Contact with Fuller Seminary

[Indiana]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:55 PM, steve isitt wrote:

Dear Dr. Mouw,

I have been in Pasadena to hopefully discuss the topic of the Local Churches together with you before I leave.

Tuesday night I was in attendance with the Los Angeles rabbis in their discussion of the need for fact-finding and negotiation for bringing about a peaceful resolution to the problems in Israel, Palestine, and Middle East nations.

Concerning the Local Churches, many of us associated with them felt that Fuller's 2006 statement was an important step toward understanding and appreciating positive aspects about this group of churches. On the other hand, many realize there were deficiencies in Fuller's fact-finding endeavor. In a somewhat similar way, on Tuesday night the rabbis spoke of the deficiencies in the movie on Israel that greatly disturbed them. To begin with, the Christian producers did not even involve a Jewish person's input in the creation of the film. The rabbis felt the movie, With God on Our Side, was according to a political agenda the Christian producers had for the movie. As a result, the movie's specious content misled people. In Fuller's review, not one former member or leader was interviewed for their input.

Dr. Mouw, I have been writing transparently on Local Church history for ten years on both the positive and negative aspects. I had been a member for 30 years. There are also three prominent former Local Church leaders nearby in Anaheim available for invaluable writings and fellowship. Moreover, another former member wrote a book of her experience in the Local Church; I have five websites full of documentation that tell the unfiltered story of Local Church history, teachings, and practices not freely given to you or discovered by you in a limited exercise in fact-finding.

We observed, Dr. Mouw, the disgust Mark Diamond and Jonathan Freund had for the makers of the movie, With God on Our Side. They were visibly bothered by the lack of truth conveyed in the film and its detrimental effect to their cause of bringing forth facts, understanding, and reconciliation regarding Middle Eastern countries and concerns. At least the director of the movie did "issue a "correction" on the film's website and in a press release" acknowledging the erroneous Ben Gurion quote given in the movie, and it was said in response, "we sincerely appreciate Mr. Speakman's willingness to respond to criticism and to publicly issue this correction."

Not so in the Local Churches, who sadly believe that even when they are wrong they are right.

Regarding the Local Churches, there is a need for third party help and mediation with current and former leaders, toward reconciliation among many members in the Body of Christ. www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRecovery.us The most prominent former leader is now failing in health at 81 years old and told me at lunch two months ago that he would like to see again two brothers, Benson Phillips and Ron Kangas, and spoke of the closeness he especially had with Benson.

I wonder, Dr. Mouw, if you could assist me with that need. You are in a unique position to influence the Local Church leaders, more than I am or the former leaders are. We have no influence on them.

Something I read once about debate or argument is that once facts begin to emerge and take their place, the problems that were thought to be there dissipate in a process of eliminating faulty concepts one by one. However, any attempt by me or others to obtain fellowship "characterized by sincere, open, transparent, unrestricted dialog", as Fuller experienced, has been ignored, to put it mildly. It is not the practice of Local Church leadership to meet with concerned church members in such a way for challenging dialog and fellowship that might warrant a "correction" notice and public acknowledgment of being wrong.

my initial letter of appeal to Dan Towle in 2001
www.twoturmoils.com/danintro.doc

2004 appeal to Dan Towle for fellowship
www.twoturmoils.com/DanTowleDefamationLetter.pdf

But I still hope for their attention to facts, which are "stubborn things", and for their capitulation to the truth, which should prevail, not men, not agendas. May the Lord's will be done in our brothers, in me, and in you.

I hope to hear from you, Dr. Mouw, and would look forward to meeting you or meeting with you. I missed you on Tuesday night.

Respectfully yours
in Christ,
Steve Isitt

[TLFisher]

In reading this letter two key points I see are:
1."Tuesday night I was in attendance with the Los Angeles rabbis in their discussion of the need for fact-finding and negotiation for bringing about a peaceful resolution to the problems in Israel, Palestine, and Middle East nations.
Concerning the Local Churches, many of us associated with them felt that Fuller's 2006 statement was an important step toward understanding and appreciating positive aspects about this group of churches. On the other hand, many realize there were deficiencies in Fuller's fact-finding endeavor. In a somewhat similar way, on Tuesday night the rabbis spoke of the deficiencies in the movie on Israel that greatly disturbed them. To begin with, the Christian producers did not even involve a Jewish person's input in the creation of the film. The rabbis felt the movie, With God on Our Side, was according to a political agenda the Christian producers had for the movie. As a result, the movie's specious content misled people. In Fuller's review, not one former member or leader was interviewed for their input.

