Faith through experiential knowledge of God

[bearbear]

In John 17:3, Jesus says eternal life is to know God. The verb "know" (ginosko) implies knowing a person through direct experience and not just knowing facts about a person. Here's a commentary that goes into more detail:

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...eVerseID/26763

In the LCs it seems like there was a lot of emphasis on head knowledge about God and his word. After all, what separated us from other Christians was access to special knowledge about "recovered" truths concerning Christ and the Church. Implications behind stressing doctrines related to God's economy and "processed triune God" meant that it was very important to know the science behind how God worked, thereby subconsciously de-emphasizing the value of knowing God personally.

Yet while intellectual knowledge and Witness Lee's theology was put on a pedestal, to be fair, the LCs also encouraged everyone to pursue a personal relationship with God. I wonder if those of us who have held onto our faith despite difficult experiences in the LC did so not just because of head knowledge and knowing facts about Jesus but because of direct personal experiences in relationship with the Lord.

I've come to the realization that faith and "knowing God" are directly related. After all, can you ever doubt the existence of someone you know personally? There are many seemingly convincing voices in the world telling us that Jesus was not who he said he was and the God of the bible is not real. What keeps a person anchored in their faith especially when they've gone through incredible suffering inflicted by experiences in the LC?

At the same time, the LCs may have burdened many with so many meetings, conferences, trainings, HWMR/life study readings and serving that many may not have had the time or energy to spend personal time with Jesus. It also seems there was not much of a emphasis to encourage brothers and sisters to not only seek God in prayer, but to listen and hear his voice. A relationship has to have communication in both directions and not just one. Instead it seems many were pressured to listen to other voices such as Witness Lee's and to spam God with unidirectional "O Lord Jesus"es while awaiting the divine dispensing that was to follow, without realizing that God was indeed waiting by the door all along, waiting for us to invite him in to have conversation and fellowship.

Perhaps we can open this thread to testimonies of those who have experiences of answered prayers and personal relationship with Jesus during and post LC and how it has anchored their faith.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

[bearbear]

Unfortunately, my own spiritual life was not very strong during the years I grew up in the LC. I've had experiences of answered prayer, but they were never deep because I'm not sure if I ever fully gave my heart to Jesus and committed myself to him as a young person growing up. Most of my experiences of prayer in the LC was just myself talking to God, and I never took time to listen to his response, though I did notice when the prayers were answered.

I think God had to put in some extra work to keep my faith afloat all these years until I was ready for a deeper commitment.

So instead I'll share a recent experience I had in my prayer journal that was post-LC that falls in the bucket of "experiential knowledge" of God.

"The Lord convicted me during sleep that I never asked him what I thought about my work situation these past eight years. I’ve been stuck in a job at my career I’ve wanted out of for a long time, but had to stay at due to circumstances and obligations.

So I asked the Lord for an answer and as I quieted my mind I saw a blue sleeping mat (the kind that campers/backpackers use) unroll across a forest floor. This seemed bizarre and totally unrelated but I asked God for understanding. I was then reminded of the Israelite’s wilderness experience and how they had to camp from place to place.

I then realized that what I was going through these eight years was part of a wilderness experience God was bringing me through. I always blamed myself for making a wrong decision that caused me to end up in the mess I was in, but I believe God was saying my situation was in his hands and he was still sovereign. It was a tremendous relief to come to the realization that I no longer had to regret my own decisions in the past that led me into the mess I got into.

I’ll also be more aware of choosing to trust in the Lord rather than complain and grumble when encountering tough situations as the Israelites did.

I also realized if everything had worked out in my career as I wanted it too, I would have never been forced to turn to God and away from the idols I had been worshipping. God is using this rough season in my life to teach me how to trust in him."

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yet while intellectual knowledge and Witness Lee's theology was put on a pedestal, to be fair, the LCs also encouraged everyone to pursue a personal relationship with God. I wonder if those of us who have held onto our faith despite difficult experiences in the LC did so not just because of head knowledge and knowing facts about Jesus but because of direct personal experiences in relationship with the Lord.

This is very true. I have heard the brothers encourage the saints again and again to have a personal relationship with God. The catch, of course, is that everything is on their terms when it comes to a personal relationship with God. For example, if I don't read the HWMR, to the brothers that implies that I haven't experienced God, even though I am reading the Bible.

