Concerns about the Local Churches

[esostaks]

I`m not sure if this is the right sub-forum for such thread and I apologize for my bad English, but here it goes.

First of all a little a bit about myself. I was raised in an atheistic family, however, 6 years ago our Lord saved me. I started to looking for church therefore I have visited several denominations and then I finally stopped and started to regularly attend one of the baptist churches in my city. Even during my first months as a christian when I didn`t know the Scriptures I felt that there was something wrong about the denominational churches and christianity as a whole. When I`ve read the New Testament several times I actually started seeing the false practices and teaching and the fact that the practice of churches described in the New Testament greatly differs from modern denominational churches.

About two years ago a very dear brother in Christ accidentally bought a book The Normal Christian Church Life written by brother Watchman Nee. I`ve read it and understood that the modern churches are false in their whole essence because the biblical churches are separated only by their geographical locations and not by teachings/beliefs/practices/nationalities/social factors etc. I was really happy about this so I started to search if there were any local churches in my country. Fortunately there was a church in the city where I was studying at that moment. I attended some meetings, however, the more time a spent with the church and the more I learned about development of local churches the more disappointed I became.

Eventhough the local churches represent them as something non-organizational I still see that they are extremely organised and act in the same way as any other christian denomination. They also stick to their leaders - Watchmen and Witness very strongly almost idolizing them and putting them in front of Christ. About a year ago I`ve read a testimony by a former member of local churches and he wrote that when Witness Lee was still alive brothers in some local churches made the same haircuts as him and you could be expelled from the church if you doubted something that was taught by Witness Lee. I`ve also seen a video from a local church meeting where the member sing a hymn glorifying Watchmen Nee. Isn`t Christ the only One who is worthy of such praise and glory?

Another thing is that I find works of Watchmen Nee very encouraging and believe that these teachings were revealed to him by God. They really help me grow spiritually. When I read books of Witness Lee something is simply not right. I wouldn`t say that they contradict Bible but they are rather outside the Bible. For example, he uses terms like "element of God", "distributing Christ" which are never used in the Scripture. He made an entire teaching on the expression "economy of God" which is mentioned in the Scripture only once. And how should believers even understand such difficult terms and such intellectual teaching if Paul writes to chorintians that there are not so many wise and strong by human standards among them.

Sometimes I even have a feeling that God really started to awaken His church by Watchman Nee and than satan planted his seed in the form of Witness Lee so the church again becomes nothing more then a formal organization and denomination.

I have now moved to another city to continue my studies and decided to give it another try because this city also has a local church. I attended several meetings but I really don`t get it and cannot see the practice and life of early churches described in the Bible. When I first spoke to the brothers and they were asking about my life the first question they asked is how did I learned about teaching of Watchmen and Witness and how did I found them (local churches). Shouldn`t it be asked how I repented and how Lord saved me?

I am really confused about all of this so I hoped someone here could explain it all and shed some light on my doubts. My purpose wasn`t to offend anyone. I am simply trying to understand God`s view on local churches and understand whether I should meet with brothers there or should I continue to walk on my own during these difficult times because I have not been meeting believers on a regular basis for about 4 years.

[aron]

Originally Posted by esostaks

About two years ago a very dear brother in Christ accidentally bought a book The Normal Christian Church Life written by brother Watchman Nee. I`ve read it and understood that the modern churches are false in their whole essence because the biblical churches are separated only by their geographical locations and not by teachings/beliefs/practices/nationalities/social factors etc.

"modern churches are false". That is an extreme statement, which ultimately separates the believers. You are false, so am I, so is Watchman Nee.

But Jesus Christ is real and true and shows us the way to the Father God in heaven.

Look at what John says in Revelation 1:

4 "John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen"

There is only one faithful witness. Jesus Christ. Not John, not Watchman Nee, not Witness Lee, not you or me. Our job is to witness(testify) concerning Jesus Christ. We testify concerning Jesus, not concerning the "true" church.

If you get hung up on teachings about "false churches" you will forget all about Jesus Christ. That is what the local churches of Witness Lee have done. They only "care for the Body", and "for the ministry".

