Signs of Decline in LSMs Recovery - Tomes

[UntoHim]

Signs of Decline in LSMs Recovery - Tomes

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Signs of Decline in LSMs Recovery - Tomes

From my personal contact with other Christians, virtually no one has heard of Witness Lee, except for those who attended Christian clubs in university. A friend of mine who attended Intervarsity said that everyone goes through an orientation on campus explaining the dangers of Witness Lee, however, the impression given was that most of Watchman Nee's stuff was still okay.

Regarding my own LC experience, I did get a sense of stagnation in my LC before I left. Virtually every new person who came into our church life was a church kid, or was already in the LCs and only came because they moved into the area. There were barely any new ones, and the few that were attained eventually left. I found it not surprising because I once brought two of my close friends from college to a meeting where Ron Kangas was speaking, they headed for the exits after five minutes and said the atmosphere was extremely creepy and I was quite embarrassed.

There was always a sense of desperation in the LCs to increase their numbers. Before I left, they were really pushing the system of "vital groups" and the "God Ordained Way" as the solution to all their problems. Ironically, it's what made me really want to head for the exit as it was through that movement where I was exposed to more of the extreme teachings by Witness Lee which outrightly contradict the bible.

I remember my LC elder once saying "if you total those who left our LC and compare it to the ones here now, we would be a tiny minority". The number of ex-LCers probably dwarfs those still in the LCs by a wide margin. You get sometimes get a sense on this forum that the ex-LCers are like the smaller rebel alliance in star wars and the LCs are the empire, but we're probably the overwhelming majority and it's reflected in the active posters here.

Maybe virtually every current LC-er is destined to be an ex-LCer, interesting if you think about it, and perhaps a reason why we should still love and never give up on those in the LCs...

Regarding the comparisons, I like the references to Tim Keller and Francis Chan. They are some of my favorite pastors as well, and I found them to be of a great help after leaving because they destroyed my previous indoctrination that good Christian teaching was only found in Witness Lee's ministry.

Tim Keller's apologetic sermons were pivotal for one of my friends coming to Christ who was previously a strong atheist and humanist. Francis Chan is good for a wake up call everyone now and then. One of my favorite sermons from him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havd_RVXOEM

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by bearbear

From my personal contact with other Christians, virtually no one has heard of Witness Lee, except for those who attended Christian clubs in university. A friend of mine who attended Intervarsity said that everyone goes through an orientation on campus explaining the dangers of Witness Lee, however, the impression given was that most of Watchman Nee's stuff was still okay.

Regarding my own LC experience, I did get a sense of stagnation in my LC before I left. Virtually every new person who came into our church life was a church kid, or was already in the LCs and only came because they moved into the area. There were barely any new ones, and the few that were attained eventually left. I found it not surprising because I once brought two of my close friends from college to a meeting where Ron Kangas was speaking, they headed for the exits after five minutes and said the atmosphere was extremely creepy and I was quite embarrassed.

There was always a sense of desperation in the LCs to increase their numbers. Before I left, they were really pushing the system of "vital groups" and the "God Ordained Way" as the solution to all their problems. Ironically, it's what made me really want to head for the exit as it was through that movement where I was exposed to more of the extreme teachings by Witness Lee which outrightly contradict the bible.

I remember my LC elder once saying "if you total those who left our LC and compare it to the ones here now, we would be a tiny minority". The number of ex-LCers probably dwarfs those still in the LCs by a wide margin. You get sometimes get a sense on this forum that the ex-LCers are like the smaller rebel alliance in star wars and the LCs are the empire, but we're probably the overwhelming majority and it's reflected in the active posters here.

Maybe virtually every current LC-er is destined to be an ex-LCer, interesting if you think about it, and perhaps a reason why we should still love and never give up on those in the LCs...

Regarding the comparisons, I like the references to Tim Keller and Francis Chan. They are some of my favorite pastors as well, and I found them to be of a great help after leaving because they destroyed my previous indoctrination that good Christian teaching was only found in Witness Lee's ministry.

Tim Keller's apologetic sermons were pivotal for one of my friends coming to Christ who was previously a strong atheist and humanist. Francis Chan is good for a wake up call everyone now and then. One of my favorite sermons from him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havd_RVXOEM

You hit the nail on the head, bearbear.

I suppose the fringe rebels eventually become an Empire of their own. By the end of Animal Farm, the pigs are in the house playing cards with the humans...

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I suppose the fringe rebels eventually become an Empire of their own...

George Lucas sold his Star Wars/Industrial Light empire to the Trade Federation, aka Disney, for some $4 Billion dollars.... eventually the evil Empire wins. So what if the RCC builds a Basilica which is hailed as the wonder of the world, or the Mormons field a presidential candidate, or if LSM opens training centers around the world? More empire-building. My impression, as one who was in it, is that it's all worldly: it's of the world, in the world, and for the world; it's empire-building. It's disguised in spiritual garb, but at its core it is Babylon redux. Towers that will fall. How high they climb before they fall is irrelevant. As Jimmy Cliff put it, "the harder they come, the harder they fall."

The Idumean (Edomite) usurper, Herod, slayer of Judeans, rebuilt the temple to its massive glory. "Master, look at all these giant stones piled up skillfully! How impressive!" As if that was what God was after.

Luke 21:5,6 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

Originally Posted by Friedel

What would really interest me is numbers. How many are members of the Local Church in the US, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia as well as countries in the Far East. How does today's statistics compare with that of 1985?

Perhaps Nigel can provide some input on that.

Agreed. Tomes has time and interest enough to analyze web traffic. Why not simply look at LSM & Lord's Recovery numbers? Are they too untrustworthy? Or not forthcoming?

Try some searches (www.google.com/trends) on all kinds of other things--current Christian writers, past Christian writers, Christian publishing companies, historical figures, political leaders past and present, etc., and Tomes' statistics may no longer appear to be so significant.

Here a few tests I ran: Lee Strobel, Norman Geisler, A.W. Tozer, Zondervan, Harvest House, Kregel, English Standard Version, Doubleday, Penguin Books New York Times, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Booker T Washington, Calvin Coolidge, Tony Blair, Obama.

