Help in Becoming "Normal"

Hello. I've been lurking here off and on for awhile, and would like to ask a question for other ex-members of the Local Churches.
Ever since I left many years ago, I have been meeting with a denomination. It is a good church, and it has helped me get over many of my bad experiences in the "recovery."
But there's one category of problems I have, that I think is from having been in the Local CHurches for so long. And I can't get over it. This keeps coming up in my life, and I thought maybe this forum would be a good place to bring it up. I could really use some help.
I have a hard time with things that we used to think were "worldly" in the Local Churches. I mean things like enjoying sports, hobbies, recreation, things like that. I still have a very hard time being what I would call "normal." I'm surrounded by Christians who have no problem just enjoying life. They play sports, or watch sports, and they don't think twice about it. To them it's just a normal part of human life. They don't get bothered in their consciences because they are doing something worldly or un-spiritual. They do things with their families, they play games, they do fun stuff, and for some reason I'm still bothered by all this.
I know this sounds really weird. I wish this weren't a problem, but it is. I would like to be able to watch a football game, or have a favorite TV show, or be with friends that have the same intersts, like a group that has a hobby together. And I just can't, without getting all messed up inside. I feel very condemned, like I should still be a "super-Christian" like I was in the Local Churches, or like I pretended to be. Or I just feel very strange, like I don't fit in anywhere, like I can't participate. Does this make any sense? There are things I'd like to do more of in my life, and inwardly I get bothered. Maybe it's what some people call an "over-senstive conscience". When people talk about things that I really enjoy, I feel like I have to hide it. I remember doing this all the time in the Local Churches. We weren't allowed to be normal. We had to be spiritual about everytyhing. I remember even feeling guilty for reading a novel, and I didn't want anyone there to find out. It's crazy. But I'm still like that after 2 decades, and I can't figure it out.
When I talk to people about this, they basically say just get over it. But it's not that simple.
I forgot to mention holidays. That's still an issue for me. Halloween is coming up, and I'd like to just enjoy it, hand out candy to kids, maybe even dress up. And anyone in the Local Churches remember how that was looked down on. We even called it "Satan's night." In my denomination it's no big deal, people can do what they want. But little things like this still cause really strong reactions inside of me, and very few people understand it.
In the Local Churhces we took that verse about love not the world very seriously, and we didn't do anything that could be the world. Going to a football game was loving the world. Watching a sitcom on TV was loving the world. Listening to rock music on the radio was loving the world. Having a hobby was loving the world. Definitely if you did something with your family on a holidy it was loving the world, unless you were at a training somewhere.
Why am I still dealing with all this garbage? I feel like all those years messed me up, and I don't know how to be just a normal human being. Can anyone relate to this?
How do you become normal? How do you learn to just enjoy life without thinking that God is going to judge you because you should be more spiritual? I didn't mean to ramble on and on like this but I could really use some help.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Romans 8:1

Your experience of the Local Church was somewhat different from mine. People still played sports (we had outtings together at the park, played volleyball and football and baseball), and many (who wanted to) watched football and hockey games together. This wasn't considered being too worldly, it was considered practical. One 'super-spiritual' brother even said "we have to take care of our practical needs, not just our spiritual needs". Actually, they often also used this as a form of outreach to fringe members too...

But that's not helpful.... I feel the way you do. I had a real issue with letting Christmas go while I met with the Local Church, and had an issue taking it back after I finally left. The source of your guilt, I am convinced, is not a conviction from the Holy Spirit, but rather a conviction by indoctrination. You, we, were trained to believe something. That training goes deep. Whether you believe or not that what LSM has built is a cult, you have to admit that ex-members could use counselling services just as a former cult-member does.

I don't know where you live, but I would urge you to seek a Christian counsellor to talk these issues through. Yes, pray and read the Word - but also find someone you can really open up to about your time in the 'Recovery', because most of our Christian friends simply can't relate.

Yours in Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Cal]

movingon,

I can definitely relate and I know a lot of other people can, too. Two decades? Yes, I was affected in the same way. Why so long? I think because I never really dealt with the problem, I just ran from it and hoped it faded. It wasn't until I faced the issue--much with the help of these forums--that I began to be fully set free.

