Tips on Making Leaving the LC Easier

[Cal]

My desire for posting on this forum has always been simply to help people over the hump of being able to deal psychologically with leaving the LC. Mostly I have done this by arguing that many LC teachings and beliefs are unbiblical, illogical and untenable.

I hope that has been helpful, but I’d like to start a thread to provide some advice for people who are considering leaving or have left and are still having trouble moving on.

Here are some things which I had to learn the hard way. I think they will help you make the transition more easily:

1. Pray. Pray a lot. The fact is most LCers don’t know how to pray for themselves or their family in a detailed and focused way. This has to be learned if you are going to move on. Get practical and specific with your prayers. Ask God to show you what is real and what is false. Ask him to protect you from spiritual attack. Ask him to fill you with peace and joy. Ask him about specific LC teachings which are holding you back. Ask him about the local ground, spiritual authority and any other teachings you have taken for granted. You’ll be amazed how he opens your eyes.
   
   There is one mediator between man and God--and it is not Witness Lee, the BBs, Titus Chu, or your former elders or small group leader. It’s Jesus. We have direct access to God. 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us. That means God himself will lead us. Call in this promise on your life. Pray about everything. God will answer.
   
   
2. Get to know God. The LC mindset is not truly conducive to getting to know God. God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being. Throw that teaching in the trash. It’s keeping you from knowing God personally. God is a person we can get to know. Eternal life is knowing God. That means getting to know his thoughts, feelings and tendencies. He will communicate these to you if you stop thinking about him all the time as water, bread or a “dose.” Sure in a sense he is all these things. But they are all metaphors for what he is to us personally. First and foremost he is a person. Talk to him and think of him as a person as real and approachable as your wife or best friend. Because he is actually more so that than anyone.
   
   
3. Read the Bible and throw away the footnotes. Read a lot of different Christian authors. Read carefully, but with an open, uncritical mind. Give God a chance to say something to you that you don't expect. Notice how all writers and teachers are a little different and are just expressing their points of view. Then realize that's all Witness Lee was doing, whether or not he thought so himself.
   
   
4. Focus on the first and second commandments. Love God and love people. We all know we are supposed to love God. But LCers have a strange way of loving people. You can’t love people if you treat and think of them as aliens from another planet. I think the best thing for any LCer would be to have a gay couple move in next door and to hear God telling them to love and be good neighbors to that couple (this actually happened to me), to learn to see them as people just like you, because the fact is that’s how God sees them. God loves everyone. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Learn to look at everyone the way God sees them. Love the bum on the street. Love the guy with the bandana, tattoos and piercings. Stop calling them “the unbelievers.” Love Christians of all stripes. Stop calling them "those in Christianity." That’s just elitism and snobbery, and it is not Jesus.
   
   
5. Banish fear and stay positive. Faith and fear have something in common. They both ask us to believe something in the future that we cannot see. Fear is the enemy's tactic. Faith is God's way. When you begin to notice fear creeping around, banish it, and stand in faith that God wants to set you free.
   
   Tell yourself that you are God’s child and he loves you and has a purpose for you. Don’t give in to negative self-talk or condemnation. Read positive Christian writers like Norman Vincent Peale, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen (yes, Joel Osteen!).
   
   
6. Start at home. If you don’t love your spouse, your kids, your family, friends and neighbors, and serve them like Christ would, then forget about the church. God is practical. Our mission field starts with the person who sleeps with us, then moves to our kids, and so forth. Start there. Be a good spouse and parent. If you can’t do that the rest is just an act anyway. The good news is starting at home is life-sized. Anyone can do it.
   
   
7. Find some new Christian friends and just love them in a simple way. You probably think you are a superior class of Christian and more transformed and so much clearer than all those poor, clueless non-LC Christians, don’t you? Boy, are you in for a shock. You are not near as transformed as you think. In fact, you probably aren’t much transformed at all. I don’t think I experienced any real transformation until recently in my life. Get humble and get some new friends and companions. Let God teach you through them. You might be surprised and probably will be.
   
   
8. Forget about spirituality and high-sounding doctrines, and just live a life of love and service. The fact is the LC is all about being spiritual, and I don’t mean that as a compliment. For example, when the LC thinks of sacrifice they talk about “taking the cross” and the emphasis is all about crushing the self so you can even be more of a spiritual giant than you already think you are. But sacrifice is actually all about doing something for someone else’s sake, for their benefit. In other words, it’s about love. That’s what you should focus on.
   
   High-sounding doctrines can also make you think you are very spiritual, because you can see… The Vision. Don’t kid yourself. The general parameters of the LC vision are more or less correct. Yes, God is perfecting a people for his glory. But all the hoo-hah about The New Jerusalem is mostly just overkill and bling. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. And when you really start caring about people you begin to lose interest in detailed studies of The New Jerusalem and that kind of thing because they are often a kind of spiritual masturbation. (Did he really say that?! Yes, I did.)
   
   
9. Forgive and move on. Don’t hold grudges and don’t let past LC offenses steal your joy. Shake the dust off your feet. There is too much to live for to be bound to the past. Pray for your old friends in the LC.
   
   
10. Pray. See step one. Keeping praying. Pray all the time. Pray about everything. You will be amazed to find out how much God truly cares about you and is on your side.

Stay positive and full of faith. I hope and pray you will find peace, joy and purpose in your post-LC life like you never dreamed of. With God's help I know you will.

"I prayed to the Lord, and he answered me. He freed me from all my fears." Psalm 34:4

[bearbear]

I've been lurking in this forum (including the previous one on bereans) for more than two years I'd have to say I'd probably still be in the local churches if it were not for you all. I know it may seem like the posts you're writing are falling on deaf ears, but I'm sure there are many other lurkers out there like me. So please keep posting!

I'm sure there are many in the local churches that know things aren't quite right but still cannot leave. I think I was one of them and I can say the reason it took so long for me to leave was because I bought into the narrative of other christian groups and churches being degraded and spiritually superficial. This was definitely the biggest hurdle for me to overcome.