Others appear to be having the same problem...

[Friedel]

I have ambivalent feelings about the interesting and wide-ranging statistics provided by Nigel Tomes, not that I question them; in fact, I would like to see it compared to other criteria, as well. I am just not convinced that they necessarily prove a decline in membership or interest in Nee, Lee and/or the Local Church. Fact is, current membership only consume and digest the sanitized fare of Nee/Lee, nothing else. Why would they then have a need to do internet searches?

("Sanitized fare" means Paul Kerr's famous questions have been deleted as well as possibly the names and contributions of other "rebels". This is LSM's "spiritual" version of the paleo diet.)

For instance, I left fifteen years ago so I have no frame of reference to the turmoil of 2004–2006; I know very little about that but I assume that was the cutting off of Dong Yu Lan and Titus Chu.

I just believe you cannot confidently compare searches for Watchman Nee or Witness Lee with those of modern-day preachers who use the internet extensively to further their ministries and come to a conclusion whether the membership of the Local Church is shrinking or not; LSM does not use the internet extensively to promote the Local Churches. Sure, they maintain an internet presence but that is mainly as a library reference.

And the Local Church has changed: it has become more structured than fifteen or twenty years ago. It now has several permanent full-time training centers globally so the lecturers travel from Anaheim or wherever to the different training centers. They spend two weeks completing their own curriculum before leaving again. They do this every semester. I suppose many of the trainees have never even been to La Palma in Anaheim or Taipei but they would possibly be more familiar with London, Hamilton or Pretoria.

We could actually describe it as a decentralization of staff and assets. This could possibly be classified as effective measures, yet not reflect in statistics.

What would really interest me is numbers. How many are members of the Local Church in the US, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia as well as countries in the Far East. How does today's statistics compare with that of 1985?

Perhaps Nigel can provide some input on that.

By the way, I tested the Lee Harvey Oswald blemishes on searches for Witness Lee. So I Googled "John Ingalls" and got two hits on the first two pages for the John Ingalls we know, with one hit linking to this forum. It certainly doesn't help that there was famous politician more than a century ago by the name of John James Ingalls.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Friedel

What would really interest me is numbers. How many are members of the Local Church in the US, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia as well as countries in the Far East. How does today's statistics compare with that of 1985?

This interests me as well. I HIGHLY suspect that non-Asian membership in North America is down significantly from the peak years (late 70s - late 80s?)
My understanding is that the FTTA (Anaheim) is heavily weighted towards non-American Asians. Of course this is NOT meant to be a slight towards all the dear young ones from Asia, only to say that the attraction/retention of young, native-born American kids seems to be trending downwards.

I might be wrong. If I am I'm sure our "Unregistered" friend will let us know!

[Freedom]

I think Nigel’s analysis is very well written and makes a good point. It goes without saying that an analysis of search results is not going to be conclusive. His writing is more of something that can dispel the ideas set forth by the LSM and LC that they have exactly what Americans need. The LC has their “GTCA” website. The whole idea behind that is that somehow “The Recovery” is going to spread all across America, lots of LC’s will be raised up, people will be reading LSM books, etc. I think what Nigel’s writing does best is show that there is no increase in the popularity of WN or WL.


It’s easy for people to claim that this is some type of popularity contest between LCers and ex-LCers. I don’t think that’s the intention of Nigel’s writing at all. I believe the whole point of this is to show that if the LC’s and LSM want to be honest with themselves, they have to: 1) admit that they aren’t accomplishing their goals, and 2) admit that they can’t meet people’s needs in the present with the rapidly aging writings of WN and WL. Since I am in the LC, I know how much the notion is pushed that people are just waiting to be handed a RcV, or to be introduced to WN and WL. It is rather relieving to realize that, no you’re not a complete failure because you can’t get people interested in the LC or WN/WL.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This interests me as well. I HIGHLY suspect that non-Asian membership in North America is down significantly from the peak years (late 70s - late 80s?)
My understanding is that the FTTA (Anaheim) is heavily weighted towards non-American Asians. Of course this is NOT meant to be a slight towards all the dear young ones from Asia, only to say that the attraction/retention of young, native-born American kids seems to be trending downwards.

I might be wrong. If I am I'm sure our "Unregistered" friend will let us know!

I get this impression as well. I know they have said that they want more "average Americans". Obviously this isn't happening, and I think Nigel's writing shows that this won't be happening.

I always felt that the FTTA is the "glue" that holds the LC together. If it weren't for the FTTA, I think there would be a serious lack of younger saints. I think what the FTTA accomplishes is that it makes the graduates feel they owe a debt to the LC, and thus they have to stay and participate in the LC. Most who I've seen attend the FTTA recently were pushed to go, they weren't too keen on going. I think the real situation is clear, it is just something LC leadership needs to come to terms with.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I always felt that the FTTA is the "glue" that holds the LC together. If it weren't for the FTTA, I think there would be a serious lack of younger saints.

From the late 90's I felt the FTTA creates a caste system among the young people. If you're one with a view in mind to attend FTTA, you will receive much care and shepherding. If you don't have an ambition for FTTA, you don't feel wanted, needed, or cared for. By the time you're 19-21, if you go to a Sunday meeting it's out of tradition.
Problem is FTTA creates an environment where young people don't want to stick around if FTTA isn't a goal.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Terry

From the late 90's I felt the FTTA creates a caste system among the young people. If you're one with a view in mind to attend FTTA, you will receive much care and shepherding. If you don't have an ambition for FTTA, you don't feel wanted, needed, or cared for. By the time you're 19-21, if you go to a Sunday meeting it's out of tradition.
Problem is FTTA creates an environment where young people don't want to stick around if FTTA isn't a goal.

This is quite an indictment but it proves the Local Church of the 20th century is a whole lot different from the one of the present day.

The former Local Church had a charismatic King Pin who could bully everyone into submission with the assistance of his uncharismatic Under Pins. When the King Pin eventually perished the organization was left with no charismatic Under Pin. So they kind of “blended” to attempt to be THE new King Pin. How they purportedly achieved that is one of the mysteries of the age. Naturally, that failed and so they had to strategize and rebuild their faltering organization. It is known as Local Church Holism.

