The Local Church and the Internet

[Freedom]

Something that I have been thinking about recently is whether or not the LC will ever have to confront and come to terms with all the things on the internet that they consider to be “negative”. Before the internet came about, hiding information was easy. Now everyone has access to the same information. It's all there, black and white.

The reason that I began to realize that there are things severely wrong with the LC is because of the information that the internet gave me access to. Without the internet, I would have been likely to accept anything that they told me as fact, because there would be no reason to question what I was told.


I am actually quite impressed that they've been successful thus far in keeping most of those in the LC from reading things on the internet. In this day and age, few people will accept something they are told as fact. I think that most people will “google” something or make an attempt to verify information online. I'm sure most in the LC would do the same for any information except that pertaining to the LC.


I can understand that the older generation would not feel the need as much to verify information online, however, with the younger generation, that is how we all grew up. The LC definitely has the ability to keep those on the inside from obtaining certain information, however, they can't do anything about those on the outside. I wonder when people come in contact with the LC, do they ever go online to see what the group is about? Do people ever look up what the Recovery Version is when the are given a copy?


I know that one of the LC's main strategies in regards to the internet has been to “flood” it with websites that have every possible URL that might be related to the LC. As someone in the LC, I think that it would be highly suspect if I was researching the LC and came across only pro-LC websites. I for one am not satisfied with reading a single point of view.


Those who are in the LC, even those who are part of the younger generation, don't seem to have any desire to know what the LC is about. They are content with what is presented to them. I don't think that all of the younger generation in the LC even realize that they are not supposed to read things about the LC on the internet. It seems like the LC's current strategy in regards to the internet is built upon the understanding that they have made certain information inaccessible enough, and they are also assuming that people aren't reading “negative” things. I wondered how long they can honestly expect their strategy to work? I know that people in the LC are reading things on the internet as is evidenced by people like me who have registered on this forum recently. I think there's at least a few of us who are still in the LC. Are people like me who have seen past their propaganda just an anomaly, or is their strategy slowly failing?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Without the internet, I would have been likely to accept anything that they told me as fact, because there would be no reason to question what I was told.

Until a certain LSM publication came out around 1990, I did not question what I was told. I may not have agreed with what I was told, but I didn't question it.

[Freedom]

I don't think that the LC is aware about how fine the line is that they're walking on. People on the outside do read what's on the internet. I saw several instances while I was in college where we had people start coming to our Bible study and after some time they did some "research" about the recovery version or WL/LSM and that was the last that we saw of them.

For those on the inside, it is quite discouraging to go through all the trouble of inviting someone to a bible study only to find that they leave in a matter of a few weeks. What makes it worse is that those taking the lead in the LCs, never tell anyone what is said on the internet besides saying that it's "negative". The blame is always placed on the rank and file members for losing people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

For those on the inside, it is quite discouraging to go through all the trouble of inviting someone to a bible study only to find that they leave in a matter of a few weeks. What makes it worse is that those taking the lead in the LCs, never tell anyone what is said on the internet besides saying that it's "negative". The blame is always placed on the rank and file members for losing people.

It's more than just the internet why people are lost. Several I know just didn't "have the vision" of the ministry. Local churches have become more of ministry churches than being local churches. Not all Christians share the vision which LSM publishes.

[Truth]

The Sound of Silence:
http://vimeo.com/14192175

The entire RC/LSM organization reminds me of this in China. I am sure there are many more similar organizations out there, such as the Mormons. No matter how big the internet becomes, the leadership will remain silent on certain subjects.

(Actually the Mormons are better than LSM in some way, at least the leadership has publicly confessed to some wrong doings of the past)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

The Sound of Silence:
http://vimeo.com/14192175

The entire RC/LSM organization reminds me of this in China. I am sure there are many more similar organizations out there, such as the Mormons. No matter how big the internet becomes, the leadership will remain silent on certain subjects.

