Living with an LC spouse...

[ZoeGrace]

Hello. I have a somewhat different tale of involvement with the LC. Quick background: raised catholic; became a born again Christian; married 13 years, both of us having been divorced; was in a denomination, coincidently where I met my husband; after two years of marriage, my husband decided to go back to where he spent the majority of his Christian life, the LC (he was in Anaheim with Witness Lee). At first, I attended meetings, but began to question what I was hearing and/or reading. Three major issues occurred...huge lawsuits for millions of dollars, quarantine and ex-communication, and then the one publication rule. I felt like I was going backwards. Not to mention all the “fallen” Christianity and other such comments directed at any other Christians not in the LC. I am not saying that those I have met in the LC are bad people...they are very sincere. I stopped attending meetings seven years ago. It really makes my heart hurt that the LC have such disdain for the other children of God.

In my estimation, and I am no expert theologian, the LC has been entirely hypocritical about Christianity and denominations while doing exactly the same things. My husband will not explain anything. He quotes the same verses over and over and repeats the LC teachings, not really answering. He hates to be questioned. He wants me to be as enthusiastic and involved as he is with the LC. He really is a good man, and I feel horrible and guilty! It is a very small group of families (six or seven) where we live and I am the only spouse who does not attend all the functions and socializing. The other wives have talked to me about not supporting my husband. I know they care for him as a brother. I have spoken to a couple of pastors, but they really do not understand as they believe the LC is no different than any other denomination and I should attend with my husband.

We have had some fairly "heated" discussions in the last few years. Some have been hurtful...as in, from him, "You are not even a Christian" to "You are in apostasy." Mine have been along the lines of...you are CRAZY, you are in a cult, and calling Witness Lee a pope...not my finer moments! (The pope comment was after he told me Witness Lee was the oracle of the age!)

Any words of wisdom? I don't want this to destroy our marriage, but it is very lonely outside of the LC when that is considered THE only social life! It is hard to have friends when they are looked upon as a recruit! And, if they are not interested, they are considered foolish and in “Babylon.”

I find your website very informative. Many of the things I question are being discussed. It's hard to be a fairly “new” Christian (30 years catholic) and try to muddle through all of this! Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

was in a denomination, coincidently where I met my husband; after two years of marriage, my husband decided to go back to where he spent the majority of his Christian life, the LC

Two questions come to mind: first why did your husband leave the LC and go meet in a denomination, and second why did he go back to the LC.

I would guess that he originally left because he was dissatisfied, and he went back because he was convinced that there was no place else to go. And I bet he's still the same inside: dissatisfied in the LC but convinced there is nothing else for him. He has a deep and powerful program in his mind, to think that everything else outside the LC is "death". So he can be dissatisfied in the LC and live with it, but when he was in the denomination became dissatisfied then suddenly the siren call of the LC began to sound within him. The "deep program" was activated.

It is a programming issue. The more you understand the thought processes of those around you, you will have sympathy and not just think "they are wrong", which may indeed be the case. Because we are all wrong. You are wrong, I am wrong, your husband is wrong, etc. But God is not wrong -- God is wise and soveriegn, and God put you there. My advice is to find God in your situation then God can easily move. Nothing stops God. If you can find patience and strength and abide in God's will, certainly He can take care of your husband's situation vis-a-vis the LC. God can do anything. If you can understand and sympathize with those around you, who are quite different from you and different from what you want to be, then God will have a way. Never forget how powerful God is! If you say, "God, You are all powerful. You are so powerful that I can rest here, peacefully, in this seemingly untenable situation." Then God will be happy. Your job is to just rest in the beloved. This is true faith.

I would say this to my husband: "Honey, sorry for my bad mood of late. I have been quarrelsome and judgmental. I want to be positive, and a good companion." Never mind that the LCs are quarrelsome and judgmental, and "negative" towards all others. Just take care of yourself. Just tell them, "Sorry to be negative". You don't have to agree. Just be peaceful, positive, empathetic, understanding, an cheerful. God can do this! Then you will see God move. If they are also negative and judgmental that is their problem not yours. God is soveriegn, and put you in this position, and now wants to know what you will do. If your answer is "I will do nothing" then God's answer will be "I will do everything." Finding God is the unique human experience. Find Him now. Your situation means nothing to God. Just find Him and He will re-arrange everything. Don't touch your situation. Let God touch it.

Let me put this another way: if you are dissatisfied, then God is also dissatisfied. God wants something. But are you willing to be patient? Are you willing to believe in God's soveriegnty in this situation? God is very patient with us! If we can in some small way respond with patience toward God then this is a great victory. Satan wants you to move, but God wants you to be restful. Remember what Jesus said on the cross: It is finished.

[awareness]

ZoeGrace I'm so sad for you. My heart, mind, and prayers go out to you. Sorry I don't have any answers. If you love each other you'll work it out. If not you're destined to be unhappy. Maybe a trial separation is in order.

[aron]

Jesus said, "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man (or woman), it flies about in waterless places seeking rest." It occurred to me that seeking rest is actually a universal phenomenon. We all seek rest. Whether we are obedient or disobedient, clean or unclean, holy or evil, we seek rest. The question is: are we going to enter into HIS rest or are we going to continue to try and find our own rest, apart from Him?

