know if I had some kind of agenda to disrupt the meeting, I told him I had no idea that Ed was coming until yesterday when it was announced in the meeting (I had just happened to visit, the first time in about 10 years). Dennis said that Ed doesn't want to deal with this now. I said this has been 30 years, when are you going to deal with it? I can understand 3 months after the event you don't want to deal with it because you don't have all the facts, but at some point you have to deal with it. Dennis asked that I leave and not attend the fellowship, so I left.

I understand that you cannot judge someone for a mistake they made the moment they make the mistake, but at some point it is time to say "I made a mistake". The Lord Jesus died on the cross to deal with sin. He treats the matter of dealing with sin very seriously. For Ed, or the elders in Anaheim, or for the leaders in the Lord's Recovery to pretend that they can ignore sin, pretend they don't see it, pretend they don't hear it is an insult to the Lord Jesus. Surely God the father will not wink at this sin.

Witness Lee made mistakes. This was one of them. The TRAVESTY of all things Philip Lee; and covering the "all things" up.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf

Signatures on the letter from the disassociating churches are from Hamburg, Zurich, Geneva, Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Tiibengen, Pforzheim, Neuchatel, and Lausanne. Did you know these brothers, Ron? They could not be reconciled, since there was no repentance by Brother Lee and LSM.

LSM CULTURE OF HIDING SIN

"It seems that two concocted teachings took place. One was to build up a portion of Scripture to convey the message of blessed blindness to the mistakes of a leader."




LSM Radio Transcription

Witness Lee: “When I was young I was a little bothered that Noah, didn’t confess when he made a mistake. He had a failure and when he woke up he didn’t confess. He didn’t make a confession, but right away he cursed. He cursed the one that exposed his nakedness. I was a little unhappy about this. I said Noah you are the father. But anyhow, don’t you realize that you were wrong? First of all, you have to confess to God, and then confess to the exposing son, Ham. I was bothered. You didn’t confess. Right away you cursed.

Not only so. He cursed the exposing one and blessed the covering ones. Whosoever was for him, he blessed. Whosoever was not for him, he cursed. I said, Noah, surely you are too selfish. When I was a young Christian I was bothered by him, I blamed him. One day the Lord showed me His divine government. I said Noah, you are a good example. Why? Although you got the failure, yet you were still so strong in God’s governmental dealing to speak this prophecy of cursing and blessing. It was hard for Noah to do because it so much corresponded to his failure. It was hard.

If you are going to understand this portion of the divine word, you have to see what the divine government is. It is not just merely a matter of human failure. This is small. Whether the leader is right or wrong, that’s not so serious. But where is God’s government? This is serious.

You see, Ham, the son of Noah who exposed Noah’s nakedness, was careless concerning God’s divine government. He was careless; he was careless. To expose one’s nakedness is a small thing, but to get yourself involved with the divine government, this is another story. We all must see this. Here is one who is the leader, who is the father of God’s family, who is God’s deputy authority on this earth. Now he got a failure. What would be your attitude? This involves you in God’s governmental dealing. Is this clear to you all?

Chris Wilde “Dick, Witness Lee makes a very striking point in this portion. By pointing out that Noah even in his failure shows us God’s government in type, even in prophecy. This point is not that easy to understand. DT - No it’s not CW – What is this referring to?

Dick Taylor Noah had a great failure. He should have just confessed his failure to the Lord and admitted his serious mistake, yet the Bible doesn’t tell us anything along that line. But I believe the Lord in His word is trying to get a point across to us. The Bible doesn’t stress that side of Noah’s experience, but it does stress a side that even in the midst of failure, God still has His government. Apparently, you could just look at Noah and his failure and say, Noah, you should have done this, and you should have done that. But because of the failure there was a need for some speaking by God. There was a need for some speaking, especially because of the action of the sons, most notably Ham.

But if Noah had not spoken something, even as a curse to Ham, and had he not spoken faithfully after this failure, then it actually would have been a failure of God’s government. Noah’s failure was one thing, but God’s government is an even higher thing to see in this account.

Most people totally miss this. Realizing and seeing God’s government and God’s deputy authorities is crucial. So, on one hand it’s easy to miss this. On the other hand, we have to realize that God’s government is a very big thing. In the midst of this failure Noah still spoke up to take care of God’s government and express God’s authority on the earth.

CW So Noah’s attitude there was not so much a vindicating of himself even in his failure but as a respect or response to God’s authority which has been delegated to him.. DT That’s absolutely correct, yeah. CW That’s really a significant point.

