kicked out!

[james73]

Well it seems there is a price to pay for voicing dissent about the LC on the forum here - just got this email from the elder in our group:

James,

Because you have written to the public negatively concerning the church, we don't think it is appropriate for you to come to our meetings. Now, I don't want to reiterate here the things you have written about the church. Suffice to say, they have damaged our fellowship.

We were under the impression that you are travelling in the UK, that's why we have not contacted you.

T___

Well. Quite upsetting. After all, seems there is no "trial". Come to think of it, there's absolutely no evidence it's "me" posting here. I wouldn't deny it, of course, but at the same time, it's very easy for someone to have posted in my name. Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision; and who gives them the AUTHORITY to ban someone, if they indeed believe they are the "only church in Hong Kong"? There must have been some pretty mucky slander going on the last few days, no wonder I've been feeling so anxious.

Obviously they are also feeling upset if they think I've been posting publicly my complaints about the church, and I'm sorry about that. But no regrets or repentance - a church should be able to take public criticism. If there's a lesson for them to learn, it's to take member's complaints more seriously before the members get frustrated and seek outside help. If there's a lesson for me to learn, it's not to get involved with cultish Californian ministries that believe they are God's only gift to the world.

[aron]

Originally Posted by james73

Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision..

One of the strengths of the LC system is its impenetrability. It is like the "omerta" code in the mafia: anyone who knows anything isn't talking.

The simple fact that you were publicly presenting what is said in LC meetings was enough to get you put out, and quickly. No discussion, no warning, no "probation", no evidence presented, no witnesses brought forward.

It is hard to have conversations with these people. Either repeat the mantra of the week, or be shown the door.

The good news is that you don't seem to be bothered about meeting with other Christians. A LOT of LC Christians have been so brainwashed that they can't bear to "meet on other ground", i.e. have any fellowship with other Christian believers. If you have gotten over that, you will avoid becoming isolated. The flock of God is your protection, and if the LC doesn't care about "the public" hearing the truth of what is said in their meetings, what is going to be their end, really?

God bless your journey as it continues. Remember, no bitterness! You are better off for what has just happened; it is their loss, not yours.

[countmeworthy]

James,
To your question how they might have known you were posting, don't you think there are LC 'spies' reading the forum ? Someone might have recognized you. You have shared your concerns before the congregation then sharing with us what you shared and how it was received at the meetings.

For me this is more proof that the wonderful church life I once embraced indeed is simply another organization, run like a business. When a person works for a company, he/she must abide by the rules. There is little room for disagreement over policy. You might express your concern and they will try to make you see it their way. After some time, you will keep your opinions of disagreement to yourself, resign or handed a pink slip.

You got handed your pink slip.

In the real CHURCH, the Body of Christ holds Christ Jesus as their Head. They are free to fellowship and to disagree.

Recently I watched a panel of end time teachers on TV. One was a Pre-Tribber and one was a post-tribber. I can't recall of there was a mid-tribber..
Possibly. But I recognized the pre and post tribbers for sure.

All discussed their personal view based on their interpretation of scripture. Everyone respected each others views..at least on TV. But I guarantee the zpre tribber pastor will never invite the post tribber and vice versa to their respective " church". They need to be like minded.

That is why I prefer informal fellowship. However I am not a babe in Christ either where I need some basic and very much needed biblical truths. Young believers need to be discipled in the Word of God.

The problem is if a born again believer starts going to church for the first time, he/she will also pick up their stand on salvation, tongues, etc..

We need to learn to read and study the bible without preconceived ideas. We need to accept the good and throw out the bad.

Everyone here at one time loved the church life..for however long. It was not all bad. As time went on and we kept reaching out to JESUS, to His Word, desiring the Truth and Love, we felt the darkness of the LC suffocating us...others saw and experienced some terrible things.

May the Lord restore the Joy of their salvation and heal their wounds quickly. May we all remember Jesus is our Solid Rock ..all other ground is sinking sand.

Blessings and may the Joy of the Lord Jesus strengthen you and fill you with Peace James..and everyone here too.

Carol Garza

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

Well. Quite upsetting. After all, seems there is no "trial". Come to think of it, there's absolutely no evidence it's "me" posting here. I wouldn't deny it, of course, but at the same time, it's very easy for someone to have posted in my name. Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision; and who gives them the AUTHORITY to ban someone, if they indeed believe they are the "only church in Hong Kong"? There must have been some pretty mucky slander going on the last few days, no wonder I've been feeling so anxious.

Obviously they are also feeling upset if they think I've been posting publicly my complaints about the church, and I'm sorry about that. But no regrets or repentance - a church should be able to take public criticism. If there's a lesson for them to learn, it's to take member's complaints more seriously before the members get frustrated and seek outside help. If there's a lesson for me to learn, it's not to get involved with cultish Californian ministries that believe they are God's only gift to the world.

Well James, IF the brothers leading each locality and even those heading up LSM WERE open to fellowship there would be less reason for this forum to exist. Locally and at LSM, these leading ones don't want to listen objectively in the spirit of fellowship, well brother this is our release valve.