I daresay you can find rest in your situation. God is that good, and wise, and powerful. Don't be tricked into thinking that rest can only be found in a different situation. You will never find rest that way. You will run and run and run. Don't look at all the problems around you. Just repent, and turn, and obey in your present reality. God will flood your reality with Himself. He is that powerful.

Your spouse left the LCs, seeking rest, and couldn't find it, and now is back in, and I daresay he still can't find rest. But he consoles himself by saying that this is the best he can do, here on this earth.... he's conditioned to think that the LC is "God's best", even if a little voice is nagging him. So he just keeps repeating the LC mantra of the week (HWFMR etc) and hopes the little voice will go away.

If you can find rest, and peace, and joy, and love, and light in your situation that will be the strongest testimony not only to him and the families you touch, but to all creation. God put you there, simply to testify of the rest found in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Just some thoughts from a pilgrim along the way.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

At first, I attended meetings, but began to question what I was hearing and/or reading. Three major issues occurred...huge lawsuits for millions of dollars, quarantine and ex-communication, and then the one publication rule. I felt like I was going backwards. Not to mention all the “fallen” Christianity and other such comments directed at any other Christians not in the LC.

In my estimation, and I am no expert theologian, the LC has been entirely hypocritical about Christianity and denominations while doing exactly the same things.
I have spoken to a couple of pastors, but they really do not understand as they believe the LC is no different than any other denomination and I should attend with my husband.

Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

I have put into bold what my issues had been. It's one thing to legitimately quarantine someone based on scripture. It's when you begin quarantine based on being politically incorrect, that's what I have issue with.
Whether in Washington or visiting in California, I have been in meetings in each state where there are comments directed at Christians not meeting in the local churches. Basically the assumption if you're Christian not meeting in the local churches, you're meeting in division (denominations).

I would agree with the pastors. The local churches is no different than any other denomination. For example many LC's use LSM publications while Baptists use Lifeway publications.

It's one thing to know teachings LSM publishes about. If teachings were practiced, where would the issues lie? However the practices do not match the teachings. It's easy for CRI to publish "We were Wrong" when the sole focus was on the teachings, and not the practices. It's through these practices that has resulted in divisions, strife, and turmoils.

[bearbear]

Hi ZoeGrace,

It sounds like your husband has built up Witness Lee to be a false idol. Perhaps one solution is to break this idol through fasting and prayer and to ask God to create an opening in his heart to hear what you have to say. Along with this could be to expose the idol for what it is (Eph 5:11). This could require wisdom and may have to be done as gently as possible. Do as the Lord leads you, but in any case...

Here's a youtube video of a conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit you could show your husband.

Sal Benoit, an elder in the church in Boston, loaned $100k to fund DayStar, a company Witness Lee founded to produce and sell RVs. Because of Benoit's enormous investment, Witness Lee takes the liberty to describe a scheme that involved defrauding saints via a money laundering operation which involved juggling money between OCS, Living Stream Ministry (501c tax-exempt non-profit), DayStar and Phosphorus. When DayStar went bankrupt after the 1970s Iranian Oil Crisis, Witness Lee protected himself from losses, while forcing church members, many who took out huge loans or gave up their life savings, to shoulder the burden.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHJ...ature=youtu.be

Transcript:
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf

PDF of Money Laundering Scheme:
http://www.geocities.jp/lee_localchu...chInBoston.pdf

Revelation 2:2
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

Hello. I have a somewhat different tale of involvement with the LC. Quick background: raised catholic; became a born again Christian; married 13 years, both of us having been divorced; was in a denomination, coincidently where I met my husband; after two years of marriage, my husband decided to go back to where he spent the majority of his Christian life, the LC (he was in Anaheim with Witness Lee). At first, I attended meetings, but began to question what I was hearing and/or reading. Three major issues occurred...huge lawsuits for millions of dollars, quarantine and ex-communication, and then the one publication rule. I felt like I was going backwards. Not to mention all the “fallen” Christianity and other such comments directed at any other Christians not in the LC. I am not saying that those I have met in the LC are bad people...they are very sincere. I stopped attending meetings seven years ago. It really makes my heart hurt that the LC have such disdain for the other children of God.

In my estimation, and I am no expert theologian, the LC has been entirely hypocritical about Christianity and denominations while doing exactly the same things. My husband will not explain anything. He quotes the same verses over and over and repeats the LC teachings, not really answering. He hates to be questioned. He wants me to be as enthusiastic and involved as he is with the LC. He really is a good man, and I feel horrible and guilty! It is a very small group of families (six or seven) where we live and I am the only spouse who does not attend all the functions and socializing. The other wives have talked to me about not supporting my husband. I know they care for him as a brother. I have spoken to a couple of pastors, but they really do not understand as they believe the LC is no different than any other denomination and I should attend with my husband.

We have had some fairly "heated" discussions in the last few years. Some have been hurtful...as in, from him, "You are not even a Christian" to "You are in apostasy." Mine have been along the lines of...you are CRAZY, you are in a cult, and calling Witness Lee a pope...not my finer moments! (The pope comment was after he told me Witness Lee was the oracle of the age!)

Any words of wisdom? I don't want this to destroy our marriage, but it is very lonely outside of the LC when that is considered THE only social life! It is hard to have friends when they are looked upon as a recruit! And, if they are not interested, they are considered foolish and in “Babylon.”