Originally Posted by bearbear

At the same time, the LCs may have burdened many with so many meetings, conferences, trainings, HWMR/life study readings and serving that many may not have had the time or energy to spend personal time with Jesus. It also seems there was not much of a emphasis to encourage brothers and sisters to not only seek God in prayer, but to listen and hear his voice. A relationship has to have communication in both directions and not just one. Instead it seems many were pressured to listen to other voices such as Witness Lee's and to spam God with unidirectional "O Lord Jesus"es while awaiting the divine dispensing that was to follow, without realizing that God was indeed waiting by the door all along, waiting for us to invite him in to have conversation and fellowship.

I believe they fear those who have a genuine relationship with God. I have heard the BB's talk about how there are no "spiritual giants" in the Lord's Recovery. It is clear that they're not really talking about spiritual giants. They don't want those who know the Lord outside of the context of the ministry. This is a dangerous thing for them. It is better to keep everyone really busy. I have been criticized before for spending to much time reading the Bible and even ministry books on my own. Apparently I was being individualist and not pursuing the Lord "corporately".

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is very true. I have heard the brothers encourage the saints again and again to have a personal relationship with God. The catch, of course, is that everything is on their terms when it comes to a personal relationship with God. For example, if I don't read the HWMR, to the brothers that implies that I haven't experienced God, even though I am reading the Bible.

That is a good point. I have the impression many in the LCs spend most of their personal time with the Lord in the mornings, which would involve reading the HWMR, which is basically reading Witness Lee's over-edited words.

I believe they fear those who have a genuine relationship with God. I have heard the BB's talk about how there are no "spiritual giants" in the Lord's Recovery. It is clear that they're not really talking about spiritual giants. They don't want those who know the Lord outside of the context of the ministry. This is a dangerous thing for them. It is better to keep everyone really busy. I have been criticized before for spending to much time reading the Bible and even ministry books on my own. Apparently I was being individualist and not pursuing the Lord "corporately".

It does seem like a spirit of control has a tight grip over the LCs. Perhaps many are being suffocated and being made unwitting slaves to this spirit of control thereby losing their freedom. I appreciate Jesus' testimony in the gospels because there is no record of him trying to manipulate or control anyone. Instead Jesus reigned through his living which in turn attracted everyone to follow him.

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

[OBW]

Can I ask a question (or a few questions) that might be somewhat at odds with the premise of this thread? (Besides this first question.)

What is the knowledge of God? And what is the experiential knowledge of God?

Is experience something that you gain from quiet time privately seeking independent, private revelation? Or is it the revelation when the words that you know are clearly from God in the scripture are suddenly illuminated in your life as you experience situations in which your choices suddenly are seen as choosing to bear the image of God, or the image of bearbear/Mike/Igzy/awareness/Ohio (your name goes here)?

"Your words were found and I did eat them." What words? The ones that we already have, not ones that you get from private revelation.

My assertion is that while time each day reflecting and meditating with the Word and prayer is important (and we can give it all kinds of spiritual names — or not), it is nothing if it does not meet the road, both literally and figuratively. That is what James said. And what it would seem that Witness Lee was determined not to have anyone measuring him by.

The experience is not in your quiet time. Knowing God is not just gaining better facts or internal knowledge. It is coming to the place where his will in real life is evident because we know the nature of the one we call Lord. We understand what his directive is in "this" situation. And we also understand that he may not have a specific will in terms of a lot of things. Which job to take. Who to marry. Whether to live in this neighborhood or that one. Whether to go to the baseball came or stay home and dig through the Word (actually, he might rather that some of us go to the baseball game). Not saying that he might not ever have a will on some of these things for some people in some cases. But everything is not "preordained" because if it were, we could not defend against it or avoid it. But we can.

Because of this, I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

[OBW]

Now, some moderation of my previous post.

I am not saying that God does not speak to some people to do things that he does not ask others to do. He clearly calls some to be missionaries, teachers/preachers of the word (other than the way in which we all are called), and other specific callings. But we should not all be looking for such callings. Yours may be to just live righteously as someone who does what he is gifted (naturally or spiritually) to do, like accounting, teaching, law, even flipping burgers.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

Can I ask a question (or a few questions) that might be somewhat at odds with the premise of this thread? (Besides this first question.)