Jesus taught us to have mercy on others, then the Father will have mercy on us. If you are surrounded by "false churches" go and show them mercy. It will be an opportunity for God to be merciful to you. If you judge them God will judge you.

James 2:13 "For he will be judged without mercy, he who shows no mercy to others. Mercy triumphs over judgment." All those "false churches" give you an opportunity to show mercy, not to judge.

[esostaks]

I cannot agree with you, dear brother. The biggest part of the NT is letters to different churches. It is strange that in these letters it is rarely mentioned about preaching Christ to others. These letter mostly talk about church life, growing in Christ, expressing Christ and of course it will also naturally lead to the salvation of unbeliever who will see this expression of church. Many churches make mistake when they only focus on spreading the gospel to unbeliever but forget that they must grow and become mature in Christ as a church and express Him. When someone is saved it is only the first step (though the most important) in his/her life, but there are more things to follow. Unfortunately most of the believers are very willing to remain in this state of childhood and immaturity for the rest of their lives. I pray not to end up like that and not to waste all of my lifetime which could be used by Christ to express Himself through me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by esostaks

I cannot agree with you, dear brother. .

I am not saying you are wrong. I am only sharing my opinion, and my experience. Once I was also looking for the "perfect church environment", but it took me 20 years to realize that God gives us imperfection to see what will we do with it. Will we reject our imperfect brother? Or forgive him/her? Will we "bear with one another in love" or go looking for "better building material" to build up the Body of Christ?

[aron]

“The biggest part of the NT is letters to different churches”.

The danger here is to oversimplify. First, look at chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation. This is one of the ‘proof texts’ that the local churches used when I was there. ‘To the church in Smyrna’, ‘to the church in Pergamos’ etc. Right? It doesn’t say to the “Baptist Church in Smyrna” or to “the Presbyterian Church in Laodicea”. Right?

But if you look at it more carefully it says “To the angel of the church in Ephesus”. Eventually, after many years, I realized that these people don’t want you to look at the Word of God. They want you to look at what they say about the Word of God, not the Word itself. They call it “the interpreted Word.” They don’t trust you to read it for yourself. You might see something they don't want you to see.

So be careful with Watchman Nee. He didn’t give you the Word, but rather his interpretation, his reading of the Word. Big difference.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

look at chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation.

if you look at it more carefully it says “To the angel of the church in Ephesus”. Eventually, after many years, I realized that these people don’t want you to look at the Word of God. They want you to look at what they say about the Word of God, not the Word itself.

I showed a local church brother this in Revelations 2 and 3 one time and he said, “We don’t care for angels here. Angels are just messengers”. So I showed him the part where it said, “I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to the churches” in Revelation 22:16. He wasn’t impressed, and then he said I was confused and trying to distract people.

Now, I’m not interested in angels of themselves, but I just use it to show a point, that there is a LOT more in the Bible than Watchman Nee would have you realize. Watchman Nee didn’t know the Bible that well. Neither do I, but I am not trying to start my own church either.

Remember that Jesus hung around with drunkards and sinners. He had a big problem with religious know-it-alls. I am not saying to go out and sin, but what I am saying is, do not think that you see something when you are still blind. Then, your blindness will remain. (John 9:41).

Again, all this is just the opinion from someone who has ‘been there, done that’. I am sure that other people have different views than mine; that is okay, too. I don't have to be 'right' here.

[esostaks]

I don`t know what to say, Aron. I just want to understand the God`s will for our times - to go unbiblical denominations and love the brothers there, to go to local churches or to separate oneself from the modern christian world and walk alone with Lord without any fellowship. It`s just so different to what we see in the Acts and in the rest of the NT that I have literary no idea how to actually practice fellowship or build relationship with other believers in our age. If I would know for sure that our Lord guides me even to the worst church in the world or to the most imperfect believers I would go there but at the moment my conscience simply does not allow to do so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by esostaks

I don`t know what to say, Aron. I just want to understand the God`s will for our times - to go unbiblical denominations and love the brothers there, to go to local churches or to separate oneself from the modern christian world and walk alone with Lord without any fellowship.

