... What HE says!

[Dancing]

Isn't that a colloquial expression?... What he says?

You know, a kind of slang today when someone doesn't want to redefine what someone else said in his or her own words he or she says, "what he says". Lol... Well, that's the approach I like to take with the Word of God: What he says. At this point in my Christian life the only thing that matters to me is what he says. We can clarify what he says but I, for my part, draw the line there. If he doesn't say it I am NOT interested in it.

There are some things WL said which the Bible doesn't say and there's a good number of things he did not teach which the Bible does teach. I've had 25 years of what witness Lee says. I don't want to spend too much time on those in this thread, except for the sake of comparison and contrast. Rather, I would like to look at some of the things the Bible does teach and WL may not have.

I think this is the first law of hermeneutics, right? To take the Bible for what it says in its context? Please refine that if necessary. Thank you in advance.

David said " o how I love thy law! " if David were a 17-year-old Pittsburgher today I think he would say "yo! what he says, bro!"

You've heard the expression, "His word is law ". This simply means his word has authority. What he says goes. And a person like that you better take at his word. that's how I believe we should take God's Word. don't separate it into law versus grace. That will make you sick. Just take the whole thing. David also said, " the entrance of your words give light". All his word will do that. But we all know light supplies nutrients. it also kills germs. The important thing is that we be in the light.

[Dancing]

Sorry, UntoHim...I should have posted this under a different forum other than suggestions and feedback. Do you have a suggerstion? Or create a new forum like, "What does the Bible really say?" or "A Fresh Look at the Bible"

[TLFisher]

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy)

Yet in Acts 5:1-4
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

In the principle of this passage from Acts, Witness Lee held back some of the facts regarding the events mentioned in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
If you read the testimonies of John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls, a reader may understand much of what Witness Lee and the current blending brothers did not want to come into light and why Witness Lee would say "The matter now stops here."

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by Terry

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy)

Yet in Acts 5:1-4
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

In the principle of this passage from Acts, Witness Lee held back some of the facts regarding the events mentioned in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
If you read the testimonies of John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls, a reader may understand much of what Witness Lee and the current blending brothers did not want to come into light and why Witness Lee would say "The matter now stops here."

Awesome parallel, Terry. I wouldn’t want to be WL.

Jas 3:1 NKJV
"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

What a warning to all of us. We may not teach large audiences like WL did but whenever we teach ALL of us can humble ourselves before the Lord that we may hear what HE SAYS. When we speak what He says and be careful not to neglect what He says at every time we speak, we can rest asssured we won't suffer this judgment.

And we see the same principle can be extended to and illustrated in the safety we have in mutual fellowship. When we all together receive from our heavenly Father and share "in sincerity and truth" with one another we have greater clarity of the Father's word and will. This is the church life!

What a warning. We will never forget these lessons. They are invaluable. I encourage everyone: Don't despise nor despair at the experiences we've gone through. Some people go their whole lives and never learn. THAT'S the greater tragedy.

[Dancing]

It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?” I was in a state of humility I had not known since I’d first found “The Recovery”.

Thank God for the internet. Virtually, ANY questions we possess can be investigated very effectively. Not only so, but I knew a brother who was among us that was speaking words of truth and life. He’d “gone back to the Bible” and sought out others’ counsel (ie., outside the LCs). I asked him for some book recommendations and got to work. I took off on my own at that point. In the last 8 years I’ve probably read 10 times the number of books I’d read my whole life (excluding WL and WN).

One of the books I read around 2007 was Messianic Church Arising by Robert D. Heidler. Through it the Lord blessed my heart and began to fill in many holes that existed in my understanding of the Bible for 30 years. In this post I just want to address the simple question: "What about the Jews?" And I will present some points from the Bible that show that God is not done with the Jews, by any stretch. Along the way I’ll have to bring up some of the errors in WL’s teaching that lend themselves to our dismissing of the Jews.