Eventually, I came to realize that I had to see for myself if this attitude was warranted. And after visiting many churches in our area with an open mind and reading other christian authors recommended in the forum I could no longer justify the spiritual pride we held in the LC. My wife and I are now meeting in a charismatic church that is humble and receiving towards all christians. Although there were some hurdles along the way we now are really loving our new church life, and so thankful to God for opening our eyes and for bringing us out of the LC.

To some extent I can even say I feel angry at Witness Lee for having deceived so many dear believers and myself for having bought into the lie for so long-- but that's probably for another thread.

So my input would be to challenge those on the fence of staying or leaving the LC to just go try out other churches and see for yourself! Personally I found charismatic churches to work the best for my wife and I because there tend to be more unabashed crazy jesus lovers there (at the church we now go to, members would regularly stay and pray for one another for up to an hour even after the meeting was over!) and many there were influenced by Andrew Murray / Watchman Nee and we weren't ready to compromise on tripartite man teaching and emphasis of the human spirit .

But mostly, thank you everyone for posting here!

[OBW]

bearbear,

Thanks for the encouragement. It does seem that we are speaking to the wind sometimes.

My journey was quite different (you can read some about it in my "blog"), and charismatic was my pre-LRC group but is not where I went afterward. It is interesting how so many factors take us in divergent directions yet still within the family of faith.

I do have one question. Your comment near the end concerning Andrew Murray and Watchman Nee was unclear. You said "we weren't ready to compromise on tripartite man teaching and emphasis of the human spirit." Are you saying that you were wanting to retain that teaching or avoid it? Not being "ready to compromise" could go either way depending on your initial position.

[bearbear]

Meant to say retain it, but compromise was probably too strong of a word.

One of my wife's complaints about one of the churches we met in before settling on the charismatic one was that they never mentioned the human spirit. I couldn't really blame her since we've been in the LC so long that even I had to admit I was a little uncomfortable even though I told her it wasn't a problem for me because I know that praying and having a real relationship of God is more important than insisting on and verbalizing the 'science' behind it over and over again.

So it was more of an added 'plus' than a requirement.

[Cal]

Adapting to a non-LC church

I wanted to go on to talk about finding a new church after leaving the LC. I intentionally didn’t mention church much in my first post. The fact is, the view of the church is distorted in the LC, and in so doing the believer’s relationship to it is distorted as well.

The LC makes the believer’s involvement with the building of the church a matter of prime importance. But the Bible does not make this emphasis. In fact, Jesus himself barely mentioned the church. When the Bible does mention church-building, it is usually with the thought that God is doing the building, not us.

If you really go back and view the overall thought of the NT, especially the ministry of Jesus, you see that two main matters are stressed--first, our devotion and service to God, and second, our attitude and actions toward other people. Jesus focused on a holy life toward God and people. (Again, love God and love people.) But he barely mentioned the church as a thing or goal in and of itself.

This is not to say the church is not important, just that if you are supposedly taking care of the church while suing the pants off any other believer you please it’s clear you are way off the rails of what the NT is about. History and experience show that overemphasis on the church leads naturally to overemphasis and a defensive, even aggressive, posture about your particular church. This is precisely the error of the LC.

I think this is the reason Jesus did not talk about the church much, because to him the point is God and people, not God and some ideal institution.

Still, the Bible does reveal the church, so what is it about? The church is simply wherever believers are gathered in the Lord’s name. The church is all the believers through history. It’s also all the believers alive today. It’s also all the believers in the USA, and all of them in your city. And when thirty believers gather for worship and teaching in a rented storefront, that’s the church, too. None of us have the right or wisdom to look at a group of believers meeting and say they are not the church.

The church is a place where believers encourage and support each other, and grow together. It’s also a place where outsiders can observe these believers and their relationship with God. So in a sense, churches are ministry stations, that is of Jesus’ ministry. They do not exist for themselves, but for the sake of others, both believers and non-believers. And they come in all shapes and sizes.

After you leave the LC and are searching for a new church home, here are some things to think about:

1. Expect all levels of devotion. You'll meet some very devoted Christians in your new church, and you'll meet some that rarely read the Bible. You'll hear about affairs and divorces and guys that go to Hooters on business lunches. In short, it will probably be the church in Corinth. Guess what? Corinth was still a church. Learn to operate under the big tent of the whole church. You really don't have a choice, unless you want to start another superstar exclusive church that tries to run off everyone who is not 100%, like the LC did. But then where would you be? Yep, right back where you started.
   
   
2. Don’t expect the emphasis on The Church that you saw in the LC. Evangelical Christianity is called that for a reason. The emphasis there is on outreach and being a testimony. This is very healthy. Don’t expect to convert anyone to the Nee/Lee view of it all being about producing the Bride. Let God worry about the Bride and you worry about loving and serving people who need Jesus.
   
   And don’t be bothered if you find that churches emphasize particular works, like overseas mission work, etc. As long as they don’t make participation in such work a requirement of membership you shouldn’t have much to worry about. But don’t expect their emphasis to be The Building of the Church. For one thing, in evangelical circles these days this is looked upon as being inward-looking and self-centered. And the fact is, it is.
   
   
3. Don’t expect the emphasis on spirituality you saw in the LC. By that I mean don’t start talking about things like “the Triune God in the tripartite man” and expect people to go “Ooooo, wow!” Rather, if you do that expect them to start backing away from you and saying, “Okeee, time to go.”
   
   Expect God to be presented as more personal and everyday. Experienced pastors aren’t stupid. They know that high-falutin’ spirituality sounds pretentious and makes new people uncomfortable. Expect things to be understated and referred to in everyday terms. You will hear more about “changed lives” than you will about “being infused with the divine nature.” Don’t let that bother you. God is working regardless of how it’s referred to.
   
   
4. Don’t be bothered by the lack of “popcorn” testimonies. Despite the LC’s oft-stated belief that such a thing is necessary for the church to be built, the fact is, it isn’t. An LCer posted on the other forum that the church could not be built in “Christianity” because the “members of the Body” were not allowed to function there. By “functioning” he meant hopping up and saying something in a meeting, usually just regurgitating something that was taught. This kind of “functioning,” however, opens the door to all kinds of problems in large gatherings with many guests. We could argue all day whether it’s tenable, but what’s not arguable is that such a thing is required for legitimate churchhood. It isn’t. Expect to be free to share in Bible studies, Sunday schools, small groups and so forth. Don’t expect it, or worry about it, in larger meetings.
   