After being indoctrinated with Nee/Lee teachings, we all face this dilemma. I personally no longer consider a denomination to be a church with a "name." All the churches in the Bible have different "names." They are the church, that is all. They are all different. Carefully read Revel. chapters 2-3, and you will see that all seven churches were very different, not only in bad things but also in the good things. They were never as uniform as Lee taught that they were. The Lord Jesus never advised the believers to abandon any of these churches.

I now consider the necessary ingredient for a denomination to be a controlling headquarters, with dominant and abusive leaders. Both Nee and Lee became increasingly oppressive as time went on. They taught that the ministry serves the churches, but in reality the churches only existed for their ministries. They taught that the elders should be shepherds over the flock of God in every church, but in practice they abused God's people and often displaced the real elders, and replaced them with administrators over the churches, loyal only to them. The more I read actual testimonies of former members, the more hypocrisy is exposed in that system.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by esostaks

The biggest part of the NT is letters to different churches. It is strange that in these letters it is rarely mentioned about preaching Christ to others. These letter mostly talk about church life, growing in Christ, expressing Christ and of course it will also naturally lead to the salvation of unbeliever who will see this expression of church. Many churches make mistake when they only focus on spreading the gospel to unbeliever but forget that they must grow and become mature in Christ as a church and express Him. When someone is saved it is only the first step (though the most important) in his/her life, but there are more things to follow. Unfortunately most of the believers are very willing to remain in this state of childhood and immaturity for the rest of their lives. I pray not to end up like that and not to waste all of my lifetime which could be used by Christ to express Himself through me.

Brother esostaks ( I suspect you are a man right?)

The Lord Jesus told his disciples who became apostles after He ascended to
"Go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that He commanded (instructed) them; and lo, He would be with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

What I have come to realize in the last several years is that most believers reading the NT came from a 'gentile' background...not a Jewish background!

The apostles especially Paul and Peter had a huge task because they were preaching/teaching the converted Jews as well as the converted gentiles. The converted Jews struggled to shed the old wine skin (the OT LAW) and struggled to follow/abide and walk IN Spirit! (Much like most of us struggle today!)

The converted gentiles on the other hand probably worshiped pagan gods if they worshiped at all. They were not versed in the OT, in the law of Moses. I think that's why the Corinthians struggled with sin so much!

The converted Jews had always worshiped in the Temple or synagogues. They were religious people. Remember Nicodemus ? In fact to my knowledge, all of Christ's disciples were Jews.

If you re-read Hebrews, perhaps the Holy Spirit will show you as He showed me the danger the converted Jews were in. The author (probably Paul) warned them not to go back to the Old Covenant because if they did, they would go back to the animal sacrifices making a mockery of the Blood of Jesus! See. They did not understand the Power of the Blood of Jesus, nor did they know how to walk in Spirit.

So if you ask me, Paul in particular is attempting to teach the converted Jews how to walk by the Spirit, how to live sanctified lives, how to exhort one another. Remember as well, they only had the OT, the TANACH. They were not reading the NT like we do today. They did not have phones, TVs or internet. But they had 2 things that we have today: The Spirit of Life and the Spirit of death. Christ vs Satan. S/spirit vs flesh.

Also very few Jews (Israelites) in the OT spoke to God directly. They went through the prophets to ask God what to do. The converted Jews in Acts experienced an outpouring and anointing of the Holy Spirit that gave them great power and joy. But little by little, they lost that power & joy. Just like so many new believers do. Satan really attacked the church in Acts. By the end of the book, much of the church was in sad shape compared to the beginning of the book. Although the book of Acts has no end like the other books of the bible do.

I hope this helped you some.

Blessings and Shalom,
Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by esostaks

When I`ve read the New Testament several times I actually started seeing the false practices and teaching and the fact that the practice of churches described in the New Testament greatly differs from modern denominational churches.

The practices and teachings in the NT are for us to love one another, and forgive one another. The rest is not so important. Don't get lost in the details.

At its core our faith is simple: Repent, believe into Jesus Christ, love your neighbor. The rest is not so important. Watchman Nee's "Normal Church" became very abnormal. Believe me; I was there. No love. Just a zeal for the program. For "the church". No more love for your neighbor.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by esostaks

First of all a little a bit about myself. I was raised in an atheistic family, however, 6 years ago our Lord saved me.