I find your website very informative. Many of the things I question are being discussed. It's hard to be a fairly “new” Christian (30 years catholic) and try to muddle through all of this! Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

Do you have children? If not, consider yourself free to follow your heart. Stay married or leave it which ever you choose. Why would God want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

Do you have children? If not, consider yourself free to follow your heart. Stay married or leave it which ever you choose. Why would God want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable?

God's ministry includes healing and reconciliation. We were once God's enemy but he reconciled us to himself through the death of Jesus (Rom 5:10). The Lord is our good shepherd who will leave the 99 behind to seek the one he is lost. God never gives up on repairing a broken relationship, so we shouldn't give up on His power to do so either.

Since God views the marriage covenant as sacred, we should trust that He will be able to repair it.

This is assuming the first divorces were due to marital unfaithfulness or other exceptional circumstances. If not, then it also depends on if one interprets the act of re-marriage (in the case of illegitimate divorce) as a one time commitment of adultery, or continuous state of of adultery.

http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God's ministry includes healing and reconciliation. We were once God's enemy but he reconciled us to himself through the death of Jesus (Rom 5:10). The Lord is our good shepherd who will leave the 99 behind to seek the one he is lost. God never gives up on repairing a broken relationship, so we shouldn't give up on His power to do so either. Since God views the marriage covenant as sacred, we should trust that He will be able to repair it. This is assuming the first divorces were due to marital unfaithfulness or other exceptional circumstances

Whether or not any of that applies to ZoeGrace, and if so, how, only she can figure out. In any case, if we are free beings, then she is free to choose. What I asked is why God would want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable. Nothing you have said answers that question. If God is supernatural as you have asserted elsewhere, then I suppose he could instantly fix any unhappy marriage if he wished or better yet prevent any marriage from becoming unhappy. But, that is manifestly not the case in the real world including the Christian world. So, you may need to put on your best theodicy shoes to outrun this little problem of evil, bearbear.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

Whether or not any of that applies to ZoeGrace, and if so, how, only she can figure out. In any case, if we are free beings, then she is free to choose. What I asked is why God would want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable. Nothing you have said answers that question. If God is supernatural as you have asserted elsewhere, then I suppose he could instantly fix any unhappy marriage if he wished or better yet prevent any marriage from becoming unhappy. But, that is manifestly not the case in the real world including the Christian world. So, you may need to put on your best theodicy shoes to outrun this little problem of evil, bearbear.

There's no promise in scripture that everyone's marriage will be smooth. Instead scripture says that our faith will be tested by suffering and we should expect it. We should rejoice in our suffering for the sake of righteousness because it makes us partners with Christ in his suffering (1 Peter 4:13). Unjustified divorce is a shortcut out of suffering and would rob us of an opportunity to experience God's grace and grow in relationship with Jesus.

Romans 5:3-5
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

http://www.verserain.com/verseset/sh...7ab049dd9908ca

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Unjustified divorce is a shortcut out of suffering and would rob us of an opportunity to experience God's grace and grow in relationship with Jesus.

I'm not suggesting that people jump out of marriage because they are suffering. I'm just noting what everybody knows already: that they are free to do so. If people choose to stay because they care for their partner even though they themselves are suffering, well then, that's their choice. I believe in a God of compassion, so I wouldn't stay for God's sake because I don't think God would want me to.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

There's no promise in scripture that everyone's marriage will be smooth. Instead scripture says that our faith will be tested by suffering and we should expect it. We should rejoice in our suffering for the sake of righteousness because it makes us partners with Christ in his suffering (1 Peter 4:13). Unjustified divorce is a shortcut out of suffering and would rob us of an opportunity to experience God's grace and grow in relationship with Jesus.

bearbear, I don't know how this strikes ZoeGrace, but your idealism in this matter strikes me as so distasteful.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

What I asked is why God would want people to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable. .

You know, there's a funny story in the NT. A woman was miserable, lonely. So she got married. Still miserable. So she got divorced. Still miserable. So she got married. Still miserable.

Finally when Jesus met her she was on her seventh companion.

Misery is an inside job. It doesn't go away with a change of scenery. Believe me, I know; if relocation would fix my problems I would have made it free. I ran for years.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

You know, there's a funny story in the NT. A woman was miserable, lonely. So she got married. Still miserable. So she got divorced. Still miserable. So she got married. Still miserable.

Finally when Jesus met her she was on her seventh companion.

Misery is an inside job. It doesn't go away with a change of scenery. Believe me, I know; if relocation would fix my problems I would have made it free. I ran for years.

There's a lot of truth to that aron.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God's ministry includes healing and reconciliation. We were once God's enemy but he reconciled us to himself through the death of Jesus (Rom 5:10). The Lord is our good shepherd who will leave the 99 behind to seek the one he is lost. God never gives up on repairing a broken relationship, so we shouldn't give up on His power to do so either.

Since God views the marriage covenant as sacred, we should trust that He will be able to repair it.

This is assuming the first divorces were due to marital unfaithfulness or other exceptional circumstances. If not, then it also depends on if one interprets the act of re-marriage (in the case of illegitimate divorce) as a one time commitment of adultery, or continuous state of of adultery.

http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html

Goodness bearbear, why don't you just lay the law down on the girl.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness bearbear, why don't just lay the law down on the girl.

