"Early Nee" vs. "Later Nee"

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

A very interesting side discussion began on the thread entitled "The Incompleteness of WL's Ministry". I certainly believe that this discussion merits a thread of its own. I will simply put forth the hypothesis that a close reading of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee reveals a discernable shift from the "early Nee" of the 1920's and 1930's to the "later Nee" of the late 1940's and early 1950's. May a profitable discussion concerning whether or not this hypothesis has any merit begin!

From UntoHim:

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Nevertheless, I will try to contain myself (just on this thread though )

Firstly, I think we should keep in mind who or what is the origin of this rather preposterous notion that any one man can have a "complete" ministry. For the purposes of our discussions, I think this notion could be traced directly to Watchman Nee.

From Ohio:

UntoHim, I really need some support from you to accept this thought. This is the opposite of my current understanding. Can you elaborate and support it?

Dear brother Ohio,

I believe that I can provide some support for what dear brother UntoHim has stated. I am fully aware that this is a very bitter pill to swallow, as WN is so highly regarded, both inside and outside the LC. I will do my best to "tread lightly"!

You are undoubtedly familiar with WN's famous message entitled "What Are We?" spoken in January of 1934. Much less familiar to most of us are two messages given by WN on April 12, 1948, entitled "God’s Work of Recovery (1)” and “God’s Work of Recovery (2)”. The first message is very much a late 1940’s version of “What Are We?” In fact this message, just like “What Are We?”, starts out by giving the history of “The Lord’s Recovery” from Martin Luther to the “present” day, mentioning all the intermediate stages that we are familiar with: the Mennonites, the early Baptists, Madame Guyon, Zinzendorf, Darby, the Keswick Convention, Jesse Penn-Lewis, TAS, etc. One big difference between “What Are We?” and the 1948 message is that "the present truth" being recovered has advanced from “Christ as Everything” in 1934 to “The Body Life” in 1948.

With this background in mind, please compare the following two sets of excerpts. Pay particular attention to WN’s shift in attitude on two fronts: Notice that he goes from stating in 1934 that “The Little Flock” in China is basically one move of the Lord among many other equals on the Earth, to the 1948 statement that “The Little Flock” is solely responsible for “The Lord’s Recovery”. Also notice that nowhere in the 1934 speaking is "the present truth" of "Christ as Everything" ever mentioned as being the final stage of recovery, whereas in the 1948 speaking "the present truth" of the Body life is seen as most likely being the “final stage” of recovery, with nothing more to be recovered.

From “What Are We?” in 1934:

“It was not until 1934 that we realized that the centrality of everything related to God is Christ. Christ is God’s centrality and God’s universality. All of God’s plan I related to Christ. This is the truth that God is pleased to reveal to us in these days. It is also the message that we preach during this conference. This is what God showed Brother Sparks also . . . One elderly pastor, Dr. F. B. Meyer, also saw this matter . . . We need to humble and prostrate ourselves, and to deny ourselves . . . Thank God that we can know God’s “present truth” . . . Today, this testimony can be found in America, England, France, Spain, Africa, and everywhere.”

From “God’ Work of Recovery (1)” in 1948:

“Today all the responsibility of the recovery is on our shoulders. All the questions related to the recovery have to do with us. God’s work in the world, and in China in particular, depends entirely on us. The responsibility has fallen on us . . . With each step that the Lord has taken in His recovery, the content of His recovery has become richer and richer. Today it seems as if there is nothing more to be recovered. The recovery has reached the stage of the Body. Perhaps this will be the last recovery. There may be other items of recovery, but as far as we know, when we reach the recovery of the coordination of the Body and the manifestation of authority, we have reached the final recovery.”

[Ohio]

“Today all the responsibility of the recovery is on our shoulders. All the questions related to the recovery have to do with us. God’s work in the world, and in China in particular, depends entirely on us. The responsibility has fallen on us . . . With each step that the Lord has taken in His recovery, the content of His recovery has become richer and richer. Today it seems as if there is nothing more to be recovered. The recovery has reached the stage of the Body. Perhaps this will be the last recovery. There may be other items of recovery, but as far as we know, when we reach the recovery of the coordination of the Body and the manifestation of authority, we have reached the final recovery."

This phrase in quotes sounds nothing like WN. In fact, the part bolded just about encapsulates the whole ministry of the BB's today. I suppose that's why I throw question marks at the whole translation, but maybe I'm just wishing here. Are you sure WL didn't write this?

"All the questions related to the recovery have to do with us.Nothing more to be recovered?" Does that sound like WN or any minister of the word, for that matter? With the end of WWII, the Communists breathing down their necks, and many saints facing potential martyrdom, who would say such things? I would think their entire burden for ministry would be for preaching the gospel and caring for and encouraging the the suffering saints.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This phrase in quotes sounds nothing like WN. In fact, the part bolded just about encapsulates the whole ministry of the BB's today. I suppose that's why I throw question marks at the whole translation, but maybe I'm just wishing here. Are you sure WL didn't write this?