The first point I must bring up is simple: God’s faithfulness. He made a covenant with Abraham, extending it to Isaac, jacob, and all his descendants:

"Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."" - Gen 12:1-3 NKJV

I think these verses are so familiar to many of us! At least, I heard it spoken not infrequently, but it was in the long run used to reference US, not Israel. This covenant God made with Abraham is so significant because here God chooses a particular man through whom He promises to bless the whole world and He places the sole responsibility of fulfilling it on Himself. And now I have to ask: Would God EVER break this promise? Does the Bible support a failure on His part to fulfill this? Quite the contrary. The prophets, whose writings comprise a huge percentage of the scriptures, speak time and time again of His love for His people, their disobedience and His subsequent pain, and above all, His affirmation to make good His promises to them in spite of their rebellion.

Now I want to go to Romans. It’s interesting to note how little WL referred to chapters 9-11 of that book. As I recall, he referred to those chapters as “parenthetical”. In other words, they were a side point, not the main point of this book known as “The gospel according to Paul”. I’m going to refute that claim. I will say that they are central to the book and central to the gospel. And here’s why: Though Israel as a nation failed to receive their Messiah/King, God has promised there is an elect, a remnant to whom God (through the gentile church) will show mercy; and through the nation's receiving of their Messiah toward the end of this age will come the greatest revival of all time.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? ... And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." - Rom 11:1-5, 11-15, 23-32 NKJV

This is the oneness that Jesus spoke of in John 17. It is the one new man Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2. It’s the oneness of Jew and Gentile: the most powerful testimony of God to the world. It's the kingdom plan.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Dancing

It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?” I was in a state of humility I had not known since I’d first found “The Recovery”.

Thank God for the internet. Virtually, ANY questions we possess can be investigated very effectively. Not only so, but I knew a brother who was among us that was speaking words of truth and life. He’d “gone back to the Bible” and sought out others’ counsel (ie., outside the LCs). I asked him for some book recommendations and got to work. I took off on my own at that point. In the last 8 years I’ve probably read 10 times the number of books I’d read my whole life (excluding WL and WN).

One of the books I read around 2007 was Messianic Church Arising by Robert D. Heidler. Through it the Lord blessed my heart and began to fill in many holes that existed in my understanding of the Bible for 30 years. In this post I just want to address the simple question: "What about the Jews?" And I will present some points from the Bible that show that God is not done with the Jews, by any stretch. Along the way I’ll have to bring up some of the errors in WL’s teaching that lend themselves to our dismissing of the Jews.

This is the ONENESS that Jesus spoke of in John 17. It is the one new man Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2. It’s the oneness of Jew and Gentile: the most powerful testimony of God to the world. It's the kingdom plan.

YES DANCING! THE ONE NEW MAN IS THE JEW AND GENTILE IN CHRIST JESUS!
BARUCH HA SHEM HA MESHIAH YAHUSHUAH ! BARUCH HA SHEM ADONAI.

BLESSED IS THE NAME OF MESSIAH JESUS! BLESSED IS THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Carol

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dancing

It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?” I was in a state of humility I had not known since I’d first found “The Recovery”.

There will be a secret rapture for believers in the clouds. Then the Lord will publicly return to the Mount of Olives to fight for Israel.

Attendance at LC meetings counts for nothing.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Dancing

It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?”

A lot in these three sentences. For me, the answers (and more questions) follow on this line:

We are the people who are God's kingdom on earth. Not specifically any subgroup, but rather the whole of the people of God. Even those that we don't think much of. That we think are not as spiritual as we are. Who are too works oriented. Or too emotional. Or too cerebral. Or even too worldly (according the rulebook of our favorite sect, whoever that may be).

For me, while I no longer have regular experiences of near euphoria like we managed to drum up in the LRC, I am more clear and certain that Christ is building his church and it doesn't look like any particular one of our groups. Or like Western Christianity in general. Or like Asian or African Christianity in general. It looks like the people who are where they are becoming salt and light in the environments in which they find themselves.

And they are beginning to become more one. Not necessarily in every minor doctrine, but in the things of unity — Christ, faith, baptism, the Spirit, the Father, etc. I am one with any Christian in this way.

But as for bringing the Lord back, I'm not sure that this is our task. Our task is to bear God's image on the earth. Whenever and however he has decided to return is not something I find to be influenced by my behavior. Or that of large groups of Christians. Paul prayed concerning being taken up from his suffering here on earth. I don't recall him praying, or teaching, that we have a place in the determination of His return. We were told to watch for signs. Yet in almost every generation there are those who point to signs. And we do so and consider that this day may not end. And it might not. And yet another 2,000 years from now some may still be saying the same thing. And it does not make our faith and hope any less secure or meaningful.