Dong Yu Lan was the King Pin for South America and elsewhere and after the death of the main King Pin he became a serious contender for the Throne of Pin. So, they cut him off at the knees but that did not stop him. Dong's Pin Empire today is all over. Perhaps he is now THE King Pin of the “Recovery” in the world today. I believe Titus was a King Pin Lite in his region but they also cut him off.

Bill Freeman could have been some sort of King Pin Lite in the Northwest. His messages were broadcast on several radio stations in that area, even in Africa. But the King Pin and his Under Pins did not like it so they ostracized him. (Bill Freeman said that because not even one station was interested in messages by Witness Lee, but liked his, he just had to carry on.) Bill was sidelined, traveled a bit and ended with a much smaller empire. Was he not the most charismatic and eloquent of all Under Pins?

I suspect there had to be other charismatic Under Pins before who could have built their own organizations and would have built up a following but they were eliminated along the way. Amongst the present crop of Thoroughly Blended Under Pins no one stands out (probably because they are only good at regurgitating) and they have lost their identities (or so they claim).

The above description is (only one of many) for the Local Church of the 20th Century but the modern Local Church is totally different: it seems they are in Regurgitation Boot Camp 365/24/7. There can be no joy and no life because it is all pretend.

That is the big difference between the Local Church many of us knew twenty five or more years ago and the one of today. Outwardly it looks the same but they are more and more becoming like the Exclusive Brethren, in content and in practice.

Who knows, there might even come a time when they will lock the gates to shut out “foreigners’ from the Lord’s Table or have it at 6:00 AM when most people are slowly waking up.

Inevitably, they are only one step away from their Rubicon.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Terry

Problem is FTTA creates an environment where young people don't want to stick around if FTTA isn't a goal.

I've suspected this and am concerned for some family members who have gone and one who is about to go back to the FTT. The last training I went to in Anaheim they had a "fellowship" time between breaks. I've been in sales and they were being pitched. I went with a family member to this "fellowship" during the break. They did end up going but were on the fence at the time. There were several people speaking and there was definitely an emotional pull, they hype it up with former trainees talking about how wonderful it was, talk about it being the "highest way." I saw that they were giving somewhat of a sales pitch, but it still worked! I sort of felt disappointed when I left that I couldn't go! They're good!! They did say something like, "but don't come if you're wanting to FIX your life and make sure it's what YOU want." But just the issue of being "sold" on something under the mask of "fellowship" is deceiving. I don't think they realize (I hope they don't) how serious that is- these decisions effect lives for generations, they can separate family, prevent further education. I didn't have a relationship with that family member for 2 years other than a few phone calls/emails/maybe one or two visits. They're in such a spiritual bubble, all they could talk about was what they "enjoyed" in their classes. This isn't just a Bible School, it's thought reform school. It created a mindset where they are alienated from anyone who isn't being "reformed" and creates a disconnect and the illusion that they are now "enlightened" and you aren't. That's when I'm seeing the spiritual eliteness set in. Our relationship really suffered. They would have had no idea how to respond to what was going on in my life at the time so I didn't tell them about it. It was like we were on two totally different planets. Their personality totally changed. Not their relationship with Jesus, their actual personality. I'm not saying they didn't grow in their relationship with Jesus, but I feel like the mind narrowing environment has to limit Him. I've read about thought reform and how people in these groups subconsciously take on a "cult persona." That's why they end up using the same verbage and intonations and look like clones of each other. It's not emotionally healthy. The same thing happens with leading brothers though and they think it's ok to encourage these kids to come. I wonder how many of them could actually recognize a thought reform technique and then, realize that these techniques cross spiritual boundaries with influencing people. Most spiritual abuse occurs from people who don't realize they're doling it out on people. When reading about it, I came across a list of about 20 something thought reform techniques and recognized around 2/3 of them practiced in the training. I think it's important to remember that in and of themselves, they're not all bad. It's the combination of them, number, and degrees in which they're used that creates thought reform (AKA brainwashing). The list included things like uniforms, strict schedules, shared living quarters, high teaching/big words, public testing of ones knowledge/public repetitive reciting of teachings, the us vs. them mentality, the idea that they are "set apart" and "above" other groups, a common shared goal involving much personal sacrifice, limiting family/friends outside the group, repetitive memorizing/speaking, benign rules, many of them though, that create an environment without questioning, reducing personal experiences that are "natural" and focusing on the "spiritual" (that one is a big one- being in your Spirit is not always their SPIRIT), its just the "flow" of repetitive "one-ness" and "flow" of the group. To speak out or question is automatically abhorrent, no matter the issue, because it's against the flow. There's a reverence to the leading ones where they are not accountable and with no path to question them, yet the people under their control are held to the strictest levels of accountability. Group think reigns in the "corporate" environment. There are many more but my point is- it took me a long time to realize that even if the teaching WAS spot on, the environment is a thought reform model and it's not acceptable!! These are methods that have been used in communist and suppressive governments and also in cults. These methods, maybe aside from a uniform and living quarters- which is just practical, shouldn't be used in a Christian Bible school. Christ can change our thoughts without thought reform tactics. But you can change the way a person thinks, especially at that age. I just see through it and wish more people did. If more people knew how it actually is, maybe they would think twice about going or discourage their family from going....

These tactics scare me because right now, there seems to be a big push to migrate to Europe. I know some older people who have actually moved there and more that are visiting often. Even the "blending trips" once every 2 years have been in other countries. I have an underlying feeling some of my family will so this topic hits a nerve with me. I just hope it helps anyone reading to realize how much they are influencing the people there. Most of us would agree, Jesus works on us differently and at different paces and times. Also, the "corporate" mentality there only LIMITS individual growth in Christ. It's very widely accepted outside of the LC that much INDIVIDUAL time in the word and prayer is needed- the FTT is the opposite! Not to mention, the schedule they have to keep just limits creativity and natural relationships in your life. Which of course, according to Lee- you shouldn't have "natural" relationships- this idea is crazy to me. The point is, the FTT is very systematic. How is this expressing Christ? It's so obvious to me this is how the Pharisees lived. If you really wanted to teach people the Bible, give them a study Bible and have them do it on their own time. I heard they had an online training now. I think that's more directed towards parents or people with careers though. Why can't the 20 somethings do that? Oh yeah, you'd probably lose some of the thought reform effectiveness. I apologize if I sound bitter, I'm obviously anti-FTT/LSM and hate seeing my family so involved with them. I just don't know why people count on this system to study the Bible. I'm sure there is library in their city they could go to every day!!