"All the questions related to the recovery have to do with us.Nothing more to be recovered?" Does that sound like WN or any minister of the word, for that matter? With the end of WWII, the Communists breathing down their necks, and many saints facing potential martyrdom, who would say such things? I would think their entire burden for ministry would be for preaching the gospel and caring for and encouraging the the suffering saints.

Amen, dear brother Ohio. That quote came from page 60 of Volume 57 of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, published by LSM. It could be a bad translation - I am not sure. Either this is a bad translation or "early Nee" really did go through a change to become "later Nee". I just don't know what to think at this point in time without more information. I am confused.

Dear brother testing123 exhorted me a while ago to purchase a copy of The Completed Works of Watchman Nee (CD Version) from Christian Fellowship Publishers. If this particular message can be found on CPF's CD version, I will be very curious to see how Stephen Kaung translated this portion. WL was present at all the meetings mentioned in this volume 57, so I am not sure if he had influence over the translation for the LSM version.

[YP0534]

FYI - From the CFP Complete Works CD:

Today’s Responsibility of Recovery Is upon Us

The responsibility of recovery is today upon us. The issue of recovery is also upon us. How much God will do in China, nay, in the world, rests upon our shoulders. The responsibility is ours. We need to see that there is but one life in the body of Christ. And after seeing this, we shall also see the need of coordination. Indeed, the problem of brothers and sisters falls upon us. If each of us is not the right kind of person, how can we preach the right kind of gospel?The gospel does not merely cause people to be delivered from sin, the world and self; it even enables us to be liberated from individualism, wealth and everything else so that we may enter into the reality of the body.

The Lord’s recovery proceeds step by step. It has advanced so much that today there seems to be nothing more to be recovered. In fact, the extent of recovery has in our day already reached to the recovery of the body. This may be the last stage of recovery, though no one can say for certain. But so far as we know, the coordination of the body and the manifestation of authority seem to be the last areas of recovery.

Watchman Nee - Revive Thy Work, pp. 59-60

[kisstheson]

Dear brother YP0534,

Thank you so much for providing the CFP translation by Stephen Kaung. I have to admit that the translation of this particular excerpt does not differ in any significant way from the LSM translation.

Dear brother Ohio,

I know this is a bitter pill to swallow. I agree with the questions you put forth in your previous post. This excerpt form 1948 most definitely does NOT sound like WN. And yet it now appears to really be his speaking.

In the past, both you and I have used the analogy of a house of cards collapsing. It appears that we do not realize just how far-reaching this collapse would be! If you have time, please compare the "What Are We?" message spoken in 1934 with the "God's Work of Recovery (1)" message spoken in 1948, and compare The Normal Christian Church Life (1938) with Church Affairs (1948). I think you will be led to see that there was something different about WN's speaking when he resumed his ministry in 1948 compared to his speaking before he laid aside his ministry in 1942.

I grieve with you, dear brother Ohio. I wish these things were not so. :verysad:

May God be merciful to us all.

[YP0534]

I'm burdened to say it again.

"Universal Church"

I think brothers Nee and Lee ultimately shared very similar, even nearly identical, interpretations of what the "Universal Church" should be.

The fundamental error, and the reason rooting it out seems so elusive, is that "Universal Church" itself is the problem.

We just don't need a better version of that, no matter who gives it or how good it is.

Whenever anyone undertakes to make one of those, they plant the seed of another division.

I believe this is a law of nature, so to speak.

[Oliver]

This is a very interesting thread. And a long one. I must confess that I did not read every one of the posts, but I did read enough to appreciate being reminded of the frailty of man, and not to idolize even the greatest of spiritual men whom the Lord has used to lead His people out of bondage into God’s eternal purpose.

Like all of you, I’m sure, I remember fondly of the day when glory broke upon me as I opened my first book by Watchman Nee, and another, then another…. O, the feeling of rapture! Heaven has never been so near….

In no time, Watchman Nee’s books were all I’d read and devour. Undeniably I, like you all, have benefited greatly from Nee’s ministry; I thank the Lord for using Bro. Nee to open up the mysteries of God’s heart’s desire hidden in His word and usher in a paradigm change in my pursuit of Christ. I remember too, the excitement upon seeing the Church for the first time as the Lord sees her – the heavenly bride of Christ. From that point on, there was a slow and subtle shift in my focus away from the Lord Himself to the bride - the Church, then naturally to the local assembly, a people with whom I could practically relate.

It is never blatantly obvious – the shift in our focus. If anybody had told me so, I would have vehemently denied. Who, me? Never! I’m in love with Jesus.