   
5. Don’t expect people to talk about the message after the service. It just doesn’t happen much. People listen and take in the message seriously, but they rarely discuss it in depth afterwards. Don’t expect a lot of “I really enjoyed….” Rather, expect “How are the kids doing?” and more typical conversation. It’s just the way it is. Learn to be human and get to know your new friends.
   
   Also, don't expect everyone you don't know to look you in the eye and say "Praise the Lord!" Expect people to have the more typical behavior of not acting like they know you when they don't. It doesn't mean they don't love you, it just means they are normal. Just be friendly yourself and before long people will be greeting you, though probably not with a "Praise the Lord!" Get over it.
   
   
6. Don’t expect your new pastor to expect you to get permission from him for every little thing. If you want to see a totally quizzical look, just ask your new pastor if it’s okay to go on vacation and miss couple of weekends of meetings. In short, don’t expect him to lord it over you the way LC elders did.
   
   If you want to start a work or ministry, I’m sure they will be supportive of it, though they may not want to work it into the Sunday morning rotation. This one messed with me for a long time. I was just uncomfortable “doing my own thing.” Yet, the only alternative was to get the church leaders fully onboard with it. (Not to mention to take time to even talk about it.) Finally, I realized they did not expect every legitimate work to be under the umbrella of their approval or notice. If I felt to start something, it was okay with them, but they couldn’t always dedicate church resources to it.
   
   This is actually quite liberating, not to mention normal. But it is very different from the way things are done in the LC. Which makes one wonder how LCers can make the claim that it's in "Christianity" where the members are suppressed. Such logic is just way over my head.
   

[ToGodAlone]

Man it's been a long time since I've posted anything here...

Igzy, thanks for posting all this. These are all fantastic tips. Hopefully people who are considering leaving the LC can read these and be encouraged.

[HBJ]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Adapting to a non-LC church
Don’t expect your new pastor to expect you to get permission from him for every little thing. If you want to see a totally quizzical look, just ask your new pastor if it’s okay to go on vacation and miss couple of weekends of meetings. In short, don’t expect him to lord it over you the way LC elders did.

Yikes folks, I was in the LC from 1970-1980 and never had to get permission for every little thing as Igzy mentions. It never even entered my mind to ask! What localities did this happen in?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Yikes folks, I was in the LC from 1970-1980 and never had to get permission for every little thing as Igzy mentions. It never even entered my mind to ask! What localities did this happen in?

I found Igzy's entire quote from several years ago. Maybe the best succinct list of it's kind ever posted on this popcorn stand! I think most of us who were in the Local Church of Witness Lee for any length of time can relate to these points. To be sure, some might have experienced these in different degrees, depending upon their locality, the elders and the different brothers and sisters they may have been closer to.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Igzy

Adapting to a non-LC church

I wanted to go on to talk about finding a new church after leaving the LC. I intentionally didn’t mention church much in my first post. The fact is, the view of the church is distorted in the LC, and in so doing the believer’s relationship to it is distorted as well.

The LC makes the believer’s involvement with the building of the church a matter of prime importance. But the Bible does not make this emphasis. In fact, Jesus himself barely mentioned the church. When the Bible does mention church-building, it is usually with the thought that God is doing the building, not us.

If you really go back and view the overall thought of the NT, especially the ministry of Jesus, you see that two main matters are stressed--first, our devotion and service to God, and second, our attitude and actions toward other people. Jesus focused on a holy life toward God and people. (Again, love God and love people.) But he barely mentioned the church as a thing or goal in and of itself.

This is not to say the church is not important, just that if you are supposedly taking care of the church while suing the pants off any other believer you please it’s clear you are way off the rails of what the NT is about. History and experience show that overemphasis on the church leads naturally to overemphasis and a defensive, even aggressive, posture about your particular church. This is precisely the error of the LC.

I think this is the reason Jesus did not talk about the church much, because to him the point is God and people, not God and some ideal institution.

Still, the Bible does reveal the church, so what is it about? The church is simply wherever believers are gathered in the Lord’s name. The church is all the believers through history. It’s also all the believers alive today. It’s also all the believers in the USA, and all of them in your city. And when thirty believers gather for worship and teaching in a rented storefront, that’s the church, too. None of us have the right or wisdom to look at a group of believers meeting and say they are not the church.

The church is a place where believers encourage and support each other, and grow together. It’s also a place where outsiders can observe these believers and their relationship with God. So in a sense, churches are ministry stations, that is of Jesus’ ministry. They do not exist for themselves, but for the sake of others, both believers and non-believers. And they come in all shapes and sizes.

After you leave the LC and are searching for a new church home, here are some things to think about:

1. Expect all levels of devotion. You'll meet some very devoted Christians in your new church, and you'll meet some that rarely read the Bible. You'll hear about affairs and divorces and guys that go to Hooters on business lunches. In short, it will probably be the church in Corinth. Guess what? Corinth was still a church. Learn to operate under the big tent of the whole church. You really don't have a choice, unless you want to start another superstar exclusive church that tries to run off everyone who is not 100%, like the LC did. But then where would you be? Yep, right back where you started.
   
   
2. Don’t expect the emphasis on The Church that you saw in the LC. Evangelical Christianity is called that for a reason. The emphasis there is on outreach and being a testimony. This is very healthy. Don’t expect to convert anyone to the Nee/Lee view of it all being about producing the Bride. Let God worry about the Bride and you worry about loving and serving people who need Jesus.
   
   And don’t be bothered if you find that churches emphasize particular works, like overseas mission work, etc. As long as they don’t make participation in such work a requirement of membership you shouldn’t have much to worry about. But don’t expect their emphasis to be The Building of the Church. For one thing, in evangelical circles these days this is looked upon as being inward-looking and self-centered. And the fact is, it is.
   
   
3. Don’t expect the emphasis on spirituality you saw in the LC. By that I mean don’t start talking about things like “the Triune God in the tripartite man” and expect people to go “Ooooo, wow!” Rather, if you do that expect them to start backing away from you and saying, “Okeee, time to go.”
   