Sorry for going on but I really agree with you that the FTT wants full-timers, that's their goal. I think something that helps in that goal is that many of these people in FTT are so eager to get married after 2 years of little communication (always supervised) with the opposite sex that getting married and going full time seems like the "natural path" that's laid for them after graduating. Marriage feels like it becomes an increasingly big "idol" for them. Marriage is hard and there's a lot to deal with combining lives, etc. so it's just easier to be a full-timer since they're already trained in doing that. Taking on marriage and finding a career -yikes! My point is, the path of a full-timer is a much easier transition (in the beginning) for the trainees. And let's be honest, they just want to get married. Many end up marrying people from the FTT, but they don't really know each other and they fall in love with the "idea" of that person. There's also the hype of "waiting" and figuring out who is "spoken for." It can EASILY become the "ultimate goal," especially for the women. Now, I haven't been to the FTT but my family has and many friends. I've talked to them about all this and even in the LC, I have friends who agree this is an issue. In summary, its just not a healthy environment to emotionally grow and mature.

I just think these kids stay "kids" in and after the FTT because they lack real experiences in the world that naturally encourage healthy emotional growth. They are stuck in a system where they have to "ask" permission for too many things. I think getting married being probably the most important one but they don't learn to rely on their own feelings enough when they're in this lifestyle. There has to be a balance. They come out different people that struggle in society and are EXTREMELY SUSCEPTIBLE to suggestion. Many DO end up moving and going "full-time" because it's just easier! But right ahead for them, there's pressure to live up to a standard that is really unrealistic (I think we've all seen that). The way you dress, decorate your home, your entertainment, even how you plan your wedding is all so strangely similar among the people in the LC. I actually am at the point of dreading weddings of people in the LC. Luckily, my friends and family are a little older now so it's not as common. The "meeting wedding" is what usually happens and I know it's not always what people want to do. I have a friend who wanted dancing and was basically told that would be a very "low" thing to do. I know her and it would have probably been extremely PG and songs picked very carefully. But it was strongly discouraged. She didn't even want alcohol, just a fun reception. She ended up being so frustrated with the whole thing that she just did it in someone's home, with 20 people. It wasn't a "meeting wedding" but I guess it was considered acceptable. Those that dare to have something different actually feel guilty on some level. It's an "unspoken rule" to follow the LC wedding standard. Even for one of my family members weddings, they had a more normal wedding, but did give their "testimonies" in front of everyone. Obviously, I love my family and I'm happy that they are happy with the way they met, courted, gave each other back to the Lord, waited for years, fellowshipped with other people, saved themselves for marriage, and then- when everyone gave the "OK" they got married. I feel like it's just one example of how these 20 something adults can't do anything without "fellowship" or really, permission. And when they finally do it, the need to over explain how they did it the "right" way and now they're very "blessed" is too much. It's ok to just say, "We love the Lord, each other, and feel he brought us together." It was like this whole subliminal "perfect" example of how to do things as a young adult in the church life. It was explained to everyone at the wedding for at least 30 minutes, if not more. That, and their wedding website with their testimonies was just too much. As happy as I was for them, I know myself and a couple of my friends were like, "well, we can't all be perfect!" And the thing is, their "story" was just a LITTLE focused more on "giving the other person to the Lord" than I felt like what was actually going on. I don't know, but I think they both knew before the training that they would get back together. They followed the unspoken rules though and did have a great "example" to talk about- and they did. I'm saying all this not to knock on my family because it's not their fault they've eventually given in subconsciously to the pressure. But seeing it from the outside, I can see how their behavior meets their need to be "right" but that is really just creates more pressure in the LC lifestyle to do things a "certain way." The guilt/shame of going against the wind just reinforces a very unrealistic standard. There's little "breaking the mold." I feel like people reading can probably relate- the weddings and way to get married is all an unspoken system. It's just the "way" to do it in the LC. Some people can fall in line, a lot of them can't and just have to see this "standard" that is unrealistic. For myself, it creates not only pressure but guilt/shame for not being able to be this standard. Of course, we all want to do things the "right" way and maybe that was the right way for them, but the marriage "unspoken rules" are just part of the "path" that is laid out for anyone in the LC, and ESPECIALLY the trainees. Can you imagine the reaction if two trainees eloped to Vegas or Mexico??? It would almost be labelled a SIN. But, its not. It's their lives, they can elope and do whatever they want. Just the SHOCK of someone even doing that though shows what a SYSTEM they are in.