My apologies for going to far with the technicalities. Yet when I think about it, God would probably view the second marriage as sacred despite any conditions because it is still a covenant after all. This is probably above my pay grade and may be suited for someone with pastoral training on this subject. Obviously there are probably many differing views out there and the best advice could be to ask God for an answer. I think the LCs have a pretty conservative view regarding this matter (as long as the couple are both for the ministry from what it seems) so I assumed it was probable zoegrace and her husband's union has the church's blessing and can be upheld by even conservative views of scripture which also makes room for desertion by an unbeliever. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[aron]

Delete copy

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

Do you have children? If not, consider yourself free

Neither Jesus nor Paul gave this kind of advice. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't feel so free myself. If the word "sacred" has any practical meaning at all in this world, then probably the marriage covenant is sacred.

But obviously many Christians disagree today. In the LCs, if one's spouse is attached to a different denomination (and "the local church" is a name just like any other) it's probably grounds for divorce. You know, "not being faithful to the ministry". That's probably enough, in their eyes.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

Neither Jesus nor Paul gave this kind of advice. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't feel so free myself. If the word "sacred" has any practical meaning at all in this world, then probably the marriage covenant is sacred.

But obviously many Christians disagree today. In the LCs, if one's spouse is attached to a different denomination (and "the local church" is a name just like any other) it's probably grounds for divorce. You know, "not being faithful to the ministry". That's probably enough, in their eyes.

You and ZoeGrace are free to follow their advice instead mine. A number of people do with mixed results as far as I can tell. Assuming she owns a Bible, she already had access to their advice before she asked the question here.

I live in a "no-fault" divorce state, so "grounds" is little more than a formality in most cases. Marriage was quite a bit different in New Testament times. Women were often treated as chattel. To leave a marriage might not have been conducive to survival given the first century social welfare system. Jesus and Paul may have been speaking from compassion.

The same isn't necessarily true today in our society when marriage may have more to do with its impact on one's tax bracket. Anyway, no one has answered my "why" question. If it is because marriage is "sacred" then I would ask why is it sacred and what exactly that means particularly in those situations where the married couple is causing each other to suffer.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Neither Jesus nor Paul gave this kind of advice. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't feel so free myself. If the word "sacred" has any practical meaning at all in this world, then probably the marriage covenant is sacred.

But obviously many Christians disagree today. In the LCs, if one's spouse is attached to a different denomination (and "the local church" is a name just like any other) it's probably grounds for divorce. You know, "not being faithful to the ministry". That's probably enough, in their eyes.

I know of a brother, from Santa Cruz days, and after leaving the LC, whose wife was forced to divorce her husband, by the elders, because he expressed that he was no longer devoted to Lee and his ministry. They had children too, and he loved his wife dearly. It crushed him. So even the local church don't hold to legalism when it comes to divorce.

[Lisbon]

I want to post a strong amen to Igzy's post above on the importance of prayer.

I live in a family of four LCs whom I am very close to. I believe by the mercy of The Lord I have had no arguments these two years. I continually get the check from The Lord to essentially say nothing. I agree heartily with Igzy that we are in a spiritual battle and The Lord has to be the victor. More and more I love that scripture,"unless The Lord build the house, unless The Lord keep the city, they labor in vain."

This just has to be our experience.

Lisbon

It appears that I and ZoeGrace have much in common. I, too, am married to an LCer who feels absolutely driven to remain in the LC, regardless of how much light and life he finds elsewhere. I was raised in the Bible church and had strong, clear Bible teaching from an early age on. This was not true of my husband. While he attended a mainline denomination for many years, he never heard the gospel until attending the LC for the first time. His attachment, therefore, is very strong since they provided the information he needed to gain salvation by calling on the Lord and also provided the first real teaching he had ever had in the Bible. I personally believe the number of these kind of persons in the LC is a high one. Due to having come from a church that taught little or having no church background at all, the LC has become, almost literally, their "mother" and they have difficulty abandoning her no matter what else they may "see" as time progresses.

How did I choose to deal with this? Well, at first, with his kind understanding and permission (although he frequently shared his feelings with great "enthusiasm" about the superiority of the LC), I began attending a Bible church again. While I truly enjoyed my time there, I felt bothered about my decision. This "bothering" or "brooding" went on in my heart for some years. Being rebellious, I chose to ignore it with arguments about differences in doctrine or, yes, even the unfavorable things I had heard about Daystar, etc. This did not fix the "problem" I felt inside. Something was not right and I knew it. I began to think about what the meaning of the word "submission" was and knew that I was not in alignment with it. If our husbands are truly to be the spiritual leaders in our home (and I believe the Bible indicates they are), we would, then, need to follow that leadership. Oh, how I fought this! Slowly, my conviction grew about following my husband's leadership. These were, after all, dear people who truly loved the Lord Jesus. Were their doctrines and teachings different? Yes, some. But did they love the Lord Jesus and earnestly seek to follow Him to the extent that they knew how? Most definitely! I could find no clause in Scripture exempting me from following my husband's leadership--especially since these were TRUE BELIEVERS worshiping the same Lord I professed to worship. I began to consider how Sarah had persuaded Abraham to take Hagar to produce a son and the results of that insertion of HER will into that situation. I reconsidered how Rebekah schemed for Jacob's sake (inserting HER will and preference) and the sad outcome of never seeing him alive again. And I began to seriously think about what the outcome would be if I continued to follow my own, separate path. Now, mind you, my husband had openly and purposely given me verbal permission to go to where I was happy. It was never HE that caused me to feel this way. After years of inwardly fighting against this feeling but growing more and more convicted that I should follow my husband's leadership, I decided to go to the LC and remain. Instantly the burden of conviction was lifted. There were, however, trials to come as I had to constantly deal with teachings that were "off" to me and to listen to constant criticism leveled against other denominations--which, at the least, are a waste of breath, and, at the most, the ugly sin of judging. Then I made the astonishing discovery that while they were judging others, I was guilty of judging them simultaneously! We are not given special exemption to judge others because they judge us or those we like! (It took me years to catch on to this--and I was a so-called Bible student!) So, I have had to work on NOT judging them for judging others, lest I fall into the exact same sin!