   Expect God to be presented as more personal and everyday. Experienced pastors aren’t stupid. They know that high-falutin’ spirituality sounds pretentious and makes new people uncomfortable. Expect things to be understated and referred to in everyday terms. You will hear more about “changed lives” than you will about “being infused with the divine nature.” Don’t let that bother you. God is working regardless of how it’s referred to.
   
   
4. Don’t be bothered by the lack of “popcorn” testimonies. Despite the LC’s oft-stated belief that such a thing is necessary for the church to be built, the fact is, it isn’t. An LCer posted on the other forum that the church could not be built in “Christianity” because the “members of the Body” were not allowed to function there. By “functioning” he meant hopping up and saying something in a meeting, usually just regurgitating something that was taught. This kind of “functioning,” however, opens the door to all kinds of problems in large gatherings with many guests. We could argue all day whether it’s tenable, but what’s not arguable is that such a thing is required for legitimate churchhood. It isn’t. Expect to be free to share in Bible studies, Sunday schools, small groups and so forth. Don’t expect it, or worry about it, in larger meetings.
   
   
5. Don’t expect people to talk about the message after the service. It just doesn’t happen much. People listen and take in the message seriously, but they rarely discuss it in depth afterwards. Don’t expect a lot of “I really enjoyed….” Rather, expect “How are the kids doing?” and more typical conversation. It’s just the way it is. Learn to be human and get to know your new friends.
   
   Also, don't expect everyone you don't know to look you in the eye and say "Praise the Lord!" Expect people to have the more typical behavior of not acting like they know you when they don't. It doesn't mean they don't love you, it just means they are normal. Just be friendly yourself and before long people will be greeting you, though probably not with a "Praise the Lord!" Get over it.
   
   
6. Don’t expect your new pastor to expect you to get permission from him for every little thing. If you want to see a totally quizzical look, just ask your new pastor if it’s okay to go on vacation and miss couple of weekends of meetings. In short, don’t expect him to lord it over you the way LC elders did.
   
   If you want to start a work or ministry, I’m sure they will be supportive of it, though they may not want to work it into the Sunday morning rotation. This one messed with me for a long time. I was just uncomfortable “doing my own thing.” Yet, the only alternative was to get the church leaders fully onboard with it. (Not to mention to take time to even talk about it.) Finally, I realized they did not expect every legitimate work to be under the umbrella of their approval or notice. If I felt to start something, it was okay with them, but they couldn’t always dedicate church resources to it.
   
   This is actually quite liberating, not to mention normal. But it is very different from the way things are done in the LC. Which makes one wonder how LCers can make the claim that it's in "Christianity" where the members are suppressed. Such logic is just way over my head.

---------------------------------------------

in the process of registering. very grateful for the site.
My perspective is different: how would you sugget helping someone you love, a family member, exit the LC if this person is a full time meeting attender & conference attender and whose greatest desire is to attending full time training in Anaheim? I believe that the LC will be destructive in the long run and after 2 years of full time training it may be exceedingly difficult to UNdo such a worldview and practice of religion.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

in the process of registering. very grateful for the site.
My perspective is different: how would you sugget helping someone you love, a family member, exit the LC if this person is a full time meeting attender & conference attender and whose greatest desire is to attending full time training in Anaheim? I believe that the LC will be destructive in the long run and after 2 years of full time training it may be exceedingly difficult to UNdo such a worldview and practice of religion.

Greetings.

I will pass on what the Holy Spirit has taught me.

Stay connected to the Lord. It sounds like a no brainer and redundant. So I will attempt to explain. Don't fixate yourself on your loved one. Don't try to pull them out of the LRC by explaining its pitfalls. I have friends who are die hard Catholics. I was raised Catholic. When I was in the LC in the 70s and learned the Catholic church was represented by the church in Thyatira, etc.. I "warned" my family and friends. I did not want to step into a catholic church building. I could have gotten cookies!!!

These days, when talking or fellowshipping, we speak of the Lord not the church. I share scriptures if the conversation calls for it. If they bring up praying to Mary, I don't argue with them but if the opportunity arises I explain to them where the "Hail Mary" came from. I take them to Luke 1:26-28 where the Angel Gabriel greets Mary and tells her the LORD is with her. She is blessed and favored among all women.

I encourage them to address the Lord Jesus when they pray for He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No person can get to the Father but by Him. (of course we can pray/address the Father, the Holy Spirit for EL-Shsddai is Almighty God.)

My point is, when you talk/fellowship with your loved one, focus on Christ. Keep your eyes on Jesus. It is futile convincing them the LRC has done more harm than good.

Be patient when they talk about Brother Lee, the Blendeds, the footnotes, the messages.

Pray for the LORD to draw them to HIMSELF, that they would fall in Love with Christ, the Living Word of God. Pray that when they read, study the Word, they would hear the Voice of God, not the voice of Lee or the blendeds.

And finally ask the Holy Spirit of God to bless you with Wisdom, Revelation and insight. Ask the Lord to bless and anoint your words so when you fellowship with your loved one, it will be CHRIST IN you speaking through you. Pray your loved one sees Christ in you.

Hope this helps some.

Blessings and Peace,

Carol Garza

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

in the process of registering. very grateful for the site.
My perspective is different: how would you sugget helping someone you love, a family member, exit the LC if this person is a full time meeting attender & conference attender and whose greatest desire is to attending full time training in Anaheim? I believe that the LC will be destructive in the long run and after 2 years of full time training it may be exceedingly difficult to UNdo such a worldview and practice of religion.

Dear friend,

I would say two words: Pray and model. Pray for your family member and model genuine Christ-like care. Rest in the Lord and trust him.

This board is proof that debating with people whose minds are made up is futile. Even reasonably open-minded people have a hard time admitting "Hey, you were right and I was wrong!" Direct confrontation alone just doesn't get it done.

People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And even then, without some personal crisis to push them to seek answers, most people are not going to change. We need prayer and care. Visible care.

