What is Building Up?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

They also believe it edifys oneself...cause that what the Bible says.

Edify. This is one of those words that everyone knows what it means, but I think that most people treat it as if it means something else.

Edify. Essentially to build. An edifice is a building, and the modification into edify indicates the process of bringing a building to be. So "building."

Yet, in spiritual, emotional, psychological, etc., terms, what is "building"? It surely means to add to or improve the condition with a goal to a "correct" or "healthy" condition. But how do we gauge that?

By our feelings? We feel better. We are impressed. We have a sense of elation. We are joyous. We are euphoric.

But is this the true measure of "building" in the spiritual realm? Or is it a substitute? We accept a better feeling as the measure of something grounded and sober.

So what builds you? Euphoria or hardship? An unspeakable revelation or a solid revelation that you are not as righteous as you thought?

Just some examples.

I still assert that the Cessationist position is no better than the position that tongues and other miracles continue. But the "old school" version of the Pentecostal/charismatic gifts seems to place it way out of balance with respect to scripture. Just like Lee took "prophesying" and drove it way out of perspective.

And I know that last one still riles many of us who now despise the LRC. We really liked the kind of involvement that we got in our testimony times. But the pattern does not look like that. It looks like people gathering in mass to the Temple, then to other places where there were teachers to learn from.

No record of the listeners stepping up to speak out and "prophesy."

If we are just supposed to do our own "prophesying," then what is a teacher? Why are they mentioned in a positive sense? Not just in a negative sense. Paul didn't say to avoid teachers. He said to avoid certain kinds.

I agree that hearing from the body as a whole at times is a good thing. But insisting on it is not much better than insisting on tongues. Or piano and organ but no band, Or Band but no organ (unless it is a Hammond B-3). Or a single piece of unleavened, bleached flour bread broken immediately before the "table" v separate crackers (and layer in wine v grape juice; one cup v lots of little ones v dipping the bread in the "juice", and so on).

Personally, I cringe at the word "edifying" because it almost always ends out with a "feel good" aura around it rather than something that looks like either personal sanctification or the growing together of the members of the body.

And while I agree (even with my Dad a little) that it is probably not correct to pass the charismatic things off as relics of an ended time, too much of the visible evidence is that it is not about edifying, but about feeling good.

[Cal]

I hope OBW does not mind me starting a new thread with his post, because this subject of building up, edifying and building, and the legacy concepts left over from the LRC, are things that have been on my mind lately.

I recall several years ago, when SpeakersCorner was around, I made the claim that the LRC had largely missed the matter of relationships, both with God and with others. SC, whom I have a lot of respect for, but who was still very steeped in LRC concepts, took exception with me on this. I seem to remember he thought the idea was too touchy-feely and missed the main point of "God's economy." Now I know SC had relationships, because he talked about movie night with his "homies." I just think he was still under undo LRC influence about the "central matters" of God's economy.

Since then my view of the value of relationship, both with God and others, has only gotten stronger, and my view of the value of LRC substitutes for that (e.g., being constituted with God in your being) has only diminished.

I remember in the LRC we talked about "building," but no one knew what it was. I remember vaguely calling it the "mortar" of God between us, whatever that meant. Then Lee said in the John training that building was just the growth in life. But still it didn't add up. In the meantime, although the LRC emphasized being together with one another, it downplayed relationships, which is really weird when you think about it. The LRC would talk about "our walk with the Lord," but what is a walk if not a relationship? But they didn't like that word because of the personal, emotional aspect of it.

In recent years I've been fortunate enough to build real relationships with Christians in my life. We talk about things, we are friendly, we pray together and experience God together, we laugh and share personal struggles. Then it finally dawned on me. The building between one another is simply the relationships between us. It is your strong attachment and trust in those who you've let into your life. My relationship with my Christian friends, including some on this board, has formed a godly bond which would be hard to break.

But the bottom line with relationships is they have to, in some sense, be personal. The LRC resisted this. They wanted us to somehow be built together without ever getting personal or vulnerable with each other. But that's not the way human beings work. Real relationships always include some personal investment. When they are sanctified, that is the building. They are holy, but they are still very human, emotional and personal. Without that factor, the bond is not as strong as it might be.

[ABrotherinFaith]

I can't count the number of times I've been told NOT to have HUMAN relationships with brothers and sisters, not to have preferences among brothers and sisters... ostensibly this seems so right, so spiritual, so much according to God's economy, but my question is if this is even possible as a HUMAN--not to mention as a Christian. How can I avoid the love God has placed in my heart for my family, for my friends and those who He's brought into my life? Seems impossible. And to be built up don't we need precisely those relationships, those types of relationships to flourish?
One possible side effect of this type of mandate is the lack of care for those outside The Church, those not being "built up."