Please understand that it is NOT my intention to tell you what to do--only to share what has happened to me as I took these things to the Lord. LCers are true believers. That is an inescapable truth. It is for this reason that I CAN worship with them, differences in doctrine and terminology aside. I have looked for those that I can minister to inside and tried to pour myself out on them. I have tried to make myself useful and serve on those committees (service groups) that I am asked to work in. I have made good friends in the LC that I have come to love. My husband's God was always my God, but now his people have become my people. I know what I believe inside about various doctrines and cannot be persuaded differently, but, as I am a guest in their "house", I keep my mouth shut about those and just enjoy talking about Jesus with them--an inexhaustible and beautiful topic and person!

Oh--and what about all that "stuff" that happened with WL, Daystar, and whatever? Well, I have a friend who is Catholic and she says that all the stuff about all those evil popes and priests does not change the fact that she is there to worship Christ. I have Baptist friends whose churches have had to depose preachers for affairs, stealing from the offerings, or just plain goofing off. They stay in those churches and worship, regardless. They just become wiser about what to do and what not to do. We all have to be vigilant and make the decision NOT to be involved in those things not of Christ. I was never a part of those things. My husband was not involved. No one I know in the LC that we attend was ever a part of that. Are there some who were involved who are still in leadership positions? Perhaps, but our lives do not touch theirs as far as I can tell (outside of the trainings and materials we receive--and I have already shared that I still have differences with the teachings). Is it possible that they are doing things that we would not approve of with our tithes and offerings? We do not know of anything that would give us pause and God knows that we are giving to Him. Those who misuse His funds will have to answer to Him.

I am now at peace with God about where I worship. I no longer have the dread of inserting my will into my husband's efforts to lead and facing the possible negative outcomes. I still speak to him about those things that bother me and he listens patiently. He still loves the LC. I love him and want him to be happy. And I want to be with him where he is happy--as long as Christ is our focus and center.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am now at peace with God about where I worship. I no longer have the dread of inserting my will into my husband's efforts to lead and facing the possible negative outcomes. I still speak to him about those things that bother me and he listens patiently. He still loves the LC. I love him and want him to be happy. And I want to be with him where he is happy--as long as Christ is our focus and center.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.

A great testimony; thanks for logging on. It cannot be overstressed that when you perceive others behaving in a sectarian and divisive way, there is NO invitation from God waiting for you to respond in kind. The Christian way is always magnanimity.

If the shoe was on the other foot, however... how many LC wives deal with husbands who don't meet there with them, and do not submit to God's sovereign arrangement? Just some food for thought.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It appears that I and ZoeGrace have much in common. I, too, am married to an LCer who feels absolutely driven to remain in the LC, regardless of how much light and life he finds elsewhere.

Two further comments (sorry, I am chatty). First regarding the RCC, it could be argued that Luther and Erasmus showed two alternate choices. Both perceived the failures, some deep and profound, which swirled around them. But Erasmus stayed. Today if you read Erasmus, you may be surprised by the depth of his writings. Luther, while he did pick up on "Justification by faith", is much more shallow. (This is my personal opinions of course, but it's the opinion of one raised Protestant fundamentalist who was trained to despise and overlook everything Catholic).

Secondly is your comment that these are true believers with the same Lord Jesus. Yes and no. We all have the common faith, yes. But I have found by looking at the text (see e.g. my thread on the Psalms) that Witness Lee taught them that there was "no Jesus" there. So that was disappointing to me. Am I a better person than any of them? Of course not! But if you talk about Jesus with them it may be according to their doctrines and not according to the actual text of scripture. Just something to keep in mind.

As an illustration, my friend tells me a story about someone he met once. The guy kept going on and on about how he loved Jesus. "I love Jesus!" He kept saying over and over. The guy took him home and there on the wall was a blacklight poster of "Jesus of Nazarene", like the ones you get in a gas station for $15. The guy knew no scripture, wasn't really interested, but this poster was his guardian. So the guy had a name and a few rudiments, and he did incessantly talk about 'love', but it can still be challenging to talk to such a one. How much common ground is there?