Dr. Mouw, I have been writing transparently on Local Church history for ten years on both the positive and negative aspects. I had been a member for 30 years. There are also three prominent former Local Church leaders nearby in Anaheim available for invaluable writings and fellowship. Moreover, another former member wrote a book of her experience in the Local Church; I have five websites full of documentation that tell the unfiltered story of Local Church history, teachings, and practices not freely given to you or discovered by you in a limited exercise in fact-finding.

We observed, Dr. Mouw, the disgust Mark Diamond and Jonathan Freund had for the makers of the movie, With God on Our Side. They were visibly bothered by the lack of truth conveyed in the film and its detrimental effect to their cause of bringing forth facts, understanding, and reconciliation regarding Middle Eastern countries and concerns. At least the director of the movie did "issue a "correction" on the film's website and in a press release" acknowledging the erroneous Ben Gurion quote given in the movie, and it was said in response, "we sincerely appreciate Mr. Speakman's willingness to respond to criticism and to publicly issue this correction."

Not so in the Local Churches, who sadly believe that even when they are wrong they are right."

2. "Regarding the Local Churches, there is a need for third party help and mediation with current and former leaders, toward reconciliation among many members in the Body of Christ. www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRecovery.us The most prominent former leader is now failing in health at 81 years old and told me at lunch two months ago that he would like to see again two brothers, Benson Phillips and Ron Kangas, and spoke of the closeness he especially had with Benson."

I have italicized and underlined the point why Fuller ought to get involved to mediate. If not, it's an omission on their part. Come on brothers! Being significantly younger than many of the principles involved, they're not getting any younger. Stop playing games. Stop being political and cease being respectors of persons through the observance of some decades old edict.

"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering."
Matthew 5:23-24

[Indiana]

Dear brother Dick,

I was with John Ingalls two months ago at lunch when he offered to shake hands with a brother who refused. Both this brother and his wife "remembered what he did in their locality" ....

John would just like to be able to have at least friendly relationships before he passes, and told me specifically that he would like to see Benson and Ron. "These two brothers", he said, "especially Benson", having indicated that they were close for many years...and had stayed in each others homes....

Brother, can't there be some form of reconciliation among current and former leaders, as it is their deep desire to do? And, preferably to the degree that would please the Lord, from both sides.
Steve I.

2 Corinthians 5
16 So then we, from now on, know no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him so no longer. 17 So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new. 18 But all things are out from God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 Namely, that God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and has put in us the word of reconciliation. 20 On behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God. 21 Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Recovery Version

-----------------------------------------------
Hello Dr. Mouw, (sent to Dr. Moux first, then included to 160 leaders.)

I am following up my email request to substantiate my reason(s) for seeking mediation help from you, rather briefly presented in the attachment, Hear the Cases.

Thank you for any attention you can give on behalf of Christ in a ministry of reconciliation among brothers who have been "called into the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord" who is both their portion and ours in the same one Body.

Steve Isitt
--------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:55 PM, steve isitt wrote:

Dear Dr. Mouw,

I have been in Pasadena to hopefully discuss the topic of the Local Churches together with you before I leave.

Tuesday night I was in attendance with the Los Angeles rabbis in their discussion of the need for fact-finding and negotiation for bringing about a peaceful resolution to the problems in Israel, Palestine, and Middle East nations.

Concerning the Local Churches, many of us associated with them felt that Fuller's 2006 statement was an important step toward understanding and appreciating positive aspects about this group of churches. On the other hand, many realize there were deficiencies in Fuller's fact-finding endeavor. In a somewhat similar way, on Tuesday night the rabbis spoke of the deficiencies in the movie on Israel that greatly disturbed them. To begin with, the Christian producers did not even involve a Jewish person's input in the creation of the film. The rabbis felt the movie, With God on Our Side, was according to a political agenda the Christian producers had for the movie. As a result, the movie's specious content misled people. In Fuller's review, not one former member or leader was interviewed for their input.

Dr. Mouw, I have been writing transparently on Local Church history for ten years on both the positive and negative aspects. I had been a member for 30 years. There are also three prominent former Local Church leaders nearby in Anaheim available for invaluable writings and fellowship. Moreover, another former member wrote a book of her experience in the Local Church; I have five websites full of documentation that tell the unfiltered story of Local Church history, teachings, and practices not freely given to you or discovered by you in a limited exercise in fact-finding.

We observed, Dr. Mouw, the disgust Mark Diamond and Jonathan Freund had for the makers of the movie, With God on Our Side. They were visibly bothered by the lack of truth conveyed in the film and its detrimental effect to their cause of bringing forth facts, understanding, and reconciliation regarding Middle Eastern countries and concerns. At least the director of the movie did "issue a "correction" on the film's website and in a press release" acknowledging the erroneous Ben Gurion quote given in the movie, and it was said in response, "we sincerely appreciate Mr. Speakman's willingness to respond to criticism and to publicly issue this correction."

