Excommunicated!

[Chris Fleming]

Hello everyone!

I've known about this forum for some time, somethings I agree with, somethings not, but one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved and are rightfully called saints. Not just the spiritual snobs who believe they have a monopoly on that word.

I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

My point of being on here is not a crusaded to get people to leave their church (some people who know me have approached ME to tell me that they are seriously thinking of leaving) however I do feel the need to work through this and tell it straight, bluntly and matter-of-factly for the record, because there is some serious things wrong in what was said to me. I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, yet there is a lot of things left to be desired, probably like most places...but most other places would at least admit that.

I'm using my real name, as that is how I do things online, and also because if I am going to name names I think it's only fair if I'm using my own as well. This is not a criticism to anyone else, just what I'm doing.

When I have a little more time I'll speak more about my whole experience there, but mainly what I have to say now is that I love the Lord, He is working in ALL of us who love Him and while I like the set up of the LSM churches, the Lord is doing mighty works in so many other people and places, most of whom have never even heard of LSM...and is going on in me and my life personally. So from the outset I'd like to say that while I am not against their church, their writings are a load of crap when they say it is not possible to leave their church and go on with the Lord.

Thank you for listening.

--Chris

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

If that's all it takes, then half the saints I know would have been excommunicated.

Oh wait a minute . . . 3/4ths of us already got quarantined!


Welcome to the forum, Chris.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

How absurd is that ?..even from them!! I know there are people who have gotten married to LC people, divorced them and remarried LC people AND have remained in good standing.

I'm using my real name, as that is how I do things online, and also because if I am going to name names I think it's only fair if I'm using my own as well. This is not a criticism to anyone else, just what I'm doing.

Good for you Chris! I use this moniker because it is a reminder to myself I pray I would be accounted worthy to rule and reign with Christ our beloved King. Everyone has their own reasons for remaining anonymous. Some have family to close for comfort. So they prefer to keep their real names private.

Looking forward to hearing from someone who was once who was in the 'locality that was supposed to be the "role model" the rest of the LCs should emulate...or something like that.

Thanks for sharing some of your experience.

Many blessings to you,

Carol Garza

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

...but mainly what I have to say now is that I love the Lord, He is working in ALL of us who love Him and while I like the set up of the LSM churches, the Lord is doing mighty works in so many other people and places, most of whom have never even heard of LSM...and is going on in me and my life personally. So from the outset I'd like to say that while I am not against their church, their writings are a load of crap when they say it is not possible to leave their church and go on with the Lord.

This is a great realization and experience and explodes the myth propagated by the LSM that you can only be sanctified in their church, if you leave their church God's divine retribution will rain down upon you, they are God's special people, blah, blah, blah. A "load of crap" is a great description of this kind of prattle!

[Chris Fleming]

Thank you all for the warm reception. Reminds me of a memory:

A good friend of mine from my hometown of Pgh PA and dear (non LSM) brother once said to me that the Lord will put you in the church that He wants you to be in at that time. I agreed with him then and all the more so now.

It's funny--my friend was in town and stayed with me for a couple weeks so naturally we went to the table meetings. It just so happens that a bunch of the favored church kids just got back from some gospel trips to some surrounding TX cities. The thing is, in a lot of these small cities like Abilene, you're more likely to knock on the door of a Christian than a non-believer.

When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more". No, it wasn't enough to meet a fellow Christian and have some prayer and fellowship, these people were lost, didn't know what they were doing and needed some 20 something year old kid to tell them where they ought to be meeting. I don't despise youth but I'll talk more about this kind of thing later--it was just so arrogant without them even knowing how they sounded.

To be fair, I had several experiences like that myself back in my college days from others outside of LSM. While walking to class I would be accosted by some wacky Christian (or otherwise) group and when I would say I was a believer, the grilling would start. Do you believe in this doctrine, do you believe in that doctrine. Any "wrong" answer and I obviously wasn't saved. They couldn't just say Amen brother, isn't the Lord wonderful?

But that little LSM experience is typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

But that little LSM experience is typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

I remember one time (~2004) a young sister visited our college gathering. She was busting out of her skimpy summer clothing, but she could rattle off just how bad the whole of Christianity was.

I didn't stay too much longer in the program. Her testimony always confirmed to me just how far off we were.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more". No, it wasn't enough to meet a fellow Christian and have some prayer and fellowship, ...typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

Romans 14:1 says, "Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions." NASB

In the local churches we were highly trained to pass judgment on everyone's opinions (except, of course, "our brother", who was God's oracle). Several years after leaving the local church system, I slowly began to learn to receive Christian believers just as God brought them to me, without passing judgment on their opinions.

Paul also said in Romans 15:7 (NIV) to "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." Now, how did Christ accept us, I wonder? According to my memory, I wasn't in the best of shape, but Christ accepted me, anyway. Shouldn't we likewise accept those around us? Why lay down some doctrinal or organizational "ground" as the necessary basis of "sweet fellowship"? Christ didn't do that with us; why should we do it with others?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I don't despise youth but I'll talk more about this kind of thing later--it was just so arrogant without them even knowing how they sounded.

It wasn't until the mid-90's I become conscious of the arrogant attitude. In the last decade, the arrogance became much more transparent.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

A good friend of mine ... once said to me that the Lord will put you in the church that He wants you to be in at that time. I agreed with him then and all the more so now.

This is a great and perceptive statement. It is easy to laugh at Peter in the gospels, but really Peter's many failures are just stand-ins for our own. Peter didn't make more mistakes than the other disciples, or than we the Bible readers, it is just that Peter's mistakes were so well-documented! And yet Jesus was pleased to lead Peter, mistakes and all. And as we learn from mistakes, we can help others who also suffer. "When you turn, you will strengthen the brothers." (Luke 22:32)

Satan wants us to look back in bitterness, anger, sorrow, and shame. God wants us to look back in gratitude, and press forward to the goal, ever confident that in spite of our many failures, "His will be done, on earth as in heaven."

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more".

That was totally me. Growing up in the church life I was brainwashed into thinking we "know" so much more than the other Christians. I look back with shame and embarrassment. Still can't get over it today. It has humbled me tremendously. I definitely don't feel like that anymore.

I can't blame those kids. They have been taught so from youth. They know nothing else. The LSM system is to blame for this. Until you step back from the system...stop meeting with them for a few months, you won't see what kind of mindset you have. That was what opened my eyes - kind of like Plato's cave story. You *think* you ARE God's only and true church because you haven't seen anything else. You have been told what "Christianity" is but you never saw it yourself. You've never met any loving believer outside of your local church community. So you automatically believe what you are taught - that you know more than them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

I can't blame those kids. They have been taught so from youth. They know nothing else. The LSM system is to blame for this. Until you step back from the system...stop meeting with them for a few months, you won't see what kind of mindset you have. That was what opened my eyes - kind of like Plato's cave story. You *think* you ARE God's only and true church because you haven't seen anything else. You have been told what "Christianity" is but you never saw it yourself. You've never met any loving believer outside of your local church community. So you automatically believe what you are taught - that you know more than them.