But, but, but.... if God puts that guy with the poster on the wall, in your life, do you despise him? Remember the question the Pharisees asked, "Who is my neighbor?" Or do you receive him, or her, as best as you can?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Today if you read Erasmus, you may be surprised by the depth of his writings. Luther, while he did pick up on "Justification by faith", is much more shallow. (This is my personal opinions of course, but it's the opinion of one raised Protestant fundamentalist who was trained to despise and overlook everything Catholic).

I am not arguing here that Luther made the wrong choice, and that the RCC is the "true" church. The RCC arguably abandoned the Orthodox, who would more rightly claim the "true" church mantle. But arguing over "true" churches is a waste of breath.

I just think it is interesting that when Nee and Lee left the Protestants they didn't care much about the sanctity of the church. Suddenly it was about the sanctity of the ground. But once they got it up and running, o boy do we love the church! They did a complete reversal. Now you could never question the church, or its leaders. Even if they were wrong they were the shepherds of the flock. But that logic didn't hold when Nee and Lee were under the Protestants.

The problem with being a fundamentalist is that you hold the rules when they are to your benefit, but when they aren't helpful you ignore them, and search for other rules.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I am not arguing here that Luther made the wrong choice, and that the RCC is the "true" church. The RCC arguably abandoned the Orthodox, who would more rightly claim the "true" church mantle. But arguing over "true" churches is a waste of breath.

I just think it is interesting that when Nee and Lee left the Protestants they didn't care much about the sanctity of the church. Suddenly it was about the sanctity of the ground. But once they got it up and running, o boy do we love the church! They did a complete reversal. Now you could never question the church, or its leaders. Even if they were wrong they were the shepherds of the flock. But that logic didn't hold when Nee and Lee were under the Protestants.

The problem with being a fundamentalist is that you hold the rules when they are to your benefit, but when they aren't helpful you ignore them, and search for other rules.

Interesting views aron.

I grew up as an active Catholic, educated in their schools, named after my uncle The Priest OFM. Luther and them Lutherans were regularly denigrated. Then i joined the LC's and Luther suddenly was a great hero, the first MOTA in fact, but of course we still condemned those blasted Lutherans.

It all boils down to which side of the fence we are on. According to Lee, God would judge me if i ever spoke up about his failures, but it seemed as if God would provide us with a double blessing for openly critiqueing those outside the Recovery in "poor, poor, Chritianity."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Two further comments (sorry, I am chatty). First regarding the RCC, it could be argued that Luther and Erasmus showed two alternate choices. Both perceived the failures, some deep and profound, which swirled around them. But Erasmus stayed. Today if you read Erasmus, you may be surprised by the depth of his writings. Luther, while he did pick up on "Justification by faith", is much more shallow.

aron,

While I observe the differentiation of outcome for Erasmus and Luther, and wonder if things might have been better for all if Luther had not accepted the protection of the German government and departed, in our current state of affairs how does one determine what is the place to stay? Just because you are born into a particular "tradition," or saved within it, or change affiliation at some point in the past, what is it that makes any one of them the one to keep?

There is evidence within the RCC that things are not simply stagnant, nor that they only go downhill. But they do not move quickly to change. so has Martin Luther stayed the course, he or his thoughts might have had to outlive a pope to become seriously debated and considered, and possibly added to the teachings. But through his own exit, he help create the current system in which all groups, new or old, are prone to stick to their ways and let those who disagree just keep quiet or leave. So when things get really bad, rather than having a self-correcting system of open discussion — even of issues that are contentious — they (we) all tend to take a position, close our eyes and ears, and run off anyone who disagrees.

In that kind of system, the only way that truly bad teachings and practices are exposed is for something that looks a lot like the Mars Hill Seattle, not Grand Rapids) debacle of the past weeks. Many of the satellite groups have completely disbanded in no time. And those that live on will struggle to find their way in a different landscape. And it will not be discussions that changes the LRC. It will either be such an exodus that the people start to take note that something is wrong and eventually the excrement hits the fan, or it will slowly push the gross sins, and the extremism into the past and rock along as another Seventh Day Adventist or similar group that insisted on remaining loyal to a lousy (dead) leader and fade into obscurity.

I applaud those who remain where they are not entirely in agreement. But that is generally meaningful and successful where the differences are on the table, not hidden in a closet. Where the Pentecostal guy is more than just attending a decidedly non-Pentecostal assembly. (teaching, even leading, but able to abide by the doctrinal statement) But I am not sure that I can agree to continue to abide by a doctrinal standard that is as errant as that of the LRC just because I was already there when I realized how off it was. If I had know in advance, I would never have darkened the door. Why does the historical fact that I did darken their door make me somehow under obligation to stay? Maybe we just assert that I was visiting — for 14 years.

[OBW]

I will add that when you add the fact of a spouse who is taken one direction while the other intends a different direction, there is a dynamic at play that is not as simple as the singular consideration. So I do not propose drastic actions where differences of opinion among married persons is involved. Yet that does not mean that unanimity is required.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

aron,

While I observe the differentiation of outcome for Erasmus and Luther, and wonder if things might have been better for all if Luther had not accepted the protection of the German government and departed, in our current state of affairs how does one determine what is the place to stay?