[OBW]

And there's that phrase again, ". . . according to God's economy . . . ." What does it mean? In our history, too much of its meaning was artificial mumbo-jumbo designed to elevate one set of teachings and demean all others.

And "Yes," Igzy, this is a great topic, even if not necessarily the best kick-off post. I expect better is still on the way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I can't count the number of times I've been told NOT to have HUMAN relationships with brothers and sisters...

During the quarantines, LSM always recycles their pernicious teaching that the members should not have "natural love" one for another. You may have been close friends or years and years, as I was with many saints, but when these bro/sis are on the "wrong" side of a quarantine, then we must not let love get between us and their mandate to "quarantine them lepers."

The other night my wife rented a fictional video movie named Contagion about an expanding pandemic catastrophe. The virus was so contagious and deadly that all the sick were isolated and quarantined. The nurses even went on strike because no protective guidelines were in place. Bodies were buried in mass graves because funeral homes reused to take the corpses. All the workers wore full-body pressurized tyvek suits and masks. All because some Chinese pig got sick from a bat dropping.

This is the kind of scenario which LSM likes to portray about those who teach differently than the Blendeds. Why are they so dangerous? What is this "virus" which can so quickly contaminate the unsuspecting faithful? What does LSM so morbidly fear? The truth is they fear the truth. Especially the truth about what really happened behind the scenes. As long as you believe their "spin" on events, then you are immune from "sickness." And don't trust anybody, not even your own spouse, and especially not your friends. He/she might be sick too. The only ones that can be trusted are the Blendeds at LSM.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

During the quarantines, LSM always recycles their pernicious teaching that the members should not have "natural love" one for another.

Right. "Love the church", "love the ministry", but don't love your neighbor.

Contrast this to:

"Greater love has no man, that he lays down his life for his friends". John 15

"Jesus loved the disciples to the uttermost" John 13

"One of the disciples, that Jesus loved, was reclining at his breast" John 13

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13

"Knowledge puffs up; love edifies." 1 Cor 8

And, an early Christian writer named Tertullian quoted a pagan official saying about the Christians: "look at how much they love each other!"

[OBW]

I still don't like the word because of its baggage. I would tend to re-translate it to something (like "build" or "builds"). But when aron posted this verse, I noticed something different.

"Knowledge puffs up; love edifies." 1 Cor 8

Here, knowledge is the contrast for building. And it seems that there is also a directional difference.

Knowledge affects yourself while love affects others. It builds up. Not only yourself but those who are loved.

Knowledge is inward (and negatively) while love is outward and positive.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I can't count the number of times I've been told NOT to have HUMAN relationships with brothers and sisters, not to have preferences among brothers and sisters... ostensibly this seems so right, so spiritual, so much according to God's economy, but my question is if this is even possible as a HUMAN--not to mention as a Christian. How can I avoid the love God has placed in my heart for my family, for my friends and those who He's brought into my life? Seems impossible. And to be built up don't we need precisely those relationships, those types of relationships to flourish?
One possible side effect of this type of mandate is the lack of care for those outside The Church, those not being "built up."

That's why there is no real LOVE in the LRC...even among themselves! They are afraid they are going to offend Lee and his cohorts! Of course we need relationships! I get what they are saying..."Don't let your relationships be in a constant carnal state of mind'. However they are conveying it all wrong!!

We are supposed to be spiritually minded but that does not mean LC minded! What is NORMAL about reading the life studies or HWMR booklets or anything Lee or LC centered? The other day at Walmart, there was this very small, very short older woman trying to reach for a blouse too high for her to reach. I was hesitant to help her because to MY SHAME...making a confession here... she had a bunch of tattoos! I hate tats! Anyway, I went right over to her and asked her if I could help her get the blouse down. She was very thankful and what a lovely woman she was. We began chatting. She told me about her health problems and her family.

As we started to go our seperate ways, I asked if I could pray over her. I placed my hand on her shoulder and prayed for her and her family. Now isn't this quite normal? It SHOULD be!!! Another time there at Walmart, I was standing in line to pay when a young man at the other lane began having a seisure. Falling to the ground, shaking, someone placed a towel under his head as the paramedics were called. I did not know initially what was happening to him but I stepped out of my line and walked over towards him, extending my hands over him and praying silently for him. Do you know another man joined me ? Several people stood right where they were in line and also prayed !!! When he came to, I went over to him and told him the paramedics were coming. I also told him I was standing right by him while he was having a seizure praying for him. He grabbed my arm and thanked me. He had never had a seizure before.