You have just competently described the origins of Laodicea.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Truth
I can't blame those kids. They have been taught so from youth. They know nothing else. The LSM system is to blame for this. Until you step back from the system...stop meeting with them for a few months, you won't see what kind of mindset you have. That was what opened my eyes - kind of like Plato's cave story. You *think* you ARE God's only and true church because you haven't seen anything else. You have been told what "Christianity" is but you never saw it yourself. You've never met any loving believer outside of your local church community. So you automatically believe what you are taught - that you know more than them.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have just competently described the origins of Laodicea.

More like a description of Ephesus w/a sprinkling of Thyatira Ohio. Ephesis lost her first love.
Here is the warning from the Lord:
Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Here is what the Lord says about Thyatira:
she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Furthermore:
The LSM is quick to point out the speck in their brothers' eye but do not even notice the LOG in their own. (Matthew 7:3)

Hmmmm...

And a warning to them (as well as all believers of Christ) from Ephesians 4:6

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In the case of the LSM, they are more worried about offending the church and their founders than grieving the Holy Spirit a far more serious offense and something they ought to worry about !!

In recapping:
--They criticize Christians outside of their denomination thus not noticing the LOG in their own beliefs.

--Their idols are Nee & Lee. They have not repented for making Nee/Lee and their system their god.

--They are not afraid of grieving the Holy Spirit of God, a most serious offense.

--They do not heed to the warning given to 5 of the 7 churches: If they do not repent, God will take away their lampstand (their Light), will throw that church of believers on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts;

Almighty God -Jesus Christ- also says this to Sardis:
‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. ...REPENT... [there's THAT word again!) He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Does that mean the LORD COULD ERASE or BLOT out our names from the book of Life??? I do not know but I am not taking my Salvation for granted !!!

And didn't someone recently say, the LC doesn't care about God's angels???

Hmmm..... WARNING!!! WARNING!!!

Blessings all,
Carol G

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

If it's based on you being previously divorced, I'd say hypocrisy is being practiced. I know divorced elders who went on to remarry sisters positive for the recovery. If excommunication is being practiced for a divorcee wanting to remarry, they should first begin to excommunicate those wanting to divorce their spouse in favor of one "more positive for the ministry". By all appearances, at times it seems the marriage covenant is not between the husband, wife, and God, but between husband, wife, and the LSM/LC.

[Chris Fleming]

So about getting excommunicated, perhaps I should start from the beginning. I'll have to write this out in a few parts.

Way back in the day I met an amazing woman who I fell in love with and married. I'm going to leave her name out of this, as she's had enough difficulties by me and this is about ME and how I was treated by the LC anyway. So I was young, mature in some ways but immature in others and she had some SERIOUS *issues* with her past and how she had been living for quite some time (she herself had been married before, getting remarried to me wasn't a problem because she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there. lets just keep it at that) but we were together and we more or less worked through things.

It's too long of a story to tell like this but even prior to meeting her, I got a recovery version Bible back when I was in college. Thus marked the beginning of a long journey towards the Lord and Him arranging very many things which lead us moving to Austin TX. I firmly believe that the Lord brought us together and it was His will that we eventually move to Austin. I have no regrets and in fact can't picture things differently. All things work for our good.

There were always problems with us, the relationship was rocky but real love was there. As it became clear that we were moving to Austin, we came under some SEVERE spiritual attack one after the other; our relationship was never the same after that.

The church life itself was a stress, before we even moved my ex was getting emails from people in Austin who remembered that she was married once before, DEMANDING to know what happened. This, mind you, was independent of the elders there, who like I said had no issues with her or us. Needless to say it affected her. I didn't understand it at the time when she said that this would happen, but sure enough it did. So I had a bad taste in my mouth before I even got there. I was wondering, what kind of place am I going to?

My reaction to the church life didn't help things. I found them to be very odd. All Christians are weird to some extent LOL but it was hard getting used to. The shouting, the strange tone of voice people slip into, the CONSTANT push for moving to other countries, the rather feminine character of the men there...it was all foreign to me. To be fair, a lot of my hang ups were of my own making, and slowly over time the Lord opened me up to being able to sing with others and to not be so defensive.

People who know me know that I am usually serious, or at least that I LOOK like I'm serious or upset about something. It comes from my personality and it also comes from my cultural background. People who's ancestors descend from eastern Europe often look like they are pissed off. I can't help it. But when I go to a meeting, I am serious for God. I don't want to stand around and talk about your job or my job and then *switch* when the meeting starts. Never really understood how people can be like that. Probably happens everywhere but still...

My grumblings about the church life took its toll on my then-wife. That coupled with the rest of our problems did us in. We fought A LOT, especially once in Ausin. It would start with me being upset about something or her being upset about something, and would end with her comparing me to one of her many past relationships. Being a highly intelligent person, she was, on the negative side, extremely manipulative and cruel. Not one to be out done, I argued back just the same. I couldn't stand the constant comparisons to other men, and it was driving me insane. She decided to separate from me in 2009 and live in her own place, AND live as a divorced woman.

None of that was the LC's fault, but what I have gone on to see is some REAL Christian teachings on marriage. I sought fellowship with the elders here and to my recollection, not even ONCE did anyone tell me that my wife and I need to stop and read the Bible together. I was listening to a preacher talk about this kind of thing and said that he always asks couples, "do you pray together? do you read the Bible together? No? Well no wonder you're having problems!". That's real Bible based advice.

The elders asked me about my own Bible reading but that's the extent of it, if memory serves. One of the elders, Cary Ard, was once at my place talking to me. The fellowship wasn't bad, it was good until he said one thing that blew me away. God is my witness on this--he told me that the Bible does not allow divorce but it does allow separation! The Bible actually says the complete opposite thing regarding separation. I couldn't believe it, he was actually trying to use the apostle Paul's teaching on a husband and wife separating from each other for a time to seek the Lord privately for MY situation. Completely insane and abuse of the Bible. For what reason he said this is beyond me, but damage done.

It was at that point that I realized I could no longer talk to him about spiritual things. He's not a bad guy, to this day I'm not upset--he's the one who baptized me and always sounded on-point otherwise. I could just tell that he wanted to be elsewhere. It's like I could see that he would rather be talking to some college freshmen instead. Y'all know Austin is HUGE on that. I mean ok fine, that's his gift and focus, not "community saints" like me. Oh how I HATE that phrase, "community saint", BTW. I just don't understand how an ELDER could use the Bible like that.

End of part 1

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

None of that was the LC's fault, but what I have gone on to see is some REAL Christian teachings on marriage. I sought fellowship with the elders here and to my recollection, not even ONCE did anyone tell me that my wife and I need to stop and read the Bible together. I was listening to a preacher talk about this kind of thing and said that he always asks couples, "do you pray together? do you read the Bible together? No? Well no wonder you're having problems!". That's real Bible based advice.

After about 30 years in the LC's, I left in 2005, and we started visiting a community church not far from our new home. It was basically my first steps outside the fold where I spent nearly all of my Christian life. Right away I noticed the emphasis on marriage and family. After being there a short while, one day I had this stark realization -- all the leading brothers I knew in the LC's could spend the rest of their lives in meetings, and not one would learn a thing about counseling married couples.

