A Memorial to the Church Life

Indiana · 01-11-2009, 08:53 PM

This website was created in 2001 as a memorial to the church life in the earlier days, and to the saints then present who shared the experience.

www.lordsrecovery.us

OBW · 01-12-2009, 09:23 AM

I could not find anything that makes this cite a memorial to the past LC. It looks more like a history — positive in every aspect — of the LC up through at least the death of Lee. The only difference in the past 11 years would be the lack of new stuff from Lee and the committee of BBs that has taken over as they wait for the opportunity to make the LC their own, either together or through the slow expulsion of their own ranks until only the preeminent ones emerge.

Am I a skeptic and a cynic. Probably. I realize that you do seek for a return to the "pure" days of the LC. Unfortunately, I cannot go along because I don't think they really ever existed. The negative, including negative teachings, is entirely mixed into the fabric of the LC. It was even back in those days. We just didn't see it, or didn't want to admit that we did.

Hope · 01-12-2009, 12:06 PM

Hello Mike,

Those of us who in some way were among the founders or early starters were well aware of many problems and shortfalls among us. We did not see ourselves yet as a group of all star christians. But we did not consider that there were things with the heritage from China and Taiwan or WL himself that were off and would lead us down a direction we did not want to take. We absolutely focused on what was good and just hoped for the best. We even had some slogans and cockeyed practices about not paying attention to chicken bones etc. But you can choke on chicken bones. Do not just blame WL and the baggage from Taiwan. The Americans were quite a motely crew from many, many backgrounds who brought in baggage which got mixed into the whole fabric. Later I will give my analysis of all the problems which were thrown into the pot and out came the abusive practices and teachings.

Hope, Don Rutledge

Cal · 01-12-2009, 01:29 PM

I have a lot of respect for Steve. He has endured a lot of hardship for standing up for what he believes. I can on the one hand understand his desire to return to what to him was a heavenly experience on earth, the best experience he has ever had. I have no problem with him chronicling a unique moment in history. The story of the LC movement needs to be preserved.

On the other hand, I wonder if what he is doing is according to the Lord. Not his speaking truth to power, I have no problem with that. Rather his desire to return to the past seems oddly backward. The Lord doesn't need to return to anything, he is the present reality, and he is always moving forward.

Here a problem with the concept of "Recovery" is exposed, it bespeaks a movement backward instead of forward. ("Gimme that old time religion.") Is there anywhere in the Bible where God encourages us to return to the past? I don't know of any.

Nostalgia is a powerful emotion. ("Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear!") The good old days look better and better as they move further and further into the past. I don't doubt Steve's days in the LC were joyous to him. What bothers me is that he seems to feel he can't experience something as good or better outside of a return to the past, as if he knows he's seen the best. ("The 1939 Buick Roadmaster was the best darn car ever made, I don't care what anyone says!"). And it seems quite sad to think that the Lord's ability to give Steve the best experience possible is contingent on the reform of a third-party. He seems to feel his experience is being held hostage by the bad guys. Is that possible? I thought death couldn't hold the resurrection life.

How about returning to Christ and seeing where He leads? A refugee may not be able to sing the Lord's song in a strange land, yet if the land is Christ, rather than a group of people, then one is never in a strange land. I say with all love and respect that Steve seems to be in, at least in part, a cage of his own making.

OBW · 01-12-2009, 03:56 PM

Don,

You are correct. The start of the LC in the US, while eventually influenced by the problems that had gone before in Taiwan, was not entirely formed by that past. And as anyone who looks at the collection of people that comprised the early days can testify, it was an “interesting” group that ranged from some with significant theological training to Jesus people attracted to the new forms, specially the open meeting style and joyous countenance on the faces.

I was really not saying that any particular part was good or bad, or that anyone was always good or bad. I was simply noting that the “memorial” essentially trumpets the LC line right up to Lee’s death while ignoring that there was anything that was ever a problem. The descriptions and verbiage are idyllic. It is not certain that such a totally positive experience ever truly existed except when getting nostalgic for some kind of “good ole days.” Some of it was never more than theory even in Eldon Hall or Anaheim.

I’ve heard it said that the only people who refer to the “good ole days” are those who either weren’t there or forgot that they were formerly called “these tryin’ times.” I don’t think the first generation of the church was any better. The record is not of peace, harmony, and high peak truths. It is of apostles writing to them to straighten out their problems. “All of Asia” left Paul, but were still called churches when the seven letters were written in Revelation. But if a “church” leaves Lee or the LSM, it is no longer a church. That may not have been as clearly so in the 60s or 70s, (or at least not as well known) but it is public record now.