There is evidence within the RCC that things are not simply stagnant, nor that they only go downhill. But they do not move quickly to change. so has Martin Luther stayed the course, he or his thoughts might have had to outlive a pope to become seriously debated and considered, and possibly added to the teachings. But through his own exit, he help create the current system in which all groups, new or old, are prone to stick to their ways and let those who disagree just keep quiet or leave. So when things get really bad, rather than having a self-correcting system of open discussion — even of issues that are contentious — they (we) all tend to take a position, close our eyes and ears, and run off anyone who disagrees.

I know there are people out there who'd condemn the bolded part above, as the musings of an armchair warrior. They would say that Luther was a "lover of Christ who gave his all and offered a sweet fragrance to the Lord". Etc.

But we have the benefit of history, and time, and we should use it. It is not sacrilegious to ask such questions, and to pose such "counterfactuals" in history. To ask "what if". If nothing else it makes us a little more humble, and not so quick to leap to the conclusion that we are right, and wearing white hats, and the other party is black as sin itself. I think that contention is a tricky business. Surely I as a poster here have been outspoken, repeatedly, but at the same time I hope to always try to remember that "the other guy" is still arguably my neighbor.

I really know too little of the story: did Luther really try to remain, or was there some other force(s) at work? Did Nee really try to work it out with the Protestants, or was he seeking an excuse to jump ship and start his own thing, with himself as Top Dog (naturally)? I can neither condemn nor excuse... I truly don't know. My own motives here are likewise not always pristine -- maybe sometimes I just want to vent instead of closing the door and praying to the Father who is in secret. Maybe I just want to preen and puff up my "knowledge" in front of an audience. Who knows? So a little circumspection is in order.

But I will say this: if you read Luther's last letters blasting Erasmus for betraying "the cause" (Reformation), and read Erasmus' reply, it looks like Luther is the foaming madman and Erasmus has retained his sanity. Not only that, but Luther's stance regarding the European Jewry, and his indifference to the tens of thousands who were butchered in the peasant uprisings which followed his political/religious unrest, reveal him as not God's Man of the Hour. Luther was just another bozo on the bus, doing his best. Likewise if you read Nee's later work it seems that he really forgot all about Jesus Christ in his attempt to reconcile his movement ("the Church") with the onrushing Communist Party ("the State"). His writings to me show no light at all. A lamentable darkness, in fact. But would I have done worse?

Originally Posted by OBW

I applaud those who remain where they are not entirely in agreement. But that is generally meaningful and successful where the differences are on the table, not hidden in a closet. Where the Pentecostal guy is more than just attending a decidedly non-Pentecostal assembly. (teaching, even leading, but able to abide by the doctrinal statement) But I am not sure that I can agree to continue to abide by a doctrinal standard that is as errant as that of the LRC just because I was already there when I realized how off it was. If I had know in advance, I would never have darkened the door. Why does the historical fact that I did darken their door make me somehow under obligation to stay? Maybe we just assert that I was visiting — for 14 years.

The problem here, as I see it, is that we are trying to move from specifics to generalities, and back and forth. It can get strange quickly. Surely there are cases where the HS says "Leave". And others where the word is unequivocally "Stay". As one who shuttled from Protestantism to the Local Churches and back, if anyone should have circumspection here, it is I. And as our friend "Unregistered" pointed out, it is often the people who are rootless, not stable, the proverbial lost sheep, that get tossed to and fro in the welter of ideas around them. Surely that was me as well; I have shared my testimony.

But Paul did write that if God called you as a slave, remain as a slave. If you were called while married to an unbeliever, that is God's problem, not yours. Surely Luther, and Nee, and other "schizmatics" should really ponder these ideas carefully. I will at least say that much. I do know that it is useful to find a forum to put my thoughts in the open. Luther didn't have a discussion forum; we do.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am now at peace with God about where I worship. I no longer have the dread of inserting my will into my husband's efforts to lead and facing the possible negative outcomes. I still speak to him about those things that bother me and he listens patiently. He still loves the LC. I love him and want him to be happy. And I want to be with him where he is happy--as long as Christ is our focus and center.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.

Interesting life transition testimony. If you are at peace I don't know if anything else can be said.

In regards to Daystar, I wasn't involved but a considerable number of people lost money at the urging of WL. It's interesting that you would compare it to the many things that go wrong in churches. In regards to the Catholic church it would be like comparing WL to the Pope who would be found out that he mistreated people and took their money. Once people found out he would be condemned and the RCC would lose members. Yes, it happens but after WL condemned other churches for being Babylon he was held to a higher standard. As it turned out he was on the same plane as those he judged harshly and his preaching didn't produce the transformation expected by people in him. In addition, it seems like the LC swept it all under the rug along with other problems.

As I indicated, I think some of the "judging" of the LC is because of their own harsh judging of others, their lawsuits, their mistreatment of others such as excommunication of long time caring members etc. They opened themselves up to it.

Once a person becomes involved in it the experience of many is that it is very difficult to get out and when you do often people have a difficult time over a course of time. Of course, each person is different. Hope it all continues to work for you.

[Cal]

Unregistered,

You are to be commended for seeking peace with your husband and a reasonable resolution to your life dilemma. A divided house is not a good thing, and the Bible does ask the wife to submit.