To be totally honest, I am most comfortable around hungry non-believers or believers who do not go 'to church'. I can be myself...my SELF... ahh...but this 'self' is IN Christ at all times. And this 'self' is being renewed day by day. I love thanking the LORD for constantly renewing mind! One day our minds in Christ is going to be manifested!!

Have FAITH brother! Faith that God has plans for you to prosper. Plans not to harm you but plans to give you HOPE and a (bright) Future!

Carol G

[james73]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That's why there is no real LOVE in the LRC...even among themselves! They are afraid they are going to offend Lee and his cohorts! Of course we need relationships! I get what they are saying..."Don't let your relationships be in a constant carnal state of mind'. However they are conveying it all wrong!!

We are supposed to be spiritually minded but that does not mean LC minded! What is NORMAL about reading the life studies or HWMR booklets or anything Lee or LC centered? The other day at Walmart, there was this very small, very short older woman trying to reach for a blouse too high for her to reach. I was hesitant to help her because to MY SHAME...making a confession here... she had a bunch of tattoos! I hate tats! Anyway, I went right over to her and asked her if I could help her get the blouse down. She was very thankful and what a lovely woman she was. We began chatting. She told me about her health problems and her family.

As we started to go our seperate ways, I asked if I could pray over her. I placed my hand on her shoulder and prayed for her and her family. Now isn't this quite normal? It SHOULD be!!! Another time there at Walmart, I was standing in line to pay when a young man at the other lane began having a seisure. Falling to the ground, shaking, someone placed a towel under his head as the paramedics were called. I did not know initially what was happening to him but I stepped out of my line and walked over towards him, extending my hands over him and praying silently for him. Do you know another man joined me ? Several people stood right where they were in line and also prayed !!! When he came to, I went over to him and told him the paramedics were coming. I also told him I was standing right by him while he was having a seizure praying for him. He grabbed my arm and thanked me. He had never had a seizure before.

To be totally honest, I am most comfortable around hungry non-believers or believers who do not go 'to church'. I can be myself...my SELF... ahh...but this 'self' is IN Christ at all times. And this 'self' is being renewed day by day. I love thanking the LORD for constantly renewing mind! One day our minds in Christ is going to be manifested!!

Have FAITH brother! Faith that God has plans for you to prosper. Plans not to harm you but plans to give you HOPE and a (bright) Future!

Carol G

Great post! This is it in a nutshell, and what I am learning fast. Christianity, building the body, is sharing in small groups, loving neighbors and each other. A "home church" I feel may not even be necessary, it's just an institution invented to develop security and consistent income.

I felt sad reading some of the posts here, because I have no friends at the LC, after 18 months. I have tried; the reason mostly is control and fear from the elders. They want to "build up the body" but they are also afraid of damaging the body. Hence, brother James is forbidden to hang out with those sisters any more (Two of those sisters, aghast at being accused of wrongdoing in hanging out with a brother, no longer attend the church.) Any activity where an elder won't be present is discouraged - just as Satan prevented Paul from reaching his destination (Thessolonians 2:18), the few times I have arranged meet ups with the brothers outside the church, the elders have run interference to prevent the meet up happening. I truly see this interference as Satanic, because it is NOT from God, it is from fear, from control.

As for the social life in the group, Watchman Nee has a lot to answer for, writing like this in "Authority and Submission" (my bolds):

THE LONELINESS OF AN AUTHORITY

In order for us to learn to be an authority, we must also learn to set ourselves apart from the brothers and sisters. We need to refrain from many things which we otherwise could do or say. We should be separated in our speech and in our emotion. We may hold a certain attitude when we are by ourselves. But when we are with others, we have to set ourselves apart. We can only fellowship with the brothers and sisters to a certain extent. We cannot be flippant or frivolous. We need to give up our freedom and suffer loneliness. Loneliness is a mark of being an authority. All those who are frivolous among the brothers and sisters cannot be an authority. This is not pride. It merely means that for the sake of representing God's authority, we have to have certain limitations in our fellowship with the brothers and sisters. We cannot be too loose or easy-going. Sparrows fly in company, but the eagles fly alone. If we can only fly low and not suffer the loneliness of flying high, we are not qualified to be an authority. In order to be an authority, we have to be restricted and must separate ourselves. We cannot do what others can freely do. We cannot say what others can hastily say. We have to submit to the Spirit of the Lord. The Holy Spirit within us will teach us. This will make us lonely; it will strip us of excitement. We will no longer dare to joke around the brothers and sisters. This is the price that an authority has to pay. We must sanctify ourselves as the Lord Jesus did before we can be an authority.