In regard to LC history since 1962, I believe the younger generations that will become future leaders either don't know or don't care and the current leadership had too much a role in the past, for it to come into the light, these leaders would suffer loss to their reputations. Because of that, to bring up the past is a taboo subject.

This is the precisely the problem with the church in Kampala. They aim for the good building material on the campuses, hook and reel a few unsuspecting believers in....but lo, and behold, within a few months, they have vanished!...The problem was analysed by the eldership, and it was discovered that the root cause of the disappearances was the "evil internet'...ha!..(The church in Kampala has been in existence now for 11 years....and how many regular, dear saints meet?...15..)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

.
What makes it worse is that those taking the lead in the LCs, never tell anyone what is said on the internet besides saying that it's "negative".

That's because those taking the lead don't know themselves what is on the internet. Had they, might be sharing the same concerns brought out on this forum.

I believe local leaders are told general things such as so and so is slandering the brothers, attacking the ministry, etc. Local leaders tend to take such statements at face value without checking the facts.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's because those taking the lead don't know themselves what is on the internet. Had they, might be sharing the same concerns brought out on this forum.

I believe local leaders are told general things such as so and so is slandering the brothers, attacking the ministry, etc. Local leaders tend to take such statements at face value without checking the facts.

I'm curious also as what part of LC leadership actually reads these forums. I know the blendeds to, but I wouldn't think many of the elders do. I'm sure some do though. I've heard brothers like Ron make vague references to things said on the internet, so I'm sure he reads things here.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm curious also as what part of LC leadership actually reads these forums. I know the blendeds to, but I wouldn't think many of the elders do. I'm sure some do though. I've heard brothers like Ron make vague references to things said on the internet, so I'm sure he reads things here.

I think leadership just hear vague generalities, but nothing specific. I am sure DCP has their monitors here as well as thebereans and notify Ron among other blendeds about it.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's because those taking the lead don't know themselves what is on the internet. Had they, might be sharing the same concerns brought out on this forum.

I believe local leaders are told general things such as so and so is slandering the brothers, attacking the ministry, etc. Local leaders tend to take such statements at face value without checking the facts.

I know it's hard to say, but I'm still relatively convinced that the scandals from the 80's are not quite as hidden as you seem to think, Terry. I think we want to believe that when people learn about the strange things from the past, they will understand that LSM is just another ministry among many. And has no claim to calling itself, "the ministry of the age." But alas, for some people it is apparently so much more complicated than that... <sigh> ...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I know it's hard to say, but I'm still relatively convinced that the scandals from the 80's are not quite as hidden as you seem to think, Terry. I think we want to believe that when people learn about the strange things from the past, they will understand that LSM is just another ministry among many. And has no claim to calling itself, "the ministry of the age." But alas, for some people it is apparently so much more complicated than that... <sigh> ...

I know some that had never heard of the things that actually went on in Anaheim until the last 2 or 3 years. It was not known where it was not known. People who heard and stayed around got fellowshipped really quickly to be quiet about it. And the rest left. So only those nearby had any idea in a broad way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I know some that had never heard of the things that actually went on in Anaheim until the last 2 or 3 years. It was not known where it was not known. People who heard and stayed around got fellowshipped really quickly to be quiet about it. And the rest left. So only those nearby had any idea in a broad way.

Titus Chu knew and supported John Ingalls, that is until Lee and Son talked to him about his loyalties, and then TC flip-flopped.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by OBW

I know some that had never heard of the things that actually went on in Anaheim until the last 2 or 3 years. It was not known where it was not known. People who heard and stayed around got fellowshipped really quickly to be quiet about it. And the rest left. So only those nearby had any idea in a broad way.

Fair enough, OBW. But you acknowledge that some people know, stay, and keep quiet. So I'm not sure how you can be so sure that "only those nearby had any idea in a broad way." Do you mean nearby Anaheim? I was in another area of the country, and I can tell you for a fact that some people where I was know about problems arising from Philip Lee, Daystar, et cetera, and remain loyal and devoted to the Lord's Recovery.