Maybe the best solution is to always live as if it is the last that will ever be, and also as if we will be here until we are 95 and losing our minds to dementia, and many generations to come will do the same afterward.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dancing

It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back.

What a peculiar idea. What, is working out the second coming like a complex combination lock ; if we can only get the tumblers just right and on the right numbers Jesus has to come back?

Why don't we just go to Jerusalem and blow up the Temple Mount, to get things rolling?

Yet the promise of doing just that has been used to fleece the sheep more times than can be counted.

And I've read that the selling of the promise of the second coming has been a big hit in mainland China, merchandising on a big scale.

I guess when your miserable and hate life and this awful ugly world the second coming is an easy sell.

Not only you fell for it Dancing, so did I.

[Dave]

I am just a newbie on this site but at first glance I am dumbfounded. My experience was that I was introduced to WN in 1965, "The Normal Christian Life" which completely impacted my life. In 1969, in Santa Cruz, when I met Karl Hammond, the editor of "The Normal Christian Church Life" which is when I first heard of WL I was enamored with it all. When WL in 1971 personally asked me to move to Detroit I immediately moved.

Why were we so impressed? Because of the influence of WN which was really the influence of Angus Kinnear who published his books in England. We had read WN, we were impressed and then we find someone who was a "co-worker" of Nee. Witness Lee..... Wow. We are caught in the net and our hearts and souls are open to all kinds of mischief. We can only reflect on what happened. So far, all the scripture quotes, greek interpretations, elaborations etc are simply working through the process of "what just happened" in our local church experience. Its great and helpful but let's not take all of this too seriously. As I have said previously, until one completely extracts themselves from this process it will go on and on with no end. It is not easy to walk away from all of this and go on with our lives.

Maybe we have spent so many years in the LC that we just can't stop talking about it or analyzing it or its interpretations of scriptures. I am not discounting Nigel or others who are trying to clarify some critical issues of scripture etc for former members of the LC. My point is simply that there seems to be some freight trains which are kind of running off track. I mean, I have a cousin who is a Christian but is heavy into the Israeli thing. I just don't see how that is relevant on this site but I am a newbie and maybe I just don't get it.

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by Dave

I am just a newbie on this site but at first glance I am dumbfounded. My experience was that I was introduced to WN in 1965, "The Normal Christian Life" which completely impacted my life. In 1969, in Santa Cruz, when I met Karl Hammond, the editor of "The Normal Christian Church Life" which is when I first heard of WL I was enamored with it all. When WL in 1971 personally asked me to move to Detroit I immediately moved.

Why were we so impressed? Because of the influence of WN which was really the influence of Angus Kinnear who published his books in England. We had read WN, we were impressed and then we find someone who was a "co-worker" of Nee. Witness Lee..... Wow. We are caught in the net and our hearts and souls are open to all kinds of mischief. We can only reflect on what happened. So far, all the scripture quotes, greek interpretations, elaborations etc are simply working through the process of "what just happened" in our local church experience. Its great and helpful but let's not take all of this too seriously. As I have said previously, until one completely extracts themselves from this process it will go on and on with no end. It is not easy to walk away from all of this and go on with our lives.

Maybe we have spent so many years in the LC that we just can't stop talking about it or analyzing it or its interpretations of scriptures. I am not discounting Nigel or others who are trying to clarify some critical issues of scripture etc for former members of the LC. My point is simply that there seems to be some freight trains which are kind of running off track. I mean, I have a cousin who is a Christian but is heavy into the Israeli thing. I just don't see how that is relevant on this site but I am a newbie and maybe I just don't get it.

Hi, Dave.

Thank you so much for your open honest question. I hope the following helps.

I had a similar experience through WN at the beginning. But before that I'd read the Bible. Reading the entire Bible a couple of times made me grieve. It made me ask, "Where are His Jewish believers?" It's written by Jews to Jews (and the world, ultimately). It's all about the Jews. It tells God's story from the beginning of His calling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the nation of Israel. His giving of the law to them was because they were to be His representative people to the whole world.