As far as being a member in the Body is concerned, an authority has to be absolutely inconspicuous, being the same as the other brothers and sisters, in order to maintain the fellowship of the Body. However, in representing God, an authority has to be restricted by God and sanctified. He should be a pattern to the saints. But in acting as a member, he should coordinate and serve together with others, not setting himself apart as a special class.

Well, I am the most frivolous member there. I make jokes. I make jokes about the bread at Lord's Table and no-one laughs, I arrive at the meeting and tell people about the dumb guy I just saw driving a Lambo while reading a comic book or about a dog I just saw which looked like Elvis and everyone just looks at me waiting for the footnote, and when I read this Watchman Nee now I know why. Funny thing is, I am the one who feels lonely and ignored, yet I am the sparrow - they are all off being Eagles and enjoying being Eagles together, if that makes sense. Everybody secretly wants to be an authority so they all behave the way Nee tells them an authority should behave, even while denying they are "special" or wanting authority. Anyway... I can laugh about it now

By the way, Carol, I have a tattoo, just warning you Funny cos nobody at LC said anything, I forget about it myself usually, but one day over lunch with an elder/older I mentioned some difficulty I was having getting over my ex, and I pointed to the tattoo (a beautiful V for Vanessa) to emphasize how important she'd been to me, and the lady POUNCED on the comment and said "oh yes, you should have it removed", she practically had a list of removal clinics ready.

I feel a more loving way would be to at least try to understand the origins and the meaning of the tattoo, try to understand what it's like to have the name of a girl who's no longer around emblazoned on your arm... there's a lot of lessons about acceptance in that little bit of ink! Will the group who simply "prayed" that I have it removed (their desire, not God's) ever get to understand that? Nope - God may want them to understand it, but they know better.

Anyway, there you go Carol, you can add another tattooed guy to your list of friends!

[aron]

Originally Posted by james73

As for the social life in the group, Watchman Nee has a lot to answer for, writing like this in "Authority and Submission":

As far as being a member in the Body is concerned, an authority has to be absolutely inconspicuous, being the same as the other brothers and sisters, in order to maintain the fellowship of the Body. However, in representing God, an authority has to be restricted by God and sanctified. He should be a pattern to the saints. But in acting as a member, he should coordinate and serve together with others, not setting himself apart as a special class.

What a joke. My strong recollection of the LCs is that the "authority" there is very conspicuous. In other words, you find out pretty quickly who is not supposed to have an opinion, and whose opinion is equivalent to "the feeling in the Body", and "the will of the Lord".

WL clearly set himself apart as a "special class". So WN's advice here was towards everybody except the guy at the top of the system (and those who could have lunch with the top guy).

"Everything they tell you, observe and do, but do not imitate what they do." (Matt. 23:3).

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by james73

Great post! This is it in a nutshell, and what I am learning fast. Christianity, building the body, is sharing in small groups, loving neighbors and each other. A "home church" I feel may not even be necessary, it's just an institution invented to develop security and consistent income.

Bingo! Personally, I like hanging out with friends and talking about the Lord and His Kingdom. I picture Jesus hanging out with Mary, Martha and Lazurus..His buds. He relaxed at their house...after preaching and teaching long hours. Imagine how blessed they were to have JESUS hang out with them at their house!! That's the kind of friendships I want and do have to some extent. We are still a work in progress. Still need some transformation, some more sanctification...still being refined!!

I felt sad reading some of the posts here, because I have no friends at the LC, after 18 months. I have tried; the reason mostly is control and fear from the elders. They want to "build up the body" but they are also afraid of damaging the body. Hence, brother James is forbidden to hang out with those sisters any more (Two of those sisters, aghast at being accused of wrongdoing in hanging out with a brother, no longer attend the church.)

James...my tattooed amigo...why are you still in the LC??? Are there really more pros than cons hanging with this church? Take a piece of paper. Divide it in 2 columns: Pros - What I LOVE and Cons: 'What I hate.

Which column is longer?

If the women who were your friends were/ARE real friends, that bond is stronger than the LC bond. I know. I have experienced it! When I was in the LC, I did not (was not allowed) to hang out with my unsaved friends unless I was going to bring them into the LC. I never brought them into the LC but you know what? After leaving the LC I led a couple of them to the LORD!! Of course, this has only been in the last 5-6 yrs.

My point is...if they are really good true-blue friends, don't let them go. But do be careful. Walk in S/spirit while having fun. Keep the Full Armour of God on at all times...even when kidding around and having fun.

