J. Gordon Melton

[IDon'tKnow]

I noticed that Melton the lead apologist for LSM during the godmen trial, is also known for defending groups such as Aum Shinrikyo, the Family (Children of God), People's temple, and Scientology. In addition it would also seem that they're might be a certain level of colusion between him and said groups, (they ask him for help, he helps them). All of this makes him look like a somewhat unsavoury person.

With that question in mind I was wondering if anybody knew under what circumstances, Melton was brought into help LSM during the godmen situation (did he approach LSM or the other way around)? also what was history like back then?

I ask this not because I believe that the mindbender/godmen are true (I haven't read them, but I do get the impression that they are mostly baseless.) I was simply wondering whether questionable methods were used to disprove them (besides the courts of course).

Also I have no interest in vampirism or whether or not someone is an expert in it.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

I have never read this book, just found it on-line (thought it was banned or recalled after LSM's successful lawsuit). I have no idea what was exposed in it's pages, or whether it was balanced or fair. Anyone here ever read it and do a review? Just curious.

...this one's still available too, although of course neither are still in print. Better watch out Amazon.com, if LSM's league of Prosecuting Attorneys, AKA "DCP" learns of this, it'll be one quick trip to the Supreme Court for you!

Review of either book anyone?

Ray

[Cal]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Review of either book anyone?

They were both fairly unscholarly works. I think in one of them they kept misspelling "biblical." I'm not sure which one.

But both of them got some things right and other things wrong. On the other hand, thinking back there were some things they said that I dismissed that now sort of made sense.

One example, and I know this is vague, because I can't even remember which book it was from. But I remember an account of the writer visiting an LC meeting and listening to the popcorn testimonies and other declarations and being troubled by the unusual tone and cadence of them. What was it?, he asked. Finally it came to him. Everyone sounded Chinese, even though they were largely white Americans!

I remember at the time I thought the guy was crazy. But now I think there was something to it. I think we had picked up the way the Chinese saints would speak very rapidly and then end on a very high, extended note. "Di-di-di-di-di-di-deeeeeeeeeee!" Everyone did it. Though I don't know what they sound like now.

[UntoHim]

Something to keep in mind is that both of these books were produced in th 70s at a time when The Local Church was somewhat secretive and extremely uncooperative towards all outsiders (Cult busters or no). The authors were forced to fill in a lot of blanks when it came to writing about the teachings and practices. So I don't think the "unscholarly" term applies as much as incomplete and or not fully accurate....and considering who they were dealing with it's a wonder they got as much information as they did. Not giving excuses, but these books need to be placed within the context of the time they were produced. Nevertheless, in the case of the Mindbenders, I don't think the Local Church should have been included with non-Christian cults such as the Unification Church and Hare Krishna, and in the case of The God-Men, I think the book cover played upon any prejudices the American public may have against Asian believers.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Something to keep in mind is that both of these books were produced in th 70s at a time when The Local Church was somewhat secretive and extremely uncooperative towards all outsiders (Cult busters or no). The authors were forced to fill in a lot of blanks when it came to writing about the teachings and practices. So I don't think the "unscholarly" term applies as much as incomplete and or not fully accurate....and considering who they were dealing with it's a wonder they got as much information as they did.

I brought these books forward only because, in the brief time I affiliated with the LRC, there were a few "divisive" elements that were quarantined:

1) Titus Chu and the "Great Lakes saints". These became personna non-grata, and when I was in Anaheim RG spoke this in a tone as Grave as his name: "The lights went out all across the midwest. There are no lampstands left there, the Lord has no testimony in these places." We were warned not to fellowship with these ones, do not go there, and do not look even to contact them. You might be poisoned.

2) The "Rebellion" of Dong yu Long(?) in South America also illicited a warning letter from LSM, with an admonition to not even go on-line and try to look into these matters yourself, for fear of a poisoning.

Knowing that this is LSM's modus operandi, should we not also start to question what else they deemed "poisonous", my poisonous friends?


Ray

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Knowing that this is LSM's modus operandi, should we not also start to question what else they deemed "poisonous", my poisonous friends?


Ray

Merely visiting this forum or any like it that provides a counterpoint, will elicit the term poison, poisoned, or poisonous.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I brought these books forward only because, in the brief time I affiliated with the LRC, there were a few "divisive" elements that were quarantined:

1) Titus Chu and the "Great Lakes saints". These became personna non-grata, and when I was in Anaheim RG spoke this in a tone as Grave as his name: "The lights went out all across the midwest. There are no lampstands left there, the Lord has no testimony in these places." We were warned not to fellowship with these ones, do not go there, and do not look even to contact them. You might be poisoned.

This displays the true attitude of the Anaheim Politburo to those who will not walk in lock step with them even in the tiniest of details. The Church in Cleveland did not quarantine Titus Chu and neither did many other churches in the GLA (and hopefully elsewhere).

