Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 07:11 AM

I've been realizing lately that many of those leaving the LCs have a damaged idea of who God is and end up knowingly or unknowingly blaming and mistrusting Jesus when the anger should really be directed towards Satan and the deception he wrought in Witness Lee's life and teaching. I believe we can recognize who is behind good fruit and bad fruit based on John 10:10. Satan comes to kill steal and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly.

I believe Witness Lee seriously misrepresented who Jesus was in the way he lived and taught, and this has done incredible damage to the reputation and person of Jesus among those who really invested and poured out their lives into the LRC.

One of the ten commandments is to not take the Lord's name in vain. To me this goes beyond using God's name as a swear word- and extends to those who carry the label of being a "Christian" or even more, a minister, pastor or other leader in the Christian church. Those who claim to follow Christ can either glorify or shame God's name based on how they live their lives.

Warnings about wrongly slandering God's name via an unrepentant sinful lifestyle is found throughout scripture. I'll put some references I can think of at the top of my head here:

"For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”" - Romans 2:24

".. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake" - Psalm 23:3

"Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered" - 2 Peter 2:2

With this introduction I'd like to do a quick bible study of 2 Peter 2 in the New Living Translation and relate how it connects with many accounts of Witness Lee's life and teachings in this forum. Also when I mention Witness Lee please note that I'm also trying to expose the spirit that was deceiving him, and not necessarily his person. Our war is not against flesh and blood but the satanic spirits and principalities and powers of the air.

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 07:26 AM

2 Peter 2
New Living Translation (NLT)
The Danger of False Teachers

Verse 1: "But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves."

Commentary: Many of you may disagree but let me just speak from a Lordship Salvation adherent's point of view. Witness Lee taught that we shouldn't worry about whether something is good or bad, but whether or not it has God. This sounds biblical, but it overrides commands in many scriptures throughout the OT and NT which tell us to pay attention to righteousness and to live holy lives (eg Romans 6, Ezekiel 18, James, Titus, 1 2 Timothy etc.). Furthermore he distorted the biblical definition of good fruit (recruiting more LSM adherents) and bad fruit (being disloyal to the ministry). The NT clearly teaches that good fruit are works born of the Holy Spirit (love, joy, peace, kindness etc.) and bad fruit are works of the flesh (greed, sexual immorality etc.). Because the NT teaches that every tree that does not bear good fruit is cast down and burned (Matthew 7:19, Luke 3:9), I believe the value system he set in place is destructive and leading many of his followers to hell whether or not they think they are saved and believe in Jesus.

Another one is easy-believism. Witness Lee taught you are saved once you simply say "O Lord Jesus!" regardless of the condition of your heart and knowledge of the gospel. This teaching only encourages false converts to think they are saved of which I may have been one for over twenty years of my life. http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html does an excellent analysis of this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say "O Lord" three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, "O Lord, O Lord." Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they have the intention or not, as long as they open the window, the air will get in. It is not a matter of teaching; it is a matter of touching the seven Spirits of God." Witness Lee, Stream Magazine, Vlll: l, Feb l, 1970, 6.

I was recently at a gospel meeting when one was sharing about a story of a man in China who used to ride his bike around and simply call out "O Lord Jesus" and tried to get other people - who had no knowledge of Christ to do the same so that by doing so they would be saved, having "called on the name of the Lord." Ac 2:21 "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." In this phrase they take "calling on the name" out of context, not considering the figure of speech being used. But they should have realized their error if they simply read Romans 10

Romans 10:13,14
"for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

To call on someone's name is not simply to mouth the words, as they advocate. One must first know the person. In reality what happens in such conversions is that a person is given the phrase "O Lord Jesus", and then sticks it on whatever idol the person has built in their own mind of what a "Jesus" is, rather than conforming their definition of Christ to the Bible. (But then again I find similar practices quite common in other evangelical churches too)
Secondly in teaching unbelievers to say "O Lord" they are teaching people to lie. To call Jesus "Lord" without the intention of doing what he said, that is to practice lying. Jesus said,"Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?"Luke 6:46 According to Jesus what he thinks calling him "Lord" means is that, perhaps among other things, you are agreeing to to what he said. In fact there are perhaps many Christians who likewise are lying, not having the right to call Jesus "Lord", as allegedly "believing in Christ" but without the intention of doing what he said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure many of you can think of other destructive heresies Witness Lee taught, but these are two that come to mind.

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 07:40 AM

2 Peter 2:2a "Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality."

The Blended Brothers who are carrying the mantle of Witness Lee's teaching and living shamelessly lie and slander folks like Steve Issit and others who have brought to light the history of their iniquity.

2b "And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered."

Many who leave the LRC end up disowning their Christian faith altogether because of LSM's misrepresentation of what Christian fruit should look like.

3 "In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed."

Witness Lee shamelessly solicited investments and donations for DayStar and he made false promises that the investments would be solid because they had the Lord's annointing.

In his recorded phone conversation with Sal Benoit, Witness Lee showed that he clearly knew what he was doing by setting up the money laundering operation via Phosphorus which ensured he would never lose money at the expense of the saints who poured their life savings into his operation

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 07:51 AM

2 Peter 2:12
"These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed."

Witness Lee scoffed at a lot of biblical teaching found in "Christianity". There are too many to name here so I'll just point out one. He laughed at the conventionally accepted view of the trinity as three distinct persons who are not each other, but are God and therefore one. He insisted that his own preposterous view was the correct one-- in which Jesus became the Holy Spirit and the whole Triune God had to go through a process and become flesh.