Not one of them had a clue what to do or to say to a couple in trouble, yet not one of them even realized that. Of course there was a rare exception, but by and large, this was true. Years ago, I went through a serious marriage crisis, and the absolute worst advice I got was from Titus Chu. The local church leadership basically had a ancient Chinese cultural mindset on marriage. That would never work in the US. It never helped me, and it obviously did not help any one else, since so many marriages were either struggling or falling apart.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Way back in the day I met an amazing woman who I fell in love with and married... I was young, mature in some ways but immature in others and she had some SERIOUS *issues* with her past and how she had been living for quite some time (she herself had been married before, getting remarried to me wasn't a problem because she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there...

I'm not sure this is the place to raise this subject, but I'll try anyway. Let's assume we all want a Bible-based church. Now, how about Titus 1:6 "An elder must live a blameless life. He must be faithful to his wife, and his children must be believers who don't have a reputation for being wild or rebellious." (NLT)

Now if this very big name elder in Texas has a child (your ex-wife) with what you call serious issues, what are we to think? How "biblical" is that church, really? For that matter, what about the issue of women being silent in the church? (1 Cor 14:34). What about 'sisters' covering their heads for the sake of the angels? (1 Cor 11:10)

I am not saying we should read these verses literally or not. What I am saying is two things. First, the "Little Flock" of Nee and its spin-off the "Lord's recovery" of Lee both tried to be literalists, but really they interpreted the scriptures according to whatever was most convenient at the time. In this alone they did not sin, but simultaneously judging "Christianity" for doing the same thing was hypocritical.

Secondly, I left the "Lord's recovery" movement and went into an even more strict movement. Anyone who had been divorced was not allowed full participation, but was in a kind of "observer" status. Women couldn't speak in the meetings. And so forth. Everything, I mean everything, was taken literally. Thankfully, they didn't criticize "Christianity" for not following their practices, but I did find one thing in common with the Lee church: "Group think" totally dominated the congregation. Nobody wanted to think or do anything independently. Everything had already been "thought out" for them.

I think there's a danger in focusing on the "letter" of the Bible and ignoring the "Spirit" of the Bible. Then, the only "leading of the Spirit" allowed is "whatever Brother X says". God forbid you should be seen as being independent. So the ability of the Spirit to lead people, and to open up God's word, is quite circumscribed.

I remember one of my 'elders' in my Lee church group telling me that he followed the 'senior elder' without question. Even if the senior elder did something ridiculous, the junior elder would follow without hesitation or question. And we, by inference, were supposed to follow the junior elder. I saw this in practice, especially when the 'co-workers' arrived from Anaheim, and told the 'senior elder' what to do and teach, and it really did quench the Spirit. Then it was just, "Do what you are told. Instruction (sorry, 'fellowship') has arrived from the Maximum Leader."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there. lets just keep it at that)

This explains a lot. I have read of numerous other cases where LC leaders sent members away to hush the event and protect the family of leaders.

It sounds like the elders in Austin had to choose between her and you, and guess what happened?

[Cal]

I don't mean to trivialize anything, because I know this is painful for you, Chris. But, trust me on this, there many churches in Austin where you will get a lot better care, understanding and shepherding than you got in the LC. Omigosh, what an embarrassment your experience would be for any halfway-serious church leader around the city! To the LC it's just business as usual.

Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

John Myer also has a few things to say about that...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

To the LC it's just business as usual.

To be partial is a character trait many LC leaders exhibit. When there's a known quantity of a person, the tendency is to take what they say at face value. Even more when an elder or co-worker is involved. Soley the measure of respect and name recognition an elder/co-worker has gives him credit while most brothers and sisters aren't even given the benefit of the doubt.

[Chris Fleming]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

Brother you aint kidding.


Love the shark analogy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUuH4TEmgLo

[Chris Fleming]

So as we last left off, it was 2009, my then-wife started living with some other saints (and eventually got her own apartment) and I learned from an elder that the Bible allows for separation.

She, to her credit, wanted to go to "Christian-based" marriage counseling, as even she knew that there would be no help found in LSM churches.

Just as a side note regarding divorce, I don't remember which one it was but I once read a Witness Lee book where he said that he can testify that there is NO DIVORCE in the church life. Really had to laugh at that one even when I was in the LC, as all kinds of people that I knew there, including my then-wife were in fact divorced. Some of the first people that I met there were divorced.

The counseling was O-K-A-Y, I mean, the guy was a real believer but it was entirely psychology-based with some Bible verses thrown in, like from 2 Corinthians talking about the God of all comfort who would comfort us and so forth. I was put off by him thinking that he knew me better than I knew myself after taking his personality test. The main thing his business taught were some communication skills like how to listen and apologize....which is good I suppose but once again Christianity as a whole was letting me down. I have to be fair, it wasn't just LSM. A slap upside my head and some direction to read and pray together would have been better.

At the end of it however, it looked like we had a real break through--I heard her and understood what was hurting her and she heard me and understood what was hurting me. We reconnected and began the healing process.

That didn't last long as some days later things were just bothering me, I was still negative towards her, a big part of me wanted to move on. Not that I would divorce her, I just didn't feel right. I was wrong to entertain those thoughts but I guess even that was for the best, since it was at that point that she informed me that she had been seeing someone, a brother in the LSM church, and said that if she wanted to continue to see him she would.

Any ground gained in counseling was now completely destroyed.

I don't know what the extent of their relationship was, but regardless, they were seeing each other, she still being married--that is just something you don't do. She would later tell me that women never cheat without a reason so it was actually my fault.

I wanted to hurt the guy; he was someone I was close to. Extremely upset with her as well.

Rather than following the Bible exactly I skipped over the previous steps and went right to the tell-it-to-the-church phase. At least I was smart enough to know that a felony on my record and prison time was nothing to be desired.

So I told them.

They didn't care.

I'm serious. Since Cary Ard was still the only elder I really knew there, I tried telling him about it and he didn't want to talk about it. He may have said something to my ex but from what I understand it wasn't anything substantial. He more or less wanted to focus on the marriage, I guess...but once again my mind was blown. Church kid or not, famous father or not, that's not how you handle things. The LSM policy is hear no evil, speak no evil. I understand from this forum that they have a history of this. Haven't gone too deep into that but knowing this history put their actions into more of a context. Problem in the church? Just make it go away. Ignore it, ignore it, ignore it.

Austin itself is mainly focused on attracting college freshmen to attend their meetings and eventually go to the training and then serving....where? back on the campus of course. I'm not against their training or their campus work, it's just that it became VERY clear to me that THAT is what Austin LC is all about and there isn't much of a place for you if you're not on board. They are looking for cookie-cutter kids who all pretty much act the same and follow the same "career" path in the LC as outlined above.

I was stuck in that LC limbo of being too old now to matter--didn't go to the training, didn't have kids of my own to bring up in the career path, wasn't serving on campus (i wouldn't have been allowed either, as i didn't go to the training), marriage in shambles so I couldn't have a home meeting for college freshmen to attend, was *that guy* with the problems, and so forth. Was and forever permanently in that despised underclass of

Community.

Saint.


End of part 2

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Hello everyone!
I've known about this forum for some time, somethings I agree with, somethings not, but one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved and are rightfully called saints. Not just the spiritual snobs who believe they have a monopoly on that word.