Not so in the Local Churches, who sadly believe that even when they are wrong they are right.

Regarding the Local Churches, there is a need for third party help and mediation with current and former leaders, toward reconciliation among many members in the Body of Christ. www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRecovery.us The most prominent former leader is now failing in health at 81 years old and told me at lunch two months ago that he would like to see again two brothers, Benson Phillips and Ron Kangas, and spoke of the closeness he especially had with Benson.

I wonder, Dr. Mouw, if you could assist me with that need. You are in a unique position to influence the Local Church leaders, more than I am or the former leaders are. We have no influence on them.

Something I read once about debate or argument is that once facts begin to emerge and take their place, the problems that were thought to be there dissipate in a process of eliminating faulty concepts one by one. However, any attempt by me or others to obtain fellowship "characterized by sincere, open, transparent, unrestricted dialog", as Fuller experienced, has been ignored, to put it mildly. It is not the practice of Local Church leadership to meet with concerned church members in such a way for challenging dialog and fellowship that might warrant a "correction" notice and public acknowledgment of being wrong.

my initial letter of appeal to Dan Towle in 2001
www.twoturmoils.com/danintro.doc

2004 appeal to Dan Towle for fellowship
www.twoturmoils.com/DanTowleDefamationLetter.pdf

But I still hope for their attention to facts, which are "stubborn things", and for their capitulation to the truth, which should prevail, not men, not agendas. May the Lord's will be done in our brothers, in me, and in you.

I hope to hear from you, Dr. Mouw, and would look forward to meeting you or meeting with you. I missed you on Tuesday night.

Respectfully yours
in Christ,

Steve Isitt
Bellevue, WA

[UntoHim]

Steve I think you may be barking up the wrong tree with Dr. Mouw. He is Christian philosopher and not a Christian mediator. And from my observation he's not much of a theologian, which makes him a rather curious choice for president of a Christian theological seminary (which may say something about the state of affairs over there at Fuller) In any event, I fear he is one of these "everybody is a cult, so nobody is a cult" guys, a la our old friend J. Gordon Melton. I would imagine there were a number of ex Mormons who protested Mouw's cozying up to the Mormons just a few years ago. I bet some of them may have written a letter similar to yours....with a very similar cold, ignoring shoulder.

But, if you are nothing else my dear brother, you are very persistent and relentless in your pursuit of reconciliation among current and former members. I just wish you would just as persistent and just as relentless to bring them all here to LocalChurchDiscussion.Com - what would be a better neutral ground?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Steve I think you may be barking up the wrong tree with Dr. Mouw...

Well, I did the next best thing and called DCP last week to sit down with them and have a talk. The receptionist asked who I was and I told her my name and that I was active on the forum and wanted to talk to someome from DCP. She went to tell Bill Buntain that Steve Isitt was on the phone wanting to talk to him. After a rather long wait, the receptionist came back, apologized for the wait, and said that Billl wanted me to leave a message for him. I told her to tell him that I wanted to help DCP end the internet problem with us by coming together with me to discuss what can be done...and to fellowship with us as we have been asking of LC leaders for a long time.

I said that I was nearby and could meet with Bill that afternoon or the next day. It has been one week and no word from the brother who helps head up the Defense team against those who challenge them. Indeed, their acceptance of an invitation to come onto the forum would be a catastrophe for them. They could not defend themselves and have not done so in 17 links to their writings http://www.twoturmoils.com/SteveLinks.pdf

[ZNPaaneah]

Indiana, can you reread 1Cor 5?

5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This chapter which goes into detail about the excommunication of a brother that was a fornicator makes it clear that extortioners are included. DCP is merely the means by which LSM extorts others. Now Paul wrote that we were not to keep company with or even eat with extortioners.

If you agree that DCP assists LSM in extortion then why would you try and fellowship with them contrary to Paul's instructions? If you don't agree that they are involved in extortion then how do you explain this and other forums that you participate in?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Well, I did the next best thing and called DCP last week to sit down with them and have a talk. The receptionist asked who I was and I told her my name and that I was active on the forum and wanted to talk to someome from DCP. She went to tell Bill Buntain that Steve Isitt was on the phone wanting to talk to him. After a rather long wait, the receptionist came back, apologized for the wait, and said that Billl wanted me to leave a message for him. I told her to tell him that I wanted to help DCP end the internet problem with us by coming together with me to discuss what can be done...and to fellowship with us as we have been asking of LC leaders for a long time.

I said that I was nearby and could meet with Bill that afternoon or the next day. It has been one week and no word from the brother who helps head up the Defense team against those who challenge them.

Bill Buntain was probably afraid that you might "poison" him.

I doubt if he has been "authorized" to speak with you.