I'm not meaning to write so much, I apologize. I obviously feel strongly about this issue. The biggest issue for me (as annoying as the wedding stuff is) is the pressure to move to college towns being a full-timer. I know of several women who were in the training that ended up moving to these random towns, raising kids, are married to full-timers, several of them have little to no work experience and they aren't happy. Some have made friends and made the best of it (I feel like they still wonder "what if?") but most of their extended families don't see them regularly. THIS is what is happening. I know at least two who are suffering from depression and would probably do it over differently if given the chance. I know a few people in and out of the LC who have moved to another country and I don't think they're preparing people for the culture shock of this enormous decision!! Depression is a normal occurrence with moving to another country. Just getting acclimated and learning a language, being totally isolated from everything you know- is extremely hard on people. Not to mention, your support system is no longer your family, it's the church. I just don't like seeing people being exploited (in my opinion), and I think they're convincing people to live a life after thought reform tactics are used on them and it's just unfair. There are people in Europe that can take care of Europe, right? Why is it the job now of the local church (especially since reading the LC's in the US are down to 300 churches with just 25K members after 4 decades) to send people to Europe for the "Lord's move." The problem is, if you know anything about business or sales (I don't know much but it doesn't take an expert to see) you can recognize that in order to sell something, you must create passion/excitement. There's this exciting thing available and now, you're made to feel like you're "missing out" if you don't "buy in." Combine that with some thought reform tactics on someone in their early 20's, separate them from their family, have their years "wasted" in service to the LC when they could be getting a better education, give them some responsibilities and "burdens to carry" to create pressure not to leave, stroke their ego's every now and again, by then they'll have kids so all the pressure is on the husband to continue on this path(many full timers wives are stay at home moms who might do "service" in the local church office- nothing wrong with that, just how it is), create a desperate need (right now it's Europe. Syrian refugees salvation is now LC responsibility apparently) and tell everyone that the churches must be "built up" in Europe- or the Lord won't return (common goal created). This creates hype, the feeling of being in a group, the feeling of being part of a higher purpose bigger than yourself. Now these can all be great things, but what is the cost of this? Leaving your family? Can you honestly look at this situation and flip it- look at LSM and see how they may be profiting from this. Of course, I believe in mission work and we should associate ourselves with groups that are helping others and preaching the gospel. But, LSM is growing and growing as more people migrate to Europe and "build up" the churches. The people who are making decisions for the churches, also run LSM. We have a conflict of interest in play and are supposed to still trust that those people in control are for the Lord's Move in Europe. It makes zero sense to me that people don't see this. I might have more trust in these brothers that govern the "Lord's Move" if they didn't also control the business that would of course, supply all the materials to be sold, and hosts all the "events" that would be paid to attend, and then use tithes to pay for the DCP (legal team).

How did it get like this? For those who know the LC, right now- you will recognize this. I'm not saying all the saints are signing up to move to Europe, but they do believe and are convinced that the Lord is "moving" there because of the Lord's Recovery. Maybe it is. Get rid of all the conflicts of interest and lack of accountability and maybe I'll believe it then! It's way too shady right now.

Sorry for taking over this thread, I just think the point that you made about the goal of producing full-timers isn't a small thing. The way they're doing it uses manipulative practices and even if the leading brothers truly believe that they need to ask people to move to Europe, I hope they would realize that the methods in place to produce this outcome is nothing short of cruel. When people are taught to never question and live in a bubble of other people who are exactly the same, and they're hearing the same thing over and over and over again- yeah, you could probably get them to move to the other side of the world for what you think is the GOAL that needs to be attained.

But, how much of that is the Lord and how much are the methods meant to influence? At what point to you justify using the methods and thinking that the Lord will lead them away from it if they're supposed to be led away. Thought reform has been used and probably already narrowed their mindset and reduced their ability to think about what they want for THEIR life. They're wanting to do this now because they are on a "high mission" for the Lord (in their minds) and it's their responsibility now to help fulfill God's eternal purpose as their "place in the Body." Because of course, that's the way to lead people to Christ- only in the Lord's Recovery and living the full-timer's life will make them the "most useful" in accomplishing this goal. It's a set way, set path, no room for the Lord to lead another way. It's ok though because why would the Lord lead you another way? The leading brother's obviously know the way and the Lord's goal and your function in the body should never question that. The idea that the Lord could lead them another way never becomes a question for many of them- and that is scary. They can't help it- they've been in thought reform. This is it for them.....Agh, I could go on and on, I apologize. It gets me worked up. It's spiritual abuse and people don't see it.

The term I heard OFTEN was, "it's so PRECIOUS to waste your younger years on the Lord." Well, what that means is- "how lucky for you that you get to give us all your 20's and do the bidding for our agenda." Because of course, to waste your younger years on the Lord could never mean to do anything outside the Lord's Recovery and goals of the leading brothers.

Sorry for being long winded- I could probably split this up on different threads. There are just so many controlling forces at work and I take it personally with my family involved. I wish people could see this more. I strongly believe their lives are being exploited and it's a social injustice at this point.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I get this impression as well. I know they have said that they want more "average Americans". Obviously this isn't happening, and I think Nigel's writing shows that this won't be happening.

A brother once tried to explain to me how when Lee referred to "Caucasians," he really meant "native-born Americans" (i.e., when he talked about the need to recruit Caucasians). In other words, he did not actually intend to exclude other groups, for example, African-Americans. I wondered, if that's the case, why did he insist on using this word, "Caucasians"?

Originally Posted by Freedom

I always felt that the FTTA is the "glue" that holds the LC together. If it weren't for the FTTA, I think there would be a serious lack of younger saints. I think what the FTTA accomplishes is that it makes the graduates feel they owe a debt to the LC, and thus they have to stay and participate in the LC. Most who I've seen attend the FTTA recently were pushed to go, they weren't too keen on going. I think the real situation is clear, it is just something LC leadership needs to come to terms with.

I remember a study session on Ball Rd, during a biannual training, with a few hundred young people present. One of the training brothers (Dan Towle, perhaps? -- I'm not sure) addressing the full-time training graduates in the room. He was asking questions like, why would you not go full-time (as a serving one) if you graduated from the FTTA?

He also talked about those who had met their husband or wife at the FTTA, as if they owed something. He said something along the lines of, Haven't we found you the best spouse? Can't recall just how he said it. But it seemed pretty brazen, even at the time. And he was going on about it with such an air of significance...

[OBW]

It is interesting to note the trending in hits on certain search criteria. Internet usage in general has gone up over the years. And there has been an increase in information available on the internet on various subjects. So the idea that almost anything was trending up until 2004 is not necessarily a significant thing.

One of the "un-telling" things for me is the lack of actual numbers. I see a graph with a series of peaks and valleys, and an overall trend. The only place that I have any kind of evidence of at least relative numbers is when they juxtapose Lee's graph against Tim Keller. While significantly different, does it tell of a huge difference that is relative to the size of its following compared to Keller? Hard to say.

So what do trends mean?

In the early days, lots of trends were up because more and more people were busy trying to find sites and information that they had never looked to the internet for before. As they find steady sources of information, they bookmark them, never to make that particular search again — unless they decide to look for additional or alternative source. So peaking in 2004 might not be a completely unexpected thing.