Hi Chris,
I am following your journey. But the words in your first post ring of Psalm 91:14-16

Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him securely on high, because he has known My Name

15 When he calls to Me, I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will rescue him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
and show him My Salvation.”

Because you love Him, He will deliver you. Because you know His Name, GOD, EL-SHADDAI will set you securely on high. (That is HIS WORD and HIS Promise to you !) Another Name for Jesus is SALVATION.

You wrote:

one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved

In vs 14 the Lord saith " I will protect him, because he knows MY NAME.
15 When he calls to Me, I will answer him;

(I have been going over the Names of God btw)

One observation I have made about the LSM, is they stopped teaching about repentance eons ago. I suppose if they do not repent themselves to GOD and to those they have trespassed against, then they can't teach on repentance now, can they?


In my first year in the LC (1975), our church elders went through a series of mini conferences on such topics as 'The Blood of Jesus" and "the power of Repentance".

(Btw, there were also marriage conferences exclusive to married couples back then.) I do not know if these conferences "The Blood of Jesus, Repentance and Marriage" were a Lee directive or if our church leaders (San Diego) took it upon themselves to have these conferences. The main elder who held these mini conferences used to be a Baptist minister who left the denomination for the LC. He has long left the LC himself. He left in the mid 80s.

They helped me a lot and have continued to make a positive impact on my life. (all except the marriage part..as I have remained single. :-D )

So if Nee could not humble himself and repent and neither could Lee..then it is no wonder the LC people cannot bring themselves to repent either. Believe me 'enjoying the Lord' like they teach is not going to hold water when they stand before the Son of Man.

David wrote in Psalm 51:10
"Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your Presence. Do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.....a broken and a contrite heart, Thou will not despise." (And Lee claimed that the Psalms were not good enough. What a deceived human being he ended up being. Hopefully he REPENTED on his death bed.)

Is it no wonder the Anointing and Presence of God is no longer in the LC as a whole? Is it no wonder so many people in the LC are screwed up spiritually and emotionally?

Here is what Amos 5:22-23 says:

Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings.
23 “Take away from Me the noise of your songs;
I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.

May the Lord have mercy on His church.

Blessings all,
Carol g

[Chris Fleming]

So at this point I wasn't really attending meetings. I always found them boring and strange, especially with all the screaming.

LOL pray-reading would make me crack up. Keep in mind, I'm not against this at all. It's just that it always sounded more to me like prayer-repeating rather than prayer-reading. When I first got to Austin there must have been a training on 1st John--people were walking around saying, "THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH!" I was like, what the hell...

Anyway, I would go to a table meeting or "open" video training meeting once in a while and then be gone for like 6 months or more. I once asked one of the elders what home meetings there were, since I lost mine (the saints who sided with my ex and got involved in our business would be awkward to meet with). The elders said they would help me find a home meeting but never did.

I never stopped reading the Bible of course. Also read LSM books like their Life Studies, which I think are good. After some time, I was invited to a home meeting which ended up being a great place, and a place that slowly nourished me back to life. I was reading and praying with others again. Learned how to sing with others as well. That might not be a problem for most but for me I had never been the singing type. Now I think its great and important.

I will always be grateful to that family who took me in and showed me the best of the church life for a few years.

End of part 3

[Chris Fleming]

It was at this time that I had a major spiritual awakening. This was real and LSM can never take that away from me.

In prayer one night I was essentially crying out to the Lord, asking and even somewhat demanding that He come in and be life to me. And He did! It was amazing! The Lord did something, whatever He does and how He does it, to give me the grace, mercy and power to be able to let go of just SO MUCH anger and pain. I had the forgiving power to no longer be angry at the man who was going out with my wife, to no longer be angry at the saints who were encouraging my estranged wife to look for jobs in other cities, and to let go of many other things like that.

Previously I thought I could forgive but after a time the same old feelings would come back. This time was for real and I know it is solid because this has remained to this day.

Praise Him for His wonderful life, mercy and power!

Meetings became enjoyable now. I was able to attend each week and look forward to doing so. I liked being with everyone now and had a growing hunger for the church life--it must have been that church life "honeymoon" that I had heard about but never had previously. I shared often in the meetings and wanted more. Still didn't entirely know how I was going to fit in there in terms of some kind of service, but I was sure that it would be manifested to me.

Life was opening up to me; everything just looked brighter.

My then-wife officially filed for divorce--one of the last things she said to me was that she wanted "the freedom to see other people". Now I'm not the smartest but I think we all know that when a person says something like that they usually have someone in mind. Don't know for sure, but I don't care either. That was enough for me to hear. Didn't want any more pain.

I spoke to a different elder in Austin, Tym Seay. He was recommended to me as a dear brother, of course, and a good man who you could talk to. Previously I would see him around all of the time but never had the opportunity to speak to him.

I had been keeping him updated with my marriage situation, including the finality of it. After some time had past, I told him that I wanted to go on in the church life, and God is my witness on this, I told him that whenever the Lord leads and allows I want to find a sister, have a family and just do whatever I am supposed to do there. I was not vague in anything at all. He was all smiles and Amen-ing. So all was well, or so I thought.

In the course of more time, I met this cute girl in a home meeting, we began to talk A LOT...and I'm sure you all can figure out where this was heading.

It was at that point that they wanted to talk to us...

I was still married to my ex, in their eyes. And, all of a sudden Tym was completely amnesiac as to our former conversation regarding me wanting to go on and get (re)married at some point.

The situation was clear in my eyes yet they wanted some kind of proof. Other than my ex getting remarried herself, I'm not sure what kind of proof they expected. I asked them somewhat jokingly, what do you want? Dirty sheets? Youtube clibs? Eventually her and I ended things with respect mutually--that was another grace and mercy from the Lord--but her words were clear. I personally did not want to find out who she was seeing or who she wanted the "freedom" to see. She's had a hard enough life, I guess, and I am happy to step out of the way and go on with mine. The choice was made for me anyway--I just had to realize that I needed to STOP killing myself and wake up to life.

I asked the elders (at this point he brought Neal Wolfson to sit in with him) what he expected me to do if such acceptable "proof" never comes. Did they honestly expect me to remain single for the rest of my life? They didn't have any direct answers save for and I quote, "...it would be hard...".

So they really did just want the problem to go away and for me to be *that brother* there sitting by himself in the meetings, getting creepier and creepier each year. There are guys like that in their church--dudes who have gotten divorced and you can tell that they are at the point that they would love to jump on almost any sister that crosses their line of vision. It's not normal to subject a man to that kind of life...and I definitely DO NOT have the gift to remain unmarried. Doing my own thing is cool for a while, to come and go as I please and care only for myself but I had been alone for years already.

Speaking of that, the elders asked me how long I had been divorced for. It had been several months, maybe 5 or 6 months that I had been officially divorced. They made light of that, saying that it wasn't that long, to which I explained AGAIN how prior to the divorce we had been separated for 3 1/2 years. That made Neal laugh a lot and compare that length of time to the great tribulation. How my situation was a joke to them is beyond me.

