The changed role of women in the LCM

[aron]

In Watchman Nee's biography we see a lot of women having influential, even prominent roles in the early narrative: Margaret Barber, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Ruth Lee, Elizabeth Fischbacher, Mary McDonough, a certain "Miss Groves" (a co-worker of Barber). Then once he and then Lee were fully "raised up by God", suddenly women were supposed to be "silent in the church"? Anyone else notice this big change?

The obvious answer is that everyone was supposed to be silent in the church, once Nee began to speak. There was thenceforth to be "one trumpet", and it was "God's oracle" (who was the same person teaching that there should be 'one trumpet', naturally). It wasn't that the role of women in the church was suddenly eliminated, it was that every role was eliminated! Women were to be silent and men were to be feminized, quiet and docile. Just repeat what the oracle says. "Elders" were leading repeaters and cheerleaders, with women as associate repeaters and cheerleaders. There's no longer male nor female, as Nee's "normal church" only recognizes one "giant" and the rest as "small potatoes", and both are gender-neutral (except maybe the giant can't be a woman?)

What's the thinking here? Did this ever get explicated? I know that Nee was also influenced by men - Robert Govett, D.M. Panton, John Nelson Darby, Father Fenelon, Brother Lawrence, Evan Roberts... but the incongruity of women taking an initially prominent role in his movement, changing to women taking NO role whatsoever, is so striking that you'd think that some apologist for the Nee/Lee system would try to address it.

My possible LSM-explanation is that women like Peace Wang and Dora Yu and Margaret Barber and Mary McDonough and Jessie Penn-Lewis were able to minister independently in the "wild" years pre-Nee, who we all know was thenceforth God's "Seer of the age". Once Nee began to minister there was no need for a Dora Yu or Peace Wang or Ruth Lee to function as teacher, shepherd, evangelist or prophet. Suddenly "order was restored in the church" and sisters could once again become silent, as Paul had urged (right after he told slaves to be obedient... ha-ha). The church became "normal" again under the apostle of the age.

Any other ideas? Have the apologists for LSM, or Nee or Lee for that matter, ever addressed this? Something doesn't seem right here.... did the official "history of the church and the local churches" ever try to paper over this glaring incongruity -- that women went from having key roles in the movement's formative years, to having no roles whatsoever outside of children's service? Or was this large shift something whose existence we shouldn't acknowledge? As in, "Lee never talked about it, therefore we ignore it".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

In Watchman Nee's biography we see a lot of women having influential, even prominent roles in the early narrative: Margaret Barber, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Ruth Lee, Elizabeth Fischbacher, Mary McDonough, a certain "Miss Groves" (a co-worker of Barber). Then once he and then Lee were fully "raised up by God", suddenly women were supposed to be "silent in the church"? Anyone else notice this big change?

The obvious answer is that everyone was supposed to be silent in the church, once Nee began to speak. There was thenceforth to be "one trumpet", and it was "God's oracle" (who was the same person teaching that there should be 'one trumpet', naturally). It wasn't that the role of women in the church was suddenly eliminated, it was that every role was eliminated! Women were to be silent and men were to be feminized, quiet and docile. Just repeat what the oracle says. "Elders" were leading repeaters and cheerleaders, with women as associate repeaters and cheerleaders. There's no longer male nor female, as Nee's "normal church" only recognizes one "giant" and the rest as "small potatoes", and both are gender-neutral (except maybe the giant can't be a woman?)

What's the thinking here? Did this ever get explicated? I know that Nee was also influenced by men - Robert Govett, D.M. Panton, John Nelson Darby, Father Fenelon, Brother Lawrence, Evan Roberts... but the incongruity of women taking an initially prominent role in his movement, changing to women taking NO role whatsoever, is so striking that you'd think that some apologist for the Nee/Lee system would try to address it.

My possible LSM-explanation is that women like Peace Wang and Dora Yu and Margaret Barber and Mary McDonough and Jessie Penn-Lewis were able to minister independently in the "wild" years pre-Nee, who we all know was thenceforth God's "Seer of the age". Once Nee began to minister there was no need for a Dora Yu or Peace Wang or Ruth Lee to function as teacher, shepherd, evangelist or prophet. Suddenly "order was restored in the church" and sisters could once again become silent, as Paul had urged (right after he told slaves to be obedient... ha-ha). The church became "normal" again under the apostle of the age.