But this story is just as much about Who God is. What kind of God He is. Though Israel failed as a nation and suffered all the curses He'd promised, His covenant promise would NEVER FAIL. His covenant with Abraham was one-sided. There was no contingency on Abraham. God will keep His word. We see His heart in all the words of the prophets who, over and over again, delivered His messages of grief, sorrow, pain, love, faithfulness, and promise of restoration. Even though, as a nation, they failed to receive their Lord Yeshua, the early church was the remnant of Jewish believers. That remnant has largely "disappeared" into the church over the centuries due to the persecution of the Jews in the early centuries and the proclamations, decisions, rulings, etc. of Constantine and others against them who made celebration of the Passover and the Sabbath illegal, among other things. THIS IS NOT LOVE AND THIS IS NOT GOD'S WAY.

God desires the oneness that is produced through love toward God and one another. We in the LCs have paid a high price to figure this out. We've seen that there are no cookie cutter Christians that please Him. He has made us all to fulfill the purposes He's given us. Malachi 4:5,6 says:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

The word of God came to us through the Jew first. Jesus spoke to the Jew first. Our gospel must go to the Jew first. The Jew has been delegated to bring about world redemption. Their believing will be "like life from the dead" for the whole world.

WL gave us the church life "Chinese style" with a mix of Western Civilization. He claimed it was "only Christ". We know better. He claimed there should be no culture. We now know that all are loved and appreciated by Him. All cultures, peoples, can worship and serve Him according to the way they were created. His times and seasons have placed us all where we are.

Paul says in Ephesians that we have now been made part of "the commonwealth of Israel". They had the advantage (Romans 3:1,2) of having the very words of God entrusted to them. Being joined to them their inheritance is now ours too. We have been grafted into their olive tree. We, the wild olive branches, are secure in His love and care.

But they are the natural branches. They must be grafted back in for Him to return. It's happening now. Over the last several decades there have been accelerating conversions of Jews and many, many, are returning to the land. This also must be for the end to come. There are even prophesies in the OT books of the prophets that speak of the gentiles bringing them back (this happened and is still happening), gentiles planting trees in the land (this happened and is happening) and of teaching them various agricultural techniques in the land(ditto).

Hatred of the Jew/Rejection of the Jew is the greatest tactic of the enemy to cause us to miss, God forbid, even fight against His purposes. He has chosen them and He will complete the work He began in them with the help of those of us whose hearts are turned back to the fathers. But there's another deadly poison that has been spreading as rapidly and perniciously as any antisemitism. That is "Replacement theology". WL didn't come right out and say it but neither did he see or embrace the place of the Jews. After 25 years of his ministry I was pretty clear that WE replaced Israel due to their failure. (Calvin taught this; Dispensationalism implies this somewhat but not as drastically) Physical Jerusalem wasn't even important anymore. WE are the New Jerusalem. This just leaves out way too much of the Bible. WL just allegorized the literal interpretation right out of the Bible.

No, Dave, these freight trains are NOT running off track. We're getting back on track. I, for one, have come back to "my Jewish roots".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dancing

I, for one, have come back to "my Jewish roots".

So you were born a Jew. Good for you. Go back to your roots. But most out here if any weren't born a Jew, and don't have Jewish roots. So we can't join you. I'm sorry to say but to us you're lookin a little loony. Maybe we're just not understanding you. So please go on and explain more.

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you were born a Jew. Good for you. Go back to your roots. But most out here if any weren't born a Jew, and don't have Jewish roots. So we can't join you. I'm sorry to say but to us you're lookin a little loony. Maybe we're just not understanding you. So please go on and explain more.

No, no. We missed a post somewhere. I am NOT Jewish as far as I know. (I've not done a DNA test)

Thanks to bearbear who picked up my oversight...(see one of his last posts) and explained my meaning.

Loony to you may be right on with my Abba God who says I've been grafted into the Israel olive tree:

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" - Rom 11:24 KJV

So, we've been grafted into Israel. We are now partaking of their root system:

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" - Rom 11:17 KJV

And, in Ephesians Paul says:

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." - Eph 2:11-13 KJV

So, you and I are "brought nigh" now, awareness. As believers in Yeshua HaMashiach we are now part of Israel's commonwealth. And we are partaking of the "fatness", the riches of their roots.