[TJRiver]

Thanks both to you 67 & 68. Its painful to see distance between those you love, almost like they are on a boat sailing away from the dock and you aren't quite certain that their voyage will be uneventful and that there's no guarantee they'll dock there again.

[aron]

Originally Posted by TJRiver

Its painful to see distance between those you love, almost like they are on a boat sailing away from the dock and you aren't quite certain that their voyage will be uneventful and that there's no guarantee they'll dock there again.

TJ,

I would like to give you a couple of verses for encouragement. First, "Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus." Nothing. No group, no teaching, no practice. Eventually God wins. Never give up, never get discouraged, never doubt. God will win. Just be patient, and hold fast to your faith until the end. God will win. Through your faith, your family member remains "safe in the arms of Jesus."

Second, is the verse "Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." I consider the whole schema of the Nee/Lee/Local Church system to be of the world, and in the world. Their incessant merchandising, and their total disregard for the poor, among other practices, made this clear to me. Eventually the One who is greater, the One whose Spirit abides in your family member's human heart, will win. So your guarantee is in the Word of God, and your stubborn faith which holds to and declares to this word firmly until the end.

Regarding strategy, there is a great quote from Igzy on another thread. You may have read it already but it bears repeating. It has been my experience, also.

QUOTE: "This is where LCers fall flat on their faces. And I mean flat. Has there ever been a Christian group worse at defending their beliefs than them? This is why their numbers are small, but devoted--precisely because their positions are not well thought-out, but rather are visceral and emotional. They are the product of being hammered with teachings week-in and week-out while being threatened with a dire fate not only for disbelieving them, but even simply for holding them up to the light of intelligent questioning. The result is people who will defend their beliefs to the end with everything they have...except a good argument.

To me, anything worth believing can be explained intelligently. You don't need threatening and you don't need to run away when someone asks a question you can't answer. You should consider such questions as gifts, because they point out the weakness in your beliefs, at least so far as you hold them at that moment.

LCers don't do that. They make declarations. If you question them, they make them again, perhaps slightly reworded, but essentially the same. If your questions make them uncomfortable, they will disappear, considering you "bad material." They never stop to think that perhaps their material is bad. They can't, because to them questioning is the beginning of the fall."

I tried debating with some Local Churchers, once. There were several of them, and one of me. They presented me with huge extracts of quotes from Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Paragraph after paragraph of writings were quoted verbatim. I said, "Well, what do you think? Can you explain this to me in your own words?" No; they just wanted to quote Nee and Lee. They didn't want to think, to question, to examine.

When I persisted in my probing of the Nee/Lee analysis, trying to show there were other ways to approach the Word of God than the logic of these 2 men, one of the Local Churchers began to say that my heart was "dark" and I was "rebellious" because I had "ambition" which had been thwarted (I am a former member of the group).

So reasoning is usually a dead end. Have you ever tried to reason with a Mormon? They just keep repeating the mantras they've been handed. Any deviation from their 'group norm' makes them uncomfortable, and they avoid it at all costs. An integral part of their teaching is 'don't question the teaching.'

So it is a stubborn virus that you are dealing with here. It is resistant to many of the basic cures. But, greater is God than any worldly virus. God can raise the dead, and He can surely turn within the human heart. Just hold fast to the Word of truth, and God will have His way. "Thy will be done, Father God." Tell yourself that you will never let go, not of God nor your family member, and God will have a way.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

TJ,
"Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus." Nothing. No group, no teaching, no practice. Eventually God wins. Never give up, never get discouraged, never doubt. God will win. Just be patient, and hold fast to your faith until the end. God will win. Through your faith, your family member remains "safe in the
Arms of Jesus."

Hey Aron,
A few years ago, a friend of mine sadly took his own life after feeling there was no way out of the pit he dug for himself. It was devasting of course. But you know what the Holy Spirit told his sister and what she & the family put as an epitah on his tombstone? "Safe in the Arms of the Lord".

Second, is the verse "Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world." I consider the whole schema of the Nee/Lee/Local Church system to be of the world, and in the world. Their incessant merchandising, and their total disregard for the poor, among other practices, made this clear to me. Eventually the One who is greater, the One whose Spirit abides in your family member's human heart, will win. So your guarantee is in the Word of God, and your stubborn faith which holds to and declares to this Word firmly until the end.

I tried debating with some Local Churchers, once. There were several of them, and one of me. They presented me with huge extracts of quotes from Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Paragraph after paragraph of writings were quoted verbatim. I said, "Well, what do you think? Can you explain this to me in your own words?" No; they just wanted to quote Nee and Lee. They didn't want to think, to question, to examine.

When I persisted in my probing of the Nee/Lee analysis, trying to show there were other ways to approach the Word of God than the logic of these 2 men, one of the Local Churchers began to say that my heart was "dark" and I was "rebellious" because I had "ambition" which had been thwarted (I am a former member of the group).

So reasoning is usually a dead end. Have you ever tried to reason with a Mormon? They just keep repeating the mantras they've been handed. Any deviation from their 'group norm' makes them uncomfortable, and they avoid it at all costs. An integral part of their teaching is 'don't question the teaching.'

I began to chuckle as I read your debate w/the LCrs as I thought of my encounter with the Mormons!!! Then you compared their repeating mantras to the LCrs mantras and defense of Lee/Nee!! That is exactly how it is!!!! Last summer as I listened to the Mormons give me their schpeel, they kept telling me over and over how God, I mean god spoke to Joseph Smith. From that point on, it was all about Joseph Smith being "the prophet". As they went on and on about Joseph Smith, I was sooo reminded of the LCrs adulation of Brother Lee.
They did not rattle me in the least. They saw how much I truly loved the Word. I did not merely quote scriptures to them. But I did politely and lovingly kept reminding them JESUS IS GOD by pointing them to the scriptures. They do not believe Jesus IS God. They only believe He is the Son of God and Lucifer's brother. How SAD!!!! When we were done, we prayed together and I asked the Lord to bless them. I gave them some bottled water to take with them on their way.

Several years ago, I never would have sat down with them!

So it is a stubborn virus that you are dealing with here. It is resistant to many of the basic cures. But, greater is God than any worldly virus. God can raise the dead, and He can surely turn within the human heart. Just hold fast to the Word of Truth, and God will have His way. "Thy will be done, Father God." Tell yourself that you will never let go, not of God nor your family member, and God will have a way.