Any other ideas? Have the apologists for LSM, or Nee or Lee, for this matter ever tried to address this? Something doesn't seem right here.... did the official "history of the church and the local churches" ever try to paper over this glaring incongruity -- that women went from having key roles in the movement's formative years, to having no roles whatsoever outside of children's service? Or was this large shift something whose existence we shouldn't acknowledge? As in, "Lee never talked about it, therefore we ignore it".

Well look what happened to Thankful Jane ... it was labelled the sisters rebellion.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well look what happened to Thankful Jane ... it was labelled the sisters rebellion.

Yes... these sisters didn't know their place, and rebelled. In the Pre-Nee years she could have functioned, as it was "every (wo)man to their own tent". But once the True Leader emerged she had to recognize Divine Authority and ask permisssion to speak. No permission, no speakie.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well look what happened to Thankful Jane ... it was labelled the sisters rebellion.

Originally Posted by aron

Yes... these sisters didn't know their place, and rebelled. In the Pre-Nee years she could have functioned, as it was "every (wo)man to their own tent". But once the True Leader emerged she had to recognize Divine Authority and ask permisssion to speak. No permission, no speakie.

I think the story of Sandee Rapoport in Anaheim was even more compelling. IIRC Thankful Jane was the victim of a copycat crime Benson Phillips was only doing to Jane what Lee was doing to Sandee.

As the story goes, Max learned that Phillip Lee was romancing the volunteer staff at LSM, and was brave enough to confront Phillip about it. When Witness Lee heard what Max did, his love affair with the Rapoports was over. According to the old Chinese custom, the way to get your "adversary" was by shaming his wife. And that's what Lee did to Sandee, branding her the leader of the sisters' rebellion.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think the story of Sandee Rapoport in Anaheim was even more compelling. IIRC Thankful Jane was the victim of a copycat crime Benson Phillips was only doing to Jane what Lee was doing to Sandee.

As the story goes, Max learned that Phillip Lee was romancing the volunteer staff at LSM, and was brave enough to confront Phillip about it. When Witness Lee heard what Max did, his love affair with the Rapoports was over. According to the old Chinese custom, the way to get your "adversary" was by shaming his wife. And that's what Lee did to Sandee, branding her the leader of the sisters' rebellion.

My experience is that any initiative taken by sisters is viewed suspiciously. More often than not, the reason that I have seen sisters taking initiative is because the brothers refuse to deal with a problem or to address a situation that should have been dealt with a long time ago. I don't see any wrong in that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

More often than not, the reason that I have seen sisters taking initiative is because the brothers refuse to deal with a problem or to address a situation that should have been dealt with a long time ago. I don't see any wrong in that.

That's what my wife did when we met with a Baptist church. Brothers tend to be passive especially when it's a brother they discipled.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

According to the old Chinese custom, the way to get your "adversary" was by shaming his wife. And that's what Lee did to Sandee, branding her the leader of the sisters' rebellion.

If I recall from thebereans.net forum. didn't the same happen to Christian Chen? His wife was shamed while he wasn't present.
With Max and Sandee, I believe Sandee was shamed while Max was in Chicago?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When Witness Lee heard what Max did, his love affair with the Rapoports was over. According to the old Chinese custom, the way to get your "adversary" was by shaming his wife. And that's what Lee did to Sandee, branding her the leader of the sisters' rebellion.

Whatever happened to, "When your brother sins against you, first go to them privately"? Did that get trumped by an old Chinese custom?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

My experience is that any initiative taken by sisters is viewed suspiciously. More often than not, the reason that I have seen sisters taking initiative is because the brothers refuse to deal with a problem or to address a situation that should have been dealt with a long time ago. I don't see any wrong in that.

but Sandee came on the forum to state that everything she did was in fellowship with Lee, who was a regular visitor in their home.

Originally Posted by Terry

If I recall from thebereans.net forum. didn't the same happen to Christian Chen? His wife was shamed while he wasn't present.
With Max and Sandee, I believe Sandee was shamed while Max was in Chicago?

do you have more details of this?