Why not munch on that for a while... And check out bearbear's recent post for more info...

[Dancing]

The B-I-B-L-E
Who remembers the children’s song The B-I-B-L-E?

The B-I-B-L-E! Yes! THAT’S the BOOK for me!
I stand ALONE on the WORD OF GOD! The B-I-B-L-E!

Now, if you learned that song BEFORE you met Lee you might yet be okay today, even better, now that you’re free of the “The word according to Lee”.

Or, if someone drummed the TRUTH of the inerrancy of scripture [OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT] into you PRE-Lee you might still have been left standing when your “church life” disintegrated.

However, if you just came under the influence of Lee without having already gained this firm footing, well, it’s no wonder your spiritual strength feels like that of a jellyfish, while at the same time you’re unable to talk to a Christian without feeling superior to them before they’ve even opened their mouth, and you still can’t visit a local congregation and “hear the Word of God” because you probably REALLY only believe the “word of Lee”. And that is a very sad place to be :-/

My recommendation? Listen to these very smart young people and sing along!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnUWGjMu9XQ

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Mat 18:2-4 KJV

"Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts." - Jer 15:16 KJV

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dancing

No, no. We missed a post somewhere. I am NOT Jewish as far as I know.

So as far as you know you have no Jewish roots. Glad we cleared that up. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Dancer

Loony to you may be right on with my Abba God who says I've been grafted into the Israel olive tree:

If God is okay that you are loony then so am I.

And if we're grafted in then we bear different fruit. Better more loving fruit then, better than The Law fruit. Why go back to worse?

Originally Posted by Dancer

So, you and I are "brought nigh" now, awareness. As believers in Yeshua HaMashiach we are now part of Israel's commonwealth. And we are partaking of the "fatness", the riches of their roots.

But our fruit is Christ. Much better than The Law. Why would we seek to go backwards. Why insult the law of Christ?

Methinks you are just filling a vacuum left by leaving the local church.

Originally Posted by Dancer

Why not munch on that for a while... And check out bearbear's recent post for more info...

I saw bearbear's posts. All I have to say is:

Luke 21:8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Dancing

Hi, Dave.

No, Dave, these freight trains are NOT running off track. We're getting back on track. I, for one, have come back to "my Jewish roots".

Dancing, I think Awareness is accurate when he interprets your comments as you claiming Jewish heritage although you explain that your exuberance for Israel is related to scripture and all of us being grafted onto the olive branch.

To me it's just another variation of each person's take on what the scriptures mean. Each quotes scriptures to buoy their interpretation of scriptures to support their position. Of course, WL may be perceived as going off the deep end with his metaphorical interpretation of scriptures which was appealing at the time.

I don't disagree that we should support Israel but I just think you have taken it further than intended. Again, you are just one freight train among many on this forum.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Dave

..Again, you are just one freight train among many on this forum.

Actually, Dave, we all like to think of ourselves as "The little engine that could"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EhpqcXoxGI
....Just sayin.......

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually, Dave, we all like to think of ourselves as "The little engine that could"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EhpqcXoxGI
....Just sayin.......

I guess my point is that all of us who left the LC, at some point, did so because we had doubt in aspects of the LC whether it was our concerns about the teachings of WL, the decisions of WL or the management of our LC or how the LCs were functioning or their practices etc. However, if we reflect back many of us were true believers and we did everything we could to further the LC movement whether it was migration, pray-reading, meeting mornings and evenings almost every day etc. Part of it was just our youth and the time we lived (i.e. 60s and 70s). Now, years later, to be so confident in what we believe, again, that we have again found the "truth" and become again, true believers, is somewhat baffling to me. Again, we quote scripture to buttress our position. What draws us to this -- is it more a personality trait we possess rather the truth we believe we have found? I believe it is important to have an open heart but go forth with trepidation. The only "truth" that I hold onto is the fact that we each possess a divine spark (Col. 1:27). Once we recognize that spark in each other we then know that each of us has value and we can appreciate each person no matter their position or who they might be. Everything flows from that --- but again that is just my outlook.