I loved this post of yours Aron !!!!

May I add yet another scripture? Psalm 144:15 "Happy is that people whose GOD is the Lord".

People need to see the Joy and the Peace of the Lord in us. Don't misunderstand. I know all too well, there are times we are not so 'happy'. But I think everyone of us former LCr here know that as long as we stay connected to our God, He is not going to leave us 'unhappy'. He truly does turn our mourning into dancing.

Blessings!

Carol Garza

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by TJRiver

Thanks both to you 67 & 68. Its painful to see distance between those you love, almost like they are on a boat sailing away from the dock and you aren't quite certain that their voyage will be uneventful and that there's no guarantee they'll dock there again.

I would encourage you to look at this differently. If this person is truly going to be a committed member of the LRC they will soon no longer be able to fellowship with any other Christians. If you keep the door open for fellowship you will soon be the only person they can fellowship with outside of the LRC. To do that you will have to put up with a lot of arrogant self righteous judgments. Don't get offended. Don't respond "tit for tat". If a communication comes across as outrageously arrogant and offensive, just ignore it. Remember Abigail, she didn't try to reason with Nabal when he was drunk, she waited till the next morning when he had a hangover.

Doesn't the Bible say "a brother is born for adversity"?

[UntoHim]

I'm quite sure that none of the past few posts are going to "make leaving the Local Church easier". Opening post is another dandy penned by Igzy.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Igzy

My desire for posting on this forum has always been simply to help people over the hump of being able to deal psychologically with leaving the LC. Mostly I have done this by arguing that many LC teachings and beliefs are unbiblical, illogical and untenable.

I hope that has been helpful, but I’d like to start a thread to provide some advice for people who are considering leaving or have left and are still having trouble moving on.

Here are some things which I had to learn the hard way. I think they will help you make the transition more easily:

1. Pray. Pray a lot. The fact is most LCers don’t know how to pray for themselves or their family in a detailed and focused way. This has to be learned if you are going to move on. Get practical and specific with your prayers. Ask God to show you what is real and what is false. Ask him to protect you from spiritual attack. Ask him to fill you with peace and joy. Ask him about specific LC teachings which are holding you back. Ask him about the local ground, spiritual authority and any other teachings you have taken for granted. You’ll be amazed how he opens your eyes.
   
   There is one mediator between man and God--and it is not Witness Lee, the BBs, Titus Chu, or your former elders or small group leader. It’s Jesus. We have direct access to God. 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us. That means God himself will lead us. Call in this promise on your life. Pray about everything. God will answer.
   
   
2. Get to know God. The LC mindset is not truly conducive to getting to know God. God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being. Throw that teaching in the trash. It’s keeping you from knowing God personally. God is a person we can get to know. Eternal life is knowing God. That means getting to know his thoughts, feelings and tendencies. He will communicate these to you if you stop thinking about him all the time as water, bread or a “dose.” Sure in a sense he is all these things. But they are all metaphors for what he is to us personally. First and foremost he is a person. Talk to him and think of him as a person as real and approachable as your wife or best friend. Because he is actually more so that than anyone.
   
   
3. Read the Bible and throw away the footnotes. Read a lot of different Christian authors. Read carefully, but with an open, uncritical mind. Give God a chance to say something to you that you don't expect. Notice how all writers and teachers are a little different and are just expressing their points of view. Then realize that's all Witness Lee was doing, whether or not he thought so himself.
   
   
4. Focus on the first and second commandments. Love God and love people. We all know we are supposed to love God. But LCers have a strange way of loving people. You can’t love people if you treat and think of them as aliens from another planet. I think the best thing for any LCer would be to have a gay couple move in next door and to hear God telling them to love and be good neighbors to that couple (this actually happened to me), to learn to see them as people just like you, because the fact is that’s how God sees them. God loves everyone. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Learn to look at everyone the way God sees them. Love the bum on the street. Love the guy with the bandana, tattoos and piercings. Stop calling them “the unbelievers.” Love Christians of all stripes. Stop calling them "those in Christianity." That’s just elitism and snobbery, and it is not Jesus.
   
   
5. Banish fear and stay positive. Faith and fear have something in common. They both ask us to believe something in the future that we cannot see. Fear is the enemy's tactic. Faith is God's way. When you begin to notice fear creeping around, banish it, and stand in faith that God wants to set you free.
   
   Tell yourself that you are God’s child and he loves you and has a purpose for you. Don’t give in to negative self-talk or condemnation. Read positive Christian writers like Norman Vincent Peale, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen (yes, Joel Osteen!).
   
   
6. Start at home. If you don’t love your spouse, your kids, your family, friends and neighbors, and serve them like Christ would, then forget about the church. God is practical. Our mission field starts with the person who sleeps with us, then moves to our kids, and so forth. Start there. Be a good spouse and parent. If you can’t do that the rest is just an act anyway. The good news is starting at home is life-sized. Anyone can do it.
   
   
7. Find some new Christian friends and just love them in a simple way. You probably think you are a superior class of Christian and more transformed and so much clearer than all those poor, clueless non-LC Christians, don’t you? Boy, are you in for a shock. You are not near as transformed as you think. In fact, you probably aren’t much transformed at all. I don’t think I experienced any real transformation until recently in my life. Get humble and get some new friends and companions. Let God teach you through them. You might be surprised and probably will be.
   
   
8. Forget about spirituality and high-sounding doctrines, and just live a life of love and service. The fact is the LC is all about being spiritual, and I don’t mean that as a compliment. For example, when the LC thinks of sacrifice they talk about “taking the cross” and the emphasis is all about crushing the self so you can even be more of a spiritual giant than you already think you are. But sacrifice is actually all about doing something for someone else’s sake, for their benefit. In other words, it’s about love. That’s what you should focus on.
   
   High-sounding doctrines can also make you think you are very spiritual, because you can see… The Vision. Don’t kid yourself. The general parameters of the LC vision are more or less correct. Yes, God is perfecting a people for his glory. But all the hoo-hah about The New Jerusalem is mostly just overkill and bling. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. And when you really start caring about people you begin to lose interest in detailed studies of The New Jerusalem and that kind of thing because they are often a kind of spiritual masturbation. (Did he really say that?! Yes, I did.)
   