[Ohio]

During the cold war days, I worked with a Russian engineer who was released during the Carter administration. An opportunity opened to emigrate to the US and he took the chance. Though he was not at all religious, his papers said he was "Jewish," because a parent of his also was so labeled, as were his daughter's papers.

The Soviet propaganda machine daily smeared everything "western." That's all the people knew. Radio Free Europe, the only source of outside information, was regularly jammed by Soviet authorities. The Soviet people daily were brainwashed that theirs was the best life on earth, while America was a cesspool of capitalistic criminals. It was said that half the people in Russia were engaged in spying on the other half. Mikhail settled in Columbus, OH simply because Columbus discovered America. That was his only point of reference with his new home.

After Mikhail got work at my company, and began to acclimate to American life, he sent a letter back to his brother in Moscow. He sent pictures of his home, his family, and his two used cars. His brother promptly disowned him for lying about owning those two cars. Impossible he felt, since Mother Russia was the best place on earth, and he was still waiting to obtain his first car.

Back in those days, there was a saying about those behind the walls of Soviet domination. Absent any honest information, and unable to inform those people of the truth, it was said, "open the door, and see which way the people go." If communism was that great, then all the people would stay. If capitalism were that bad, then no one would dare go there. Open the door to see which way the people go!

Where fear and propaganda run rampant, we can draw a few similarities between life in the Recovery and life behind the iron curtain. I always found it simply amazing to hear how quickly some saint could be "poisoned" and leave the Recovery. We always blamed it on the devil, but if life in the Recovery was so good, and life out there in Christianity was so bad, then surely none would dare depart. Later on I learned how much I was held by fear and false promises. I discovered how much unrighteousness existed at LSM, and how they treated those brothers brave enough to speak their conscience.

It is worthwhile to ask why the leadership at LSM is so afraid of the internet. Jesus and all the Apostles were constantly lied about, but could care less since they walked in the truth. They trusted in God. LSM, however, has many secrets they wish to remain secret. That's why they are so afraid of the internet, and that's why they must quarantine and eliminate any saint who knows something.

[Cal]

james,

Kicked out for speaking your mind. What else is new with the LRC?

Consider yourself blessed that you got enlightened about this paranoid group before they indoctrinated you into their paranoia as well.

[alwayslearning]

"Because you have written to the public negatively concerning the church, we don't think it is appropriate for you to come to our meetings. Now, I don't want to reiterate here the things you have written about the church. Suffice to say, they have damaged our fellowship."

Typical and clearly demonstrates the spiritual immaturity of the LC system leadership that persists to this day. And if at all true proves how superficial and fragile their "fellowship" really is.

The OT is full of negativity about Israel and the NT about the various churches. Take the Bible and cut out all the negative writings and see how much is left!

But really it's the hypocrisy that takes the cake with these guys. Witness Lee's writings are chock full of negative comments about other Christians. His ministry basically relies on attacking other Christians as the premise of his special elitist Recovery movement.

And how he handled coworkers like John Ingalls, etc. was to widely publicize in print, audio and visual formats an avalanche of negative comments. Same thing was done to Titus Chu by the Anaheim Politburo.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

"Because you have written to the public negatively concerning the church, we don't think it is appropriate for you to come to our meetings. Now, I don't want to reiterate here the things you have written about the church. Suffice to say, they have damaged our fellowship."

Typical and clearly demonstrates the spiritual immaturity of the LC system leadership that persists to this day. And if at all true proves how superficial and fragile their "fellowship" really is.

Fellowship you say? That is what I call groupthink because when saints such as James isn't lining up with the groupthink apparatus, he's out of "fellowship". If there was true fellowship, there would be mutual communication to discuss the negatives in addition to the positives in an objective manner by speaking the truth in love.
Problem is those in the lead are often too subjective and as a result closed to any potential fellowship in mutuality. "Being one with the brothers" appears to carry more weight than scripture.
I think we all (those who meet in the local churches and those who used
to) know the modus operandi. Brothers in the lead will go on the offensive to make certain claims (with or without basis). Just as soon as you call them out on it, nothing but silence. Not a word. To get the brothers to respond on any matter, you would need legal cause to do so.

Hi brother James , what an interesting arrangement. I was the one who commented on the tumblr site you have- and reading the local church forum makes me guess you may be the same person. Anyways, I hope you are doing well in Christ and be full of strength and encouragement !

Re: James kicked out
And the devistation continues . . .

Carol Garza - "Kicked out" post
Good solid post. Thank you! The grief process is a bear. Thank you for your post. It is so healthy to read what is written here. The freedom outside the Office encourages us to draw ever nearer to God. I may not take a stand on the tribulation and other doctrines, but I love Jesus and know enough to not get side-tracked by Leeism. Only the immoral and criminals get to color outside the lines, at least in the Office! The rest must carry the party line or risk getting kicked out. Hallelujah (not at the time), I got shunned and kicked out in 1981. What a blessing (although not at the time).