Since you like jokes...here's one for you:
A very wealthy old man was on his deathbed. As he was getting ready to depart, he tells his endearing wife to bury him with all HIS money. PROMISE me you will bury me with all my money, he tells her while holding her hand. Of course I will honey! she replies. I promise. So he dies and so she keeps her promise. She writes him a check and places it in his pocket.

And one more to put in your pocket:

So there was this couple who had been married a very long time...and the time came when the wife died. She stands at the pearly gates being greeted by St Peter who welcomes her but tells her she must spell the word "Love" before she can enter in. So she spells it and all is well. As she enters, St Pete asks her to mind the gate and if anyone comes, they need to spell the word. He leaves and she is standing at the gate welcoming people when her husband shows up. To her surprise, he tells her he could not live w/o her! So she tells him he has to spell a word before he can enter the pearly gates.

What is the word he asks? Czechoslovakia she replies.

By the way, Carol, I have a tattoo, just warning you Funny cos nobody at LC said anything, I forget about it myself usually, but one day over lunch with an elder/older I mentioned some difficulty I was having getting over my ex, and I pointed to the tattoo (a beautiful V for Vanessa) to emphasize how important she'd been to me, and the lady POUNCED on the comment and said "oh yes, you should have it removed", she practically had a list of removal clinics ready.

I feel a more loving way would be to at least try to understand the origins and the meaning of the tattoo, try to understand what it's like to have the name of a girl who's no longer around emblazoned on your arm... there's a lot of lessons about acceptance in that little bit of ink! Will the group who simply "prayed" that I have it removed (their desire, not God's) ever get to understand that? Nope - God may want them to understand it, but they know better.

Anyway, there you go Carol, you can add another tattooed guy to your list of friends!

I may not like tattoos..and a lot of people go overboard. They gross me out. But I have friends with tats. One even prays in tongues. While I don't encourage anyone to get them, I would never tell anyone to get them removed unless there is something demonic on that tat and the person was growing in Christ. That is why we have the Holy Spirit.


One of my friend's James has a small tattoo on her shoulder blade of a heart with a lightening bolt piercing through it. She told me it symbolized all her heartaches. Don't feel sorry for her though.....she's a piece of work. I love her but she's a BIG THORN not only on my side but on everyone's side !!!

Blessings James and all!
Carol

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

I felt sad reading some of the posts here, because I have no friends at the LC, after 18 months. I have tried; the reason mostly is control and fear from the elders. They want to "build up the body" but they are also afraid of damaging the body. Hence, brother James is forbidden to hang out with those sisters any more (Two of those sisters, aghast at being accused of wrongdoing in hanging out with a brother, no longer attend the church.) Any activity where an elder won't be present is discouraged - just as Satan prevented Paul from reaching his destination (Thessolonians 2:18), the few times I have arranged meet ups with the brothers outside the church, the elders have run interference to prevent the meet up happening. I truly see this interference as Satanic, because it is NOT from God, it is from fear, from control.

In the LC, it's difficult to be honest and have depth because of the fear of man. If you don't fear man and aren't political about it, you find yourself experiencing the over reactive nature of some elders (maybe not all). In the professional work environment no one appreciates or likes being micro managed. Yet this is what certain elders and co-workers do in the church life. You find yourself being micro managed by elders maybe in part they can't trust you or questions being asked the elders can't handle your concepts? As much desire there is to build up the body, when the micromanagement issues in false accusation of wrongdoing, the elders or elder needs to get right with the sister. By the way a similar scenario did occur near my area a few years back so it's nothing new.

In the context of this thread a healthy action to issue in building up is through reconciliation.

The object of Building up is the Body of Christ, the temple of God.
The way of being built up is growing in the spirit and life of Christ which is indwelling in true believers.
The contents of building is the spirit and the life, the Christ in His believers.
The growing, which building up is growing of members of body.
Each members of the body shall grow in Christ, with Christ, in His life (being).
This is being built up as the spiritual house of God.
It's disappearing our selves, increasing Christ in the members, the body.

It never mean so called or quoted "relationship" with or among Christians.

Scriptures : Eph 4:15-16, 1Pet 2:5

[aron]

Originally Posted by TY

It never mean[t] so called or quoted "relationship" with or among Christians.

Scriptures : Eph 4:15-16, 1Pet 2:5

No; but it is often meant or called "love" among Christians.

As in the second greatest commandment is "love your neighbor as yourself". As in "by this shall men know that you are disciples, by the love you have for one another"

Scriptures: Matt 22:49, John 13:35

As in Paul referring to Onesimus as his very heart. Onesimus, a runaway slave, hardly "good building material". Yet Paul had a relationship with him, just as he did with Philemon.