News. How many hits do you think there were on the Ebola virus a year ago? Six months ago? A year from now? I expect that those three graph points will show an increase followed by a decrease. Go to many search engines, especially their "front-ends" that accumulate news of various general categories and you will find references to what is trending today. When I bother to look at the list at all, I am sometimes surprised to find a person's name that I would not expect, such as an actor that has not been in anything for some time and has not been outspoken on politics, the environment, etc. I take a look and sure enough, someone tried to break into their house, so there is some current news about them. Or they are marrying or divorcing.

What news could have people looking into Witness Lee or Watchman Nee back around 2004? Harvest House? And while this might be more internal, what about the controversies surrounding the ouster of Titus Chu? I know it wasn't in 2004. But it could have been at least part of the reason for some of the lesser peaks.

What about new items? Was Tim Keller a big name prior to 2008 when he wrote his first significant book? He had been the pastor of a major Presbyterian church in NYC for many years, but was he known outside of that much prior to his book? Mean time, how do you think hits on Elvis has gone in recent years? Probably a roller coaster since he died many years before the internet was generally accessible.

And to the extent that it was heavily searches by the insiders, what if the warnings to avoid the internet were beginning to have effect? They taper off based on the advice that you can only be poisoned by the internet (except for the LSM sites which should already be bookmarked).

And while there are surely many other possibilities, there is also the practice (that I forget the name for) of searching for something over and over and selecting the "correct" site(s) so that they will rise to the top of searches. And while that could be a difficult task for something with millions of searches a month, it would probably be easy for swaying the outcome of hits on searches for Lee, Nee, and the LSM if you were wanting to do that. And I'm sure that they do.

The thing to me is that the data, whether huge in volume, or small, is insufficiently tied to anything to provide a meaning in terms of importance. Any of those I mention could be responsible for the overall trends, or even just some of the small ups and downs. But it is difficult to say much at all when the numbers appear so small. And with the tendency for groups to make the URL for their web site available — in emails, bulletins, etc. — there is often a diminishing need for people to seek the site for the things they will commonly go to. I mean, I might end out seeking for a particular store's website near Christmas or a birthday and not maintain it in my favorites. But I am also just about as likely to just guess and type in www.bestbuy.com, and even if that is not the actual name, it will probably redirect me to it. Only if I can't find it will I go searching. I am more likely to be searching for the chords and lyrics to a song than for another religious website. I have existing favorites and they link to others. (And some of them even link to sites that are very different — even somewhat adverse — so I find that I am typically getting a lot of perspective without doing Google or Yahoo searches.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I remember a study session on Ball Rd, during a biannual training, with a few hundred young people present. One of the training brothers (Dan Towle, perhaps? -- I'm not sure) addressing the full-time training graduates in the room. He was asking questions like, why would you not go full-time (as a serving one) if you graduated from the FTTA?

He also talked about those who had met their husband or wife at the FTTA, as if they owed something. He said something along the lines of, Haven't we found you the best spouse? Can't recall just how he said it. But it seemed pretty brazen, even at the time. And he was going on about it with such an air of significance...

Based on the account of poster MichaelK from the Bereans forum I recall, it was Dan Towle who arranged which brother worked with which sister. A type of matchmaking.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I have ambivalent feelings about the interesting and wide-ranging statistics provided by Nigel Tomes, not that I question them; in fact, I would like to see it compared to other criteria, as well. I am just not convinced that they necessarily prove a decline in membership or interest in Nee, Lee and/or the Local Church. Fact is, current membership only consume and digest the sanitized fare of Nee/Lee, nothing else. Why would they then have a need to do internet searches?

Was Tomes suggesting a decline in LRC membership, or was he trying to identify trends in interest in the LRC -- primarily among those outside the group?

In other words, assuming that heavy recruiting on college campuses, or handing out lots of Recovery Version Bibles in Wal-Mart parking lots, would generate interest/curiosity, and spur people to go online to research.

Mr Tomes, care to clarify?

Originally Posted by Friedel

("Sanitized fare" means Paul Kerr's famous questions have been deleted as well as possibly the names and contributions of other "rebels". This is LSM's "spiritual" version of the paleo diet.)

For instance, I left fifteen years ago so I have no frame of reference to the turmoil of 2004–2006; I know very little about that but I assume that was the cutting off of Dong Yu Lan and Titus Chu.

I just believe you cannot confidently compare searches for Watchman Nee or Witness Lee with those of modern-day preachers who use the internet extensively to further their ministries and come to a conclusion whether the membership of the Local Church is shrinking or not; LSM does not use the internet extensively to promote the Local Churches. Sure, they maintain an internet presence but that is mainly as a library reference.

LSM has attempted to flood the internet with positive websites to make it less likely for potential new recruits to become "poisoned" by other sources. This has been their policy for roughly 15 years.

Originally Posted by Friedel

And the Local Church has changed: it has become more structured than fifteen or twenty years ago. It now has several permanent full-time training centers globally so the lecturers travel from Anaheim or wherever to the different training centers. They spend two weeks completing their own curriculum before leaving again. They do this every semester. I suppose many of the trainees have never even been to La Palma in Anaheim or Taipei but they would possibly be more familiar with London, Hamilton or Pretoria.

We could actually describe it as a decentralization of staff and assets. This could possibly be classified as effective measures, yet not reflect in statistics.

This may be true. I think for many overseas trainees, making a trip to Anaheim for a biannual training is considered as a kind of pilgrimage.

Originally Posted by Friedel

What would really interest me is numbers. How many are members of the Local Church in the US, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia as well as countries in the Far East. How does today's statistics compare with that of 1985?

Perhaps Nigel can provide some input on that.

I would interested in that too. How to get (accurate) numbers?

[Cassidy]

I became intrigued by the Google Trends analysis performed by Nigel Tomes on Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Concerning this trend Dr. Tomes declares "A downward trend in this ‘first response’—Google searches on these key words--suggests a declining interest in LSM’s ‘Recovery.’