WL Let’s come back. Why did Ham, the son of Noah, get the curse? [Why do you talk about Ham so much? Why did Canaan, the son of Ham get the curse and his descendants end up in the Middle East (not Africa) and became the Canaanites?] Because he was involved in God’s government. [Why was Ham actually bypassed for Canaan, the son of Ham,]He touched God’s authority. Noah, the father, was wrong – no doubt about that. But as you are concerned, you have to consider your position and you have to consider God’s divine government. The leader’s failure, your father’s failure, becomes a test on you. Are you really under God’s government? If you are, you will get the blessing. If not, you will lose the blessing. Whether you are, here’s a test. You say you are, but now something happens. Noah’s failure, the father’s failure right away became a test to all the sons. The same test you may get a blessing out of it. Or you may get a curse out of it. Whether you get a blessing or a curse out of it depends on how you get yourselves involved in God’s government.[two sons got the blessing; one received neither curse nor blessing, Ham].

I tell you the failure of Noah was bad, but it was a good chance for Shem and Japheth to get the blessing. Who will get the blessing? Let me tell you, only those who would be after God’s government. Whenever there is a damage done by Satan done over God’s work. Don’t be bothered by that. You have to stay yourself in God’s government. I tell you, right away you will get the blessing out of that damage by Satan.

Ham missed the golden chance. He should have taken that opportunity to get the golden blessing. He missed it. By what way? By the way of exposing his father. And he was talking about a fact; he was not telling a rumor. He did not tell any lie and did not put out any rumor, he was telling a fact.. But the other two brothers, Shem and Japheth, they knew God’s government. Have you noticed what they did? They wouldn’t even have a glance at the father’s nakedness. They went in backwards with a garment to cover the father without seeing his nakedness. This was not just moral or right. This was something so much under God’s government. Shem and Japheth, they knew God’s government. They went in not to see the failure, but to cover. Let me say a word here – to see other’s failure is not a blessing. Where does gossip come from. Gossip comes altogether from seeing. And hearing. Am I right? All the gossips come from two sources, seeing and hearing. Now we all have to learn, don’t see other’s situation. Don’t try to see other’s situation. That will put you into the involvement of God’s government. It is not a small thing to get yourself involved in God’s government. It is not a small thing.

I do not speak something I don’t know. I am speaking something I saw and I myself have learned so much.

CW Well Dick, this is a very sober word, isn’t it? DT Yes. Clearly there is more involved here than just our behavior. God’s government is something that we must be very careful not to cross or not to handle or apply in a wrong way.

CW How would you apply this to our reactions even to those who are in authority in the church.

DT Probably the main thing for us to consider is that we must have a view of God’s government. The first thing is even just to see it. So this account of Noah even in its failure allows us to clearly see that there is something called God’s government. Yes, there is Noah’s failure. There is this shortage and that shortage, but there is also something called God’s government.

Secondly, you always get the blessing when you remain under God’s government. And, if you in a sense, are exercised to be blind to the mistakes of those who have authority among you, this doesn’t mean that you are blind to division, or blind to immorality, or blind to idol worship. But many people have shortages; they may not do things the way you think they ought to do them.

Those who are in authority, you feel like they could have done something in a better way, they could have spoken something in a clearer way, or whatever. The best thing to realize to get the blessing is to just remember the authority is there. This is God’s government, and just exercise to be blind and keep enjoying Christ. You will be a person who will really get the blessing.

You can see that with Noah’s sons, two sons got the blessing and one son got the curse. Those who got the blessing, were those who were not pinpointing Noah’s mistake. They were not uncovering him. And they were not exposing him. They were not exposing him. The one who got the curse is the one who exposed the failure and the nakedness of the deputy authority.

So in principle we can apply it. Those who are in authority in the church, they may not be this or that and have a shortage here and a shortage there. The best way for you to enjoy the blessing is just to take this government from God and you will enjoy Christ a lot. This will save you from a lot of unnecessary problems and you will be a person who remains in the unceasing enjoyment of Christ. CW This is not an easy point to see. DT No. It is not an easy point to see. CW I think the fellowship is really a help. Thanks for your help today Dick.

http://lsmradio.com/audio/genesis.html

program #43

Originally Posted by awareness

Steve, I listened to brother Ron in Ecuador, and am shocked at the claptrap coming out of him. He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

He might just as well have stood up and said, "Everything coming from Lee, LSM, and the Blended Brothers is the tree of life, and anything coming from anywhere else is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, especially anything coming off the web, or from Steve Isitt."

Brother Ron has been drinking too much of the kool-aid at LSM. As a result, your efforts to reconcile with him will fail. Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.

Hi my name is Andy. By the way, why do you call him brother. If Ron believes in Christ and you believe in Christ, then you should call him brother. Otherwise, you shouldn't call him brother if he doesn't believe in Christ. Members of Body of Christ cannot speak evil about each other. They should bring their request to the Lord and apply His blood to wash them of their sin of evil speaking. I am not promoting LSM nor am I defending Ron Kangas. We as the Body of Christ must forsake sin and be one with our brothers in Christ. If we don't do this, Satan will rob us from our enjoyment of our dear brothers and sisters who are God's children.