These churches aren't lampstands anymore. Seriously? Is this what HQ has decided? So it's not just a matter of "the work". It's not just a dispute between co-workers. Now entire regions of churches have no light? Has Ray Graver read Revelation 2-3 recently? Does he understand that even by then they were still considered lampstands? And does he know that it is the Lord who removes lampstands not Ray Graver or Benson Phillips or Ron Kangas? And does he understand that a coworker's relationship with LSM is not grounds for lampstand removal? Has he been so long in the bowels of the "Ministry Office" that he actually believes his own poppycock now?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

1) Titus Chu and the "Great Lakes saints". These became personna non-grata, and when I was in Anaheim RG spoke this in a tone as Grave as his name: "The lights went out all across the midwest. There are no lampstands left there, the Lord has no testimony in these places." We were warned not to fellowship with these ones, do not go there, and do not look even to contact them. You might be poisoned.

Sadly this is true. Anaheim CA had the highest level of radioactive fallout of any EPA air monitoring station in the continental US for iodine 131. It turns out that Anaheim is now the only church in the US that is "glowing". So it is critical that nothing from Anaheim travel to the rest of the country lest it be poisoned. Kudos to RG for warning the saints they might be poisoned and not to spread that poison.

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed...hima-radiation

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

when I was in Anaheim RG spoke this in a tone as Grave as his name: "The lights went out all across the midwest. There are no lampstands left there, the Lord has no testimony in these places." We were warned not to fellowship with these ones, do not go there, and do not look even to contact them. You might be poisoned.

Reading this again . . . it's just amazing any Christian could talk this way.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in the darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth." I John 1.6

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Something to keep in mind is that both of these books were produced in th 70s at a time when The Local Church was somewhat secretive and extremely uncooperative towards all outsiders (Cult busters or no). The authors were forced to fill in a lot of blanks when it came to writing about the teachings and practices. So I don't think the "unscholarly" term applies as much as incomplete and or not fully accurate....and considering who they were dealing with it's a wonder they got as much information as they did. Not giving excuses, but these books need to be placed within the context of the time they were produced.... and in the case of The God-Men, I think the book cover played upon any prejudices the American public may have against Asian believers.

Well, I couldn't help myself. I had to purchase SCP's "The God-Men" for myself, and see what caused the stir and raised the wrath of Witness Lee.

UntoHim, this book is nothing like what you have suggested here (perhaps you're relying on something you heard while you were within the "Local Church"?). Rather than being "unscholarly" or "incomplete", "The God-Men: An inquiry into Witness Lee & the Local Church" is in fact very well researched and thoroughly documents what Neil Duddy uncovers in his four years of research WITHIN the Local Church. Duddy also went out his way to check the facts with the men best equipped to give them to him: Witness Lee and the closest members of his entourage.

I would like to share what I am reading here on Local Church Discussions. I think this community in particular owes it to Neil Duddy and the SCP to hear what they had to say - since it was the donations and tithes of Local church members around North America, which were (even if unwittingly) fed into the hands of LSM and redirected to their team of Prosecuting Attorneys (DCP). Those tithes, given for the Glory of our God, were then used in direct violation of 1st Corinthians chapter 6 to financially cripple this Christian author and this Christian apologetics organization.

Think about it saints - plenty of people have said plenty of bad things about Witness Lee and LSM. Why was this author and this publishing firm in particular targetted for such a legal attack? If it bankrupted SCP after four years of "pre-trial" wrangling (orchestrated by DCP), then imagine how much of your own money, donated with the best of intentions, was used to achieve that end? Why would LSM sink that much of your money into this? If this book is really so shoddily written and easily refuted, then what did they have to fear? I'll tell you what. What they've always feared; the Truth.

I will start a new thread, and invite you to read this book with me as I go through it and excerpt (in a balanced way) a book that LSM has successfully banned - even if that success was only gained by default through sheer financial duress.

Ray

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Think about it saints - plenty of people have said plenty of bad things about Witness Lee and LSM. Why was this author and this publishing firm in particular targetted for such a legal attack? If it bankrupted SCP after four years of "pre-trial" wrangling (orchestrated by DCP), then imagine how much of your own money, donated with the best of intentions, was used to achieve that end?

The SCP lawsuit happened several decades before DCP was ever created. However the means to engage in such a lawsuit undoubtedly came from the same source.....the saints giving.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Rather than being "unscholarly" or "incomplete", "The God-Men: An inquiry into Witness Lee & the Local Church" is in fact very well researched and thoroughly documents what Neil Duddy uncovers in his four years of research WITHIN the Local Church. Duddy also went out his way to check the facts with the men best equipped to give them to him: Witness Lee and the closest members of his entourage.

I understand that there was a semblance of scholarship, but some of his key stories were not real at all. The "original" research for this book matched that for the other book Mindbenders. Thomas Nelson Publishers actually retracted that book when they were informed of certain behind the scenes activities concerning the authors.

That said, I welcome your input. Usually the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. It is my belief, however, that these forums, filled with the stories of former members, have provided the best record of what the LC is all about.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Igzy

One example, and I know this is vague, because I can't even remember which book it was from. But I remember an account of the writer visiting an LC meeting and listening to the popcorn testimonies and other declarations and being troubled by the unusual tone and cadence of them. What was it?, he asked. Finally it came to him. Everyone sounded Chinese, even though they were largely white Americans!