Philemon 1:12

Now, some may feel that "love" is unrelated to building up. Perhaps even a hindrance (honey, anyone?). But for some reason I stubbornly cling to the notion that they are related. Intrinsically and essentially related.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by TY

The object of Building up is the Body of Christ, the temple of God.
The way of being built up is growing in the spirit and life of Christ which is indwelling in true believers.
The contents of building is the spirit and the life, the Christ in His believers.
The growing, which building up is growing of members of body.
Each members of the body shall grow in Christ, with Christ, in His life (being).
This is being built up as the spiritual house of God.
It's disappearing our selves, increasing Christ in the members, the body.

It never mean so called or quoted "relationship" with or among Christians.

Scriptures : Eph 4:15-16, 1Pet 2:5

Sorry, friend. But you don't know what you are talking about. You are just regurgitating Lee-speak. Love that is not willing to become vulnerable and relate to others is not love at all, and it certainly doesn't build anyone up. And all the pseudo-spiritual talk in the world doesn't change that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Sorry, friend. But you don't know what you are talking about. You are just regurgitating Lee-speak...all the pseudo-spiritual talk in the world doesn't change that.

One problem I have with "Lee-speak" is that I find it ephemeral and subjective.

Look at "The way of being built up is the growing in the spirit and life of Christ which is indwelling in true believers", for example. How do you really know if you are "growing in the spirit and life of Christ"?

I mean, it sounds good. If I was to say that stuff to a Christian on the street, or hand them a tract saying such, they might be impressed with my verbiage. But really, what does it mean? Do I have any assurance at all that at the end of my course I will be measured and found to have grown in the spirit and life of Christ?

The only true, practical measuring stick that I can use is my standing in the Lee-run church. If the elder whom Lee has appointed to watch over my affairs approves me as a member in good standing, then I simply have to hope in the reality behind Lee's words. In other words, if I am going to the meetings, the trainings, buying the literature, and supporting whatever "move" is coming out of headquarters, I must trust that the shepherds watching over my soul are not leading me astray, but instead are leading me into all the reality.

Basically, all I get from Lee & Co that I am "growing in the spirit and life of Christ" is "Trust us. If you do what we say, then you are indeed growing in the spirit and life of Christ." Not much to hang my hat on, as I approach the Judgment Seat. My relationship with a publishing house in Anaheim California has become the de facto equivalent of my standing before God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The only true, practical measuring stick that I can use is my standing in the Lee-run church. If the elder whom Lee has appointed to watch over my affairs approves me as a member in good standing, then I simply have to hope in the reality behind Lee's words. In other words, if I am going to the meetings, the trainings, buying the literature, and supporting whatever "move" is coming out of headquarters, I must trust that the shepherds watching over my soul are not leading me astray, but instead are leading me into all the reality.

There was a time when "building up" was all about who you were connected with; like bricks in a wall, we should be surrounded by "the brothers." So we all got excited about that, since we were together so much, and one had to practically sneak away one night of the week to do laundry, lest he be considered a back-slider or worse.

Then, we had the so-called "Max" rebellion, and many saints left holding on to the ones around them. Vast numbers of saints departed. Well ... that's not working out! Better change that definition. First we needed to be inoculated from any thought that the building up is being connected to those around you. Since friendships are such a bad thing, let's decide that "honey" in the Levitical offerings refers to "natural relationships." We can't be having any of those, now can we? That teaching subsequently became quite valuable to the Recovery since storms, departures, and quarantines have become such a regular feature.

As a result, all the saints have learned the hard way that the only "safe" relationship on earth, tried and tested of a truth, is our standing with "the ministry." Marriages can collapse, families can war with each other, all of which has been foretold in scripture, yet never ... let me repeat never ... drop your stand for the ministry. Don't even trust your own conscience, since you can be self-deceived, but the ministry alone is supposedly "faithful" to Him who promised.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TY

The object of Building up is the Body of Christ, the temple of God.
The way of being built up is growing in the spirit and life of Christ which is indwelling in true believers.
The contents of building is the spirit and the life, the Christ in His believers.
The growing, which building up is growing of members of body.
Each members of the body shall grow in Christ, with Christ, in His life (being).
This is being built up as the spiritual house of God.
It's disappearing our selves, increasing Christ in the members, the body.

It never mean so called or quoted "relationship" with or among Christians.

Scriptures : Eph 4:15-16, 1Pet 2:5

Reading this, I thought of Paul's word to Corinth ...