Let me see if I can offer some advice.

• Pray. For all the LRC's talk about walking in the Spirit, most of them don't know the Lord very well. They don't know the difference between God and the words of Lee. They talk fuzzily of the enjoyment of the Lord, but few really deal with the details of their life in intimate conversation with God. They just do things by the LRC book and figure they are doing it right. You have to learn to talk to the Lord about every little thing you are thinking and feeling. You want to know if it's okay to watch a football game? Ask God. I do. Sometimes he says yes and sometimes he says my time should be spent elsewhere.
  
  
• Realize that enjoying things other than God is not bad. The LRC taught that, but they had no scriptural basis for it. God gives us all kinds of things to enjoy (1 Tim 6:17). Creation. Relationships. Love. Marriage. Family. Activities. Learning. Laughter. Life is supposed to be fun. This is even true from an evangelical standpoint. We have to have something in common with people in the world. If we come across like space aliens who don't know how to have a good time that's going to affect our testimony to the world. Secondly, if all the entertainment, sports, art and fun in the world is controlled by the world, then the Devil is going to control the message they send. I don't think God is okay with that.
  
  
• Worldliness does not equal having fun. In the first place, "worldliness" is not defined in the Bible. The term is a Christian invention. The LRC defined it as anything other than Christian or church activities. But, really, is that scriptural? Where does the Bible say that? 1 John says don't love the world, then goes on to define the world as "lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life." That's the world John is saying to not love--the part that embraces lusting and selfish pride. But there are plenty of things which are compatible with Christian virtues. Sports, for example, teach focus, endurance, teamwork, honesty and commitment, as well and many other things. What wrong with that? Paul even used sports as a metaphor for Christian life. Recreation and relaxation are a human need. The key is to not make them the purpose of life. But diversions are part of a healthy life.

Have you ever noticed that purists can never laugh at anything (other than approved jokes)? Fanatics are always humorless, no-fun bores. I very much doubt those are the kind of people God wants us to be.

Hope this helps and welcome to the forum.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by movingon

Hello. I've been lurking here off and on for awhile, and would like to ask a question for other ex-members of the Local Churches.

How do you become normal? How do you learn to just enjoy life without thinking that God is going to judge you because you should be more spiritual? I didn't mean to ramble on and on like this but I could really use some help.

You are not alone, I can surely relate to this. The short answer for me is to ask the Lord.

I have found that I now have very little trouble "enjoying worldly things" when I'm with my wife. While I'm "having fun," I'm also helping her to "have fun," and often this is pleasing to the Lord. Personal "pleasures" are another matter. Sometimes I am perfectly peaceful watching sports, and sometimes I've "had enough."

The difficulty is that the scripture sometimes supports what the LC taught us. Restrictions in the flesh are good for us. We should be concerned that our new found liberties, since leaving the rigors of the LC, do not become an occasion for the flesh.

Many years ago the Lord helped me see thru some of the hypocrisy of LC demands. Since I served with the children occasionally, they talked about their family life. One older brother always condemned pleasures like Cedar Point, an amusement park in Ohio. Then one day his kids were talking about how much fun they had at Cedar Point. Like I said -- hypocrisy -- making demands on others that you have no intention keeping.

In the past we often did not interact with the Lord about all these items since we knew they were all "worldly." We saints were also subtly taught to be spies on one another. Consequently, we were often robbed of the simplicity of asking the Lord about all these items in our life.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by movingon

How do you become normal? How do you learn to just enjoy life without thinking that God is going to judge you because you should be more spiritual? I didn't mean to ramble on and on like this but I could really use some help.