A body must be complete and one entity with the head and other members to be called an alive person. Similarly, The Body of Christ must be under the Headship of Christ not under a preacher seeking self serving reasons. A body that doesn't have Christ as the Head is classified as a body with amputated body parts. Amputated body parts are dead just like the majority of churches who do not recognize Christ as the head. They are, Calvinist, Mormons, Catholics, some Evangelist and the list goes on.

It is by the inner growth unto salvation that we are saved". I am not preaching heresy, all I am saying is that initial Salvation was by the Lord who is the Grace of God through faith and faith is just the Lord dispensing more of His Righteous Life into us. The more we come to the Lord, He gives us more of Himself and that becomes faith in us. Now that we are all saved by Grace of the Lord we must grow in Him and we are not to remain as new born babes only drinking the guileless milk of the word in order that by it we may grow unto salvation.

In our daily living , we are daily saved by the Lord and we grow in Him daily. It is not by our own works or doing because if we tried to do it by ourselves, first of all, we couldn't, because it would not match God's standard. Second of all, it would make us proud and God would not approve it. Thirdly, it would annul the crucifixion, and the death and resurrection of the Lord. Salvation, is only by the Lord.

The best example is Abraham when he had Ishamel born of Hagar. After, Abraham produced Ishmael, God didn't speak to him for 13 years. This act happened even before, Abram was circumcised. Circumcision, was a picture for him to understand that his flesh must be terminated before God would give him Isaac. Isaac, represented Christ and it was for Abraham's enjoyment. Do you remember that the Lord visited Abraham with two Angels to give two news to Abraham? Well, one of the two news was the birth of Isaac and the other was the judgement at Sodom. In other words, God was saying to Abraham, I want to give you Christ for your daily enjoyment and I want to judge all negatives things called Sodom. For us it means, when we have Christ in us, all of our negative things like our self, our doings, our opinions, our negative things must be terminated before we can enjoy Christ and that is a matter of growth in life.

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ. As believers in Christ those who say that we preach heresy, is because they haven't grown to apply the Divine Blood of Christ to be their covering.

I want to stress that our initial Salvation happens instantaneously, when in our heart we believe. However, to grow we need to be daily saved from our enemy by the Lord. Actually, all the Lord wants us to do is to come and rest in Him and let Him serve us. The Lord is not interested for us to do anything, because if we do anything apart from Christ. we would produce Ishmael and the Lord will be displeased. If daily growth was heresy, Peter and Paul would not talk about it. It appears in main stream Christianity teaching because they are acting like Jewish Pharisees whom the Lord in Matthew 23 called Brood of Vipers. The Pharisees in their blinded state couldn't see the Lord, that is why, they turned to the politicians who were immersed in darkness to crucify the Lord Jesus.
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?

If you are a believer in Christ you can not speak Evil of another Christian because Christ is Living in the person and may be living in you too. Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I want to stress that our initial Salvation happens instantaneously, when in our heart we believe.

Where do you get this from in the bible? The Greek word for believe in John 3:16 is in the present continuous tense so one has to keep committing and trusting himself into Jesus in order to receive the promised eternal life. Pull out a Greek-English interlinear and you can see for yourself.

Jesus also said the believer that does not remain in him and his words is cast into the fire in John 15. He also told us to judge a tree by its fruit, and he said those who are considered his brothers are they that do the will of God (Mark 3:35).

Matthew 7:21-23 is filled with mouth professing Christians who are prevented from entering the door of eternity because their lawlessness proved that they were not true Christians despite "calling on the name of The Lord ". For this reason, the bible also teaches us to treat a church member as an outsider if they refuse to repent (Matthew 18:17)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy3tSIg7Gi0

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi my name is Andy. By the way, why do you call him brother. If Ron believes in Christ and you believe in Christ, then you should call him brother. Otherwise, you shouldn't call him brother if he doesn't believe in Christ. Members of Body of Christ cannot speak evil about each other. They should bring their request to the Lord and apply His blood to wash them of their sin of evil speaking. I am not promoting LSM nor am I defending Ron Kangas. We as the Body of Christ must forsake sin and be one with our brothers in Christ. If we don't do this, Satan will rob us from our enjoyment of our dear brothers and sisters who are God's children.

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ.

Andy, I am not sure whom you are referring to. However I am warmed by the message you are sending. Andy, if you are one who meets in the local churches, I do hope you embrace the responsibility to reject evil speaking. Putting down brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ who do not meet in the local churches is not edifying and does not produce building up. A went to one of the elders about this matter and was not bothered by the speaking. This is why I ceased meeting with the local church in my locality and began meeting with a Community assembly.
As for this thread, for clarification sake brother Steve Isitt did attempt to communicate with brother Ron Kangas privately (via phone and email) over what was spoken publicly in Ecuador.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi my name is Andy.