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

Then the apostle made this matter very clear when he said ...

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.

Witness Lee could talk about Building Up in his sleep, but whom did he ever love? Whom did he ever treat with respect?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Edify. This is one of those words that everyone knows what it means, but I think that most people treat it as if it means something else.

Edify. Essentially to build. An edifice is a building, and the modification into edify indicates the process of bringing a building to be. So "building."

Yet, in spiritual, emotional, psychological, etc., terms, what is "building"? It surely means to add to or improve the condition with a goal to a "correct" or "healthy" condition. But how do we gauge that?

By our feelings? We feel better. We are impressed. We have a sense of elation. We are joyous. We are euphoric.

But is this the true measure of "building" in the spiritual realm? Or is it a substitute? We accept a better feeling as the measure of something grounded and sober.

So what builds you? Euphoria or hardship? An unspeakable revelation or a solid revelation that you are not as righteous as you thought?

Just some examples.

I still assert that the Cessationist position is no better than the position that tongues and other miracles continue. But the "old school" version of the Pentecostal/charismatic gifts seems to place it way out of balance with respect to scripture. Just like Lee took "prophesying" and drove it way out of perspective.

And I know that last one still riles many of us who now despise the LRC. We really liked the kind of involvement that we got in our testimony times. But the pattern does not look like that. It looks like people gathering in mass to the Temple, then to other places where there were teachers to learn from.

No record of the listeners stepping up to speak out and "prophesy."

If we are just supposed to do our own "prophesying," then what is a teacher? Why are they mentioned in a positive sense? Not just in a negative sense. Paul didn't say to avoid teachers. He said to avoid certain kinds.

I agree that hearing from the body as a whole at times is a good thing. But insisting on it is not much better than insisting on tongues. Or piano and organ but no band, Or Band but no organ (unless it is a Hammond B-3). Or a single piece of unleavened, bleached flour bread broken immediately before the "table" v separate crackers (and layer in wine v grape juice; one cup v lots of little ones v dipping the bread in the "juice", and so on).

Personally, I cringe at the word "edifying" because it almost always ends out with a "feel good" aura around it rather than something that looks like either personal sanctification or the growing together of the members of the body.

And while I agree (even with my Dad a little) that it is probably not correct to pass the charismatic things off as relics of an ended time, too much of the visible evidence is that it is not about edifying, but about feeling good.

Great points OBW! Next time I am around my charismatic friends, I am going to ask them what exactly it means to them when they say praying in tongues 'edifys' them.

You know what 'edifys' me? When I have passed a test or trial. Man, I rejoice! Because I 'got it!" I have a great story..uh testimony for you guys.

A few years ago, I left my wallet at the check out stand of the grocery store I was at. I put all my groceries in the shopping cart and left my wallet on the counter. On my way home, I stopped to put gas in my car. EEK!! No money..no wallet!

As I was racing back to the store...praying fervently no less, Phillipians 4:6-7 came to me. "Be anxious for nothing.

So I told the Lord: YOUR WORD says not to be anxious. So I am surrendering my anxiety to you. I have made my request with a heart filled with gratitude for receiving my supplication. I have asked You to place a hedge of protection around my wallet. I believe it will be there in tact. But if not, it is in Your Hands and I will not be mad at You. You will help me get through it all no matter what the outcome.

I was still anxious of course but I was Thanking the Lord all the way back to the store. And to Him be the Glory and Praise, it was there...everything in tact.

That was the first time in my entire life, I stood on Phillipians 4:6-7 even though we ALL know those scriptures by heart!

I learned a lesson!! Even though I was still scared and anxious, I was not focusing on my anxiety. I was focusing on the Word and by FAITH I was trying to obey. I think my efforts, yes MY EFFORTS pleased the LORD. I am still very, very human!!!

Try not to be anxious when in a scary situation! (speaking to all reading my post..not speaking directly to OBW.)

Shalom!

Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Edify. This is one of those words that everyone knows what it means, but I think that most people treat it as if it means something else.

Edify. Essentially to build. An edifice is a building, and the modification into edify indicates the process of bringing a building to be. So "building."

Yet, in spiritual, emotional, psychological, etc., terms, what is "building"? It surely means to add to or improve the condition with a goal to a "correct" or "healthy" condition. But how do we gauge that?
-----
I still assert that the Cessationist position is no better than the position that tongues and other miracles continue. But the "old school" version of the Pentecostal/charismatic gifts seems to place it way out of balance with respect to scripture. Just like Lee took "prophesying" and drove it way out of perspective.
---
Personally, I cringe at the word "edifying" because it almost always ends out with a "feel good" aura around it rather than something that looks like either personal sanctification or the growing together of the members of the body.

