Hubris

[Chris Fleming]

In some messages past, Mr Kangas has told the story about a group of sisters long ago in Anaheim who apparently made quite a show of themselves. Believed themselves to be above everyone else and ever wrote a book dedicated to "those who are alive and remain", implying that they will be raptured away and will leave their book to help everyone else.

I've heard it said explicitly in messages as well as to my face by some elders that they believe people will be reading LSM Life Studies during the great tribulation. Not only this, I was told that Witness Lee spoke on this and went even further (this was not recorded in the Life Study). He believed that when the Bible says the woman will be nourished in the wilderness, he took that to literally mean that Christians going through the great tribulation will be nourished by his Life Studies. People from LSM by implication are obviously not there and have been whisked away.

So what's the difference?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

In some messages past, Mr Kangas has told the story about a group of sisters long ago in Anaheim who apparently made quite a show of themselves. Believed themselves to be above everyone else and ever wrote a book dedicated to "those who are alive and remain", implying that they will be raptured away and will leave their book to help everyone else.

I wonder when it was he last read the bible. Those who are alive & remain are not remaining . DUH.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yeah... I know...he was probably trying to be funny. Tongue in cheek uh - huh.

I've heard it said explicitly in messages as well as to my face by some elders that they believe people will be reading LSM Life Studies during the great tribulation.

Well. Won't they be in for a RUDE awakening! Thus saith the LORD:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

Not only this, I was told that Witness Lee spoke on this and went even further (this was not recorded in the Life Study). He believed that when the Bible says the woman will be nourished in the wilderness, he took that to literally mean that Christians going through the great tribulation will be nourished by his Life Studies.

I remember someone telling me we were going to be taking our life studies to the New Jerusalem or something like that.

Bur really now. For someone who supposedly read the Bible 50 times, he became blinder & blinder as well as DEAF to the Holy Spirit.

To the LC/LSM lurkers:
The woman going into the wilderness spoken of in Revelation 12:6 is ISRAEL. She is fleeing to Petra, Jordan. Stop reading Lee's idiotic commentaries!! Get a real bible, read it. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding & to bless You with the TRUTH.

People from LSM by implication are obviously not there and have been whisked away.

Yeah... to the thousand year outer darkness, Lee purported....along w/his books & 'life studies'.

May the Lord truly have mercy on those people who are 'alive' in the trenches of the LSM.

[Chris Fleming]

I mean, lets keep it real. Maybe some Christians going through the great tribulation will get help from his Life Studies. Who knows? Maybe a lot will. But to say, and worse, teach that a certain part of the Bible is talking about HIM and his works, wow son that's crazy. And to see the stars in the eyes of the elders who told me this...I really have no words to describe it. This is the same in-group vs out-group cultyness that plagues Christianity that has to stop. Sad to say, I fear that A LOT of LSM people will be right there along side everyone else when the trib hits the fan...

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I mean, lets keep it real. Maybe some Christians going through the great tribulation will get help from his Life Studies. Who knows? Maybe a lot will. But to say, and worse, teach that a certain part of the Bible is talking about HIM and his works, wow son that's crazy. And to see the stars in the eyes of the elders who told me this...I really have no words to describe it. This is the same in-group vs out-group cultyness that plagues Christianity that has to stop. Sad to say, I fear that A LOT of LSM people will be right there along side everyone else when the trib hits the fan...

Sure there may be some biblical truths in the life studies but there is also way too much leaven for any new Christian to handle or discern away. As a youth counselor, if any of my youth came across a life study I would seriously advise them to burn it. Jesus taught us a little leaven leavens the whole.. e.g. even 1% of a lie can grow to ruin 99% of the truth. That's why we have to run away from leaven until we build our discernment through the Holy Spirit and instead go straight to the word of God asking the One Teacher to teach us whenever we have questions. From my experience, Father God has answered every single one of my questions whenever I was confused about scripture - and always in a way that touches me personally that no life study or commentary could ever fulfill.

The early church did fine even without the New Testament. All they needed was its original author, the Holy Spirit who revealed to them to truths the OT were pointing to. They were lead to revelation on how the Jesus was the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the Messiah and how he fulfilled the 1. ceremonial law (Christ and the Holy Spirit fulfilled the first four of the seven feasts, the three other feasts are fulfilled in Revelation and Isaiah at his second coming), 2. sacrificial law (all the animal sacrifices pointed to the real sacrifice of the Messiah) and 3. moral laws (fulfilled by the Holy Spirit living in us and guiding us. As long as we follow the Spirit we are not under condemnation - Romans 8). If you have this foundational understanding, you could do pretty well without the NT, because the NT is the OT revealed (though I wouldn't recommend that of course)! The OT is pretty awesome once you realize that God is the same yesterday today and forever.

If you compare the Local Churches today to how the early Christians lived in Acts it's hard to even recognize any similarities. The sad thing is back in the 50s and 60s it actually did resemble the early church in acts, but Satan always tries to take a good thing and destroy it, which he does when church leaders yield to temptations like selfish ambition and don't repent - grieving the Holy Spirit and driving him to find good earth elsewhere.