From another perspective of mine, I brought a considerable number of people into the local church and I am not about to get on a bandwagon of truth telling to bring anyone else into anything other than to appreciate themselves and one another as well as various points of view which is what I think this forum is all about.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually, Dave, we all like to think of ourselves as "The little engine that could"

NOT! I see how high that hill is and realize it's just a waste of effort and energy. First level it with dynamite, then this engine will try. I'll even try with no rails. I prefer to be off the rails anyways. Chug chug. I feel like the little engine that couldn't.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

Why were we so impressed? Because of the influence of WN which was really the influence of Angus Kinnear who published his books in England. We had read WN, we were impressed and then we find someone who was a "co-worker" of Nee. Witness Lee..... Wow. We are caught in the net and our hearts and souls are open to all kinds of mischief.

That sums up how my parents brought my siblings and I into the local church movement.

[TLFisher]

Another saying paraphrased is "don't make an issue of matters, things, or persons." I don't know if WL said it, but commonly I have heard it attributed to a NW elder/co-worker.

Yet Leviticus 5:1-2

Now if a person sins after he hears a public adjuration to testify when he is a witness, whether he has seen or otherwise known, if he does not tell it, then he will bear his guilt

and

James 4:17

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Instead of taking these Biblical principles, the preferred practice is to cover things over.

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by Terry

Another saying paraphrased is "don't make an issue of matters, things, or persons." I don't know if WL said it, but commonly I have heard it attributed to a NW elder/co-worker.

Yet Leviticus 5:1-2

Now if a person sins after he hears a public adjuration to testify when he is a witness, whether he has seen or otherwise known, if he does not tell it, then he will bear his guilt

and

James 4:17

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Instead of taking these Biblical principles, the preferred practice is to cover things over.

Thank you so much for those verses, Terry.
Simple, clear, and SOBERING. This is what I mean about LOVING GOD'S LAW. If we would truly LOVE ALL HIS INSTRUCTION we would TRULY SHOW HIM HONOR. When we treat His word lightly we show Him contempt. This is why we're exhorted to fear Him. It comes from taking Him at His word. When we do we are filled with reverential awe. Then we're motivated to please Him through obedience. We may fail a million times but a million times more He reminds us of the Son of His love. We never diminish His requirement, we just keep repenting.
This is so serious because if we fail in this matter there is a fatal outcome: a hardened heart. And no serious Christian can afford to allow that to happen.

[Lisbon]

I saw the video of the first Psalm tape and maybe not many more. After reading the first Psalm, WL sort of strangely screwed up his mouth and said "Does this sound like God's economy?" And he went on to criticize David for being so much for the Law. His notes in his bible also verify this as well as several other Psalms. Anybody who ever heard him much knew he took issue with any love for the OT law.

He began a speaking in Irving once by saying that Martin Luther said that the book of James should be burned. He sort of said he didn't agree but to quote that in context with bad mouthing James, several Psalms, and more, he is tad amount to agreeing with Luther. It was very evident that Lee was much more comfortable with Paul than Christ. Christ had some very strong speaking about the Law. Maybe that's why the heart of the divine revelation is from Paul and not Christ.

lisbon

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I saw the video of the first Psalm tape and maybe not many more. After reading the first Psalm, WL sort of strangely screwed up his mouth and said "Does this sound like God's economy?" And he went on to criticize David for being so much for the Law. His notes in his bible also verify this as well as several other Psalms. Anybody who ever heard him much knew he took issue with any love for the OT law.

He began a speaking in Irving once by saying that Martin Luther said that the book of James should be burned. He sort of said he didn't agree but to quote that in context with bad mouthing James, several Psalms, and more, he is tad amount to agreeing with Luther. It was very evident that Lee was much more comfortable with Paul than Christ. Christ had some very strong speaking about the Law. Maybe that's why the heart of the divine revelation is from Paul and not Christ.

lisbon

That's interesting, Paul also said he loved the law, though he also acknowledged his inability to keep it according to his fallen nature as did the OT prophets such as Isaiah.

Romans 7:22 (NLT)
I love God’s law with all my heart.

The NT repeats the OT, including the principles that seem to go against one another with uncomfortable tension. It seems like the MOTA was not aware of this, but we can't blame God for that. Jesus never said he would send the MOTA to us to guide us to the truth, but the Holy Spirit who does a much better job apparently (John 16:13).