Evaluation of Elders

[TLFisher]

Thanks to PriestlyScribe bringing it to my attention:

"Concerning the appointment and qualification of co-workers and elders, we can view this from two angles. On the one hand, we should follow the Scriptures. On the other hand, based on our long-term history, we know that some of our co-workers have been harmed because there has been no evaluation of their service. Today in various big companies and government organizations there are examinations with grades. Even diplomatic officials must take examinations... I absolutely believe that if we had systematically evaluated the co-workers in Taiwan over the past thirty years, the co-workers would have been more fruitful than they are today. The same applies to the elders... In the Bible we cannot find any length of time for the service of an elder. According to our understanding, it seems as if an elder should serve his whole life, like a justice on the Supreme Court. If an elder is constantly learning and making progress and is truly an elder among the saints, this is all right. But if one has been an elder for twenty or thirty years, and the church under his management is only mediocre, this proves that the time has come for him to voluntarily yield his position to someone who is younger but more qualified and experienced... In this way the churches can have a new beginning and a new hope." Witness Lee

Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way

[TLFisher]

Many of us have been indoctrinated with the concept elders/co-workers were representatives of God's government thus considered having "Spiritual Diplomatic Immunity".

leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Matthew 5:24

Here's a situation; you're an elder in a locality and there's a brother in your locality you refuse to speak to. This goes on for well over a year. The elder can go on taking the Lord's Table week after week, month after month, and year after year without needing to be reconciled to his brother.

What do you, as an attendee of the Church in _______ do when there's nothing in place to evaluate an elder or a co-worker?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Terry

Many of us have been indoctrinated with the concept elders/co-workers were representatives of God's government thus considered having "Spiritual Diplomatic Immunity".

leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Matthew 5:24

Here's a situation; you're an elder in a locality and there's a brother in your locality you refuse to speak to. This goes on for well over a year. The elder can go on taking the Lord's Table week after week, month after month, and year after year without needing to be reconciled to his brother.

What do you, as an attendee of the Church in _______ do when there's nothing in place to evaluate an elder or a co-worker?

Yes, what do you do when an elder refuses to reconcile and yet continues "offering at the altar"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

"Concerning the appointment and qualification of co-workers and elders, we can view this from two angles. On the one hand, we should follow the Scriptures. On the other hand, based on our long-term history, we know that some of our co-workers have been harmed because there has been no evaluation of their service.

I absolutely believe that if we had systematically evaluated the co-workers in Taiwan over the past thirty years, the co-workers would have been more fruitful than they are today. The same applies to the elders... In the Bible we cannot find any length of time for the service of an elder.

According to our understanding, it seems as if an elder should serve his whole life, like a justice on the Supreme Court. If an elder is constantly learning and making progress and is truly an elder among the saints, this is all right. But if one has been an elder for twenty or thirty years, and the church under his management is only mediocre, this proves that the time has come for him to voluntarily yield his position to someone who is younger but more qualified and experienced... In this way the churches can have a new beginning and a new hope." Witness Lee

I'm not sure why this was posted, and what was the intention in posting it, but at the time this was spoken, I think WL should have been paying more attention to the moral fiber of his own ministry, and the "character" of the one placed in charge of LSM, commonly known as "The Office."

This quote seems to be nothing more than justification for WL going back to Taipei and taking over, firing the existing elders and hiring 80 young ministry loyalists as new elders.

[Paul Cox]

Witness Lee's concept of bearing fruit is strictly the increase of head count, and nothing more. You are right, Ohio, Witness Lee should have been paying more attention to the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Even if he insisted that fruit was strictly numbers, then he should have looked inward for why the Lord's 'blessing' started to wane from the Living Stream Church. It had little to do with elders not learning enough over the decades and all to do with his own elevation to near deity while at the same time covering up gross immorality right in his own ministry office.

The problem with Witness Lee was that it was always somebody else's fault and not his. Reminds me of another Anointed One who occupies the highest office in our land.

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Witness Lee's concept of bearing fruit is strictly the increase of head count, and nothing more. You are right, Ohio, Witness Lee should have been paying more attention to the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Even if he insisted that fruit was strictly numbers, then he should have looked inward for why the Lord's 'blessing' started to wane from the Living Stream Church. It had little to do with elders not learning enough over the decades and all to do with his own elevation to near deity while at the same time covering up gross immorality right in his own ministry office.

The problem with Witness Lee was that it was always somebody else's fault and not his. Reminds me of another Anointed One who occupies the highest office in our land.

It bothers me when anyone bad mouths Br Lee. I have meet him several times during my year in Anaheim Calf. and there is no other man I have met in my life that was total given to God and the Church.I think if this person had ever met him he would agree... Br Lee and his life was total before God now how many of us could clam that. I you don't have a positive post about others in the Church or Christians, then you should not post here I only speak for my self but I think this post should be deleted because it is not what we are about.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It bothers me when anyone bad mouths Br Lee. I have meet him several times during my year in Anaheim Calf. and there is no other man I have met in my life that was total given to God and the Church.I think if this person had ever met him he would agree... Br Lee and his life was total before God now how many of us could clam that. I you don't have a positive post about others in the Church or Christians, then you should not post here I only speak for my self but I think this post should be deleted because it is not what we are about.