Practically and by experience I would say just be yourself. We're all in different stages in our walk.
I would say during my time in the LC, there were saints who had no problem being themselves (being transparent in relation to the soul life). For the most part, there was pressure to fit the "cookie-cutter mold" of fitting into the church life. Essentially living out the soul-life was in the closet. In the meetings we had to put on a good face while with the saints outside the home. However while in the LC homes and even among the saints I've been blent with in the non-LC home meetings, all partitions come done just to be ourselves as we are.
As far as holidays go, many I know in the LC are out of touch with non-LSM Christianity. At least the non-LSM assemblies I've met with use the 4th of July as fundraisers, abstain from Halloween, promote Thanksgiving, with regards to Christmas and Easter goes, get into what these holidays are really about. When it comes to Memorial Day and Veterans day, giving appreciation to members of the Body who have served and those passed on who have given their lives for the country.
When it comes to hobbies, entertainment, etc, it comes to personal choices. I've known saints in the LC whom I have shared mutual enjoyment in jigsaw puzzles. I've known saints who enjoy movies. As an 8 year old in the Church in Anaheim, my dad and another brother in the church took me and my next youngest flesh brother to our first major league game between the then California Angels and Cleveland Indians. How fitting wouldn't you say Ohio?

I would say for my sanity, I had to cease meeting with the LSM/LC in order to be normal and to be myself without feeling ostracized or condemned.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

As an 8 year old in the Church in Anaheim, my dad and another brother in the church took me and my next youngest flesh brother to our first major league game between the then California Angels and Cleveland Indians. How fitting wouldn't you say Ohio?

Very fitting indeed! I'll tell you why I went to baseball games -- to get hot dogs -- not just any old hot dogs -- but dogs with Stadium Mustard on them. They were the best dogs in the world, well worth the price of admission.

Nowadays I can get my favorite mustard at the local grocery store, so why go to the game? (Baseball is boring like golf!)

Btw, who won the game?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Very fitting indeed! I'll tell you why I went to baseball games -- to get hot dogs -- not just any old hot dogs -- but dogs with Stadium Mustard on them. They were the best dogs in the world, well worth the price of admission.

Nowadays I can get my favorite mustard at the local grocery store, so why go to the game? (Baseball is boring like golf!)

Btw, who won the game?

It was a double-header. If memory serves the brother who went with my dad and my brother is the brother in law of the Little brothers (elders in Nashville and Dunn Loring if they're still there).
Nolan Ryan pitched the first game. A California victory. We got there as the first game was ending. Frank Tananna pitched the second game. Cleveland prevailed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

It was a double-header. If memory serves the brother who went with my dad and my brother is the brother in law of the Little brothers (elders in Nashville and Dunn Loring if they're still there).
Nolan Ryan pitched the first game. A California victory. We got there as the first game was ending. Frank Tananna pitched the second game. Cleveland prevailed.

What a memory you have. I forgot everything but the hotdogs.

[Cal]

movingon,

I would reiterate encouragement to pray. Again, the LRC really didn't teach us to pray. Oh sure, we were supposed to pray that the church would be built and the ministry would spread. But the clear message there was that God shouldn't be bothered with the little details of your life. This belief is in direct opposition to 1 Pet 5:7 which says, "Cast all your cares on him, because he cares for you." Note the word "ALL" there. All cares. Cares about your future, cares about your emotional state, cares about anything. There is nothing too small for taking to God in prayer. This is how we get to know him.

My guess is that you are running these questions about what your lifestyle should be around and around in your head like the spin cycle of a washing machine and never opening the door and letting God sort the laundry. (How's that for a metaphor?) Whenever you have one of these questions, just ask God what he thinks. Ask him for light. Ask him to make you clear. Don't try to figure anything out on your own. Rest in him and sincerely seek his face and he will set you free in ways you never dreamed of. In the meantime, be at peace and enjoy your life. He'll correct you when you need correcting. And it won't be the kind of "I'm probably doing something wrong" condemnation that the Devil majors in. You'll simply feel yourself gently called to a different level .

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by movingon

I mean things like enjoying sports, hobbies, recreation, things like that. I still have a very hard time being what I would call "normal." I'm surrounded by Christians who have no problem just enjoying life. They play sports, or watch sports, and they don't think twice about it. To them it's just a normal part of human life. They don't get bothered in their consciences because they are doing something worldly or un-spiritual. They do things with their families, they play games, they do fun stuff, and for some reason I'm still bothered by all this.