In any case, the situation was impossible for them, and their logic went full-retard. At one point, Tym said that they did not want me getting remarried because that would allow for everyone else to leave their wives because they were having difficulties.

That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure.

So they had an ultimatum--break up with my honey and wait to "see what happens" or "there will be....some restriction...".

End of part 4

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure.

So you basically need an affidavit from your ex to confirm that she has been "sleeping around," and then you will be set free?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

My then-wife officially filed for divorce--one of the last things she said to me was that she wanted "the freedom to see other people". Now I'm not the smartest but I think we all know that when a person says something like that they usually have someone in mind. Don't know for sure, but I don't care either. That was enough for me to hear. Didn't want any more pain.

I spoke to a different elder in Austin, Tym Seay. He was recommended to me as a dear brother, of course, and a good man who you could talk to. Previously I would see him around all of the time but never had the opportunity to speak to him.

I had been keeping him updated with my marriage situation, including the finality of it. After some time had past, I told him that I wanted to go on in the church life, and God is my witness on this, I told him that whenever the Lord leads and allows I want to find a sister, have a family and just do whatever I am supposed to do there. I was not vague in anything at all. He was all smiles and Amen-ing. So all was well, or so I thought.

In the course of more time, I met this cute girl in a home meeting, we began to talk A LOT...and I'm sure you all can figure out where this was heading.

It was at that point that they wanted to talk to us...

I was still married to my ex, in their eyes. And, all of a sudden Tym was completely amnesiac as to our former conversation regarding me wanting to go on and get (re)married at some point.

The situation was clear in my eyes yet they wanted some kind of proof. Other than my ex getting remarried herself, I'm not sure what kind of proof they expected. I asked them somewhat jokingly, what do you want? Dirty sheets? Youtube clibs? Eventually her and I ended things with respect mutually--that was another grace and mercy from the Lord--but her words were clear. I personally did not want to find out who she was seeing or who she wanted the "freedom" to see. She's had a hard enough life, I guess, and I am happy to step out of the way and go on with mine. The choice was made for me anyway--I just had to realize that I needed to STOP killing myself and wake up to life.

I asked the elders (at this point he brought Neal Wolfson to sit in with him) what he expected me to do if such acceptable "proof" never comes. Did they honestly expect me to remain single for the rest of my life? They didn't have any direct answers save for and I quote, "...it would be hard...".

So they really did just want the problem to go away and for me to be *that brother* there sitting by himself in the meetings, getting creepier and creepier each year. There are guys like that in their church--dudes who have gotten divorced and you can tell that they are at the point that they would love to jump on almost any sister that crosses their line of vision. It's not normal to subject a man to that kind of life...and I definitely DO NOT have the gift to remain unmarried. Doing my own thing is cool for a while, to come and go as I please and care only for myself but I had been alone for years already.

Speaking of that, the elders asked me how long I had been divorced for. It had been several months, maybe 5 or 6 months that I had been officially divorced. They made light of that, saying that it wasn't that long, to which I explained AGAIN how prior to the divorce we had been separated for 3 1/2 years. That made Neal laugh a lot and compare that length of time to the great tribulation. How my situation was a joke to them is beyond me.

In any case, the situation was impossible for them, and their logic went full-retard. At one point, Tym said that they did not want me getting remarried because that would allow for everyone else to leave their wives because they were having difficulties.

That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure.

So they had an ultimatum--break up with my honey and wait to "see what happens" or "there will be....some restriction...".

As I read your post there's a double-standard at play. Maybe your ex is handled with a touch of personal favoritism? Maybe they don't realize, this scenario had already transpired in Oklahoma City and who knows how many other localities.
IMHO, had you been considered "a good brother", you would have received the "free pass" to move on. You know what I mean by the free pass, "don't make an issue of things, matters, or persons".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

So at this point I wasn't really attending meetings. I always found them boring and strange, especially with all the screaming... pray-reading would make me crack up... it always sounded more to me like prayer-repeating rather than prayer-reading. When I first got to Austin there must have been a training on 1st John--people were walking around saying, "THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH!" I was like, what the hell....

The charismatic churches put up a barrier which you the newbie must cross before you are "in". You must overcome your shock and dismay that they are all bellowing like cattle and yourself "cry out and shout, Oh inhabitant of Zion" (Isa 12:6). So they show you a scripture which seems to direct you to act "crazy" like they are. In my case I was running back and forth in their "meeting hall", flapping my arms like a bird and shouting, and singing "PSRP/BNPB makes the eagle fly!" Of course I felt like an idiot. But they told me that I was "in spirit".

My point is that you can make someone swallow a whole lot of nonsense if you can get them to shout it with you. The nervous system gets stimulated and you (hopefully) feel a rush of euphoria. You stop thinking critically. Not for nothing this group is known in China as the "shouters".

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I was invited to a home meeting which ended up being a great place, and a place that slowly nourished me back to life. I was reading and praying with others again. Learned how to sing with others as well. That might not be a problem for most but for me I had never been the singing type. Now I think its great and important.

I will always be grateful to that family who took me in and showed me the best of the church life for a few years.

I am also grateful that I was a "shouter" for a few years. I got sober and got off the street. Got a job. It's all good.

I am even more grateful that one day I walked away, "back to Christianity". Today the Bible is much more meaningful to me. Instead of showing me the ground of the church, so-called, or God's New Testament Economy, so-called, or the vision of the age, so-called, or any number of other notions promulgated by one Witness Lee, today I believe that in the Bible "we see Jesus" (Heb 2:9). For example, in the Psalms we see Jesus, and not the concepts of David the sinner. We see Jesus. In Luke, in James, in Peter's epistles: Jesus. Deeper and deeper we go. Never stop; keep going. Into the word we go. The word begins to dwell in us richly.

Instead of seeing the notions of Lee in the Bible I am now seeing Jesus and that is something I am very grateful for. The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead now is speaking to us through these thousands-of-years-old words of text, and showing us something new. Are not our hearts burning, as the scriptures are opened? Lee said they were closed, they were dead. Pages and pages without footnote, or even cross-reference. Dead letters. But Witness Lee was wrong.

I am very grateful to have been freed from what I can only describe as "a system of errors". I saw man's ministry being elevated, while the revelation of Jesus Christ in the scriptures was suppressed. What lies ahead I don't know. But I know I got freed, and I'm grateful.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead now is speaking to us ... and showing us something new. Are not our hearts burning, as the scriptures are opened? Lee said they were closed, they were dead. Pages and pages without footnote, or even cross-reference. Dead letters. But Witness Lee was wrong.

The bolded part was a reference to the RecV Psalms. I know that some areas such as Ephesians are full of commentary. Some of it may be good, I don't know. But Paul wrote in Ephesians to "be filled in Spirit" by singing the Psalms, and in Colossians likewise ("that the word of Christ may dwell in you richly..."), but Lee told his local churchers not to bother. These scriptures were too "low", he said, and didn't match his "high peak revelation". So was Lee following the apostle here?

I just write this point as clarification. Someone may have read this and not understood what I was referencing (Probably there are other places besides the Psalms also ignored in the RecV. I'm just mentioning what I'm aware of).