Since Dr. Tomes wrote so many articles slamming Witness Lee during this same period I became interested in understanding if there was a contra-trend, something to indicate a rise in interest of Tomes' many writings. Here are the results (Click on the image to enlarge it and see the astounding results):




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M7oBAAgnNEJAEA4oxMAgHBGJwAA4YxOAADCGZ0AAIQzOgEACGd 0AgAQzugEACDcN3p0SpIkSQ+T0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSFZ3RKkiQpP KNTkiRJ4RmdkiRJCs/olCRJUnhGpyRJksIzOiVJkhSe0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSFZ3RKkiQpP KNTkiRJ4RmdkiRJCs/olCRJUnhGpyRJksIzOiVJkhSe0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSFZ3RKkiQpP KNTkiRJ4RmdkiRJCs/olCRJUnhGpyRJksIzOiVJkhSe0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSFZ3RKkiQpP KNTkiRJ4RmdkiRJCs/olCRJUnhGpyRJksIzOiVJkhSe0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSFZ3RKkiQpP KNTkiRJ4RmdkiRJCs/olCRJUnhGpyRJksIzOiVJkhSe0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSFZ3RKkiQpP KNTkiRJ4RmdkiRJCs/olCRJUnhGpyRJksIzOiVJkhSe0SlJkqTwjE5JkiSF9x/Wdt0oFfRjFgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==[/IMG]From the above Google Trends search on Nigel Tomes we can infer:

1) A downward trend in this ‘first response’—Google searches on these key words--suggests a declining interest in... no wait, there is no declining trend...... forget that.. ummm

2) Declining numbers of Google searches on these key terms suggest an underlying decline in interest, which will probably translate into... wait... hold that one too.... there is no declining interest because there is not enough interest to register.... let's move on....

3) Nigel Tomes regularly “wraps himself in an anti-Witness Lee mantle” and appeals to his disassociation with him. Dr. Tomes has consistently sought to leverage the unpopularity of Witness Lee with the disaffected to generate interest in his own teachings and publications. Dr. Tomes ought to be concerned about indications of declining interest in his writings... oops! ... I see.... not enough interest to plot anything.

oh well .. I guess you can't really decline from zero...

Observations: I guess Google Trend is not Nigel Tomes friend either... after all those dissertations and online postings attacking Witness Lee we can't even see a spike as is seen with Titus Chu in 2006. Nothing, nada, nunca, nyet,.... no contra-trend showing a rise in interest... not even a flat line... not a whimper.... not a blip.. nor a sliver....not even a speck..... a total non-starter (using and comparing with Dr. Tomes own methodology of course).

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Observations: I guess Google Trend is not Nigel Tomes friend either... after all those dissertations and online postings attacking Witness Lee we can't even see a spike as is seen with Titus Chu in 2006. Nothing, nada, nunca, nyet,.... no contra-trend showing a rise in interest... not even a flat line... not a whimper.... not a blip.. nor a sliver....not even a speck..... a total non-starter (using and comparing with Dr. Tomes own methodology of course).

Who says that he is trying to get his name out there? My impression is that Nigel's writings were meant to help those who have left or are considering leaving the LC. Thus, his writings serve a fairly small group of individuals.

What if this all was reversed and Google Trends showed an upward trend in the popularity of WN/WL? Would anyone be surprised if LSM started making a big deal about it?

[Cassidy]

Freedom> My impression is that Nigel's writings were meant to help those who have left or are considering leaving the LC. Thus, his writings serve a fairly small group of individuals.

I agree.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Cliffhanger

The Local Church has spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to promote the so call ministry of the age and they hardly make a blip on the radar. When you google Witness Lee most of the sites that pop up are PAID ADVERTISING from The Local Church/Living Stream Ministry or one of their front organizations which are no more than some website run from the computer of some Local Churcher sitting behind a desk over at the mother ship on La Palma in Anaheim!

I doubt Tomes gives a rip about anybody googling his name, and even if he does so what? He's not claiming to be the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth, is he?

I think you make a good point. I don't think that Nigel or anyone else assume that they can conclusively interpret Google Trends results, I think the point is that in spite of all LSM is doing to popularize WN/WL, it isn't working like they say.

People who are doing searches for the terms "Witness Lee" or "Watchman Nee" are more than likely to not be affiliated with the LC. OBW made the point, which I agree with, that LC members are more likely to be clicking links rather than searching for specific terms. I am of the position that the statistics which are most important to the LSM regarding the popularity of WN/WL are those that give insight into the general public interest in WN and WL.

I think that someone could argue that there is of a lack of interest in WN/WL from different standpoints besides Google Trends. A decreasing popularity is much harder to prove. Out of curiosity, I did a quick comparison on Amazon's rankings of WN and WL books. For example, on Amazon, WN's classic work The Normal Christian Life (non-LSM edition) is ranked as at #9,339 in books. By comparison C.S Lewis' classic Mere Chrisitianity is rated at #431. A WL classic The Economy of God is ranked at a lowly #366,449 in books. So these kinds of statistics can be found elsewhere. Of course, these numbers are by no means conclusive, and they are just overall sales, not over any specific period of time.

The point I'm trying to make is that in regards to the ideas that LSM pushes of the Recovery "spreading" all over the U.S., it isn't happening. I've heard the notion put forth that Christians are just out their waiting to be told of WN or WL and once they start reading them, all their needs will be met. Obviously WN and WL books are now widely available, and people can easily purchase them. The reality is that people are choosing to purchase other books. I browsed all the top sellers in the Christian book section and most of what I see are books by contemporary authors. That comes as no surprise to me. It shouldn't surprise anyone else either. One of Nigel's points was that WN/WL works are rapidly aging with respect to Christianity in modern America. I suppose there will always be people who read and appreciate their works, but the notion that Christians are suddenly going to go back in time 50-100 years and become WN/WL fanatics is silly. That is the kind of propaganda LSM pushes though.