Being around other Christians is an odd experience at first I think because the LC system is more than a church - it's a lifestyle. It demands a 100% commitment. Activities and friendships outside of the church are not encouraged except if you are trying to get a friend to join the church.

So your social life (such as it is) is tied up with people in the church and the narrative is the LSM curriculum. So after a meeting on Sunday you might go over to someone's house for lunch and what do you talk about? The message from that morning or the upcoming conference or some other "spiritual" thing related to the church. It never stops. Meetings, conferences, trainings etc are your social life and the content within that framework is LSM curriculum.

After a Sunday morning meeting outside the LC system you may hear a brief discussion about the message. "Wasn't the sermon good?" Or "I liked this part but don't agree with what he said about..." And then you'll start talking about the football game yesterday and what a mistake the QB made in the 4th quarter. Or the skiing trip you just got back from. Or how much you liked that indie movie that was a sleeper but just won an Academy award and now will get wide release. In other words, the narrative of the church members lives is not dominated by the messages given on Sunday mornings or whenever. They don't feel and are not made to feel obligated to keep repeating it over and over to each other. The time it is given occupies a segment of their lives and hopefully the good parts affect their lives afterwards but that's it.

So to those in the LC system occupying your time with church activities and non-stop spiritual talk = not being worldly. But to most Christians applying what they have learned in church to their lives as they do various activities = not being worldly. The latter makes more sense to me because it more closely matches real human life as we live it without artificiality.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

It never stops. Meetings, conferences, trainings etc are your social life and the content within that framework is LSM curriculum.

I think it's more than ironic that the end of being transformed into the image of Christ in the local churches produces people that go to meetings, conferences, and training's all the time ... with some "Oh Lord Jesuses" in between. Some image that is, to be transformed into. What a joke!

[countmeworthy]

Hello again y'all,

Had it not been for the couple of pms's I received yesterday, I would not have popped in. But here I am.

To the question, how to be normal after leaving the LC...I will share my experience as briefly as possible. But know it is a journey.

The pendulum for me me has swung very high at both ends of the spectrum.

What I have learned is the most important thing in my life is my relationship with God. He is all that matters to me. He is not religious.

I personally much prefer to hang out with seeking non believers or young Christians hungry for the WAY, the TRUTH, Hi is LIFE and His Love.

While I do not advocate drinking, the Lord will not clobber you if you have a beer or a glass of wine now and then. The Spirit guides us.

My goal in life is to lead people to Christ and to teach them how to develop an intimate relationship with HIM through His Word. I do not point them to an organized denomination or non denominational church. I enjoy small fellowship groups very much. Sometimes I share, sometimes I listen. We are not always on the same page.

You mentioned Halloween. For the last 3-4 years, I write scriptures on index cards. I begin a week in advance. I sit outside with my next door neighbor and as we hand out candy, I also drop an index card or two with scriptures.

I get a lot of thank you for the scriptures.

I like to read about the illuminati and what they are up to. We are heading towards a one world government, one world RELIGION, and one world currency. (Revelation 13). I have friends I "play" with. We crack each other up. I have a knack for mimicking people without being mean spirited. I can be very witty too.

This is my normalcy. It may not e anyone else's. But it is MINE. I embrace it. Way too many people are lost. They need to have an intimate relationship with Christ.

I went way longer than I wanted to.

In closing, whatever you do and in whatever you think, do ALL to the Glory, and Honor of our God and Creator. Have fun. Laugh a lot, Embrace Life and remember God wants and will bring someone into your life to minister to you or for you to minister to that person.

Thanks for reading my personal testimony.

Blessings,

Carolina G

[MacDuff]

Igzy

This brings to light a major LRC error: Over-conditioning members with LRC interpretations without letting the members have the opportunity to decide for themselves whether those things make sense or not. In other words, lack of freedom to make up one's own mind. That's one of the best ways to replace the leading of the Spirit with man's indoctrination, and obviously one the LRC majors in.

That is very true. But no less true in any other Christian denomination, if one doesn’t take care. I’ve had Protestants tell me to read the Bible for myself concerning an issue. Not realizing until too late that the view I came to in relation to the passage in question wasn’t what they intended when they said it. I have received a lot of human judgments over that.