Anyway, coming back to Chris Fleming's point, in Lee's local church we were to be "filled in spirit" by repetitively chanting not only scripture but also Lee's outlines, footnotes, song lyrics and slogans. "Let's all stand and loudly recite Banner #1!" This was our "charismatic" experience, and it was used to suppress our own God-given critical capacities. By making us semi-delirious, on demand ("Turn to your spirit, brother!") they dulled our ability to discern the spirits. Just get yourself stimulated, and then supposedly you are close to God's heart. Don't worry that the Bible is suppressed, ignored, and distorted.

[Chris Fleming]

In one of the last sit downs we had with the elders, Tym Seay began by telling me that he was reading the Bible earlier and came across a verse that reminded him of me. It was the part in Matthew 19:10 where the Lord is talking about marriage and the disciples respond with "it is better not to be married".

And then he literally stopped with that.

I mean, I had my girlfriend right there and everything. She's the innocent one caught up in all this. Here I thought I already communicated very clearly with the elders about my intentions to go on and be with someone when the time came, and Tym said "Amen". Now they talk like that in front of her with a word like that and many more. How do you think she felt? We were already very close and they were forcing us to choose between us and them, the whole group.

So I said, "but what about the rest of that section?", and I read the rest which says that not everyone has the gift to remain unmarried so let only him who can accept it live that way.

I was shocked because it happened AGAIN! In one of my posts above I talked about how another elder, Cary Ard, tried to manipulate the Bible into it saying what he wanted it to say about a wife separating from her husband, and here it happened AGAIN! They must really think I am stupid or that at least I don't read the Bible and rather just will accept anything they say about it.

It was at that point that it dawned on me that they just want me, like I talked about earlier, to be permanently single. That way they can act like there's no divorce in the church life. Problems problems, just go away. See no evil.

Tym accepted that it was good for me to point out the rest of that section and the full context of those verses.

Thankx.

I remember hearing a message from Big Daddy Kangas years ago when he talked about how in his days in the seminary he got to a point to where he said, "I do not trust these people with my soul!". I feel the same way now about the LC. They're not bad people at all just when it comes down to it, they will eat their own to preserve their outward appearances.

I hope people reading this can see my heart that I'm not bitter and upset at them, just at what they did and how they used the Bible. You have to cut the word straight. I'm not perfect but I'm not making exception for sin. Maybe they were right in wanting some kind of absolute "proof" that my ex wife has moved on in every sense of the word, but I never felt any life and peace with that kind of directive. I tried to tell them and they were happy to see me go on but inwardly they just wanted me to forever wait and "see what happens" (yes that's what they said). That would be a life of slow suicide. No thankx.

End of part 5

[bearbear]

Hi Chris,

I left the LCs a few years back and you can read my testimony in the other thread "Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation" if you're interested. I came to know that the bible doesn't teach free grace theology: the belief that you are assured salvation after profession of belief in Christ Jesus.

According to Wikipedia, the adherents of free grace theology in Christianity is a small subset:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Grace_theology

"Its prominent present-day expressions are the Grace Evangelical Society, the Free Grace Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the local churches. "

So we should do our homework to see if the bible really teaches this. You can see the Repentance thread I mentioned earlier for arguments why Jesus and the writers of the NT simply didn't adhere to this doctrine.

I agree most of everyone in the LCs have no idea what they're doing because they have strayed from God's word and I'm sorry for the hurt that was put on you.

However I am afraid for your salvation if you do remarry assuming that the original marriage did not break up due to sexual immorality. But don't take my words for it-- Here's an article I'd like you to read from John Piper- a true man of God and widely known and respected Christian pastor and author.

http://delightintruth.com/2013/04/22...-always-saved/

I've posted the text from this article below for others to read as well:

“Once saved, always saved” has become an evangelical cliché which grossly misrepresents the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has unfortunately been used by immature Christians and perhaps even unsaved “Christians” as a license to sin.

Here’s what John Piper has to say about the subject in his book Future Grace (via Delight in Truth friend Gabe Bogdan):

“A few years ago I spoke to a high school student body on how to fight lust. One of my points was called, “Ponder the eternal danger of lust.” I quoted the words of Jesus–that it’s better to go to heaven with one eye than to hell with two–and said to the students that their eternal destiny was at stake in what they did with their eyes and with the thoughts of their imagination…

After my message… one of the students… asked, “Are you saying then that a person can lose his salvation?”

…This is exactly the same response I got a few years ago when I confronted a man about the adultery he was living in…

I pled with him to return to his wife. Then I said, “You know, Jesus says that if you don’t fight this sin with the kind of seriousness that is willing to gouge out your own eye, you will go to hell”…

As a professing Christian he looked at me in utter disbelief, as though he had never heard anything like this in his life, and said, “You mean you think a person can lose his salvation?”

…So I have learned again and again from firsthand experience that there are many professing Christians who have a view of salvation that disconnects it from real life, and that nullifies the threats of the Bible, and puts the sinning person who claims to be a Christian beyond the reach of biblical warnings.

I believe this view of the Christian life is comforting thousands who are on the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13)…

The main concern of this book is to show that the battle against sin is a battle against unbelief. Or: the fight for purity is a fight for faith in future grace.

The great error that I am trying to explode is the error that says, “Faith in God is one thing and the fight for holiness is another thing… The battle for obedience is optional because only faith is necessary for final salvation.” (John Piper, Future Grace pg. 330-331 and 333)

It is a grave error to separate obedience to the Word from an initial conversion type event. Disobedience, lack of striving for holiness, and lack of perseverance in the faith may be indicative that the professing Christian is not saved.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by bearbear

RE.....John Piper- a true man of God and widely known and respected Christian pastor and author.

http://delightintruth.com/2013/04/22...-always-saved/

I've posted the text from this article below for others to read as well:

“Once saved, always saved” has become an evangelical cliché which grossly misrepresents the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has unfortunately been used by immature Christians and perhaps even unsaved “Christians” as a license to sin.

...It is a grave error to separate obedience to the Word from an initial conversion type event. Disobedience, lack of striving for holiness, and lack of perseverance in the faith may be indicative that the professing Christian is not saved.

Bearbear, John Piper's theology is quite a bit different and more complex than you seem to suggest here. John Piper is a Reformed Christian, and a devout 5-Point Calvinist - and if you're familiar with it, you know that one of Calvinism's main tenets is "Perseverance of the Saints" - or as some have stated it, "Once Saved, Always Saved". Salvation is a free gift of God, we don't earn it, we don't deserve it, and we don't have the strength to keep it. Salvation is ENTIRELY by the Grace of God, and it is this grace which he (Piper) advocates we live in, DAILY. I too am doing a study currently from his book, "Living in Future Grace".

I encourage you to listen to Piper's Sermons in defense and explanation of Calvinism. You can find them here: John Piper on TULIP (<-- Click on link).

....To what you are saying, regarding living in willful sin, that is something that Piper would say is evidence of a LACK of salvation (not a LOSS of salvation) - evidence that someone was never truly saved. (Jesus didn't say to the "workers of lawlessness" who cried to Him "Lord, Lord!" that he used to know them but hasn't heard from them lately. No, He says "I NEVER knew you".