My Grandma used to tell me really interesting stories of the early LCs, you can check out my blog post here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-lee-were.html

The underground churches in China and elsewhere who are on fire for God are also a good picture of what a healthy church looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgm4O3uCdZ0

If you read Revelation 3 again you may realize as I did that Philadelphia could actually be the heavily persecuted underground churches who are so poor and oppressed that they don't even have full bibles. Jesus commends them for not denying his name, something that could only be a badge of honor in a country like Iran, Saudia Arabia or North Korea where Christianity is banned. If that's true, this may put the rest of us in Laodicea - ouch.

Here's a serious though hilarious sermon by Francis Chan on how American Cultural Christianity (a system he admits he is a part of) has diverted so much from the word of God. Your life may never be the same after watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWSmcR4Dxdg

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Christ and the Holy Spirit fulfilled the first four of the seven feasts, the three other feasts are fulfilled in Revelation and Isaiah at his second coming

My wife and I were at "Breakforth Canada" the year before last (this is a Christian missionary conference, dozens of speakers (including Francis Chan) are there. Anyway, we sat in for a series of lectures given by Joe Amaral on this very topic (quoted) above: Jesus in the Feasts. It was eye-opening, because frankly it's something I've never heard discussed ever before. Christians here in North America, and I dare say even in China, seem to have forgotten the basic context of Scripture; as divine revelation to God's people, Israel. The general consensus in churches today seems to be that since God offered salvation to the gentiles, we have nothing more to learn from the Hebrews He first called. I think that's more than unfortunate, it's heart breaking. In rejecting the context of Scripture, we have not only lost understanding, but even misunderstood so much of what Christ said and did. We NEED context.

Anyway, I read this quote of yours and I thought of that.... have you read any of Joe Amaral's books (IE: Understanding Jesus?) We brought the "Jesus in the Feasts" video to our Bible Study, and it seems to have spread around town with a number of small groups ordering it in. A worthwhile study indeed!

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

My wife and I were at "Breakforth Canada" the year before last (this is a Christian missionary conference, dozens of speakers (including Francis Chan) are there. Anyway, we sat in for a series of lectures given by Joe Amaral on this very topic (quoted) above: Jesus in the Feasts. It was eye-opening, because frankly it's something I've never heard discussed ever before. Christians here in North America, and I dare say even in China, seem to have forgotten the basic context of Scripture; as divine revelation to God's people, Israel. The general consensus in churches today seems to be that since God offered salvation to the gentiles, we have nothing more to learn from the Hebrews He first called. I think that's more than unfortunate, it's heart breaking. In rejecting the context of Scripture, we have not only lost understanding, but even misunderstood so much of what Christ said and did. We NEED context.

Anyway, I read this quote of yours and I thought of that.... have you read any of Joe Amaral's books (IE: Understanding Jesus?) We brought the "Jesus in the Feasts" video to our Bible Study, and it seems to have spread around town with a number of small groups ordering it in. A worthwhile study indeed!

Cool I'll check him out, thanks for the tip. My favorite guy right now for Hebraic understanding of the scriptures is Perry Stone. I also love this brother because you can tell he is hilariously crazy for God and he can't help it. If you watch him preach enough it can't help but rub off on you. Interestingly enough his view on eschatology is pretty similar to Watchman Nee, Hudson Taylor etc. who adhered to a multiple harvest or staged rapture of the church.

His revelation how well the Jewish wedding fits with how Jesus related to his bride, the church also blew my mind away. For example the bride and bridegroom would drink a cup of wine every week after their engagement as a symbol of their faithfulness to each other until the day of the wedding (when the bridegroom would come to pick up the bride at a day or hour she did not know to bring her to his father's house where he has prepared a room for her-- sound familiar?).

So when we take communion, it's not just a ritual of remembrance, but it's a symbol of our promised faithfulness to Jesus our bridegroom who bought us with the bride price of his life.

Here's his sermon about the Jewish wedding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTlBtTMKGlk

and how the Jewish Wedding reveals the pre-trib rapture of the bride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5HYXNF7xg

Another good guy for Hebraic understanding is Mark Biltz who came up with the revelation of the blood moon tetrad that has transformed the biblical prophecy community.

I also really like Sid Roth, a messianic Jew's perspective of the feast days in his book (The Incomplete Church: Unifying God's Children).

He makes a good point that God never said his feasts are for Israel, but that they were "God's feasts". The Hebrew word for feasts is moed which means appointed time. It's interesting that the spring feasts + pentecost were fulfilled on the exact days of their feasts-- suggesting that the fall feasts will be fulfilled on their appointed days during Jesus' second coming-- very interesting!

Also Isaiah says that during the Messiah' millenial kingdom all the nations are forced to celebrate Tabernacles (if they don't they don't get rain). It's interesting to realize that Christmas may not be celebrated in the millenium, but instead -- the feast days! (Also there's a lot of evidence that Jesus' real birthday was Tabernacles-- six months after John the Baptists birthday on Passover-- amazing if true!) If anything since the fall feasts are not yet fulfilled, Christians should remember them because they point to the hope of our day of redemption. Furthermore, If they're going to be celebrated in the millennium by all nations why not celebrate them now?