I remember at the time I thought the guy was crazy. But now I think there was something to it. I think we had picked up the way the Chinese saints would speak very rapidly and then end on a very high, extended note. "Di-di-di-di-di-di-deeeeeeeeeee!" Everyone did it. Though I don't know what they sound like now.

Interesting observation; I have to confess I've heard it too. I mean, the "Chinese saints" in our church largely didn't participate at all.... only two ever stood to share anything, and the most of them sat quietly by themselves. Most of the caucasian folks in our locality admitted that, though they'd been meeting with the chinese people for years, they didn't even know their names... yet Chinese pronunciations seemed to abound. The way many of the caucasians would call on the Lord, wish I had it recorded, but I'm sure you've heard it "OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH LOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHDDDDDD JEEEEEEEEEE/ZUSSSSS" That "Jesus" was often GEE-ZUS, with such a hard Chinese "Z" for the second syllable. Weird habit. The "R" in Lord was often slurred too, just like the Chinese might say it. Learned worship, done by rote, I suppose.

Ray

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Just stating the facts. Any church, even a denomination, will have a proportion of members who satisfy those categories. Certain denominations have a large proportion of free-masons, and other secret societies who worship Satan, in many cases even the pastor or priest is one.

Yes I agree: J Gordon Melton who defended the Local Church is very involved with vampirology and is/was president of the American Dracula Society. How is that for Satanic? He is also a Methodist minister. Apparently the LSMLC had no qualms appealing/hiring Melton for their defense. What hypocrisy!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Yes I agree: J Gordon Melton who defended the Local Church is very involved with vampirology and is/was president of the American Dracula Society. How is that for Satanic? He is also a Methodist minister. Apparently the LSMLC had no qualms appealing/hiring Melton for their defense. What hypocrisy!

That is the study of vampires, that does not mean he was/is one.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is the study of vampires, that does not mean he was/is one.

He was president of the American chapter of the Transylvanian Society of Dracula, may still be president and continues to participate in all the events. Now if I were to use your particular brand of logic that you have disseminated across this forum, then he certainly is a vampire.

http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/vamp2.htm

Far more than just study. But then, one can stick their head in the sand and just be flippant about it. Why are you so afraid of the truth?

[least]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

He was president of the American chapter of the Transylvanian Society of Dracula, may still be president and continues to participate in all the events. Now if I were to use your particular brand of logic that you have disseminated across this forum, then he certainly is a vampire.
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/vamp2.htm
Far more than just study. But then, one can stick their head in the sand and just be flippant about it. Why are you so afraid of the truth?

NML, what role is this 'president' in LSMLC? Can't say the v word.
I'm shaking. After Evangelical assured that there is 'no blasphemy' in LCers proclaiming themselves gods, I said ah well, people I know in there are fine. Now how is a v personality involved with them?

[UntoHim]

Ok guys, enough of the vampire stuff. I could be wrong, but I doubt that OnHisPath started this thread to discuss "The American chapter of the Transylvanian Society of Dracula".
-

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

He was president of the American chapter of the Transylvanian Society of Dracula, may still be president and continues to participate in all the events. Now if I were to use your particular brand of logic that you have disseminated across this forum, then he certainly is a vampire.

Why are you focusing on the fact that the LC consulted him and not the fact that he is also a REVEREND? The latter to me is worse than the former. The organization or system that allowed him to be called a Reverend and minister in the Methodist church and a vampire is the one and same degraded system the Recovery stands against. Still, I would not be comfortable with consulting him either. To a degree, I agree the LC should not have consulted the services of a man who likes morbid cosplay. A v------ is a mythical thing. We may as well say he is a unicorn (hopefully unicorns are acceptable discussion). So you think because LSMLC hired a v------, or a unicorn, or a water fairy, to defend them, there's a problem. It depends, what degree of associate he has with the LC? Is he an elder? Is he in charge of something? I am interested to know as well. I don't really see the problem to consult an unbeliever's services, just like I don't see a problem with a Christian hiring a non-Christian plumber (who may be into all sorts of things).

But back to reality for a moment. According to the Bible, real Satanism is frustrating God's purpose (Matt 16:23). Real Satanism is offering a tasty looking fruit to a hungry woman (Eve in Genesis). Real Satanism is far more benign than Hollywood movies and popular Christianity portrays it. Real Satanism is that little question ("did God really say"?).

[NewManLiving]

You have no clue as to how subtle the enemy is. You will defend anything as long as you can get the last word in. Most of what you say is right off the top of your own head, but you think you know the mind of God - specifically the Holy Spirit and even the mind of Satan. It's almost comical - you must be very young

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

He was president of the American chapter of the Transylvanian Society of Dracula, may still be president and continues to participate in all the events. Now if I were to use your particular brand of logic that you have disseminated across this forum, then he certainly is a vampire.
Far more than just study. But then, one can stick their head in the sand and just be flippant about it. Why are you so afraid of the truth?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is the study of vampires, that does not mean he was/is one.

The best study is through personal experiences.

You and I have no idea what he was, or are you now extolling Methodist ministers?