...And we are not called to judge others. Christ, in fact, warns us against that on multiple occasions (Matthew 7:1-3, John 8:7, Romans 2:1-3, James 4:11-12) Rather, we are called to weigh the evidence and judge ourselves. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2nd Corinthians 13:5.

Listen to the series on Tulip, Bearbear - and be encouraged!


Your friend in Christ,

Ray

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

...And we are not called to judge others. Christ, in fact, warns us against that on multiple occasions (Matthew 7:1-3, John 8:7, Romans 2:1-3, James 4:11-12) Rather, we are called to weigh the evidence and judge ourselves. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2nd Corinthians 13:5.

Hi Ray,

Something I've come to learn is the difference between confronting someone's sin so they can repent and "judging". Judgment is declaring a final punishment on the way someone is living without mercy and the option of repentance. For example Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed for men to die once and then comes judgment. (after you die there's no chance to repent, so the only thing left is judgment which is final)

There are many instances in the bible (Galatians 6, Matthew 18, etc) where we are called to confront our brother's and sisters who are living in willful sin so they can repent and return to the narrow way that leads to life. It's done out of love and making sure they finish the Christian race with no intention of bringing shame onto them which only sinks them further. I'm more than willing to bring up my own past. I used to be addicted to porn, but I cried out to God to deliver me. He showed me how to overcome it through prayer, time spent in the word, confessing it to others (book of James) and holding every thought captive in obedience to Christ. Eventually the lust completely vanished though it was gradual process. I believe the desires of our flesh is like a monster that grows when we feed it. If we don't feed it, eventually it'll starve and die-- and we feed our spirit instead which gives us true satisfaction when we enjoy God's presence daily by praying and doing his will.

Also I'm something of an experimental TULIP Calvinist (OSAS after you die and find yourself in heaven) though I do believe there are tests we can perform on ourselves in 2 Peter and Galatians and elsewhere to see if we are walking in the faith. I do agree Jesus won't lose any that belong to him, but it's difficult to know if you really do belong to him except through our spirit and the Holy Spirit who testifies we are children of God. So it's best not to test God but to also willfully live our faith to the end while inviting God's grace in our life everyday through daily repentance and living according to the Spirit.

John Piper also talks about this here, telling Christians as Peter did to "confirm their calling and election" by striving for the faith: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-...-your-election

When I say "lose your salvation" - I am really referring to the parable of the sower, where the seeds that didn't land in the good earth perished later due to having no root or because they were choked by the thorns. The bible says these people actually believed for a while and even received God's word with joy! But whether these people "lost their salvation" or were "never saved to begin with" is more about semantics to me than anything. But for sure they never belonged to Jesus and were not chosen from the foundation of the world.

That said I agree with you about Jesus saying I never knew you. Another verse that confirms this is:

1 John 3:6
"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

That's what makes me lean towards Calvinism instead of Arminianism.

I wrote a little bit about this in my testimony at the end if you are interested:
http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

Sam

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Ray,

Something I've come to learn is the difference between confronting someone's sin so they can repent and "judging". Judgment is declaring a final punishment on the way someone is living without mercy and the option of repentance. ...There are many instances in the bible (Galatians 6, Matthew 18, etc) where we are called to confront our brother's and sisters who are living in willful sin so they can repent and return to the narrow way that leads to life.
Sam

This dialogue really belongs in another thread, and perhaps a moderator can move it back to your thread on taking the cross (or elsewhere), but I wanted to respond back with a quote to keep the conversation linear.

First, thank you for your considered response, Sam. I can agree that we are to help pick up the stumbled believer... Galatians 6:1 comes to mind with the admonition:

"Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself."

My concern when I hear "hellfire" preaching, however, is that it is only very rarely done in a spirit of gentleness and humility, and even when it is, it is done after making assumptions about another's spiritual condition. Assumption we can't and do not have the right to make. After all, God (we are told) judges the heart:

1 Samuel 16:7b "'Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.'"

& again,

Jeremiah 17:10 "But I, the LORD, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve."

Further, the aim of "hellfire" preaching seems to me to be that we human beings can reason someone into a faith they either don't have or into a walk that looks more godly to our eyes, but may or may not actually be godly (because we can't know men's hearts). Yes, we can judge a tree by it's fruit, but trees change with seasons and we only see in a single space and time called "right here" and "right now"; we don't know what has come before or will come afterward. In addition to that, the exhortation to judge a tree by it's fruit in the Bible is given about judging the teaching of those who would be spiritual leaders, NOT about judging fellow bond-slaves of Jesus Christ.

I have a dear friend who is battling with Arminianism. He really seems enamored by the story of the rich young ruler, and he ALWAYS goes back to it and says "See, unless you give up everything for Christ, you can't be Saved!!" - but that was not at all the point of that story. The point of that story is summed up at it's end; after the Disciples, looking on in incredulity and aghast at the implications of this young man's apparent fate cry out in despair "Who then can be Saved?!" It's summed up in Christ's answer to that forlorn cry:

But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God." Luke 18:27


I admit that The Lord can use your excoriation of a fellow believer, if He chooses to. However, without the Holy Spirit, your words will fall on deaf ears. Stephen could not have preached a more Godly Sermon to the Sanhedrin, and yet he saved not a one of them.

I believe (personally) your heart is right, Sam. I believe you are a brother in Christ and you long to serve your Lord. I praise God for giving you that heart for Him. At the same time, I can't help but feel that you need to be careful what you say and how you say it. Hellfire preaching can cause a believer to stumble, and you know what Christ said about those who cause a "little one" to stumble. Just be careful, brother... and keep in prayer.

Your friend in Christ,

Ray


PS: I agree that "Free Grace" theology, AKA "Easy-Believism" is a false teaching and a damnable heresy. Telling someone to say "Lord Jesus" three times, without them understanding who He is and what accepting Him as your "Lord" really means does nothing for them at all.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I believe (personally) your heart is right, Sam. I believe you are a brother in Christ and you long to serve your Lord. I praise God for giving you that heart for Him. At the same time, I can't help but feel that you need to be careful what you say and how you say it. Hellfire preaching can cause a believer to stumble, and you know what Christ said about those who cause a "little one" to stumble. Just be careful, brother... and keep in prayer.

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Actually if you look at the Greek for that verse, what Christ means by "stumble" is "causing to sin" which other translations also confirm (NLT, ESV etc). So to me this verse is saying we are in real trouble if we say round up a bunch of kids and introduce them to porn, defiling their once pure hearts which would have been their ticket to heaven. My favorite story of redemption regarding this is how Jesus had mercy on a kid whose Grandma taught him how to sell crack when he was 10 years old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbXeP...wN2mGr5ecfz2kl

Regarding using hell or fear of God as a motivator:

Jesus taught us to be fishers of men. I believe that was a wonderful picture because every fish has a different type of bait that it needs. This extends to the reality that God made everyone with a unique personality and a unique heart. The human heart is a mystery and we really need the Spirit of God to know how to reach each person individually. I think that's why Paul said prophecy is the best gift because it allows us to see into people's hearts to minister to them in a way that can impact their eternity for the better.

1 Cor 14:24-25
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you

So I definitely agree that there is a type of hellfire preaching that can scare all the fish away. Jesus told us he desires mercy and not sacrifice, and many of these preachers are not merciful at all.