Francis Chan is one of my favorite speakers, but he is so honest sometimes it's depressing. I remember after reading his two books "Crazy Love" and "Forgotten God" I'd just be so depressed feeling I couldn't measure up to the standard the bible set-- similar to how Jesus' disciples probably felt after he told him how narrow the way was that led to eternal life. It did make me more desperate and hungry for God though, so Hallelujah for that. I'm looking forward to him speak at IHOP's one thing conference which will take place in two days:

http://www.ihopkc.org/onething/

[countmeworthy]

NFNL wrote

we sat in for a series of lectures given by Joe Amaral on this very topic (quoted) above: Jesus in the Feasts. It was eye-opening, because frankly it's something I've never heard discussed ever before. Christians here in North America, and I dare say even in China, seem to have forgotten the basic context of Scripture; as divine revelation to God's people, Israel. The general consensus in churches today seems to be that since God offered salvation to the gentiles, we have nothing more to learn from the Hebrews He first called. I think that's more than unfortunate, it's heart breaking. In rejecting the context of Scripture, we have not only lost understanding, but even misunderstood so much of what Christ said and did. We NEED context.

Now That's what "I am talking about"! I have taken an interest in the Jewish aspect of the bible for some time now. Somehow the 'church' as a whole has forgotten the bible is not solely addressed to the converted gentile. In fact most the NT of it imho was addressed to the converted Jews.

We gentiles Believers are blessed to have the revelation Jesus is Messiah. He is King of the JEWS, King of ISRAEL and KING of kings/LORD of lords.

When I began to see the Lord speaking to the Jews in the Gospels & in Hebrews in particular, WOW, my spiritual eyes began to open anew.

Lee to my knowledge never saw this & thus neither does his flock.

Originally Posted by bearbear

My favorite guy right now for Hebraic understanding of the scriptures is Perry Stone.

I love it when he teaches from Israel.

Interestingly enough his view on eschatology is pretty similar to Watchman Nee, Hudson Taylor etc. who adhered to a multiple harvest or staged rapture of the church.

The scriptures are pretty clear describing multiple raptures:
1) Enoch
2) Elijah (2 kings 2)
3) Our Lord Jesus at His Ascension, breaking the laws of gravity I might add.
4) The Blood washed believers at the Shout, the Voice of the Archangel & the Trumpet of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
5) The 144,000 Evangelizing Jews who have the Seal of God (Revelation 14:3)
6) The 2 witnesses who are killed & lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem only to rise up 3 1/2 days later and be raptured up. Revelation 11:12

the Jewish wedding fits with how Jesus related to his bride, the church also blew my mind away. For example the bride and bridegroom would drink a cup of wine every week after their engagement as a symbol of their faithfulness to each other until the day of the wedding (when the bridegroom would come to pick up the bride at a day or hour she did not know to bring her to his father's house where he has prepared a room for her-- sound familiar?).

Yep! yep! YEP!!

So when we take communion, it's not just a ritual of remembrance, but it's a symbol of our promised faithfulness to Jesus our Bridegroom who bought us with the bride price of His life.

I had forgotten that. Thanks for jarring my memory. I have been having communion every day because when we eat & drink, we proclaim His death until He comes. (1 Corinthinians 11:26

Another good guy for Hebraic understanding is Mark Biltz who came up with the revelation of the blood moon tetrad that has transformed the biblical prophecy community.

John Hagee expounds on Mark's teaching while giving credit to Mark. Just you tube John Hagee 4 blood moons.

(Blood moons are Lunar eclipses. When the scriptures say immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, it is referring to a lunar eclipse. A red crown from the sun is seen around the moon, thus the 'blood' moon.

I also really like Sid Roth, a messianic Jew's perspective of the feast days in his book (The Incomplete Church: Unifying God's Children).

Also the book "one new man". Sometimes I like his shows, sometimes I don't. He is better to listen to in person than on his show imho)

He makes a good point that God never said his feasts are for Israel, but that they were "God's feasts".

Yep. The feasts of the LORD are found in Levitcus 23. Did not learn about them in the LC for sure!
1) Passover
2) Feast of Unleavened bread
3) Feast of Firstfruits
4) Sheaf Wave offering for 50 days (type of Pentecost)
5Feast of Trumpets
6)Feast of Atonement
7)Feast of Tabernacles

Perry Stone's teachings on the feasts are awesome! Really brings the scriptures to LIFE!

The Hebrew word for feasts is moed which means appointed time. It's interesting that the spring feasts + pentecost were fulfilled on the exact days of their feasts-- suggesting that the fall feasts will be fulfilled on their appointed days during Jesus' second coming-- very interesting!

That is why a lot of believers are looking at the fall feasts for the Lord to return, in particular Feast of Trumpets 'cause in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, we hear the TRUMPET of God. It is also the only Feast the Jews do not know the day or the hour the feast begins! They have to wait to see the sliver of the moon in Jerusalem before they declare officially the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Ha Shanna) has started.

So far...nothing .

Great STUFF NFNL & bear-bear!!
Thanks for sharing !!!!

Carol