13 "Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals."

With little apology, in regards to the DayStar debacle, Witness Lee said "the saints lost their virginity" - e.g. he had raped them spiritually and financially and they should have expected it. Does this sound like words that would come from a man of God? or someone who is being influenced by evil spirits?

He shamelessly covered up his own son's sexual immorality and defended them even when he admitted what they were doing was wrong to John Ingalls and many others.

He did all this shamelessly while eating with the same people he was sinning against in LRC's love feasts.

14 "They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God's curse."

Many reported Witness Lee becoming altogether a different person when he would come and do his pitch for DayStar. It sounds like he was possessed by a spirit of greed who manifested himself whenever WLee obeyed this lust. Not only did he lead many otherwise honest saints into sin via depression and anger when the whole DayStar debacle blew up, but he also tempted everyone under him with sycophantic tendencies to sin by selling out the righteous co-workers such as John So, John Ingalls et al. in order to bring themselves up in the LSM hierarchy.

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 08:09 AM

2 Peter 2:15-16
They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong.

Balaam was torn between serving God and money. He ultimately chose money to his own destruction when he taught Balak how to tempt the children of Israel to worship idols and commit sexual immorality. Witness Lee may have genuinely been torn between serving God and money via DayStar. He ultimately chose the latter based on his actions (money laundering, selling out the saints who lost their investments etc). Witness Lee may have taught some good biblical things, but so did Balaam when he blessed the Israelites, but look where he ended up in the end.

Jesus taught us to judge a tree by its fruit. It's evident from this analysis that Witness Lee's tree bore bad fruit, therefore he should not be thought of as someone who represents God and bears his name.

In John 14, Jesus clearly lays out two conditions for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. First is that we must obey God and the second is we must love Him. When someone lives in unrepentant sin it shows that they neither love or obey God, hence they do not have the Holy Spirit in them and cannot be considered a good tree. The source of the bad tree is Satan himself, therefore he deserves the blame for the sad history of the LRC and not Jesus, our precious Saviour who laid up his life for us.

Sorry if I sounded really harsh on Witness Lee, and I'm open to correction if I have not been accurate with this assessment. I would also try to encourage all of us including myself to let all the bitterness go and forgive everyone who hurt us, looking at the Author and Perfecter of our faith in all of this. My point is in trying to expose the works of Satan so that God's name would not be associated with Witness Lee's works.

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

TLFisher · 01-12-2014, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

The Blended Brothers who are carrying the mantle of Witness Lee's teaching and living shamelessly lie and slander folks like Steve Issit and others who have brought to light the history of their iniquity.

To my awareness, there has never been any repentance and asking of forgiveness for what has been in print (against John Ingalls) or what has been spoken (against Steve Isitt among many others). Steve Isitt in particular Ron Kangas singled out at an international conference.

"One of the most evil of these persons, his name is Steve Isitt. He is a man of death."

“Oh, this man of death, Steve Isitt, he wrote something. And someone else is sending it everywhere. I need to figure this out; oh, I never heard these things. Could this be true? Did the brothers behave like that?”

Reading the text does not account for the tone spoken against Steve Isitt. It can be heard at
http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...servidores.mp3

Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

To my awareness, there has never been any repentance and asking of forgiveness for what has been in print (against John Ingalls) or what has been spoken (against Steve Isitt among many others). Steve Isitt in particular Ron Kangas singled out at an international conference.

Doesn't this situation remind you of Pharoah? The more Moses tried to bring Pharaoh to repentance, the more he hardened his heart. Because he could not yield to his pride, Pharaoh's end was a baptism of death in the red sea.

One sign of someone being a child of God is not that he is perfect or sinless but that he is able to turn and repent when the Holy Spirit convicts him. With all this said, I acknowledge that it's possible Witness Lee's repentance at the end of his life was accepted by our merciful God.

But we have to face the reality that this repentance didn't bring any real change to the movement. The idol LSM has set up is Witness Lee pre-repentance. And it may only be worthwhile analyzing the fruit he bore in his life because he is still alive in spirit to many in the LSM who read his words as if they were canon daily.

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 11:54 PM

Acts 20:29
I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.

A sign of a false shepherd is that he is more than willing to slaughter his own sheep to save his own life. This fairly describes what happened to John So, John Ingalls et al who were thrown under the bus when they confronted witness lee.

Jesus showed an example of what a true shepherd would do by laying down his life for the sheep, the exact opposite of the work of a false shepherd. Satan always turns things upside down.

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 08:35 AM

I've summarized everything in a blog post here:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-of-false.html

bearbear · 01-12-2014, 05:45 PM

I wanted to add that I can speak of this from experience. My Dad once preached the gospel to his brothers, my uncles. They received the gospel and got baptized some twenty to thirty years ago. It wasn't less than a year later that they all fell away.

The reason was one of my aunt in laws was some kind of relative in law of Witness Lee. She was privy to a lot of the immorality that was openly being practiced. Witnessing this kind of fruit being produced by a so-called Christian leader stumbled her and all my Uncles to stray away from the faith. To add insult to injury, they probably think they are saved because they believed in Jesus once due to the teachings on free grace.