Hello esostaks,
I am very happy you went into the LIGHT - Jesus Christ, Lord of all -! We all are and the angels above rejoiced at your salvation as well. You also are very blessed to have angels encamped about you, guarding you, protecting you, watching over you so you won't hit your foot against a stone. (Psalm 91:11) I think the hitting your foot against a stone must be spiritual because I have stubbed my toe more than once! However, there is no doubt the angels assigned to me have done a marvelous job of protecting me !!

So do not ever get discouraged in your faith and be forever thankful for your salvation!

I echo Aron's words:
Jesus Christ is real and true and shows us the way to the Father God in heaven. He is FAITHFUL and will never abandon us, forsake us or leave us in distress.

I echo what he said to you regarding Revelation 1:

4 "John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from Him Who is, and Who was, and Who is to come, and from the seven spirits before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ,Who is the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him Who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His Blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve His God (our God too) and Father--to Him be Glory and Power for ever and ever! Amen"

I also share Aron's voice:
"Our job is to witness(testify) concerning Jesus Christ. We testify concerning Jesus, not concerning the "true" church."

If you read the account of the 7 churches in Revelation, you will realize we are living in the Laodacian church age. Most believers whether in the LC or in a "church" organization are luke warm. Few are reading their bibles through and through. Confusion is rampant and has produced deep division in the body of Christ.

Take what the Spirit of God has shown you and be a light in the darkness. The Word is a lamp unto our feet. The young, hungry believers need you to feed them the Word of Truth, the Word of Love, the Word of Wisdom. Remember you are a king and priest unto the Most High God! You are an ambassador of Christ!

Even during my first months as a christian when I didn`t know the Scriptures I felt that there was something wrong about the denominational churches and christianity as a whole.

That is because we are ALL looking for that city with foundations whose BUILDER and MAKER is GOD! (Hebrew 11:10)

Even though the local churches represent them as something non-organizational I still see that they are extremely organized and act in the same way as any other christian denomination.

They have lost their first love. They will not admit to it but it is true. You are seeing and tasting the fruit of their spirit. The Anointing and Presence, the LOVE of God is no longer there.

I just read through 1 & 2 Samuel as well as 1 & 2 kings. The same thing those Israelites did is being repeated today. So many of those kings loved the True God but could not shake off the pagan gods. They worshipped both the True GOD and the pagan gods as well. What happened then is happening today. God was very displeased with them. What is sadder still is many believers today who have the Spirit of Jesus Christ living in them are holding on to their pagan gods. Back then they had the law not the Spirit except for the prophets.

Nee and Lee have become the LC's pagan gods. You have already witnessed this by your observation and comments:

They also stick to their leaders - Watchmen and Witness very strongly almost idolizing them and putting them in front of Christ.

Another thing is that I find works of Watchmen Nee very encouraging and believe that these teachings were revealed to him by God. They really help me grow spiritually. When I read books of Witness Lee something is simply not right. I wouldn`t say that they contradict Bible but they are rather outside the Bible. For example, he uses terms like "element of God", "distributing Christ" which are never used in the Scripture. He made an entire teaching on the expression "economy of God" which is mentioned in the Scripture only once.

You are quite the observant one. The Holy Spirit is helping you pay close attention to these things. The 'Economy of God' is one of the 'glue' of Lee's churches. "Nobody has seen the economy of God" but Lee. Hello? It is in the bible for crying out loud!! I have heard many bible teachers speak of God's economy. Sadly Lee twisted that phrase to reel his flock in.

[/Quote]Sometimes I even have a feeling that God really started to awaken His church by Watchman Nee and than satan planted his seed in the form of Witness Lee so the church again becomes nothing more then a formal organization and denomination.[Quote]

It is hard to tell. His works did open my eyes of the division caused by church labels, that is to say denominations and non denominational organizations. I personally was never a big fan of Lee. I left about the time I noticed the LC began idolizing him, began speaking of him more and more in the meetings than of the WORD -JESUS-.