However Jesus did spend 1/3 of his ministry preaching on hell for a good reason. He wants as many as possible to make it to heaven with him because the reality is there are too many temptations in the world that can ensnare us.

I love that verse too that with God all things are possible. We are hopeless without God's mercy and grace. One of my favorite verses is this one:

Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”.

The father wanted as much as he could to believe but he realized he was hopeless without God's grace so he asked for Jesus to help him. This to me is the real meaning of "call on the Lord and you'll be saved!". The context is we realize we are in a dire situation and we need to get out of it. However because of our flesh we are hopeless to rescue ourselves and in need of a Savior. That's when we call on Jesus to save us out of desperation because we used up all our lifelines. And he will *ALWAYS* faithfully respond to our cry of help and rescue us -- not once -- but to the end as we rely on and ask for his mercy and grace daily until we reach that door to eternal life.

That said my own testimony is that I came to love the Lord with all my heart due to the fear of being eternally damned after finding out free grace was not taught in the bible. I was just a fish swimming in the ocean who was caught by the "fear of God" bait. I knew I was in eternal danger because I had a porn addiction and many other false idols of the world I was worshipping with my heart. Because I was so ensnared, I instantly realized I couldn't deliver myself so I *fully surrendered* my life to Jesus and asked God for help. And hallelujah! he came through for me-- THANK YOU JESUS. My whole life I thought I was a born-again Christian because I "believed", but after I asked the Holy Spirit in my life from that day of true repentance, my life was totally never the same and I felt myself growing and having this insatiable hunger for the Lord everyday for the first time ever.

And God didn't let me stay in a state of fear, but in his love and mercy he faithfully turned the fear I had for him into love after he made known his own love for me in a personal and intimate way. It's in my testimony here:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

I believe fear of God is still *VERY* relevant in the new covenant. There's just not enough fear among most Christians in America today - which they show when they become lukewarm and love the world. Yesterday in the spirit of Christmas time, I read the story of Jesus' birth in Luke and came across this verse which Mary proclaims after her visit with Elizabeth:

Luke 1:50
And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.

God still wants us to fear him today for our own good. But he's faithful to "cast" out that fear with his perfect love (1 John 4:18) because God delights in those who fear him. Without fear people have zero wisdom because fear is the beginning of wisdom. Without wisdom there is no way to discern if we are walking on the narrow way to life or the broad way that leads to death.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I have a dear friend who is battling with Arminianism. He really seems enamored by the story of the rich young ruler, and he ALWAYS goes back to it and says "See, unless you give up everything for Christ, you can't be Saved!!" - but that was not at all the point of that story. The point of that story is summed up at it's end; after the Disciples, looking on in incredulity and aghast at the implications of this young man's apparent fate cry out in despair "Who then can be Saved?!" It's summed up in Christ's answer to that forlorn cry:
But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God." Luke 18:27

What I would minister to him is that he needs to experience God's rest. This reminds me of a very interesting conundrum in scripture that I asked the Lord for revelation and it was this:

1. Jesus tells us to make every effort to enter through the narrow way, because many will strive but not be able to enter. (Depressing ain't it? That's probably what your friend is afraid of)

2. Jesus calls to all those who are weary or heavy laden to come to him to find rest for their souls because his yoke is easy and his burden is light.

How can these two points exist together?

That's what I asked God and he gave me this verse:

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

In other words, Jesus is saying "make every effort to enter God's rest!". If we feel like we are struggling real hard to make something happen, we're doing it wrong. Instead we have to be like that father who said "I believe! Help my unbelief!". He was desperate and hungry for God's grace and realized the futility of self effort. When we call on God's grace for strength we are empowered by Christ who lives in us by which we can overcome every obstacle while experiencing rest. I like the picture of David casually slaying Goliath with a slingshot, I imagine him doing it with much grace and ease as the Spirit of God was upon him.

What I love about the bible is that there are tons of verses like these that seemingly contradict each other (another one is Eph 2:8-9 and James 2:24). But when you have the Spirit of God who guides us to all truth, you realize that they aren't contradicting but they're just carving out the reality that God's truth is *extremely* nuanced. Unfortunately that's why we have thousands of denominations today, but if you have the Spirit of God, you really can make it all work out. That's my experience anyway.

In regards to giving away wealth, I don't think Jesus puts that burden on us-- he was only saying it to that ruler because he wanted to convict his heart because the ruler made riches his idol. However God does require that we give our whole hearts to him and not love money. Like you said earlier God only cares about our heart. That said if you see someone needy and don't give him anything, there's probably something wrong with your heart.

Jesus personally damns the goats in Matthew 25 for ignoring the needs of the poor as if they were ignoring him. True faith in Christ will cause us to help the poor out of love. Apostle James preaches on this in chapter 2 as well. Also not many realize what the true sin of Sodom was:

Ezekiel 16
49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

[Chris Fleming]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

This dialogue really belongs in another thread, and perhaps a moderator can move it

That would be nice...

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Hello everyone!

… I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, …

--Chris

There are a lot of benefits in joining cults which is why people join them. And there are consequences for leaving. The consequences for leaving is the struggle to find out who you really are which often drives people back in, loss of friends and the threat of various types of punishments for leaving such as ‘the dark room’ in LC theology which I have only now heard about.

I wish I didn’t have the experiences which lead me into the WWCG and I have had a 17 year fight to ‘come right’ so to speak. But that is by-the-by. My Lord and Saviour knows.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There are a lot of benefits in joining cults which is why people join them. And there are consequences for leaving. The consequences for leaving is the struggle to find out who you really are which often drives people back in, loss of friends and the threat of various types of punishments for leaving such as ‘the dark room’ in LC theology which I have only now heard about.

I wish I didn’t have the experiences which lead me into the WWCG and I have had a 17 year fight to ‘come right’ so to speak. But that is by-the-by. My Lord and Saviour knows.

I just want you to know that Father God loves you more than you even can fathom even if you don't sense it. He's prepared a home for you in eternity that is greater than any mind on earth can grasp. The only thing you have to do is realize that you cannot save yourself and you are hopeless without him. cry out to him to save you and show you the way to salvation through Jesus. Repent of your sins and ask the Holy Spirit to live in you, then follow the Holy Spirit as he guides you on the narrow way that leads to eternal life.

Here's a video with verses on God's love for you:
http://www.fathersloveletter.com

Here's my website with videos on what God has in store for you for your eternity and how you can walk the narrow way with Jesus to your true home in heaven:
Http://eternityinourheart.com

Hi bearbear

Thank you for the encouragement.

I'm well on my way with the Lord. My reason for joining this forum is to assist in my understand of my friend who is very deep into the LC.

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Hello everyone!

… I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, …

--Chris

There are a lot of benefits in joining cults which is why people join them. And there are consequences for leaving. The consequences for leaving is the struggle to find out who you really are which often drives people back in, loss of friends and the threat of various types of punishments for leaving such as ‘the dark room’ in LC theology which I have only now heard about.

I wish I didn’t have the background experiences which lead me into the WWCG and I have had a 17 year fight to ‘come right’ so to speak. But that is by-the-by. My Lord and Saviour knows.