TLFisher · 01-12-2014, 06:39 PM

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22

Directed more towards the blending brothers. They knew the way of righteousness, but turned away. My point of reference is from Speaking the Truth in Love.
Benson Phillips and Ray Graver knew of the office immorality yet considered it to be a local matter.

Upon coming together we attempted amid protests to mention the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. They steadfastly refused to hear about it, but we proceeded to speak. Ray Graver then quickly rose and exited the room. Benson (in whose home we were meeting) also rose to register his displeasure. We felt that they had knowledge relevant to the matter and wanted to confer with them about it. Benson admitted that the same sister from the LSM office (mentioned previously) had come to him in Taipei to disclose a related event, but he strongly protested our bringing this matter before them. They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. Some time later, however, I apologized to Benson and Ray for this, feeling that if they chose not to hear, we should not have forced the issue. Page 24

On page 12 the author refers to "misconduct and irregeularities" Dan Towle had heard of.

"Dan had also heard some things concerning misconduct and irregularities related to the ministry office that greatly upset him, and he had serious concerns as we did for the Lord’s recovery. At one point he told me that he considered to resign from the work and to leave. We confirmed his feeling that the situation was indeed serious.
Godfred, Dan, and I came together a few times, joined also by Ken Unger on a couple of occasions to fellowship about the situation and what should be done. Ken Unger, who was an elder in Huntington Beach, had himself also become very concerned. We conferred about our burden to speak with Brother Lee, mentioning a number of our concerns that involved aberrations of truth and practice. When we touched the matter of the full-time training in Taipei, Dan responded by saying that if you touch the FTTT, you touch Brother Lee himself, and according to his observation of Brother Lee’s practice, Brother Lee will consider you if you become in his eyes a problem, and then he will proceed to carry out his burden without you. Godfred confirmed this by saying that he had the same realization, that Brother Lee considers anyone who criticizes him a troublemaker and will consider whether or not that one is expendable. This was indeed a most serious consideration concerning Brother Lee. But we did not care to maintain any position or standing for ourselves. We felt that for the Lord’s sake and for the sake of all the brothers and sisters, we must open our hearts to Brother Lee, no matter what it cost us. "

Ohio · 01-14-2014, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible!

That said I have given up trying to convince anyone and am perfectly content with writing down my viewpoint to add color to the discussion in this forum.

bearbear, I've been realizing lately that perhaps you don't have the same view of us ex-LC members as we do. You attribute it to "free grace" errors which came from "dispensational circles" such as those loosely connected with Darby. As a passive, entitled, 2nd generation, know-it-all, who has recently come of age, I believe your views are quite different from many of us, at least for me.

I jumped into the LC in Cleveland headlong in 1976. After my first meeting, I stayed the whole weekend at the "farm house" on the church property. I soon moved in with Norm M. and his family, attending morning watch every morning and some meeting or service every night. Many of us preached the gospel regularly, if not every day. No one could say that I (or others) enjoyed some "easy-believism," which you are constantly assigning to us.

In those days, we nearly made no decisions on our own. Everything we did was surrounded by much prayer, fasting, and fellowship with the brothers. Twice I totally uprooted my life to join a migration to another city in order to start a new church from scratch. I seriously suffered much from outsiders because of my faith and the narrow way I was pursuing. Most ex-LC-members I know from the "old days" have similar experiences.

For you to come along and project your past life in the LC to ours is neither fair nor justified. I consider myself more like an aging, wounded veteran of foreign wars, wondering if the wars were even worthwhile. I constantly battle a life of discouragement and disappointment, all the while struggling to keep my love and faith fresh and new. This is why you are struggling so hard to convince us of your point of view. You are like a newly saved messianic Jew coming to us every day with the message that circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher are now meaningless. Who knew?

I do think, however, that you have a message for other second generation Christians. And I have taken to heart the message you have brought to the forum. I thank the Lord that you have found your "voice" in Christ. Take heed to your ministry from the Lord. That said, it is not the only message in the Bible. All men need to repent and believe, but Jesus did not use that same message with every person He met on earth. He knew the audience, and matched the message to them. Paul also said he was all things to all men.

And yes, you do add some very nice "color" to the forum.

Cal · 01-14-2014, 08:33 AM

bearbear,

You answered neither of the questions I asked in post #23.

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

bearbear,

You answered neither of the questions I asked in post #23.

Didn't I do this in post #32,34 and 37 ?

Cal · 01-14-2014, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Didn't I do this in post #32,34 and 37 ?

Not really. But never mind. I'll just say that if you interpret every warning in the Bible as a threat to be sent to hell, then I can see why you believe the way you do. But it is not necessary to do that. It's basically a stance motivated by deep fear and uncertainty. But, suit yourself.

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Not really. But never mind. I'll just say that if you interpret every warning in the Bible as a threat to be sent to hell, then I can see why you believe the way you do. But it is not necessary to do that. It's basically a stance motivated by deep fear and uncertainty. But, suit yourself.

In my own testimony, I've come to experience God's love in my fear of him. God never wants us to stay in a state of fear, it's just for our own good and a beginning. In God's mercy he's gradually replaced the fear I had for him with love. But without a fear of God to start with, there is no wisdom.

Psalms 147:11
but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

If there's anything I left out in my answers, please restate what I left out and I'll do my best to give my perspective.

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Not really. But never mind. I'll just say that if you interpret every warning in the Bible as a threat to be sent to hell, then I can see why you believe the way you do. But it is not necessary to do that. It's basically a stance motivated by deep fear and uncertainty. But, suit yourself.