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Carol Garza - "Kicked out" post
Good solid post. Thank you! The grief process is a bear. Thank you for your post. It is so healthy to read what is written here. The freedom outside the Office encourages us to draw ever nearer to God. I may not take a stand on the tribulation and other doctrines, but I love Jesus and know enough to not get side-tracked by Leeism. Only the immoral and criminals get to color outside the lines, at least in the Office! The rest must carry the party line or risk getting kicked out. Hallelujah (not at the time), I got shunned and kicked out in 1981. What a blessing (although not at the time).

Gosh! It's been a while since I have been here..and to see my name mentioned was a pleasant albeit shocker! So glad I and everyone here have been an encouragement.

The grieving process is a bear because we were duped that the LC church life was the all in all. In my day, it had some very positive attributes going for it.
I left around 1978/79

I went to find what I wrote to you.. wow.. that was 2013. I through the Grace of God have changed so much since then..


Ecclesiastes 3 has been a great reminder to me that
To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

There was a reason we were in the LC... God brought us in and God brought us out. To everything there is a season. Our season there has come and gone.

showers of blessings be upon us all..

Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Ecclesiastes 3 has been a great reminder to me that
To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

There was a reason we were in the LC... God brought us in and God brought us out. To everything there is a season. Our season there has come and gone.

showers of blessings be upon us all..

Carol G

Blessings be on you as well, and all glory and honor to the Father and to the King.

I'm grateful for my LC experience and extremely grateful the Lord led me out.

Like everyone else, I've had my "times and seasons", but in all, God is good, kind, merciful. The great high calling in Christ Jesus endures, and the love of God never wavers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I went to find what I wrote to you.. wow.. that was 2013. I through the Grace of God have changed so much since then..


Ecclesiastes 3 has been a great reminder to me that
To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

There was a reason we were in the LC... God brought us in and God brought us out. To everything there is a season. Our season there has come and gone.

showers of blessings be upon us all..

Carol G

And I'll also quote this. Yes, the Lord has shown me clearly that He brought me into the LC and He took me out. Where I am now is where He placed me - "God places the members in the body as He sees fit." I have seen and experienced so much more of His love and grace, and through the members of His body since then. But I must say, I am most thankful for the LC then, and also SC now!

But in reading this I am also grieved for you - not an easy experience. Lord supply our brother!

(and thanks for all the tender and hopefully comforting replies on here to him)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And I'll also quote this. Yes, the Lord has shown me clearly that He brought me into the LC and He took me out. Where I am now is where He placed me - "God places the members in the body as He sees fit." I have seen and experienced so much more of His love and grace, and through the members of His body since then. But I must say, I am most thankful for the LC then, and also SC now!

But in reading this I am also grieved for you - not an easy experience. Lord supply our brother!

(and thanks for all the tender and hopefully comforting replies on here to him)

Hi again..
Not sure who you are grieving for..just know that I Carol, am in a very good place.

May God turn everyone's children's grief into dancing as He places His Healing Hands on us all for we are the body of Christ, fitly framed together. The healthier we are, the more Glory Light we will be upon the world shining brightly drawing people to Jesus in these dark days.

Blessings of Love and Peace be upon us all in Christ Jesus.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hi again..
Not sure who you are grieving for..just know that I Carol, am in a very good place.

May God turn everyone's children's grief into dancing as He places His Healing Hands on us all for we are the body of Christ, fitly framed together. The healthier we are, the more Glory Light we will be upon the world shining brightly drawing people to Jesus in these dark days.

Blessings of Love and Peace be upon us all in Christ Jesus.

Amen sister! And may you find rich fellowship on here and where you are! Just ask Him - He is faithful!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hi again..
Not sure who you are grieving for..just know that I Carol, am in a very good place.

And hi again to you. It's always great to hear from you. Much love and many blessings sister.

Harold

P.S. I might be wrong, but I think neither of us are into organized religion. So we're stuck with disorganized religion.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by james73

Well it seems there is a price to pay for voicing dissent about the LC on the forum here - just got this email from the elder in our group:


Well. Quite upsetting. After all, seems there is no "trial". Come to think of it, there's absolutely no evidence it's "me" posting here. I wouldn't deny it, of course, but at the same time, it's very easy for someone to have posted in my name. Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision; and who gives them the AUTHORITY to ban someone, if they indeed believe they are the "only church in Hong Kong"? There must have been some pretty mucky slander going on the last few days, no wonder I've been feeling so anxious.

Obviously they are also feeling upset if they think I've been posting publicly my complaints about the church, and I'm sorry about that. But no regrets or repentance - a church should be able to take public criticism. If there's a lesson for them to learn, it's to take member's complaints more seriously before the members get frustrated and seek outside help. If there's a lesson for me to learn, it's not to get involved with cultish Californian ministries that believe they are God's only gift to the world.

If you are told that you can't meet with them they've done you a favor.