It wasn’t until 16 years later, after the Lord engineered a gut-wrenching exodus from the LC for my dear wife and I, that it dawned on me how seriously and dangerously we have strayed away from the Person of Christ. Sure, I can blame W. Lee and the Local Church for our demise, and it would have been true to a large extent. I should also lay the blame squarely on myself for willingly following Lee’s bad teachings, and it would have been very true too. But Watchman Nee? Never in a million years would I have imagined this man of God to be fallible and subject to error like the rest of us.

Deeply ashamed and repentant, I asked the Lord to restore the years that I’ve allowed the locusts and the cankerworms to consume. Once my relationship with the Lord was restored (and restoring), the Watchman Nee’s books did not read the same any more. I remember vividly reading Nee’s “Revive Thy years” which was given to us by a dear brother. Cold chills kept running down my spine. I had to keep flipping back to the cover to see if it was Lee and not Nee whose name appeared on the front cover. My 16 years in the LC flashed back to haunt me as I read the book….

That same year, 1997 (?) I sat at lunch during a Richmond Family conference. I had an opportunity to tell Bro. Stephen Kaung of my horrifying experience while reading “Revive Thy years” by W. Nee, and to ask him why he even published such a book. He smiled understandingly and sympathetically as I related my experience. His answer was that he felt the need to be truthful to both the writer and the Christian public to put out all of Bro. Nee’s books and not just hide the bad and put out the good, and let the Christian public be the judge….

I think many of you would agree that the more we intimate and endear the Person of Christ, the more we’d find ourselves disagreeing with some teachings or comments by Watchman Nee. It’s not an indictment on Bro. Nee’s ministry. It’s just part of the process of knowing God personally and intimately. Discernment comes with spiritual maturity.

KissTheSon mentioned a “What Are We?” paper by W. Nee in 1934 which contrasted sharply with a later claim by Nee in 1948. Interestingly, there was a conference by the Richmond brothers in 1993 (94?) on “Who Are We?” A couple of brothers and I from a fellowship in Houston attended the conference. I remember seeing old Bro. Stephen quoting John 1:19-23. The priests and Levites from Jerusalem asked John the Baptist, “Who are you?” Stephen says we also need to ask ourselves this question from time to time. And like John the Baptist, our only answer should be, “We are not.”

He delved into the early years of the work in China with apparent move and blessing of the Holy Spirit, then he said the Lord used the up-rising of the Communists to chasten the saints. With tears rolling and voice breaking he said, “because we have become proud….” Again, he repeated, “we have become proud!” Now if you know Stephen, you’d know that he is ever the lowly and humble person. I can’t say that Stephen became proud even in the height of the move of the Lord in China, but it’s not hard to discern Nee has indeed become proud. And I submit that it is the awful and ugly sin of pride that marked the difference between the “early Nee” vs. the “later Nee” that you brothers have clearly discerned in this thread.

Make no mistake, each of us is as capable, if not more, of becoming proud. We just haven’t been given the opportunity, that’s all. How we need the Lord’s mercy on this. How we need the work of the cross to keep us lowly. I am just as capable of doing what W. Lee did, if given the opportunity.

My prayer is that we’d be confronted with the question every now and then, “Who are you?” And may we truly come to the realization that we are not. May we all learn from our painful past mistakes of majoring on the church and minoring on Christ, and turn back to Him and Him alone. If our focus is the church we’ll lose sight of Christ; if we focus on Him we’ll gain both Christ and the church. Guaranteed.

Blessings to all.

Oliver
www.TheClosedDoor.com
The Way to an Open Door is Through a Closed Door.

[Paul Cox]

Hi Oliver,

Welcome! I really enjoyed your post. Oh, may the Lord have mercy on all of us. As you say, it is indeed subtle, but before you know it we looked up and there before our eyes stood two "perfect" men (Nee & Lee) whose teaching were never to be questioned...not ever. Of course, this was only the image that had been carved for us, and we fell for it.

I remember reading Nee and Lee when I was in the Local Church. It was as if I was reading the very Word of God. On a level that I was not aware of I had made the words of Lee and Nee equal to God's own breathed Scripture.

Now I am reading the Genesis Life-studies with my wife daily. In a strange way it is so refreshing to see all the holes, contradictions and hypocrisies. It's such an awful burden always having to wink at obvious falsehoods, contradictions and hypocrisies.

I think slowly the false images of Nee and Lee are topling over, much like that statue of Sadam Hussein in Bagdad. BTW, did you notice when it broke open near the base...it was hollow, and the one it glorified was hiding somewhere in a "spider hole." Now there is a god brought to nothing.

We got much help from the writings of Watchman Nee, and still do. We also got much help from the ministry of Witness Lee. In some ways I believe we did. But the image of the "man for the age," who is never to be questioned, has to be destroyed.

Roger