When I first spoke to the brothers and they were asking about my life the first question they asked is how did I learned about teaching of Watchmen and Witness and how did I found them (local churches). Shouldn`t it be asked how I repented and how Lord saved me?

Horror of horrors ! I was not aware they were asking this (but I am not surprised). When I was in the LC, we were encouraged to share with believers and non believers how we met Christ Jesus. We also would ask believers how they met Christ Jesus to help them talk openly about their Saviour, our Saviour.

I am really confused about all of this so I hoped someone here could explain it all and shed some light on my doubts. My purpose wasn`t to offend anyone. I am simply trying to understand God`s view on local churches and understand whether I should meet with brothers there or should I continue to walk on my own during these difficult times because I have not been meeting believers on a regular basis for about 4 years.

Dear friend in Christ,
We are living in the last days. Hooray Hooray!! Do not let your heart be troubled. Pray without ceasing pray..Glorify, Praise, Worship our King and Lord Jesus with a big heart of Thanksgiving. Continue to draw near and dear to Him. Get to know Him more intimately. Get to Know the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit by addressing the Names of God when you pray and study.

God is Faithful. He will bring you friends in Christ to encourage you and uplift you. But know too you are the one GOD desires to use in these last days to bring people to Christ and to disciple them in His Word. May the Holy Spirit of Almighty God comfort and anoint you with the Oil of Peace, Joy, Gladness, Wisdom, Revelation, Love, Compassion, Strength, Goodness, Health and prosperity as we await for Christ Who IS, Who Was and IS Coming again very, very soon! Praise the Holy Name of Jesus.

Shalom in Yeshuah Hameshiah (Peace in Jesus the Messiah)

Carol G

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by esostaks

About two years ago a very dear brother in Christ accidentally bought a book The Normal Christian Church Life written by brother Watchman Nee. I`ve read it and understood that the modern churches are false in their whole essence because the biblical churches are separated only by their geographical locations and not by teachings/beliefs/practices/nationalities/social factors etc. I was really happy about this so I started to search if there were any local churches in my country. Fortunately there was a church in the city where I was studying at that moment. I attended some meetings, however, the more time a spent with the church and the more I learned about development of local churches the more disappointed I became.

Dear esostaks, you wrote many things, so I will try to address this paragraph on Nee's book TNCCL. This book attempts to document the early church, and thus provide a prescription for the future church. Many Christians in the USA were captured by Nee's teachings during the 1960's, when denominational "fortresses" were so prevalent in the Lord's body. I was with the local churches for 30 years before I saw through their hypocrisy.

The difficulties I now have with TNCCL are twofold: (1) Some of the teaching is bad, and (2) The leaders of the local churches, Nee (~1920-1950) and Lee (~1950-1997,) never practiced what they preached.

Though many teachings in TNCCL are good and scriptural, the Bible only describes "one city / one church," it never prescribes it. This is very important! Reading Revelation chaps. 2-3, it appears like each city was a church, but the Bible only records that it happened, and never that it must happen. In fact a careful examination of some verses (Acts 9.31; Romans 16.5; Col. 4.15) indicates that there probably was more than one church in some cities, and yet they were not considered divisions in the body.

Like wise Nee taught that only the apostles can appoint elders based on Acts 14.23 and Titus 1.5. This is another case where the Bible accurately records events which transpired in the early church, but never teaches it must be practiced. It took years before many of us realized how manipulative this teaching actually is. Both Nee and Lee appointed elders who were favorable to them and their ministry, but cared little for the saints under their care. Apostle Paul, however, prescribes for us men of upright character (see I Timothy and Titus) who were appointed as elders because (a) they were placed by the Holy Spirit and (b) they were approved by the church.

After all, the Bible says repeatedly that the church is the church "of God, of Christ Jesus," and the church "of the saints." No where is the church "of the elders, of the workers," and that is exactly what has transpired under the leadership of both Nee and Lee. Both Nee and Lee have excessively promoted oneness very much like the Catholic church did of old. By wrongly elevating their own manner of oneness, they were able to condemn the entire body of Christ as hopelessly divided. They judged all believers and churches based on wrong standards. This has not pleased the Lord, and that is why He told us, "by what judgment you judge, you will be judged."