What is the knowledge of God? And what is the experiential knowledge of God?

Is experience something that you gain from quiet time privately seeking independent, private revelation? Or is it the revelation when the words that you know are clearly from God in the scripture are suddenly illuminated in your life as you experience situations in which your choices suddenly are seen as choosing to bear the image of God, or the image of bearbear/Mike/Igzy/awareness/Ohio (your name goes here)?

"Your words were found and I did eat them." What words? The ones that we already have, not ones that you get from private revelation.

My assertion is that while time each day reflecting and meditating with the Word and prayer is important (and we can give it all kinds of spiritual names — or not), it is nothing if it does not meet the road, both literally and figuratively. That is what James said. And what it would seem that Witness Lee was determined not to have anyone measuring him by.

The experience is not in your quiet time. Knowing God is not just gaining better facts or internal knowledge. It is coming to the place where his will in real life is evident because we know the nature of the one we call Lord. We understand what his directive is in "this" situation. And we also understand that he may not have a specific will in terms of a lot of things. Which job to take. Who to marry. Whether to live in this neighborhood or that one. Whether to go to the baseball came or stay home and dig through the Word (actually, he might rather that some of us go to the baseball game). Not saying that he might not ever have a will on some of these things for some people in some cases. But everything is not "preordained" because if it were, we could not defend against it or avoid it. But we can.

Because of this, I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

I define experiential knowledge as experiencing fellowship and conversation with God which can also come about as we struggle to obey God and do his word.

For example Jesus commands us to forgive others. Doctrinally, I know I am commanded to forgive but it is very difficult for me in some extreme cases. I've had experiences where I told God I know you want me to forgive so and so but I just can't bring myself to, help me. God will then remind me of how much I've messed up in the past and how much he's forgiven me. I've also had experiences where I got revelation of what that person was going through so I could understand their perspective better. Through this conversation with the Holy Spirit, I was able to follow Jesus commands to forgive from my heart.

I never would have been able to do this without this kind of fellowship and conversation with the Lord. I could fist pump "O Lord Jesus" all I want and scream in my mind "forgive! Forgive!" and never truly be able to follow through with my heart. Or I could sit down with Jesus and have fellowship with him enabling me to do so. Jesus says in John 15 that apart from him we can do nothing.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

Because of this, I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

I agree with your assessment of head knowledge however I think it is important to also spend time with God and hear his voice.

The Pharisees believed they had a correct understanding of who God was, and they had the right to since they were more immersed in scripture than anyone else. However it's likely they never tried to hear from God if they were on the right path. In their overzealousness, they crucified their own Messiah.

However Jesus was always around ready to engage in conversation with them and even said he wanted to gather them under his wings as a mother hen does to his chicks. Instead the Pharisees never came to Jesus to have life but stubbornly went ahead in their own path. A person can be very sincere, but also sincerely wrong. Humans seems to be good at deceiving ourselves, so perhaps we still need to check in with God to see if we are in the center of his will, otherwise we could be missing many great opportunities and things he's planned for us and unknowingly opposing him.

Perhaps Witness Lee also fell into this myopia of his own little world during his ministry. It's hard to believe someone could be hearing from the Lord and spending time in fellowship with Jesus yet do the things he did continually that have been well documented. If Lee repented then that would be another matter, but he went on to write Fermentation of the Present Rebellion to defend and cement his position.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

What is the knowledge of God? And what is the experiential knowledge of God?.

Interesting question. I think of a picture I saw in the newspaper recently, of Urban Meyer and Nick Saban shaking hands in the middle of a college gridiron, after the football game. Slightly behind them, and caught between between their faces by the camera lens, was a state trooper. But the trooper's face was partly hidden behind one coach, and you could also see that his eyes were obscured by the down-tilted brim of his "smokey bear" hat. He was as close to Nick and Urban as anyone could get, but he wisely knew he wasn't the story. So he managed to be there but not there, so to speak.

I think of this because Jesus told the three disciples who were with Him on the mountain in the transfiguration event not to mention it to anyone. And He elsewhere told them "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing", and He also negatively mentioned the people who make a show of their supposed piety. We are sinners, here on earth: don't presume that just because you have seen or heard something real in Jesus Christ, that you are thereby someone of importance.