Dear Guest,

The sole reason I have ever "bad-mouthed" Lee or another minister is that they have hurt people. They have hurt God's children.

I realize you have met a sweet and personable man whom many have loved, including myself. But I loved other brothers too. Our love for Lee should not be greater than our love for others, since our love should be without partiality and without respect of persons.

Witness Lee hurt people in order to maintain his own pristine image. Had he not done that, using the power he once had for evil, then this forum would not exist.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dear Guest,

The sole reason I have ever "bad-mouthed" Lee or another minister is that they have hurt people. They have hurt God's children.

I realize you have met a sweet and personable man whom many have loved, including myself. But I loved other brothers too. Our love for Lee should not be greater than our love for others, since our love should be without partiality and without respect of persons.

Witness Lee hurt people in order to maintain his own pristine image. Had he not done that, using the power he once had for evil, then this forum would not exist.

Ohio,

Unreg was not addressing your love for Br Lee compared to other brothers. He/she was objecting to bad-mouthing Br. Lee.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It bothers me when anyone bad mouths Br Lee. I have meet him several times during my year in Anaheim Calf. and there is no other man I have met in my life that was total given to God and the Church.I think if this person had ever met him he would agree... Br Lee and his life was total before God now how many of us could clam that. I you don't have a positive post about others in the Church or Christians, then you should not post here I only speak for my self but I think this post should be deleted because it is not what we are about.

I met him, on several occasions. My personal, face to face encounters with him were in Irving, though I did meet him in Anaheim and Taipei as well. No doubt about it, he had the appearance of a godly man. However we all must make account for our actions. Daystar, the sister's rebellion, and the way in which the PL mess was handled were not the actions of a godly man. Had he made full confession and restitution I would agree that we should move on, but he didn't.

Likewise anyone who teaches the Bible is held to a higher standard and is put under a much bigger microscope. This is as it should be. As a result anything that he taught should be inspected and evaluated.

Finally, I "ate" lunch with PL once. This person did not have the slightest appearance of godliness, on the contrary he appeared fleshly and carnal. That does speak to WL as a father (the children are a testimony to the parents) and it speaks to his judgment since PL was running the business side of the LSM at the time.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not sure why this was posted, and what was the intention in posting it, but at the time this was spoken, I think WL should have been paying more attention to the moral fiber of his own ministry, and the "character" of the one placed in charge of LSM, commonly known as "The Office."

This quote seems to be nothing more than justification for WL going back to Taipei and taking over, firing the existing elders and hiring 80 young ministry loyalists as new elders.

Primarily in relation to a current event and secondly it's in contrast to the teaching of deputy authority.

Many may agree with you it's a time specific word trying to exhort longtime elders to step aside and let younger brothers take the lead. As it was older elders that were viewed as holding back the new way. Many on this forum would say the younger elders were "yes men". As they did not have the experience in life the older elders had.

However there's also been the slogan "the minister of the age". For the reader, if you believe Witness Lee was and is the minister of the age, how can you reject this word? If you have something in place to evaluate elders, I believe would provide policeman in localities so abuses as testified in Southern California would not transpire.

At least here locally as I have witnessed, elders tolerate "condemning all other Christians, and boasting in all their own riches" in prophesying meetings. If that doesn't require evaluating, that's not an environment I want to raise my children in.

[TLFisher]

Question for everyone's consideration, what approach should be taken when an elder is unable to remain impartial on a matter?

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Terry

Question for everyone's consideration, what approach should be taken when an elder is unable to remain impartial on a matter?

Is the elder directly or indirectly involved in the matter?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Is the elder directly or indirectly involved in the matter?

Directly involved or indirectly involved yet fully aware, but their word or their silence on the matter affects the outcome?

It could be something as general as which brother to bring in as a deacon or elder.
Or it could be something rare, specific, and serious as in Matthew 18:16.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Question for everyone's consideration, what approach should be taken when an elder is unable to remain impartial on a matter?

A judge, prosecutor or juror who is unable to remain impartial on a matter should be recused. What is the evidence that supports this assertion?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

Question for everyone's consideration, what approach should be taken when an elder is unable to remain impartial on a matter?

Terry my brother I believe your question is too ambiguous for anyone to give you a clear answer. This is why you are getting questions about your question. So unless you feel it hits too close to home, can you just come out and give us some details about the situation. No need to give any names or places, just a more specific explanation of the situation.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Terry my brother I believe your question is too ambiguous for anyone to give you a clear answer. This is why you are getting questions about your question. So unless you feel it hits too close to home, can you just come out and give us some details about the situation. No need to give any names or places, just a more specific explanation of the situation.

Unto, it was vaguely brought out in the previous post. Ok, I'll elaborate further.

A prior church I met with within the last 5 years, a brother I'm acquainted with became a deacon. Knowing the background of the family life, I wondered about the decision makin process. Was it due to satisfying the assembly's procedure in becoming a deacon or was it due being discipled directly by the assemblies' elder/pastor?

As for the Matthew 18:16 example, if you're an elder brought into the situation as a witness and either the offended or offender is a fellow elder, there could perceived conflict of interest in regard impartiality versus personal favoritism.

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.1 Timothy 5:21

Do you follow through as a witness or being aware of your own partiaity, you step aside in support of someone unbiased?