Denominationalism exists because certain people want to do your thinking for you. Want to do Jesus’ thinking for him. We need to listen to one source, and that source is not us or anyone like us. Too many trumpets sounding in Christianity doesn’t make for normal living. Any more than it does in the secular realm.

So we are in agreement on this issue. Which should be helpful to Movingon.

But not just in relation to the Recovery. In relation to all Christian denominations. It will do no good to come out of the Recovery and then fall into the same trap in a different Christian denomination. Listen to God and Jesus Christ. Walk according to the Spirit so that one can listen effectively. The human spirit alone and the human mind alone doesn’t hear so good. That connection to the Holy Spirit is necessary for clarity. It is a choice, it takes conscious effort, to put one’s mind in the direction of the Spirit, to think on the things of the Spirit instead of the flesh. Be careful of the preaching of man. Don’t accept what God does not. There is only one Shepherd that leads to grass and is the grass. The most that Christian shepherds can do is what we are doing here at this moment. Lead to the Great Shepherd and to the grass that is Jesus Christ himself.

With Countmeworthy I say, do everything to the glory of God, making sure it is for his glory and not someone else’s or one’s own. Follow Jesus Christ and do what he tells you to do. Have fun with the realization that he is walking by your side. That will help keep you from having the wrong kind of fun. What would Jesus do? Why not just ask him? Surely if there’s any reality at all to what we’re saying, he will answer you.

MacDuff

[countmeworthy]

Wow Macduff!!
What an excellent post. Everything you wrote resonated with my spirit and much of my own personal experience. You nailed it!!! Right on the head!

Blessings!

Carolina G

Originally Posted by MacDuff

That is very true. But no less true in any other Christian denomination, if one doesn’t take care. I’ve had Protestants tell me to read the Bible for myself concerning an issue. Not realizing until too late that the view I came to in relation to the passage in question wasn’t what they intended when they said it. I have received a lot of human judgments over that.

Denominationalism exists because certain people want to do your thinking for you. Want to do Jesus’ thinking for him. We need to listen to one source, and that source is not us or anyone like us. Too many trumpets sounding in Christianity doesn’t make for normal living. Any more than it does in the secular realm.

So we are in agreement on this issue. Which should be helpful to Movingon.

But not just in relation to the Recovery. In relation to all Christian denominations. It will do no good to come out of the Recovery and then fall into the same trap in a different Christian denomination. Listen to God and Jesus Christ. Walk according to the Spirit so that one can listen effectively. The human spirit alone and the human mind alone doesn’t hear so good. That connection to the Holy Spirit is necessary for clarity. It is a choice, it takes conscious effort, to put one’s mind in the direction of the Spirit, to think on the things of the Spirit instead of the flesh. Be careful of the preaching of man. Don’t accept what God does not. There is only one Shepherd that leads to grass and is the grass. The most that Christian shepherds can do is what we are doing here at this moment. Lead to the Great Shepherd and to the grass that is Jesus Christ himself.

With Countmeworthy I say, do everything to the glory of God, making sure it is for his glory and not someone else’s or one’s own. Follow Jesus Christ and do what he tells you to do. Have fun with the realization that he is walking by your side. That will help keep you from having the wrong kind of fun. What would Jesus do? Why not just ask him? Surely if there’s any reality at all to what we’re saying, he will answer you.

MacDuff

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Wow Macduff!!
What an excellent post. Everything you wrote resonated with my spirit and much of my own personal experience. You nailed it!!! Right on the head!

Blessings!

Carolina G

AMEN!

[MacDuff]

Awareness

“A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin.”
H. L. Mencken


Do the gospels say anything about the Recovery way of doing things? Since the ekklesia as the community of believers didn’t as yet exist, and was only mentioned twice by Jesus as something future....no, can’t say as I do. The whole idea of the Recovery, unless I miss my guess, was intended to be a recovery of what Lee called the practical expression of the Church. Well, since I don’t see the ekklesia and the Church as being the same thing, which Lee did....no, can’t say as I see it anywhere in the New Testament.