To me, the moral is don't trust yourself, while you are in the flesh. Don't make a show of your 'experiences', because if you do that proves they are probably vain. And don't trust a self-proclaimed 'world renowned expert' as Hank Hanegraaf called Gretchen Passantino in his introduction to her article. People who presume to be something will indeed get rewarded in this age, but don't trust that. We've seen too many shysters. Speaking of which, how many of my posts on this forum are vain puffery? Who knows -- perhaps a lot of it.

But at least in venues like this and to some extent in the actual assembly we may profitably examine the word together. To reason together in scripture; that is not vain to me but profitable. As long as nobody insists on elevation or primacy.

Originally Posted by OBW

I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

The speaking of God is essential, and what flows out in our living, especially that which endures beyond the first rush of excitement, is even more profitable. And hopefully our discussions with each other will reflect that. If something exists it should be evident. No one needs to promote their own experiences.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

I think of this because Jesus told the three disciples who were with Him on the mountain in the transfiguration event not to mention it to anyone.

Yet the record is there in gospels, suggesting that Peter, James and John later told others of their experience to confirm that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. I think Jesus wanted them to hold off because his time wasn't yet. However when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, he accepted the worship of the people which confirmed that he was the Messiah perhaps because then it was his time to do so as Daniel had prophesied.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

And He elsewhere told them "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing", and He also negatively mentioned the people who make a show of their supposed piety.

The context of this verse is in our personal giving to the Lord. However, in cases where God gives generously to us, restoring our brokenness and helping us to overcome our weaknesses, I do believe it is biblical to tell others of what God has done for us because it gives him glory and confirms that God cares and is willing to be involved in people's lives if only we would come to him. Jesus tells the man he healed and set free from demonic depression in Mark 5:19

"Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you."

Jesus also tells us that we're the light of the world and a city on a hill and to let our good deeds shine before men. It's interesting that there is a record of Barnabas in Acts selling his home and laying his offering at Apostles' feet (Acts 4:35-37). There is a public display of giving, but the spirit behind it was not to promote Barnabas, but to show how the glory of God was able to transform lives to selflessly give to one another.

Rahab's faith also began when she heard of stories of what God did for the Israelites, it was these testimonies that was the catalyst for her own salvation.

I didn't have much of a faith of my own growing up as a church kid, however I often enjoyed hearing testimonies from my grandmother and parents of stories of their faith. I think these stories helped me to hold on to my faith when I was tempted to consider if God was real throughout my youth.

I'm also interested in hearing stories of faith of those who have left the LCs. There are enough negative experiences/testimonies going around that I believe it would give many hope here that God is indeed living and working to restore lives post LC.

aron, I've much enjoyed your writings, but what has impacted me the most of your writings was your introductory testimony of how God transformed you from a rough life involved with drugs to someone who seriously pursues God today (http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=167). It's hard to believe that this was your background when I compare it to the person whose writings I read on this forum today.

As a church kid who was insulated from most of these things growing up, I'll never have such an interesting story to tell of a powerful story of transformation. But such powerful testimonies gives me hope and faith that God can transform and speak through the lives normal people including myself and others around me and not just self proclaimed spiritual giants such as Nee and Lee.

2 Cor 3:2-3
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is very true. I have heard the brothers encourage the saints again and again to have a personal relationship with God. The catch, of course, is that everything is on their terms when it comes to a personal relationship with God. For example, if I don't read the HWMR, to the brothers that implies that I haven't experienced God, even though I am reading the Bible.

I believe they fear those who have a genuine relationship with God. I have heard the BB's talk about how there are no "spiritual giants" in the Lord's Recovery. It is clear that they're not really talking about spiritual giants. They don't want those who know the Lord outside of the context of the ministry. This is a dangerous thing for them. It is better to keep everyone really busy. I have been criticized before for spending to much time reading the Bible and even ministry books on my own. Apparently I was being individualist and not pursuing the Lord "corporately".

bb & Freedom,

You guys that grew up in the local church prove that what I saw happening back in the late 1970s, became the only results possible, when Witness Lee, and the elders, began to declare that Witness Lee was the oracle/apostle/authority on the earth : a movement that went from Spirit led, to a movement that's man/men led.

Now I admit that it was probably Lee led from the beginning. And that it was my idealism's that gave me the impression that the local church was Spirit led ; my idealism's and that of the brothers and sisters that were caught up in the same or similar idealism's.