Actually that's interesting you say this because of a recent event that happened to me. Since I know you guys are uncomfortable with charismatic stuff I haven't shared it, but here goes.

During a recent church conference for new members, which I procrastinated in attending (I have a phobia of trainings due to my past with LSM as you all can probably relate to) but was somewhat forced to go because of service in youth ministry, our church had a prophecy team come and pray and prophesy over everyone individually.

One of these brothers whom I've never met because he meets in a different ministry, prophesied over me.

He repeated a weird prayer and conversation I have with the Lord every morning and gave me the answer to it.

The prayer / conversation goes like this every morning:
I've been telling God to show me more of his love and if it were possible to give me assurance that I'm on the narrow path that leads to life. I also told the Lord I know he showed he loved me by answering so many of my prayers and caused supernatural things to happen in my walk with him that showed me he loved me. I knew that God loved me doctrinally, yet I couldn't bring myself to believe that he really loved me. I also pray everyday that he would prevent me from falling into the world again and to keep me walking in the faith until the end. The darkness of my past sometimes haunts me and my greatest fear is yielding to temptation and falling into the world again like Demas did.

So this guy basically repeats the prayer I have every morning word for word and gives me the answer. He also said I would be ministering to "depressed" people in 2014 and giving them words of encouragement.

I recorded the prophecy in chinese on my smartphone and had my wife translate since I could only understand half of it. Here's my wifes translation:

"God wants to tell you that he delights in you, you are the one I love. You are altogether lovely. I feel that God has shown you very clearly that you are altogether lovely. You don’t need to work hard to win his love for you, he is very satisfied by you. He sees you as a very beautiful one. I feel that God wants to use the word in Isaiah to tell you, your days of sadness have passed. God has never left you, he is always with you. I feel that He wants to use Jeremiah 31 to tell you you used to come with tears, but your love one, your God will lead you as you have asked to walk on the righteous path next to the stream. He will surely gift you with streams of living waters flowing abundantly in your home. You will walk in the path of righteousness along this stream. you will not ever fall again, because your love, the one leading you is the Father of Israel, he is your God. He has called you so he will look over you. He has anointed you. He has blessed your mouth to become a blessing to many others. in the year 2014, the Lord has brought those who are depressed to you, you will open your mouth to speak words of blessing to them to encourage and console them. you will extend your hand to heal them, because you are an anointed one, you are full of power, praise God. "

So God really convicted me then that I was so willing to have faith in heaven and hell, but I couldn't have faith that he really loved me and I was his child. This gave me so much peace. It's also opened me eyes to see that if God could love someone with a past like mine, he surely loves everyone else.

The assertion that I would never fall again is something I've been meditating on. It sure sounds Calvinist! But my church is Arminian hmm.. Here is my over-active doctrinal mind working again. Lord have mercy.

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 11:16 AM

double post

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear, I've been realizing lately that perhaps you don't have the same view of us ex-LC members as we do. You attribute it to "free grace" errors which came from "dispensational circles" such as those loosely connected with Darby. As a passive, entitled, 2nd generation, know-it-all, who has recently come of age, I believe your views are quite different from many of us, at least for me.

I jumped into the LC in Cleveland headlong in 1976. After my first meeting, I stayed the whole weekend at the "farm house" on the church property. I soon moved in with Norm M. and his family, attending morning watch every morning and some meeting or service every night. Many of us preached the gospel regularly, if not every day. No one could say that I (or others) enjoyed some "easy-believism," which you are constantly assigning to us.

In those days, we nearly made no decisions on our own. Everything we did was surrounded by much prayer, fasting, and fellowship with the brothers. Twice I totally uprooted my life to join a migration to another city in order to start a new church from scratch. I seriously suffered much from outsiders because of my faith and the narrow way I was pursuing. Most ex-LC-members I know from the "old days" have similar experiences.

For you to come along and project your past life in the LC to ours is neither fair nor justified. I consider myself more like an aging, wounded veteran of foreign wars, wondering if the wars were even worthwhile. I constantly battle a life of discouragement and disappointment, all the while struggling to keep my love and faith fresh and new. This is why you are struggling so hard to convince us of your point of view. You are like a newly saved messianic Jew coming to us every day with the message that circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher are now meaningless. Who knew?

I do think, however, that you have a message for other second generation Christians. And I have taken to heart the message you have brought to the forum. I thank the Lord that you have found your "voice" in Christ. Take heed to your ministry from the Lord. That said, it is not the only message in the Bible. All men need to repent and believe, but Jesus did not use that same message with every person He met on earth. He knew the audience, and matched the message to them. Paul also said he was all things to all men.

And yes, you do add some very nice "color" to the forum.

I agree, that's a good observation. My experience is also shaped by the fact that I was pretty involved in the LCs from 2005 to 2011 in the west coast. It's probably a wholly different experience than coming to know Jesus in the midwest LCs in the 1970s where the Holy Spirit was moving. From what I read, Witness Lee was less involved in those days and the problem seems to be that he became "more involved" later on.