Eventually we have learned that both Nee and Lee had numerous issues of misconduct, related to immorality and money, which had to be hidden from all the saints by their hand-picked minions surrounding them. All those who spoke their conscience and stood up for righteousness on behalf of God's children were smeared publicly by these leaders. The history of Nee in China is not as well known as the history of Lee in America, especially since many of us witnessed these events first hand. The forum here is filled with these stories.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by esostaks

I attended several meetings but I really don`t get it and cannot see the practice and life of early churches described in the Bible. When I first spoke to the brothers and they were asking about my life the first question they asked is how did I learned about teaching of Watchmen and Witness and how did I found them (local churches). Shouldn`t it be asked how I repented and how Lord saved me?

What I have placed in bold is an indication what makes a local church a ministry church. The emphasis is on the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Whether or not you are there for Christ is secondary to "do you have the vision?"
One can be a brother or sister coming to a Lord's Day meeting to meet in a general way, but if you lack the vision of the ministry, you're not going to fit in. In Western Washington state, community churches are more suitable for Christians seeking to meet in a general way than Local Churches are. So in a sense community churches are local churches, but without a specific ministry affiliation.

[aron]

Originally Posted by esostaks

I am simply trying to understand God`s view on local churches and understand whether I should meet with brothers there or should I continue to walk on my own during these difficult times because I have not been meeting believers on a regular basis for about 4 years.

I have tried to answer this person's questions a few times and keep feeling that I am missing the point, somehow. But I wanted to keep trying because it is so much like my experience many years ago when I first began to try to orient myself towards God by believing into Jesus Christ the Lord.

The next question was after believing was "now what"? and the answer was "church" and the question that followed was "what church"? and very soon I found myself in esostaks' very dilemma.

So let me start from the conclusion of the quote... I also have been "walking on my own" and "not meeting believers on a regular basis" for quite a few years now. But I don't feel alone. The Word, I feel, is opening up before me like some marvelous shining flower, more incredible than anything I could have imagined or dreamed. The center of the revelation is Jesus Christ. As you can see in my comments in the thread "The Psalms are the Word of Christ", Paul used this phrase twice and it pointed me toward the revelation of Jesus Christ in the OT text. Also Hebrews (see e.g. chapter 2) does the same thing. And Peter's speech in Acts 2 also explains how he could "see Jesus" the OT text. Everything good and real and true was pointing towards Jesus the Christ.

When you begin to "see" Jesus Christ in the text it literally transforms you. Now, as Paul wrote, the Word of Christ begins to dwell in you richly (Col 3:16). Witness Lee's footnotes said that the prayers of the Psalms were low, and Paul's prayers in Ephesians were high. But Paul in Ephesians (see ch. 5) pointed his readers back to the Psalms!

Did Jesus pray Paul's "high prayers" from the Epistle to the Ephesians or did Jesus pray the "low" prayers of Psalms? I believe that Paul saw Jesus inhabit the Word and express the Word and even become the Word made flesh tabernacling before us all, and in this Paul marveled greatly and praised God in his epistles.

So I guess my first point is that the Word points us to Jesus Christ, and second is that Jesus Christ told us the Spirit would lead us to all the reality of the Father's house. Not Watchman Nee, or Paul, or Witness Lee, but the Spirit of Jesus. So if you abide in the text a marvelous thing will happen. The Spirit will come. I cannot explain it: I just can tell you that the Spirit will come. And you will begin to see the Father's house emerge before you.

And you will not be "walking on your own" because the Spirit will be your constant guide. Will you obey? Will you abide? I cannot say, but the Spirit will nonetheless guide. Believe me, the Spirit is capable of overcoming our failures!

The third and final point is that all this is not for your amusement or "enjoyment", but so that God can use you. You will meet a non-believing person, looking for reality. You will meet a new believer needing help. You will meet an ancient and feeble believer, needing confirmation and support. You will meet someone who is lost and needs to hear the Name of Jesus. You will meet the hungry, the sick, the poor, the despised. And as you despair in your helplessness the Spirit will come in a rush of power to help you; the same power that raised Jesus from the dead will flow through you to the 'dead' ones around you. Then you will be serving God.