I blame Lee for the core of the leavened teachings. I blame his mixture of money and ministry with church for a lot of the failings and blow-ups with personalities. I blame, at a minimum, his absence of leadership for the slow take-over by Benson and his cronies. For the errors, there is plenty of blame to go around. And for the forms and ways that were so enticing and enjoyable, there is plenty of credit to go around. While I no longer follow the notion that there is a God ordained way for these things, many of the LC ways were, at a minimum, not bad. There is something to study and consider for smaller gatherings of believers ─ not that there should be a “way,” but that some of those ways may be helpful in some cases.

Indiana · 01-12-2009, 06:15 PM

Riches of Christ we should enjoy, and then His fulness we will be
Partaking of His very self, His testimony men will see.

But men cannot not see so clearly, when...

I would like to share the following with you that I prepared today, which includes a sister's testimony.

www.lordsrecovery.us/ChristtheContent.pdf

.................................................. ...................

QUOTE FROM Brother MIKE - ...I was simply noting that the “memorial” essentially trumpets the LC line right up to Lee’s death while ignoring that there was anything that was ever a problem.

On this particular website it is true I focused on the most positive aspects of the "local churches", as it registered within me. My feeling was especially for addressing the earlier period that was more sweet and profound, but there is something to appreciate up thru today. And, as the gospel goes out from them in 2009 I will rejoice that men and women, thousands of them, will be hearing the gospel.

Oregon · 01-13-2009, 05:53 AM

QUOTE FROM IGZY

Quote:

"On the other hand, I wonder if what he is doing is according to the Lord. Not his speaking truth to power, I have no problem with that. Rather his desire to return to the past seems oddly backward. The Lord doesn't need to return to anything, he is the present reality, and he is always moving forward.

Here a problem with the concept of "Recovery" is exposed, it bespeaks a movement backward instead of forward. ("Gimme that old time religion.") Is there anywhere in the Bible where God encourages us to return to the past? I don't know of any. "

Actually if soneones sense of returning to the past is a returning to God and to what His word reveals it is a wonderful thing. When the children of Israel were carried into captivity that was only for a time. Even though God did wonderful things through men like Daniel, to remain in captivity was not the will of God. God's will was for them to return to the land He gave to Abraham and to Jerusalem.

What Steve is longing for is to have God's people meeting in oneness again and recieving one another only on the basis that they are members of the Lord's body. This kind of returning is a very good thing. This is not "ol time religion".

TLFisher · 01-13-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

What Steve is longing for is to have God's people meeting in oneness again and recieving one another only on the basis that they are members of the Lord's body. This kind of returning is a very good thing. This is not "ol time religion".

Amen Oregon! Many I had known that came into the recovery during the late 60's and early 70's, their testimony was just to be a Christian was enough to be recieved. Now?
Sorry to say, but the recovery has become a religious denomination.
Lessons can be learned from other Christian denominations about having a heart to receive others into your assemblies.

Terry

Cal · 01-15-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

What Steve is longing for is to have God's people meeting in oneness again and recieving one another only on the basis that they are members of the Lord's body. This kind of returning is a very good thing. This is not "ol time religion".

I understand that. My point was it's a myth that one must return to the LC church life as it was practiced in the 60s-70 to attain this. As it is a myth that this cannot be found in many places right now that never heard of the LC church life.

You can't recreate the past, you can only apply timeless principles. I think this is what Steve gets at in his last post.

Trying to recreate that time would be like trying to recreate one's childhood. I love this part of William Wordsworths's poem, "Ode on Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood":

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find Strength in what remains behind...

01-11-2009, 08:53 PM	#1
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	A Memorial to the Church Life This website was created in 2001 as a memorial to the church life in the earlier days, and to the saints then present who shared the experience. www.lordsrecovery.us Last edited by Indiana; 01-11-2009 at 11:56 PM.

01-12-2009, 09:23 AM	#2
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: A Memorial to the Church Life I could not find anything that makes this cite a memorial to the past LC. It looks more like a history — positive in every aspect — of the LC up through at least the death of Lee. The only difference in the past 11 years would be the lack of new stuff from Lee and the committee of BBs that has taken over as they wait for the opportunity to make the LC their own, either together or through the slow expulsion of their own ranks until only the preeminent ones emerge. Am I a skeptic and a cynic. Probably. I realize that you do seek for a return to the "pure" days of the LC. Unfortunately, I cannot go along because I don't think they really ever existed. The negative, including negative teachings, is entirely mixed into the fabric of the LC. It was even back in those days. We just didn't see it, or didn't want to admit that we did. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-12-2009, 12:06 PM	#3
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: A Memorial to the Church Life Hello Mike, Those of us who in some way were among the founders or early starters were well aware of many problems and shortfalls among us. We did not see ourselves yet as a group of all star christians. But we did not consider that there were things with the heritage from China and Taiwan or WL himself that were off and would lead us down a direction we did not want to take. We absolutely focused on what was good and just hoped for the best. We even had some slogans and cockeyed practices about not paying attention to chicken bones etc. But you can choke on chicken bones. Do not just blame WL and the baggage from Taiwan. The Americans were quite a motely crew from many, many backgrounds who brought in baggage which got mixed into the whole fabric. Later I will give my analysis of all the problems which were thrown into the pot and out came the abusive practices and teachings. Hope, Don Rutledge