I like how Leonard Ravenhill put it - You can have all your doctrines right but still miss the presence of God. Whether or not you have the Spirit of God is the most important thing.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to attribute easy-believism to everyone here, but I do believe it's what Witness Lee taught and he should be held responsible for it. And I still have to speak to the destruction I saw it cause especially among church kids (as I realize now). And if you thought I was entitled then, I would like you to introduce to you some of the young people I was serving here in the west coast

There's a reason I believe that many youth are leaving evangelical churches. When you take your salvation for granted, it's easy to fall into many pitfalls like exalting doctrines which don't really matter such as one church in one city, or God's economy or political issues above the love of Jesus. It can also become easy to be tempted by the enemy and leave our first love by returning to loving the world. While it's easy for us to judge the younger generation, we also have to realize this world has become much more scary in its ability to steal their hearts away for things like video games, facebook and other lusts of the flesh that have become more alluring with technological advances.

If you already believe you've obtained eternal life but haven't developed intimacy with Jesus, you really don't stand a chance growing up in this world today.

Ohio · 01-14-2014, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I'm sorry I didn't mean to attribute easy-believism to everyone here, but I do believe it's what Witness Lee taught and he should be held responsible for it.

Witness Lee's teachings about overcomers placed us all under a bondage of never being able to do enough to please God. Coupled with his exclusive views about the Recovery, we also believed that every effort we expend in serving God must be directed towards building up his ministry and churches. All other service was a waste of time and not pleasing to the Lord.

I don't think that the second generation in the LC's got this teaching of "easy-believism" directly from Witness Lee. Perhaps I am wrong. It seems to me that a passive youth culture inevitably developed as a result of promoting Witness Lee and his ministry rather than Jesus Christ and His word.

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee's teachings about overcomers placed us all under a bondage of never being able to do enough to please God. Coupled with his exclusive views about the Recovery, we also believed that every effort we expend in serving God must be directed towards building up his ministry and churches. All other service was a waste of time and not pleasing to the Lord.

I don't think that the second generation in the LC's got this teaching of "easy-believism" directly from Witness Lee. Perhaps I am wrong. It seems to me that a passive youth culture inevitably developed as a result of promoting Witness Lee and his ministry rather than Jesus Christ and His word.

From my understanding, it's this passive culture that is preventing many from being truly born again. My understanding of scriptures and my own personal experience is that you don't become born again after acknowledging Jesus' existence as a deity who died for our sins, but after you surrender your whole heart to God in repentance.

I agree Witness Lee severely misrepresented what it means to overcome and it seems like him and others abused it to make people loyal to his ministry. John taught that overcoming is simply being born again by which we receive a new heart and new spirit from God.

1 John 5:4
"For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."

Ohio · 01-14-2014, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

From my understanding, it's this passive culture that is preventing many from being truly born again.

Do I think the culture I grew up in was any less passive? It was a sexual revolution of new found liberties and casting off long accepted social mores, without the fear of some 35 known STD's. Alcohol was more than prevalent ... without the limitations of DUI's. Drugs were everywhere, and they were cheap. You could smoke cigarettes anywhere you wanted, even on airplanes.

awareness · 01-14-2014, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"easy-believism"

There was nothing easy in the local church. I eventually developed a consistent knot in my stomach from trying so hard. Seemed I couldn't give enough to Christ and the church. I was, in fact, working out my salvation. Easy-believism wasn't part of the local church when I was in it.

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

There was nothing easy in the local church. I eventually developed a consistent knot in my stomach from trying so hard. Seemed I couldn't give enough to Christ and the church. I was, in fact, working out my salvation. Easy-believism wasn't part of the local church when I was in it.

From my own experience I thought I was living a life pleasing to God in the LC because I had "works". I was attending Lord's day, Friday night and prayer meetings and serving youth on and off. However my heart was really for the world. My goal in life was to make money quickly so I could play video games for the rest of my life. Yet I knew and accepted that Jesus was real, so I still convinced myself that I had to be involved because I didn't want to end up in that 1000 year dark closet.

It wasn't until I left and fully surrendered my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ that I believe I became born again and a new creation. I could have stayed in the LCs all my life and lived in this deception, missing out on the beginning of a new transformation.

awareness · 01-14-2014, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear, I've been realizing lately that perhaps you don't have the same view of us ex-LC members as we do. You attribute it to "free grace" errors which came from "dispensational circles" such as those loosely connected with Darby. As a passive, entitled, 2nd generation, know-it-all, who has recently come of age, I believe your views are quite different from many of us, at least for me.

I jumped into the LC in Cleveland headlong in 1976. After my first meeting, I stayed the whole weekend at the "farm house" on the church property. I soon moved in with Norm M. and his family, attending morning watch every morning and some meeting or service every night. Many of us preached the gospel regularly, if not every day. No one could say that I (or others) enjoyed some "easy-believism," which you are constantly assigning to us.

In those days, we nearly made no decisions on our own. Everything we did was surrounded by much prayer, fasting, and fellowship with the brothers. Twice I totally uprooted my life to join a migration to another city in order to start a new church from scratch. I seriously suffered much from outsiders because of my faith and the narrow way I was pursuing. Most ex-LC-members I know from the "old days" have similar experiences.

For you to come along and project your past life in the LC to ours is neither fair nor justified. I consider myself more like an aging, wounded veteran of foreign wars, wondering if the wars were even worthwhile. I constantly battle a life of discouragement and disappointment, all the while struggling to keep my love and faith fresh and new. This is why you are struggling so hard to convince us of your point of view. You are like a newly saved messianic Jew coming to us every day with the message that circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher are now meaningless. Who knew?