This, my friend, is the "new testament church life". It will fulfill and satisfy you beyond your dreams. It is right there in front of you. You already have it. If you keep looking for "the right church" you will be in for a long and disappointing search. One day, many years after leaving Lee's local church, I stopped seeking something new and better and different and began to seek God in the Word. At that point everything began to change.

Have I done a good job of it? Probably not. But I stopped looking for "Mr. Right". Mr Right is already here. His name is Jesus. He is clearly portrayed before us in the Word, not only in the NT but 'especially' in the OT. In fact, the entire NT could be seen as a brief outline telling you how to find the Christ in the OT!

His Spirit is here. The hungry poor ones are all around us. The fields are white for harvest. He told us, "Blessed is the one who is feeding others when the Master returns." (Matt 24:46, Luke 12:43).

The "proper church life" is right in front of us. It has been there all along. We just didn't know what we were looking for, and were easily misled.

And occasionally on Sunday morning I "go to church". But I don't go to despise, or judge, or be superior. I am just another loser on the "Jesus bus". So I go the same as everywhere else - I go to try and take care of 'my neighbor'; to try and feed and shepherd (see John chapter 21: Jesus speaking to Peter). There really is nothing else. Love God with all your heart and soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And some of your neighbors go to church.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

I have tried to answer this person's questions a few times and keep feeling that I am missing the point, somehow. But I wanted to keep trying because it is so much like my experience many years ago when I first began to try to orient myself towards God by believing into Jesus Christ the Lord.

The next question was after believing was "now what"? and the answer was "church" and the question that followed was "what church"? and very soon I found myself in esostaks' very dilemma.

Don't beat yourself up Aron. We have all missed a point here and there. I think we can all relate to esostaks experience.

And like you as well as so many others here and there the question "now what"? haunts us. How do we meet, congregate or fellowship? Who understands us ? Our church meetings/fellowship were/are not the norm (in more ways than one! That's for sure!)

I have 'walked alone with Christ' and have tried to be involved in an organized church fellowship. Most believers simply have no problem with saying they 'go to church' or not. Not us! We never went to church! We went to meetings! We didn't have 'pastors', we had 'elders' but not like the elders of the LDS Mormon church.

We spoke differently, prayed differently and sang differently. Our church meetings were not like any church services.

The church community does not understand our dilemma. And for our part, we have a very difficult time overall fitting in with the 'church going' gang.

But wallowing in our 'sorrows' is not going to make us the disciples, the ambassadors, the kings & priests we are to be to the lost world.

So while I too on occasion go 'to church' and was 'involved' in a church for a few years, I am very much at peace with God. I pray a lot, read and study, fellowship with whoever the Lord puts me with, share the Word with whoever is hungry and thirsty for the Living Word-Jesus. The Truth.


I am often reminded Jesus commanded us to disciple the nations. Paul, Peter, John encouraged us to stay focused on Christ and instructed us to fellowship with each other and to Walk, Conduct ourselves with Wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with Grace, (we are told) as though seasoned with salt, so that we will know how we should respond to each person. (Colossians 4:5-7)

In Hebrews 10:25, we are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together especially but to exhort one another: and so much the more, as we see the day approaching.

This does not mean we must go 'to church' as most people think it to be. We are not babes in Christ any more. It is up to us by the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit to lead people to Christ, teach them the fundamentals of the Word, disciple them so they too can be confident in Christ to lead people to Him, to teach them the Word of God and disciple them for the Kingdom to the Glory and Praise of our Great God.

When you begin to "see" Jesus Christ in the text it literally transforms you. Now, as Paul wrote, the Word of Christ begins to dwell in you richly (Col 3:16).

Absolutely He does!

Witness Lee's footnotes said that the prayers of the Psalms were low, and Paul's prayers in Ephesians were high. But Paul in Ephesians (see ch. 5) pointed his readers back to the Psalms!

I sure hope he repented for those words before he breathed his last breath! The Psalms are part of the entire Inspired Word of God. We are not to belittle it !

Blessings and Peace as we await for Messiah Jesus to come Quickly for us,
Carol g