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ. As believers in Christ those who say that we preach heresy, is because they haven't grown to apply the Divine Blood of Christ to be their covering.

Dear brother Andy,

Many of us were members of the Local Churches for decades. It was Witness Lee himself who regularly taught us to judge all things Christian. For you to make the statement above is just ludicrous. From the first message I ever heard from Witness Lee, he condemned all of Christianity. His favorite line was "poor, poor, Christianity." He would always take the worst of Christianity and compare it to the best of the Recovery, and then ask us to choose, as if it were a fair comparison. He did his best to convince us that God's blessing and His purpose could only be found in the Recovery. How can I interpret your statement as anything but hypocrisy?

But ... besides that ... welcome to the forum.

[bearbear]

Hi Brother Andy,

I'm sorry for jumping the gun. I need to repent of my misdirected zeal. I hope you can forgive my hastiness in trying to challenge your assertions, but I still hope you can find the truth in God's word apart from the self proclaimed Minister of the Age instead looking to the Spirit of truth who guides us to all truth (John 16:13).

Welcome to the forum! And please create an account! We need more LCers here to balance the Witness Lee bashing Despite all of what I feel was bad baggage from my LC years, I know the Lord chose to raise me in this background for a reason. There are a couple things that I'm grateful for from being raised in the LC such as believing in the authority of God's word and taking my Christian walk seriously, and perhaps we need to hear more of that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by bearbear

For all of what I feel was bad baggage from my LC years I know the Lord chose to raise me in this background for a reason. There are a couple things that I'm grateful for from being raised in the LC such as believing in the authority of God's word and taking my Christian walk seriously, and perhaps we need to hear more of that.

Amen bearbear. That, I can relate to.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi my name is Andy.

Howdy Andy. Nice to meet you. And welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Andy

By the way, why do you call him brother.

Because I consider every person on the earth to be children of God and therefore brothers and sisters. I've seen it differently in the past. Early in life brothers and sisters included only Southern Baptists. Then later they were only those in the local church.

But after the local church eventually my brothers and sisters came to include all those that bear the image of God.

I'm happiest, and more with the peace of Christ, with the latter development. And now can't fit back in to those smaller boxes.

But thanks for asking bro Andy.

Originally Posted by Bro Andy

If you are a believer in Christ you can not speak Evil of another Christian because Christ is Living in the person and may be living in you too.

Thanks for the advice.

And BTW ... great post ... and good instructions. Will heed as moved.

But let us continue in discussion. Here's an example of what you say about speaking evil of others :

"Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless."
- Witness Lee

Am I wrong to point out this evil speaking of others?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ.

I haven't heard anything negative. The assemblies I have met with since last meeting with the local church in the city I reside in, regard all Christians in this city members of the Body of Christ meeting locally, but in various assemblies.
Specifically to the ministry of LSM, the only one I had heard say anything was brother Stephen Kaung saying he's open to fellowship.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.

Now you're speaking my language, Awareness! They are just like the borg in my recent experience. Such a robotic devotion to the Lee mission....with no seeming ability to hear or see even the blatant contradictions to Gods word. Praise Jesus I and my kids were not assimilated. A very close call, however.

[Indiana]

Here is the RECORD Ron, and it is not good. Will you come to a table of fellowship?


INDIANA
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=88


OHIO
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...9&postcount=89




Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

Both Ron Kangas and Minoru Chen have spoken out AGAIN about the so-called rebellious ones, taking heed only to the official narrative created by Witness Lee on our church history. There is no conscience involved except to be faithful to the "canonized" words of one man, who says,

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy. WL)

Brothers I don't get paid for what I do, so I have no financial interests to protect a man and his ministry, or not. I tell the truth for free. No President WOULD THINK THAT HE ALONE COULD WRITE THE HISTORY OF HIS PRESIDENCY and that others should have no freedom to check the FACTS and tell, especially the parts seriously missing from the official script. I write about the hidden history of Witness Lee and the Local Churches.

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Here is the RECORD Ron, and it is not good. Will you come to a table of fellowship?


INDIANA
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=88


OHIO
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...9&postcount=89


LEADERS

Both Ron Kangas and Minoru Chen have spoken out AGAIN about the so-called rebellious ones, taking heed only to the official narrative created by Witness Lee on our church history. There is no conscience involved except to be faithful to the canonized words of one man, who says,

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy)

Brothers I don't get paid for what I do, so I have no financial interests to protect a man and his ministry. I tell the truth for free. No man has the right to declare that others should have no more freedom to check with the FACTS and tell the truth according to their findings.

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

If your business model is to bring others into bondage you cannot tell the truth because the truth will set them free.