I do think, however, that you have a message for other second generation Christians. And I have taken to heart the message you have brought to the forum. I thank the Lord that you have found your "voice" in Christ. Take heed to your ministry from the Lord. That said, it is not the only message in the Bible. All men need to repent and believe, but Jesus did not use that same message with every person He met on earth. He knew the audience, and matched the message to them. Paul also said he was all things to all men.

And yes, you do add some very nice "color" to the forum.

Great post Ohio ....

We all came up differently. I was raised, for example. in the Southern Baptist church. Before I could read the Bible I was taught it was the word of God. Before I was saved (at 8 yrs old) I was taught once saved always saved.

Now I'm being told that I may not have been saved and am going to lake of fire.

I learned on my own about the Calvinism/Arminianism debate. bearbear is telling me nothing new.

But I settled the matter. I figure if I abide in God I have nothing to worry about.

He can make my bed in hell ... and He will be there.

Lisbon · 01-14-2014, 08:41 AM

At 83 I appreciate almost everything I read on this forum. I am not enough of a theologian to even understand all that is written but. My wife and I were raised for 30 years in the Assemblies of God and of course they are Armenian. We both switched to the other side somewhere along the way. Our teaching was such that you could be a believer for 40 years and just before the end someone throws a rotten banana in your face, you curse, and thereby go to hell. Believe me I have heard this sort of thing spoken. Where is the eternal life of John 3? If you live with the constant fear of either living a good life and going to heaven or being like most of us and certainly going to hell, what a living. On his death bed, David told Solomon to kill Joab. That has never set well with me, but the Lord quite clearly tells us he will make it.

My senior year in college was dreadful. After makingall A's and B's for three years, I worried all year long about making a C in P chem. In fact two days before graduation I went to the prophessor an asked him if I made it. His answer was, Oh buddy you know you made it. That was a miserable year. If I had to live like that.... The same is somewhat true to me in the Christian life. I don't have any confidence that WL, WN, or anyone else can put all the NT together and come to an inteligent conclusion. I strongly believe the Bible is a speaking word and if it speaks to us and we hear it is life. But if we pull a WL know it all and try to live by him, we are not thnking, we're hoping.
lisbon

bearbear · 01-14-2014, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisbon

At 83 I appreciate almost everything I read on this forum. I am not enough of a theologian to even understand all that is written but. My wife and I were raised for 30 years in the Assemblies of God and of course they are Armenian. We both switched to the other side somewhere along the way. Our teaching was such that you could be a believer for 40 years and just before the end someone throws a rotten banana in your face, you curse, and thereby go to hell. Believe me I have heard this sort of thing spoken. Where is the eternal life of John 3? If you live with the constant fear of either living a good life and going to heaven or being like most of us and certainly going to hell, what a living. On his death bed, David told Solomon to kill Joab. That has never set well with me, but the Lord quite clearly tells us he will make it.

Wow that is amazing you are 83 and still going strong and browsing this forum! God bless you! I've never grown up in Arminianism but I can see how it can be easily abused to judge people. I'm thankful that although my church adheres to this, they are a lot more loving then I am and discourage judging at all costs. But I lean towards Calvinism and 1 John is probably the strongest proof text for this.

Regarding John 3:16 the verb used for believe is in the present continuous tense so one has to remain in this "pisteuo" (which is better translated as trusting or committing oneself to Jesus). Many translations say "shall" or "would" not perish but have eternal life, but if you do a careful Greek word study the correct translation is "should" which would imply possibility.

So read in the Greek the verse would say something like "that whoever continually trusts and commits himself to Him should not perish but have eternal life". This reading is consistent with the later verse 36:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

01-12-2014, 07:11 AM	#1
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? I've been realizing lately that many of those leaving the LCs have a damaged idea of who God is and end up knowingly or unknowingly blaming and mistrusting Jesus when the anger should really be directed towards Satan and the deception he wrought in Witness Lee's life and teaching. I believe we can recognize who is behind good fruit and bad fruit based on John 10:10. Satan comes to kill steal and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly. I believe Witness Lee seriously misrepresented who Jesus was in the way he lived and taught, and this has done incredible damage to the reputation and person of Jesus among those who really invested and poured out their lives into the LRC. One of the ten commandments is to not take the Lord's name in vain. To me this goes beyond using God's name as a swear word- and extends to those who carry the label of being a "Christian" or even more, a minister, pastor or other leader in the Christian church. Those who claim to follow Christ can either glorify or shame God's name based on how they live their lives. Warnings about wrongly slandering God's name via an unrepentant sinful lifestyle is found throughout scripture. I'll put some references I can think of at the top of my head here: "For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”" - Romans 2:24 ".. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake" - Psalm 23:3 "Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered" - 2 Peter 2:2 With this introduction I'd like to do a quick bible study of 2 Peter 2 in the New Living Translation and relate how it connects with many accounts of Witness Lee's life and teachings in this forum. Also when I mention Witness Lee please note that I'm also trying to expose the spirit that was deceiving him, and not necessarily his person. Our war is not against flesh and blood but the satanic spirits and principalities and powers of the air.