Christians, on the other hand, would say that the Recovery is a degraded version of the Historic Christian Faith (Catholic/Orthodox), or the Historic Biblical Christian faith (Protestant). It seems what goes around comes around. As Lee judged Christianity and the Christians therein, so also has Christianity and the Christians therein judged Lee and his Recovery.

In my opinion, the Recovery is the creation of one man, Witness Lee. He interpreted the Bible allegorically to conform to his own creation. Why is that seen as so unusual? Christians have been interpreting the Bible for centuries to conform it to their own version of reality. Catholics and Protestants. They have that practice in common. Whether the Bible is interpreted by so called “Church Fathers”, or by contemporary Christian rulers, it is still interpreted. In my opinion, if the Bible is to have any real meaning at all, meaning that could be called its own, it certainly won’t be discovered by interpretation that is just the exercise of the mind of men upon the Bible. And the ludicrous idea (ludicrous in my opinion) that the different interpretations of men are based on something Spiritual? Well....

Jesus’ way was to choose 12 men whom he taught, who understood little of what he taught. One could conceivably equate that with “going to meetings, conferences, and training's”. Post 1st century version. Gatherings in buildings built for the purpose has been the practice of Christianity also for centuries. Wouldn’t you say that the Sermon Service of Protestants is very like a meeting or a conference or a training? Lee was, after all, a Protestant by his own admission.

But to refer to going around calling Oh Lord Jesus as Obsessive–compulsive disorder.... Well, I remind you that Atheists think that just believing in Jesus Christ as the answer to personal sinfulness is to be equated with taking opium. But you’ll have to take calling on Jesus up with Paul who originally perpetuated the idea (1Cor 1:2).

The consistent practice of cynicism could be considered a form of OCD. A form of ANB, abnormal negative behaviour. And that’s what this thread is all about, isn’t it? So your ideal was shattered by someone in the Recovery. We all have to go through that sort of thing. I went through that a lot in Christianity. It helps us to differentiate reality from non-reality. Didn’t make me a cynic. Just showed me a better way to go. I attend a Christian Church and don’t say anything about what I believe. And the necessity for that is pretty abnormal to me. But the reality is that Christianity is what it is. Doesn’t mean that a person who prefers to go to meetings, conferences and trainings, that they think is applicable to them, or is something they enjoy doing, is necessarily a bad thing. Secular people do it all the time pertaining to what interests them and what they think is applicable to them. At least they’re doing something. At least they have an interest in something more than just their own bodily functions. More than one could say for most pew potatoes.

MacDuff

[Cal]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I like to read about the illuminati and what they are up to. We are heading towards a one world government, one world RELIGION, and one world currency. (Revelation 13). I have friends I "play" with. We crack each other up. I have a knack for mimicking people without being mean spirited. I can be very witty too.

This is my normalcy. It may not e anyone else's. But it is MINE. I embrace it. Way too many people are lost. They need to have an intimate relationship with Christ.

I went way longer than I wanted to.

In closing, whatever you do and in whatever you think, do ALL to the Glory, and Honor of our God and Creator. Have fun. Laugh a lot, Embrace Life and remember God wants and will bring someone into your life to minister to you or for you to minister to that person.

Thanks for reading my personal testimony.

Blessings,

Carolina G

Good stuff, Carol. God made us all different. We are supposed to become like God, not become God. He likes variety, obviously. Would anyone want all their kids to be exactly alike? Otherwise, what would be the point of having more than one?

It is very liberating to reach a place where you no longer mistake self-loathing for humility and self-esteem for pride. God loves us, so in a healthy sense we should like and love ourselves.

The Bible says love your neighbor as yourself. So that means to love yourself as your neighbor. How are you to love your neighbor? You are supposed to see him as a unique creation made in the image of God who has value and purpose. You are supposed to say kind and encouraging words to him. You are supposed to give him a break and not be harsh with him. So should we treat ourselves.

As Norman Vincent Peale said, "Learn to like yourself. You are going to have to spend a lot of time with yourself, so you might as well get something out of the relationship."