Originally Posted by aron

Whatever happened to, "When your brother sins against you, first go to them privately"? Did that get trumped by an old Chinese custom?

when it came to Lee's relationship with his sons, he was Chinese first, and Christian last. There is just no other way to explain history.

[aron]

Margaret Barber, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Ruth Lee, Elizabeth Fischbacher, Mary McDonough, a certain "Miss Groves" (a co-worker of Barber)...

- Robert Govett, D.M. Panton, John Nelson Darby, Father Fenelon, Brother Lawrence, Evan Roberts, Andrew Murray...

All of these were admittedly influences; men as well as women. But perhaps the "one ministry per age" model, which hurried in so closely behind the "one church per city" idea, subsumes the argument of the role, influence, or place of women within the church. The "one ministry" model might allow women to have influence, to teach and to preach, in the wild and disorganized years before the "Seer of the divine revelation in the present age" was fully revealed. In other words, in the leadership vacuum what else could they do but function? God didn't like it, but God overlooked it, temporarily. But once the True Leader emerged, then the weaker sex could take their proper place, quiet and subservient. So you could simultaneously honor the firebrand Dora Yu and forbid any new Dora Yu from emerging from within the assembly.

The key is how you tell the story - if you tell the story right, you can both honor the past and disregard it. But one needs to be selective with history: acknowledge, even loudly, those whom are recognized as examples. Martin Luther's case comes quickly to mind, as does Paul's. But what about all those blank spots, like the "Pre-Nee years"? And what about John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards, ministering simultaneously? And what to do with the apostle John, who both preceded Paul and outlived him, perhaps by decades? Was John ever subservient to Paul, and then perhaps Timothy as Paul's hand-picked successor? Or was it usually just the "wild west", with women speaking, and teaching, and so forth? Where would Jessie Penn-Lewis fit in, today?

Really, the story has to be spread pretty thinly to survive. Don't dig too much. And it may not address the role of women in a satisfactory way... but I couldn't think of any other LC exegesis which even came close.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

In Watchman Nee's biography we see a lot of women having influential, even prominent roles in the early narrative: Margaret Barber, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Ruth Lee, Elizabeth Fischbacher, Mary McDonough, a certain "Miss Groves" (a co-worker of Barber). Then once he and then Lee were fully "raised up by God", suddenly women were supposed to be "silent in the church"? Anyone else notice this big change?

Thanks for starting this thread. This is a question that I have often complicated myself. It always struck me as somewhat odd that WN held such great respect for these women preachers, yet the view in the LC is pretty much the exact opposite of that. In the current LC context, could M.E. Barber ever pass for a FTT trainer? This is essentially who she was to Nee.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Have the apologists for LSM, or Nee or Lee for that matter, ever addressed this? Something doesn't seem right here.... did the official "history of the church and the local churches" ever try to paper over this glaring incongruity -- that women went from having key roles in the movement's formative years, to having no roles whatsoever outside of children's service? Or was this large shift something whose existence we shouldn't acknowledge? As in, "Lee never talked about it, therefore we ignore it".

Bringing this forward.

With all the apologetic LSM sites recently emerging, let's make this a faq - a frequently asked question - about why they sell books by Mary McDonough (''God's Plan...") on LSM book sales page, yet don't allow women to teach? About where a Peace Wang would fit in, today? Let's ask, how RK makes denigrating statements about "women's place" and then in the next message lauding Margaret Barber for turning Watchman Nee into Minister of the Age?

We could list several women who had prominent roles in Watchman Nee's formative years, and his Little Flock's rise. Elizabeth Fischbacher, Ruth Lee, Dora Yu, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Barber, McDonough... where would any of them fit in, today?

"By deliberately putting himself before Miss Barber's instruction and strict rebukes, Brother Nee received much help."

http://mebarber.ccws.org/

Remember, this is presented not as Watchman Nee in children's meeting, getting his first Bible lessons, but as Watchman Nee the young adult former Methodist going to the equivalent of "full time training" in "God's present [recovered] move". How to reconcile this with the LC seen today? Until someone explains what's going on, the impression is given that they make it up as they go along, and no one's supposed to notice that today's narrative doesn't match yesterday's at all - in fact it's diametrically opposed.