01-12-2014, 07:51 AM	#4
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? 2 Peter 2:12 "These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed." Witness Lee scoffed at a lot of biblical teaching found in "Christianity". There are too many to name here so I'll just point out one. He laughed at the conventionally accepted view of the trinity as three distinct persons who are not each other, but are God and therefore one. He insisted that his own preposterous view was the correct one-- in which Jesus became the Holy Spirit and the whole Triune God had to go through a process and become flesh. 13 "Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals." With little apology, in regards to the DayStar debacle, Witness Lee said "the saints lost their virginity" - e.g. he had raped them spiritually and financially and they should have expected it. Does this sound like words that would come from a man of God? or someone who is being influenced by evil spirits? He shamelessly covered up his own son's sexual immorality and defended them even when he admitted what they were doing was wrong to John Ingalls and many others. He did all this shamelessly while eating with the same people he was sinning against in LRC's love feasts. 14 "They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God's curse." Many reported Witness Lee becoming altogether a different person when he would come and do his pitch for DayStar. It sounds like he was possessed by a spirit of greed who manifested himself whenever WLee obeyed this lust. Not only did he lead many otherwise honest saints into sin via depression and anger when the whole DayStar debacle blew up, but he also tempted everyone under him with sycophantic tendencies to sin by selling out the righteous co-workers such as John So, John Ingalls et al. in order to bring themselves up in the LSM hierarchy.

01-12-2014, 08:09 AM	#5
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? 2 Peter 2:15-16 They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. Balaam was torn between serving God and money. He ultimately chose money to his own destruction when he taught Balak how to tempt the children of Israel to worship idols and commit sexual immorality. Witness Lee may have genuinely been torn between serving God and money via DayStar. He ultimately chose the latter based on his actions (money laundering, selling out the saints who lost their investments etc). Witness Lee may have taught some good biblical things, but so did Balaam when he blessed the Israelites, but look where he ended up in the end. Jesus taught us to judge a tree by its fruit. It's evident from this analysis that Witness Lee's tree bore bad fruit, therefore he should not be thought of as someone who represents God and bears his name. In John 14, Jesus clearly lays out two conditions for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. First is that we must obey God and the second is we must love Him. When someone lives in unrepentant sin it shows that they neither love or obey God, hence they do not have the Holy Spirit in them and cannot be considered a good tree. The source of the bad tree is Satan himself, therefore he deserves the blame for the sad history of the LRC and not Jesus, our precious Saviour who laid up his life for us. Sorry if I sounded really harsh on Witness Lee, and I'm open to correction if I have not been accurate with this assessment. I would also try to encourage all of us including myself to let all the bitterness go and forgive everyone who hurt us, looking at the Author and Perfecter of our faith in all of this. My point is in trying to expose the works of Satan so that God's name would not be associated with Witness Lee's works. Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

01-12-2014, 11:54 PM	#8
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? Acts 20:29 I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock. A sign of a false shepherd is that he is more than willing to slaughter his own sheep to save his own life. This fairly describes what happened to John So, John Ingalls et al who were thrown under the bus when they confronted witness lee. Jesus showed an example of what a true shepherd would do by laying down his life for the sheep, the exact opposite of the work of a false shepherd. Satan always turns things upside down.

01-12-2014, 08:35 AM	#9
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? I've summarized everything in a blog post here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-of-false.html

01-12-2014, 07:26 AM	#2
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? 2 Peter 2 New Living Translation (NLT) The Danger of False Teachers Verse 1: "But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves." Commentary: Many of you may disagree but let me just speak from a Lordship Salvation adherent's point of view. Witness Lee taught that we shouldn't worry about whether something is good or bad, but whether or not it has God. This sounds biblical, but it overrides commands in many scriptures throughout the OT and NT which tell us to pay attention to righteousness and to live holy lives (eg Romans 6, Ezekiel 18, James, Titus, 1 2 Timothy etc.). Furthermore he distorted the biblical definition of good fruit (recruiting more LSM adherents) and bad fruit (being disloyal to the ministry). The NT clearly teaches that good fruit are works born of the Holy Spirit (love, joy, peace, kindness etc.) and bad fruit are works of the flesh (greed, sexual immorality etc.). Because the NT teaches that every tree that does not bear good fruit is cast down and burned (Matthew 7:19, Luke 3:9), I believe the value system he set in place is destructive and leading many of his followers to hell whether or not they think they are saved and believe in Jesus. Another one is easy-believism. Witness Lee taught you are saved once you simply say "O Lord Jesus!" regardless of the condition of your heart and knowledge of the gospel. This teaching only encourages false converts to think they are saved of which I may have been one for over twenty years of my life. http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html does an excellent analysis of this: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say "O Lord" three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, "O Lord, O Lord." Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they have the intention or not, as long as they open the window, the air will get in. It is not a matter of teaching; it is a matter of touching the seven Spirits of God." Witness Lee, Stream Magazine, Vlll: l, Feb l, 1970, 6. I was recently at a gospel meeting when one was sharing about a story of a man in China who used to ride his bike around and simply call out "O Lord Jesus" and tried to get other people - who had no knowledge of Christ to do the same so that by doing so they would be saved, having "called on the name of the Lord." Ac 2:21 "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." In this phrase they take "calling on the name" out of context, not considering the figure of speech being used. But they should have realized their error if they simply read Romans 10 Romans 10:13,14 "for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" To call on someone's name is not simply to mouth the words, as they advocate. One must first know the person. In reality what happens in such conversions is that a person is given the phrase "O Lord Jesus", and then sticks it on whatever idol the person has built in their own mind of what a "Jesus" is, rather than conforming their definition of Christ to the Bible. (But then again I find similar practices quite common in other evangelical churches too) Secondly in teaching unbelievers to say "O Lord" they are teaching people to lie. To call Jesus "Lord" without the intention of doing what he said, that is to practice lying. Jesus said,"Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?"Luke 6:46 According to Jesus what he thinks calling him "Lord" means is that, perhaps among other things, you are agreeing to to what he said. In fact there are perhaps many Christians who likewise are lying, not having the right to call Jesus "Lord", as allegedly "believing in Christ" but without the intention of doing what he said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sure many of you can think of other destructive heresies Witness Lee taught, but these are two that come to mind.