01-12-2009, 01:29 PM	#4
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: A Memorial to the Church Life I have a lot of respect for Steve. He has endured a lot of hardship for standing up for what he believes. I can on the one hand understand his desire to return to what to him was a heavenly experience on earth, the best experience he has ever had. I have no problem with him chronicling a unique moment in history. The story of the LC movement needs to be preserved. On the other hand, I wonder if what he is doing is according to the Lord. Not his speaking truth to power, I have no problem with that. Rather his desire to return to the past seems oddly backward. The Lord doesn't need to return to anything, he is the present reality, and he is always moving forward. Here a problem with the concept of "Recovery" is exposed, it bespeaks a movement backward instead of forward. ("Gimme that old time religion.") Is there anywhere in the Bible where God encourages us to return to the past? I don't know of any. Nostalgia is a powerful emotion. ("Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear!") The good old days look better and better as they move further and further into the past. I don't doubt Steve's days in the LC were joyous to him. What bothers me is that he seems to feel he can't experience something as good or better outside of a return to the past, as if he knows he's seen the best. ("The 1939 Buick Roadmaster was the best darn car ever made, I don't care what anyone says!"). And it seems quite sad to think that the Lord's ability to give Steve the best experience possible is contingent on the reform of a third-party. He seems to feel his experience is being held hostage by the bad guys. Is that possible? I thought death couldn't hold the resurrection life. How about returning to Christ and seeing where He leads? A refugee may not be able to sing the Lord's song in a strange land, yet if the land is Christ, rather than a group of people, then one is never in a strange land. I say with all love and respect that Steve seems to be in, at least in part, a cage of his own making. Last edited by Cal; 01-12-2009 at 02:24 PM.

01-12-2009, 03:56 PM	#5
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: A Memorial to the Church Life Don, You are correct. The start of the LC in the US, while eventually influenced by the problems that had gone before in Taiwan, was not entirely formed by that past. And as anyone who looks at the collection of people that comprised the early days can testify, it was an “interesting” group that ranged from some with significant theological training to Jesus people attracted to the new forms, specially the open meeting style and joyous countenance on the faces. I was really not saying that any particular part was good or bad, or that anyone was always good or bad. I was simply noting that the “memorial” essentially trumpets the LC line right up to Lee’s death while ignoring that there was anything that was ever a problem. The descriptions and verbiage are idyllic. It is not certain that such a totally positive experience ever truly existed except when getting nostalgic for some kind of “good ole days.” Some of it was never more than theory even in Eldon Hall or Anaheim. I’ve heard it said that the only people who refer to the “good ole days” are those who either weren’t there or forgot that they were formerly called “these tryin’ times.” I don’t think the first generation of the church was any better. The record is not of peace, harmony, and high peak truths. It is of apostles writing to them to straighten out their problems. “All of Asia” left Paul, but were still called churches when the seven letters were written in Revelation. But if a “church” leaves Lee or the LSM, it is no longer a church. That may not have been as clearly so in the 60s or 70s, (or at least not as well known) but it is public record now. I blame Lee for the core of the leavened teachings. I blame his mixture of money and ministry with church for a lot of the failings and blow-ups with personalities. I blame, at a minimum, his absence of leadership for the slow take-over by Benson and his cronies. For the errors, there is plenty of blame to go around. And for the forms and ways that were so enticing and enjoyable, there is plenty of credit to go around. While I no longer follow the notion that there is a God ordained way for these things, many of the LC ways were, at a minimum, not bad. There is something to study and consider for smaller gatherings of believers ─ not that there should be a “way,” but that some of those ways may be helpful in some cases. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-12-2009, 06:15 PM	#6
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Re: A sister's experience in Texas Riches of Christ we should enjoy, and then His fulness we will be Partaking of His very self, His testimony men will see. But men cannot not see so clearly, when... I would like to share the following with you that I prepared today, which includes a sister's testimony. www.lordsrecovery.us/ChristtheContent.pdf .................................................. ................... QUOTE FROM Brother MIKE - ...I was simply noting that the “memorial” essentially trumpets the LC line right up to Lee’s death while ignoring that there was anything that was ever a problem. On this particular website it is true I focused on the most positive aspects of the "local churches", as it registered within me. My feeling was especially for addressing the earlier period that was more sweet and profound, but there is something to appreciate up thru today. And, as the gospel goes out from them in 2009 I will rejoice that men and women, thousands of them, will be hearing the gospel. Last edited by Indiana; 01-13-2009 at 12:41 AM.