   
9. Forgive and move on. Don’t hold grudges and don’t let past LC offenses steal your joy. Shake the dust off your feet. There is too much to live for to be bound to the past. Pray for your old friends in the LC.
   
   
10. Pray. See step one. Keeping praying. Pray all the time. Pray about everything. You will be amazed to find out how much God truly cares about you and is on your side.

Stay positive and full of faith. I hope and pray you will find peace, joy and purpose in your post-LC life like you never dreamed of. With God's help I know you will.

"I prayed to the Lord, and he answered me. He freed me from all my fears." Psalm 34:4

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Igzy

My desire for posting on this forum has always been simply to help people over the hump of being able to deal psychologically with leaving the LC. Mostly I have done this by arguing that many LC teachings and beliefs are unbiblical, illogical and untenable.

I hope that has been helpful, but I’d like to start a thread to provide some advice for people who are considering leaving or have left and are still having trouble moving on.

Here are some things which I had to learn the hard way. I think they will help you make the transition more easily:

1. Pray. Pray a lot. The fact is most LCers don’t know how to pray for themselves or their family in a detailed and focused way. This has to be learned if you are going to move on. Get practical and specific with your prayers. Ask God to show you what is real and what is false. Ask him to protect you from spiritual attack. Ask him to fill you with peace and joy. Ask him about specific LC teachings which are holding you back. Ask him about the local ground, spiritual authority and any other teachings you have taken for granted. You’ll be amazed how he opens your eyes.
   
   There is one mediator between man and God--and it is not Witness Lee, the BBs, Titus Chu, or your former elders or small group leader. It’s Jesus. We have direct access to God. 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us. That means God himself will lead us. Call in this promise on your life. Pray about everything. God will answer.
   
   
2. Get to know God. The LC mindset is not truly conducive to getting to know God. God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being. Throw that teaching in the trash. It’s keeping you from knowing God personally. God is a person we can get to know. Eternal life is knowing God. That means getting to know his thoughts, feelings and tendencies. He will communicate these to you if you stop thinking about him all the time as water, bread or a “dose.” Sure in a sense he is all these things. But they are all metaphors for what he is to us personally. First and foremost he is a person. Talk to him and think of him as a person as real and approachable as your wife or best friend. Because he is actually more so that than anyone.
   
   
3. Read the Bible and throw away the footnotes. Read a lot of different Christian authors. Read carefully, but with an open, uncritical mind. Give God a chance to say something to you that you don't expect. Notice how all writers and teachers are a little different and are just expressing their points of view. Then realize that's all Witness Lee was doing, whether or not he thought so himself.
   
   
4. Focus on the first and second commandments. Love God and love people. We all know we are supposed to love God. But LCers have a strange way of loving people. You can’t love people if you treat and think of them as aliens from another planet. I think the best thing for any LCer would be to have a gay couple move in next door and to hear God telling them to love and be good neighbors to that couple (this actually happened to me), to learn to see them as people just like you, because the fact is that’s how God sees them. God loves everyone. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Learn to look at everyone the way God sees them. Love the bum on the street. Love the guy with the bandana, tattoos and piercings. Stop calling them “the unbelievers.” Love Christians of all stripes. Stop calling them "those in Christianity." That’s just elitism and snobbery, and it is not Jesus.
   
   
5. Banish fear and stay positive. Faith and fear have something in common. They both ask us to believe something in the future that we cannot see. Fear is the enemy's tactic. Faith is God's way. When you begin to notice fear creeping around, banish it, and stand in faith that God wants to set you free.
   
   Tell yourself that you are God’s child and he loves you and has a purpose for you. Don’t give in to negative self-talk or condemnation. Read positive Christian writers like Norman Vincent Peale, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen (yes, Joel Osteen!).
   
   
6. Start at home. If you don’t love your spouse, your kids, your family, friends and neighbors, and serve them like Christ would, then forget about the church. God is practical. Our mission field starts with the person who sleeps with us, then moves to our kids, and so forth. Start there. Be a good spouse and parent. If you can’t do that the rest is just an act anyway. The good news is starting at home is life-sized. Anyone can do it.
   
   
7. Find some new Christian friends and just love them in a simple way. You probably think you are a superior class of Christian and more transformed and so much clearer than all those poor, clueless non-LC Christians, don’t you? Boy, are you in for a shock. You are not near as transformed as you think. In fact, you probably aren’t much transformed at all. I don’t think I experienced any real transformation until recently in my life. Get humble and get some new friends and companions. Let God teach you through them. You might be surprised and probably will be.
   
   
8. Forget about spirituality and high-sounding doctrines, and just live a life of love and service. The fact is the LC is all about being spiritual, and I don’t mean that as a compliment. For example, when the LC thinks of sacrifice they talk about “taking the cross” and the emphasis is all about crushing the self so you can even be more of a spiritual giant than you already think you are. But sacrifice is actually all about doing something for someone else’s sake, for their benefit. In other words, it’s about love. That’s what you should focus on.
   
   High-sounding doctrines can also make you think you are very spiritual, because you can see… The Vision. Don’t kid yourself. The general parameters of the LC vision are more or less correct. Yes, God is perfecting a people for his glory. But all the hoo-hah about The New Jerusalem is mostly just overkill and bling. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. And when you really start caring about people you begin to lose interest in detailed studies of The New Jerusalem and that kind of thing because they are often a kind of spiritual masturbation. (Did he really say that?! Yes, I did.)
   
   
9. Forgive and move on. Don’t hold grudges and don’t let past LC offenses steal your joy. Shake the dust off your feet. There is too much to live for to be bound to the past. Pray for your old friends in the LC.
   
   
10. Pray. See step one. Keeping praying. Pray all the time. Pray about everything. You will be amazed to find out how much God truly cares about you and is on your side.

Stay positive and full of faith. I hope and pray you will find peace, joy and purpose in your post-LC life like you never dreamed of. With God's help I know you will.