And while ... it is probably not correct to pass the charismatic things off as relics of an ended time, too much of the visible evidence is that it is not about edifying, but about feeling good.

I apologize for using OBW as a spring-board for my possibly irrelevant rant. But I will try to make it "quick and clear".

The idea of charismatic experience being linked to building up in God's kingdom has a long lineage, of which speaking in tongues and other "ecstatic" phenomena were merely parts. For example, I think of the prophets who became somewhat "mad" and channeled the Spirit of God who then instructed others through them.

I also think of the prophets who continually declared that they fell down as dead, and could not eat or drink or function normally after seeing a vision of God (Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc). This continued into the NT. See Paul (Acts 9:9) and John's (Rev. 1:17) testimonies for example.

So here is my "quick and clear" -- God comes to us in His Word, on the proverbial holy mountain, and shows us a pattern of the heavenly things (Hebrews 8:5). Everything we then do must be according to this pattern.

And seeing this pattern, I argue, places a holy flame upon us, in which we are both astonished beyond measure, and even become ourselves an astonishment and a byword of both mocking and awe to those around us. But whether this involves singing, dancing, praying, pray-reading, "prophesying", speaking tongues, hand-waving, guitars, music, rolling around on the floor, is irrelevant. What matters (to me) is:

#1 the Word of God. Ecstasy apart from the word is untrustworthy. We are today become like Aaron in Exodus 28:36-8: “Make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it as on a seal: holy to the Lord. Fasten a blue cord to it to attach it to the turban; it is to be on the front of the turban. It will be on Aaron’s forehead... It will be on Aaron’s forehead continually so that they will be acceptable to the Lord."

There is a spiritual 'engraved plate of pure gold' on our forehead. That is equivalent to the flame dancing upon the believers in Acts chapter 2: God's speaking to us in His Holy Word now separates us, forever, from everything else.

#2 This Word consumes us, and burns away everything else. We can hear or see nothing else. This is to enter the cloud of bright glory, what Jonathan Edwards called "the divine and supernatural light". We do not know where we are going, but we are on the Holy Mountain of God, and the Voice is speaking, and we can never go back. We can only go forward; our living should move into full accord with the vision we have received. We no longer can live like we used to. The universe has now changed for us, and we have to respond, and to abide in this 'new creation'.

Like OBW said, It is not about feeling good. It is about living according to what we see in God's Word.

#3 This flame of God should now touch the world. The people in darkness are crying out for light. Beyond that I don't want to add detail. I hope the point is made, nonetheless. Of course it involves coordination and fellowship with our fellow believers. But too many details might distract from the simple and obvious point.

[aron]

Mark 7:37 And they were astonished beyond measure, saying, “He has done all things well. He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak.”

Mark 10:36 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?”

Look at how often the gospels portrays both the disciples and the people of Israel as being surprised and bewildered, even frightened, by Jesus the Nazarene. And in the preceding post (#43) I noted that the presence of the Divine Speaking, whether through intermediary angels or throught the Spirit of God, brought the same effect.

It is possible that the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit" on Azusa Street, the Toronto Blessing, the Lakeland Revival, et al, were unconscious attempts to manifest what people felt they should be experiencing in God's salvation. I don't know. But any charismatic or ecstatic experience should draw me deeper into the Word in both study and discipled living. If not, it is vain.

WL may have tried to tap into charismatic revival with his "eating Jesus" rhetoric of the late '60s & early '70s. Again, I don't know. But there's a danger if we end up chanting footnotes, outlines, musical stanzas, and so forth as a kind of spiritual stand-in; if we judge the "interpreted word" as of more interest than the Word itself.

And I feel that if WL realized that the Holy Word of God was truly of spirit and life as he feigned to do, he never would have dared to wave off dozens and dozens of chapters of the Bible as of no value.

Just because we may not see anything of value in God's Word doesn't mean God isn't speaking. Maybe it just means that "you have not yet struggled unto blood", a la Hebrews 12:4. Maybe we haven't struggled enough yet. With the Bible we shouldn't be like Aesop's fox, who walked away from the unreachable grapes and muttered to himself, "Well, they probably are not very good."

There is a lot of the Bible that I just don't get. For example, Job is largely an unassailable mystery. There are books that I have only a passing acquaintance with. I know they are there, and that is pretty much it. I haven't yet found "honey in the rock". But I believe the rock is there.

And likewise I believe the 'building up' is there. I may not have seen it, or entered deeply. But it is there.