01-12-2014, 07:40 AM	#3
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? 2 Peter 2:2a "Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality." The Blended Brothers who are carrying the mantle of Witness Lee's teaching and living shamelessly lie and slander folks like Steve Issit and others who have brought to light the history of their iniquity. 2b "And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered." Many who leave the LRC end up disowning their Christian faith altogether because of LSM's misrepresentation of what Christian fruit should look like. 3 "In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed." Witness Lee shamelessly solicited investments and donations for DayStar and he made false promises that the investments would be solid because they had the Lord's annointing. In his recorded phone conversation with Sal Benoit, Witness Lee showed that he clearly knew what he was doing by setting up the money laundering operation via Phosphorus which ensured he would never lose money at the expense of the saints who poured their life savings into his operation

01-12-2014, 05:45 PM	#10
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? I wanted to add that I can speak of this from experience. My Dad once preached the gospel to his brothers, my uncles. They received the gospel and got baptized some twenty to thirty years ago. It wasn't less than a year later that they all fell away. The reason was one of my aunt in laws was some kind of relative in law of Witness Lee. She was privy to a lot of the immorality that was openly being practiced. Witnessing this kind of fruit being produced by a so-called Christian leader stumbled her and all my Uncles to stray away from the faith. To add insult to injury, they probably think they are saved because they believed in Jesus once due to the teachings on free grace.

01-12-2014, 06:39 PM	#11
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22 Directed more towards the blending brothers. They knew the way of righteousness, but turned away. My point of reference is from Speaking the Truth in Love. Benson Phillips and Ray Graver knew of the office immorality yet considered it to be a local matter. Upon coming together we attempted amid protests to mention the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. They steadfastly refused to hear about it, but we proceeded to speak. Ray Graver then quickly rose and exited the room. Benson (in whose home we were meeting) also rose to register his displeasure. We felt that they had knowledge relevant to the matter and wanted to confer with them about it. Benson admitted that the same sister from the LSM office (mentioned previously) had come to him in Taipei to disclose a related event, but he strongly protested our bringing this matter before them. They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. Some time later, however, I apologized to Benson and Ray for this, feeling that if they chose not to hear, we should not have forced the issue. Page 24 On page 12 the author refers to "misconduct and irregeularities" Dan Towle had heard of. "Dan had also heard some things concerning misconduct and irregularities related to the ministry office that greatly upset him, and he had serious concerns as we did for the Lord’s recovery. At one point he told me that he considered to resign from the work and to leave. We confirmed his feeling that the situation was indeed serious. Godfred, Dan, and I came together a few times, joined also by Ken Unger on a couple of occasions to fellowship about the situation and what should be done. Ken Unger, who was an elder in Huntington Beach, had himself also become very concerned. We conferred about our burden to speak with Brother Lee, mentioning a number of our concerns that involved aberrations of truth and practice. When we touched the matter of the full-time training in Taipei, Dan responded by saying that if you touch the FTTT, you touch Brother Lee himself, and according to his observation of Brother Lee’s practice, Brother Lee will consider you if you become in his eyes a problem, and then he will proceed to carry out his burden without you. Godfred confirmed this by saying that he had the same realization, that Brother Lee considers anyone who criticizes him a troublemaker and will consider whether or not that one is expendable. This was indeed a most serious consideration concerning Brother Lee. But we did not care to maintain any position or standing for ourselves. We felt that for the Lord’s sake and for the sake of all the brothers and sisters, we must open our hearts to Brother Lee, no matter what it cost us. "

01-14-2014, 08:33 AM	#13
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? bearbear, You answered neither of the questions I asked in post #23.

01-14-2014, 11:16 AM	#18
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? double post

01-14-2014, 08:41 AM	#26
Lisbon Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 117	Re: Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee? At 83 I appreciate almost everything I read on this forum. I am not enough of a theologian to even understand all that is written but. My wife and I were raised for 30 years in the Assemblies of God and of course they are Armenian. We both switched to the other side somewhere along the way. Our teaching was such that you could be a believer for 40 years and just before the end someone throws a rotten banana in your face, you curse, and thereby go to hell. Believe me I have heard this sort of thing spoken. Where is the eternal life of John 3? If you live with the constant fear of either living a good life and going to heaven or being like most of us and certainly going to hell, what a living. On his death bed, David told Solomon to kill Joab. That has never set well with me, but the Lord quite clearly tells us he will make it. My senior year in college was dreadful. After makingall A's and B's for three years, I worried all year long about making a C in P chem. In fact two days before graduation I went to the prophessor an asked him if I made it. His answer was, Oh buddy you know you made it. That was a miserable year. If I had to live like that.... The same is somewhat true to me in the Christian life. I don't have any confidence that WL, WN, or anyone else can put all the NT together and come to an inteligent conclusion. I strongly believe the Bible is a speaking word and if it speaks to us and we hear it is life. But if we pull a WL know it all and try to live by him, we are not thnking, we're hoping. lisbon