"I prayed to the Lord, and he answered me. He freed me from all my fears." Psalm 34:4

Thank you for posting this. I've realized some of these things but have a ways to go. Specifically, with praying. Sometimes I don't know where to start. I feel like I'm on ground zero now with God. I appreciate you saying, "God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being." This is something I've heard my whole life- I want to go back and read every verse the LC uses to justify this and see what the verses REALLY say.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you for posting this. I've realized some of these things but have a ways to go. Specifically, with praying. Sometimes I don't know where to start. I feel like I'm on ground zero now with God. I appreciate you saying, "God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being." This is something I've heard my whole life- I want to go back and read every verse the LC uses to justify this and see what the verses REALLY say.

Good for you!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you for posting this. I've realized some of these things but have a ways to go. Specifically, with praying. Sometimes I don't know where to start. I feel like I'm on ground zero now with God. I appreciate you saying, "God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being." This is something I've heard my whole life- I want to go back and read every verse the LC uses to justify this and see what the verses REALLY say.

God’s substance is Spirit (John 4:24).

God wants us to receive and be filled with the Spirit (John 7:39,Ephesians 5:18)

Therefore God is a substance (Spirit) to be dispensed into our being.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

God’s substance is Spirit (John 4:24).
God wants us to receive and be filled with the Spirit (John 7:39,Ephesians 5:18)
Therefore God is a substance (Spirit) to be dispensed into our being.

Thanks for providing scripture, Evangelical.

Here are the verses
John 4:24 http://biblehub.com/blb/john/4.htm
John 7:39 http://biblehub.com/blb/john/7.htm
John 5:18 http://biblehub.com/blb/ephesians/5.htm

I don’t see the word “substance”, nor “dispense”.

[Cal]

Wow. Pretty humbling that this thread I started six years ago still has some legs.

The question of Spirit as substance is one we probably cannot come to a conclusion about. In one sense it seems the Spirit is "stuff." But the problem sets in when we limit him to only that.

My belief is that spirit is the reality of what a person is. It is the essence of what matters. This is why the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of reality." The Holy Spirit is always about the essence of God, both in himself and in our experience. So though it is not wrong to think of the Spirit in terms of a "substance," we need to realize the potential problems of equating him to a physical, non-personal substance.

The Spirit is the reality of God; and God is, first and foremost, a personal Being. Because of this, personality and personal relationship are most important aspects of the Spirit. Everything we experience about the Spirit is an aspect of a relational Personality, not of an unconscious substance.

This why emphasizing substance over personality, which Lee did, is questionable. It moves the experience of God from the experience of a Person to the experience of a Thing. We must always remember that all our experiences of God are experiences of a conscious Being. We must not reduce them to unconscious things which exist for our benefit.

Hope this helps.

[Drake]

-1

Igzy,

We disagree about many things, perhaps most.. but just wanted to say glad to see you make an appearance. Hope this finds you well.

Now, where were we....

Drake

[Steel]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you for posting this. I've realized some of these things but have a ways to go. Specifically, with praying. Sometimes I don't know where to start. I feel like I'm on ground zero now with God.

And yet... Scripture tells us that our Lord said...

Matthew 13:11... "And He answered and said to them, Because to you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been given."

And Paul, who is thought to be the author of most of the new testament scripture, scripture tells us, says this...

Galatians 1:12... "For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation by Jesus Christ."

So why do you think you would be at "...on ground zero now with God..." given the realities revealed in the above (and many other) scripture verses being true?

Do you not think that God wants you to know what to pray for?

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I appreciate you saying, "God is not a substance to be dispensed into your being." This is something I've heard my whole life- I want to go back and read every verse the LC uses to justify this and see what the verses REALLY say.

And yet...

Scripture tells us right at the very beginning of scripture...

Genesis 2:7... "Jehovah God formed man with the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

How can that which "...is not a substance to be dispensed into your being...", breath Himself into that which He created, causing this creature to become "..a living soul...".

And more...

Scripture tells us...

Ecclesiastes 12:7... "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it."

And if for some reason you don't think what the old testament scripture tells us is relevant to us... Let's look at what new testament scripture says on the matter...

2 Corinthians 13:5... "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?"

From Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible...

"...prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you; by which he means, that if they took a survey of things in their own souls, it would appear that Christ was in them; not as he is in all the world, filling heaven and earth with his presence; or as he is in every rational creature, as the Creator and author of the light of nature; but in a special and spiritual manner, by his Spirit and grace; the Father reveals him in his people, as the foundation of their hope of glory; he himself enters and takes possession of their hearts in conversion, communicates his grace, and manifests himself, and is formed there by his Spirit; his graces are implanted, his image is stamped, his Spirit is put within them, and he himself dwells by faith: and this upon inquiry would be found to be the case of the Corinthians,..."

This in particular...

"...he himself enters and takes possession of their hearts in conversion, communicates his grace, and manifests himself, and is formed there by his Spirit; his graces are implanted, his image is stamped, his Spirit is put within them, and he himself dwells by faith: and this upon inquiry would be found to be the case of the Corinthians,..."

And Matthew Henry Commentary...

"...They ought to know if Christ Jesus was in them, by the influences, graces, and indwelling of his Spirit, by his kingdom set up in their hearts. Let us question our own souls; either we are true Christians, or we are deceivers. Unless Christ be in us by his Spirit, and power of his love, our faith is dead, and we are yet disapproved by our Judge."

And Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers...

"..."Christ is in you" (the central thought of the Apostle's teaching; Galatians 1:16; Ephesians 2:22; Ephesians 3:17; Colossians 1:27),..."

Galatians 1:16... "But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,... To reveal His Son in me that I might announce Him as the gospel among the Gentiles, immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood,..."

Ephesians 2:22... "In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit."

Ephesians 3:19... "And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God."

And if the above scripture verses are not enough, how about...

Colossians 1:27... "To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory,..."

And there are many more.

Perhaps your problem regarding not knowing what to pray... Is a direct result of not believing that God... Is... As substance that is dispensed into your being.

Not a "...substance..." that has been created... But an uncreated, mysterious "...substance...".

As scripture tells us our Lord said...

John 4:24... "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness."

Amen.