I now conclude that being idealistic makes us see things that aren't there. And since they aren't there, but are mere illusions, we're eventually going to be disappointed by them.

I remember well how difficult is was coming out of the local church. I don't think I could possibly imagine what it would be like coming out after growing up in the local church (nor like Lisbon and Ohio, that were in 40 and 30 yrs, respectively.)

So I stand with you brothers, all of you, on your journey and struggle to work your way out of the local church. Just remember that what you find after leaving will prolly be like a rebound relationship: temporary. And that coming out of the local church is like the growing of a new life; and that that new growth is unpredictable. So decide and commit carefully, and be careful with idealism's. And good luck. I stand with you, in heart, mind, and spirit.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

bb & Freedom,

You guys that grew up in the local church prove that what I saw happening back in the late 1970s, became the only results possible, when Witness Lee, and the elders, began to declare that Witness Lee was the oracle/apostle/authority on the earth : a movement that went from Spirit led, to a movement that's man/men led.

Now I admit that it was probably Lee led from the beginning. And that it was my idealism's that gave me the impression that the local church was Spirit led ; my idealism's and that of the brothers and sisters that were caught up in the same or similar idealism's.

I now conclude that being idealistic makes us see things that aren't there. And since they aren't there, but are mere illusions, we're eventually going to be disappointed by them.

I remember well how difficult is was coming out of the local church. I don't think I could possibly imagine what it would be like coming out after growing up in the local church (nor like Lisbon and Ohio, that were in 40 and 30 yrs, respectively.)

So I stand with you brothers, all of you, on your journey and struggle to work your way out of the local church. Just remember that what you find after leaving will prolly be like a rebound relationship: temporary. And that coming out of the local church is like the growing of a new life; and that that new growth is unpredictable. So decide and commit carefully, and be careful with idealism's. And good luck. I stand with you, in heart, mind, and spirit.

I get the sense that you place a lot of the blame on yourself and your idealism which led to following Witness Lee which in turn led to many negative experiences in life. I feel that the Lord wants to tell you that you shouldn't blame yourself, as he also told me when he exposed to me how much I dwelt on regrets and self blame for foolish decisions made in the past, also stemming from idealism.

Children are by nature trusting and idealistic and Jesus implies that the kingdom of heaven is filled with children, so Jesus can't be against these qualities. Unfortunately this nature allows children to be easily taken advantage of and misled, and concerning the people who do such things to children, Jesus says, it would be better for them not to live but to commit suicide! (Matthew 18:6)

Perhaps idealism can lead us either to doom or to life. God also likens us to sheep and sheep are born with the need to follow something, perhaps idealistically so. Maybe the problem lies in who we were actually following and not the mechanism God gave us to do so. Witness Lee was advertising Jesus but he was really selling us himself and at best a leavened version of the real thing.

If Witness Lee was a false shepherd, then perhaps God struck him down in our hearts by exposing him for who he was. Now that us sheep have been scattered perhaps we are all in the process of trying to hear the voice of the true Shepherd so that we can come to him to have life.

In Ezekiel 34 God seems to place the blame on false shepherds rather than faulting sheep for their idealism in following or trusting the wrong thing. On the other hand Jesus does remind us to be wise and to look out for wolves in sheep's clothing so that we are not deceived.

Ezekiel 34

... What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. Shouldn’t shepherds feed their sheep? 3 You drink the milk, wear the wool, and butcher the best animals, but you let your flocks starve. 4 You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and cruelty. 5 So my sheep have been scattered without a shepherd, and they are easy prey for any wild animal. 6 They have wandered through all the mountains and all the hills, across the face of the earth, yet no one has gone to search for them.

7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, you abandoned my flock and left them to be attacked by every wild animal. And though you were my shepherds, you didn’t search for my sheep when they were lost. You took care of yourselves and left the sheep to starve. 9 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I now consider these shepherds my enemies, and I will hold them responsible for what has happened to my flock. I will take away their right to feed the flock, and I will stop them from feeding themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths; the sheep will no longer be their prey.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In John 17:3, Jesus says eternal life is to know God. The verb "know" (ginosko) implies knowing a person through direct experience and not just knowing facts about a person. Here's a commentary that goes into more detail:

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...eVerseID/26763

In the LCs it seems like there was a lot of emphasis on head knowledge about God and his word. After all, what separated us from other Christians was access to special knowledge about "recovered" truths concerning Christ and the Church. Implications behind stressing doctrines related to God's economy and "processed triune God" meant that it was very important to know the science behind how God worked, thereby subconsciously de-emphasizing the value of knowing God personally.