[Cassidy]

Freedom> I don't think that Nigel or anyone else assume that they can conclusively interpret Google Trends results,

I find little disagreement with the logic of your argument with the notable exception of the above statement. In fact, Dr. Tomes' whole presentation pivots on the results of Google Trends.... and there are so many ridiculous fallacies in his presentation and conclusions that I do not know where to start other than where I did.... that is, if one wishes to use Google Trends as the barometer of interest or disinterest then its strongest proponent --- Dr. Tomes --- , in spite of dozens of articles, is way underwater.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Observations: I guess Google Trend is not Nigel Tomes friend either... after all those dissertations and online postings attacking Witness Lee we can't even see a spike as is seen with Titus Chu in 2006. Nothing, nada, nunca, nyet,.... no contra-trend showing a rise in interest... not even a flat line... not a whimper.... not a blip.. nor a sliver....not even a speck..... a total non-starter (using and comparing with Dr. Tomes own methodology of course).

Old Friend,

As interest in Lee wanes naturally interest in what anyone else has to say about him will wane, too. (Which doesn't bode well for us here, BTW. )

However, in the highly unlikely event that interest in Lee took off, interest in Tomes would, too. But it doesn't make sense that interest in Tomes would rise as people are leaving Lee like a 1950s-style suit. He must decrease so Tomes will decrease as well, until Tomes starts writing about something else, of course.

No one googles Tomes, they google Lee. So the decline in Tomes is actually reflective of the decline in Lee. Which makes Tomes' point.

[Cassidy]

Igzy>So the decline in Tomes is actually reflective of the decline in Lee. Which makes Tomes' point.

Hi Igzy,

Good to see you.

If Tomes had a decline trend, a flat trend, or a rising trend for that same period we could debate the correlation. In Tomes' case there is no trend to debate.... only a blank. Using Tome's methodology with his own Google Trend stats one could argue that there is not a decline in interest in Tome's material but no interest at all... were we to adopt the same credence and logic that Tomes uses against Witness Lee.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Igzy>So the decline in Tomes is actually reflective of the decline in Lee. Which makes Tomes' point.

Hi Igzy,

Good to see you.

If Tomes had a decline trend, a flat trend, or a rising trend for that same period we could debate the correlation. In Tomes' case there is no trend to debate.... only a blank. Using Tome's methodology with his own Google Trend stats one could argue that there is not a decline in interest in Tome's material but no interest at all... were we to adopt the same credence and logic that Tomes uses against Witness Lee.

Greetings Cassidy, I was pleasantly surprised to "see" you here again.

Your Google Trends spoof is cute. Mr Tomes might get a good chuckle out of it (that is, if he comes around here to see our discussions).

But as others have already pointed out, and as you well know, there is a well-established (albeit small) organization called the Lord's Recovery, aka the local churches, which actively recruits and promotes itself as an organization. As soon as you start seeing tables set up for "Tomes Christian Students" or "Tomes for the Age Campus Club" -- whether at Harvard or at Cal State-Fullerton -- then the comparison may hold some water.

[Cassidy]

Hi Ray,

Thanks, good to see you. There was some levity built in. If Nigel ever comes by I hope he takes it that way.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Igzy>So the decline in Tomes is actually reflective of the decline in Lee. Which makes Tomes' point.

Hi Igzy,

Good to see you.

If Tomes had a decline trend, a flat trend, or a rising trend for that same period we could debate the correlation. In Tomes' case there is no trend to debate.... only a blank. Using Tome's methodology with his own Google Trend stats one could argue that there is not a decline in interest in Tome's material but no interest at all... were we to adopt the same credence and logic that Tomes uses against Witness Lee.

Well, you have a point. But that doesn't help LSM's problem of declining interest in Lee at all, does it? I mean, saying "you're one too" might make you feel better, but does nothing more.

Lee was stuck in a time warp when he was at the peak of his ministry, and he only attracted people who were content to live in a time warp. Now he's a relic of the past. (It will happen to us all.) There might be occasional interest, but there is never going to be a huge revival based on the ministry of a long gone teacher who is so controversial. It's just not going to happen. It's never happened in history. And it would be foolish to wait for it. People want a fresh personality to follow, not a mysterious, shadowy figure from the past.

The only thing that could happen is if some dynamic teacher takes the best of Lee's stuff and breathes fresh life into it to produce something that is compelling and attractive to a current generation. But the LC movement has painted itself into a corner on that by restricting themselves to just parroting Lee. They are victims of their veneration of Lee. Justice, it seems.

Ironically, if you look at the community church movement, it does reflect some of Lee's basic teachings now--intimate relationship with God, experience of the Spirit, unity, generality, service, reward--not that it got them directly from Lee. But the Body works. It's retains the things that are healthy, and ignores the other stuff. God is quite capable of accomplishing what he wants without the micromanagenebt of a party of self-assumed leaders of the "recovery." And in fact they couldn't accomplish it in the first place. God doesn't work that way.

[Cassidy]

Igzy>Well, you have a point. But that doesn't help LSM's problem of declining interest in Lee at all, does it?

What decline? Post 28 from Unregistered shows a 4X increase over a 14 year period in membership in Europe. Even if those direct stats are ignored (there is no reason to ignore it but some people will anyway) it does not change my challenge to Tome's use of an internet search engine to draw his conclusion about interest/disinterest or membership in the local churches..... Google Trend is a single data point.

>Dr. Tomes has consistently sought to leverage the unpopularity of Witness Lee with the disaffected to generate interest in his own teachings and publications.

So you think Lee is only unpopular with "the disaffected?" What planet have you been living on? What rock did you just crawl out from underneath? The only reason why anybody knows anything about the man is from disaffected people letting the cat out of the bag. Oh and let's not forget all the Christian groups and ministries he has tried to sue the pants off of, they know all about Lee and Company too!

The Local Church has spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to promote the so call ministry of the age and they hardly make a blip on the radar. When you google Witness Lee most of the sites that pop up are PAID ADVERTISING from The Local Church/Living Stream Ministry or one of their front organizations which are no more than some website run from the computer of some Local Churcher sitting behind a desk over at the mother ship on La Palma in Anaheim!

I doubt Tomes gives a rip about anybody googling his name, and even if he does so what? He's not claiming to be the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth, is he?

[Cassidy]

Cliffhanger> So you think Lee is only unpopular with "the disaffected?"

Not at all.