Not saying I can explain it. Just saying I saw it.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I know it's hard to say, but I'm still relatively convinced that the scandals from the 80's are not quite as hidden as you seem to think, Terry. I think we want to believe that when people learn about the strange things from the past, they will understand that LSM is just another ministry among many. And has no claim to calling itself, "the ministry of the age." But alas, for some people it is apparently so much more complicated than that... <sigh> ...

Most have not read Speaking the Truth in Love or Reconsideration of the Vision. Rather Fermentation of the Present Rebellion or the book Kangas and Robichaux wrote. I know family members regard the other side of the coin as rumors while what LSM pulbishes is considered to be more factual.
Years ago before coming to this forum, I had asked my (now late) uncle about Phillip Lee. In all my years with my uncle, that was the only time I saw an outburst of anger. That in itself indicates there is merit to John Ingall's book and the anonymous author(s) who wrote Reconsideration of the Vision.

The best I have heard from current elders regarding our LC history is "feel to honor the feeling of the body". This was after I provided Bill mallon's letter to Witness Lee among other writings regarding the past.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

The best I have heard from current elders regarding our LC history is "feel to honor the feeling of the body". This was after I provided Bill mallon's letter to Witness Lee among other writings regarding the past.

Whose body are we feeling to honor?

[Lisbon]

The minister at "my" church has been speaking from the two letters to Timothy. You can't touch this in the LC. Receive not an accusation against an elder except with two or three witnesses. I believe it is well established that an accusation with ten accusers does not fly in the LC. They can smear and get rid of ten as well as one. Any accusation in the LC is divisive and they remove all divisions. Remember Paul said I think in Phil that everyone should speak the same thing. That does simplify things I have to admit. I happen to be a tee totaler but if the BBs want to OK drinking in the LSM it is certainly not any of my business. Bug off or get out. We love you anyway.

It's hard for me to understand "saints" who knew the fiasco in Anaheim and LSM in the late 80's can stomach such. Personally I knew little of this until I came to this forum but I have been able to confirm it elsewhere.

Liisbon

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

It's hard for me to understand "saints" who knew the fiasco in Anaheim and LSM in the late 80's can stomach such. Personally I knew little of this until I came to this forum but I have been able to confirm it elsewhere.

I know. A lot of people there feel "trapped" in some weird kind of way. I know I did. Did you ever feel trapped when you were there?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I know. A lot of people there feel "trapped" in some weird kind of way. I know I did. Did you ever feel trapped when you were there?

This can be a feeling of older brothers and sisters who know the history, but don't see any better alternatives.
On one hand feeling trapped, but on the other hand would love to see the bb's subjected to depositions. Answering truthfully under oath for the purpose of acknowledging the matters surrounding Daystar, Phillip Lee, etc.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

This can be a feeling of older brothers and sisters who know the history, but don't see any better alternatives.
On one hand feeling trapped, but on the other hand would love to see the bb's subjected to depositions. Answering truthfully under oath for the purpose of acknowledging the matters surrounding Daystar, Phillip Lee, etc.

Terry, I get the feeling there's a lot you're not saying. Obviously you don't have to say any more than you wish. But if you feel to share, I'm interested to know more about what your uncle's reaction was re John Ingalls?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Terry, I get the feeling there's a lot you're not saying. Obviously you don't have to say any more than you wish. But if you feel to share, I'm interested to know more about what your uncle's reaction was re John Ingalls?

To be honest rayliotta, it was a question I wasn't expecting to be asked that evening. Having been driving all day from Twin Falls, I was really mentally fatigued. He was the one asking the question and I responded John is still living in Anaheim. That's when my uncle brought up hosting John for hospitality.
I wondered how many more older couples in the local churches have fond memories of former elders and leading ones?