Yet while intellectual knowledge and Witness Lee's theology was put on a pedestal, to be fair, the LCs also encouraged everyone to pursue a personal relationship with God. I wonder if those of us who have held onto our faith despite difficult experiences in the LC did so not just because of head knowledge and knowing facts about Jesus but because of direct personal experiences in relationship with the Lord.

I've come to the realization that faith and "knowing God" are directly related. After all, can you ever doubt the existence of someone you know personally? There are many seemingly convincing voices in the world telling us that Jesus was not who he said he was and the God of the bible is not real. What keeps a person anchored in their faith especially when they've gone through incredible suffering inflicted by experiences in the LC?

At the same time, the LCs may have burdened many with so many meetings, conferences, trainings, HWMR/life study readings and serving that many may not have had the time or energy to spend personal time with Jesus. It also seems there was not much of a emphasis to encourage brothers and sisters to not only seek God in prayer, but to listen and hear his voice. A relationship has to have communication in both directions and not just one. Instead it seems many were pressured to listen to other voices such as Witness Lee's and to spam God with unidirectional "O Lord Jesus"es while awaiting the divine dispensing that was to follow, without realizing that God was indeed waiting by the door all along, waiting for us to invite him in to have conversation and fellowship.

Perhaps we can open this thread to testimonies of those who have experiences of answered prayers and personal relationship with Jesus during and post LC and how it has anchored their faith.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

You have mischaracterized Witness Lee's ministry. He spent message after message focusing on the experience of God rather than knowledge about God. Whatever the problems are with his ministry neglecting the expereince of God isn't one of them.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

You have mischaracterized Witness Lee's ministry. He spent message after message focusing on the experience of God rather than knowledge about God. Whatever the problems are with his ministry neglecting the expereince of God isn't one of them.

Reflecting back I get the impression that there was a culture of obsession on many esoteric doctrines and uncovering special revelation in the bible. However this does not mean experience of the Lord was ignored, as I stated in my first post, we were often encouraged to pursue a relationship with Jesus which many may have done so and led them to be anchored in their faith in a real and living God.

However just because Lee encouraged us to "experience the Lord" and follow His leading doesn't mean it was put into practice by the ministry. I see enormous pressure within the movement to follow men rather than the Holy Spirit. Also I feel many were experiencing the Lord via the filter of Lee's teachings and doctrines and not following Jesus' commandments to help the poor, bless our enemies and to forgive others. Following Jesus' commands are difficult to do without a personal relationship with Jesus in my experience, however following Witness Lee is easy as long as you suppress all forms of critical thinking.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Reflecting back I get the impression that there was a culture of obsession on many esoteric doctrines and uncovering special revelation in the bible. However this does not mean experience of the Lord was ignored, as I stated in my first post, we were often encouraged to pursue a relationship with Jesus which many may have done so and led them to be anchored in their faith in a real and living God.

Right. It wasn't ignored.

However just because Lee encouraged us to "experience the Lord" and follow His leading doesn't mean it was put into practice by the ministry. I see enormous pressure within the movement to follow men rather than the Holy Spirit. Also I feel many were experiencing the Lord via the filter of Lee's teachings and doctrines and not following Jesus' commandments to help the poor, bless our enemies and to forgive others. Following Jesus' commands are difficult to do without a personal relationship with Jesus in my experience, however following Witness Lee is easy as long as you suppress all forms of critical thinking.

It doesn't mean that it wasn't put into practice either or that it was put into practice sometimes and not others. People are always going to be experiencing the Lord through someone's filter be it only their own. If a person were actually following the Lord they wouldn't even need to know about his written commandments since the Lord would lead them to fulfill them any way. But, maybe that's not the way it really works. Maybe following the Lord means trying to follow his written commandments and using one's own judgment to figure out how to do that. Now that isn't what Lee taught, according to my understanding. It would require critical thinking and creativity and passion. The Leecal Churchers had plenty of passion, but critical thinking was verboten and creativity was stifled.