At the same time, you should realize that your decision to make the best of things in no way excuses the LC for its crimes. We are not just talking about money mismanagement. We are talking about treating people as chattel. In a word, abuse. No group is perfect, but the best groups own up to their mistakes. The LC's abuses are not relics from the past. They continue to this day as common policy. The LC will not change until the rank-and-file insist on accountability. That means your husband and you and the rest of the common members.

[Cassidy]

Unregistered> These are just my experiences and thoughts. I hope that you find them useful as you map out your faith destiny. And I sincerely hope that I have offended no one with my sharing of my life experience.


Sister, thank you for sharing your experience. I am deeply touched how the Lord would not let you go, how you responded to Him, your experience of the cross, and how the Lord blessed you with the peace that passes all understanding for your obedience.

May grace continue to chase after you on your journey.

[UntoHim]

Ok, in deference to our new friend ZoeGrace, can we all take a step back, take in a deep breath and try to be a little less confrontational? Only around this place do you see people go at each other on a thread where somebody is reaching out for some words of wisdom!

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

Any words of wisdom? I don't want this to destroy our marriage, but it is very lonely outside of the LC when that is considered THE only social life! It is hard to have friends when they are looked upon as a recruit! And, if they are not interested, they are considered foolish and in “Babylon.”

I find your website very informative. Many of the things I question are being discussed. It's hard to be a fairly “new” Christian (30 years catholic) and try to muddle through all of this! Especially when you live with a very strong personality who knows the LC teachings forwards and backwards!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok, in deference to our new friend ZoeGrace, can we all take a step back, take in a deep breath and try to be a little less confrontational? Only around this place do you see people go at each other on a thread where somebody is reaching out for some words of wisdom!

ZoeGrace,

Pray for your husband and marriage, and use the Word when you pray. Pray in faith and be on the lookout for sins that hinder your prayers.

Howzat?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZoeGrace,

Pray for your husband and marriage, and use the Word when you pray. Pray in faith and be on the lookout for sins that hinder your prayers.

Howzat?

Excellent prophesying. Short, quick, living, and to the point!

But OBW will still find fault, you see, because spiritual things can't just be brokendown into fragmented instructions ...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Excellent prophesying. Short, quick, living, and to the point!

But OBW will still find fault, you see, because spiritual things can't just be brokendown into fragmented instructions ...

Not very charitable. Seems like you can find fault in my speaking before I make it.

And I find no fault in Igzy's comments.

I did find fault in a series where UntoHim insisted upon references from Dave, but not Igzy (and there was no relevant verse in the post quoted by Dave). And then when verses were provided by Igzy, I did not find them to make the case that he appeared to be making. And even as I said that, I noted that it was what I could read in what he said, not what I actually thought was intended.

But what you write is what gets read, not what you intend. (And don't I know that well.) And providing irrelevant verses weakens whatever case is actually being made.

It is not unimportant.

No, this is not the right thread for the discussion, but it is where it happened, and just taking it elsewhere sometimes makes it seem bigger than it really is.

[OBW]

BTW. Short, quick and to the point can be good (and probably was in this case). Living, on the other hand, is subjective. If you mean that Igzy was alive when he wrote it, then that is fairly certain. If you mean that the instruction was short, quick, and to the point, therefore living, then just say short, quick and to the point. If you meant something spiritual by it, then what does it mean? The right thing to say? An important thing to say? A reasonable thing to say?

But short, quick and to the point is not always the best answer . . . unless you expect to hear the little bells ringing on your testimony if it goes over the allotted time.

Again, off topic. But I seem to be turning into the LRC-speak Natzi.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZoeGrace,

Pray for your husband and marriage, and use the Word when you pray. Pray in faith and be on the lookout for sins that hinder your prayers.

Howzat?

Only sis Zoe can say. I would just add that sometimes prayer can be an avoidance to what should be done in the first place.

Only sis Zoe can know if prayer is helping her or not. Maybe prayer can end up leading us away from what we know should be done.

None of this is easy when we're going thru it. Maybe we can't give definitive answers to our sister. But we can stand with her. And we can pray for her.

And wish our sister ZoeGrace nothing but blessings ... whatever the outcome.

Ha.old

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe prayer can end up leading us away from what we know should be done.

Not likely. Not real prayer anyway.

[Lisbon]

I've had a personal saying for many years,"there's no telling what's in the Bible." Within the last couple of years I came across 2Chron 20;12. This is one of the top verses in my Bible. Jehoshaphat is being attacked by some group and he quotes, "Oh our God, see all these enemies coming against us which we are powerless to fight off. We don't know what to do but our eyes are on You." That's our case most of the time. Things really have to be simple for us to take care of.

Praise the Lord and our eyes can be and must be on Him.

Lisbon

[boughtbyJesus]

Blessings ZoeGrace,

I am a new member having just posted my own experience with this group. When I read your 1st post, it was like reading my own experience.

My husband too has said some of the hurtful things you wrote about and I feel your pain. I am currently in the midst of these scenarios in my own home.

I pray that God would show us both the way to interact with one another and to treat each other with love and kindness and have stopped (not always successfully) telling him he has been brainwashed and has been deceived. I have also stopped trying to change him or what he believes. I realize that I cannot change his heart, that is not my job nor is it something that I can accomplish. I'm just giving it to the Lord, he is sovereign, he is good, he is faithful, and in his time and in his way, my husband will see the light!